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Around SBN: Notre Dame's Turnaround: How Have The Irish Done It?

Introduction to the Great Debate: Part Two - A Playoff Proposal

Welcome back to the Great Debate and Part Two of Billyzane's introduction to the issues at stake. If you missed Part One yesterday, be sure to read that as background, and take time to read through the nearly 70 comments on the story. All well worth your time and thought.

Today's entry is BZ's proposal for postseason play, which he outlines in great detail, and applies to recent history to assess its viability. Enjoy.

The Flex Playoff System

As I said previously, on a pure resume-ranking analytical level, there is nothing wrong with the old bowl system.  You play 12-14 games and then we rank you on what you did.  Simple as that.  But for reasons that go beyond that and delve into what we want the system to mean or represent, that's not good enough.  First of all, I want there to be a college football showcase - an EVENT - that we can all point to as the "system."  I imagine that TV stations will never allow college football to go back to a million games on January 1 (the "event" that the old bowl system had) because it cuts into the viewership of each individual game.  Additionally, it can be argued effectively that there is not always enough of a sample size to determine (even based on pure resume-ranking) the best team in any given year without them playing each other.  Some years there is enough information from the regular season (2001 Miami comes to mind), but most years there is not (2005 Texas and USC comes to mind).  Fleshing out "Underlying Problem #2," we don't want our system to end with confusion over who the true national champion is - see Predicate Assumption, above (this is a debatable assumption, one that BrooklynHorn has at least questioned in the past, but this whole conversation is pointless if we don't care about there being a single "national champion").

So there must be some way to reconcile these two underlying problems and develop a postseason system that is the most ideal solution to both underlying problems. Essentially, our primary goal should to design a system that crowns a "national champion" that is the most deserving based on our notion of what that means, while at the same time (though not to the detriment of the primary goal) designing the system that we want to be representative of college football.  Based on my views regarding these "Underlying Problems" with the issue of how we determine a national champion, I have a proposal for the most ideal system for doing just that.  I call it the "Flex System."

Star-divide


The basic idea is that in different years the regular season results lead to differing numbers of "legitimate contenders" for the national championship.  Some years, notably 2005 with USC and Texas, there are two.  Some years there are three.  Some years there are four.  Because we are resume-ranking, "legitimate contenders" for the national championship must have fewer than 2 losses.  That's the primary rule and I'm not backing down on it (with two notable but I believe ultimately defensible and necessary exceptions).

[Please Note: I will refer constantly to the "BCS rankings" and "BCS bowls" in this proposal.  By that I do not necessarily mean the BCS in its current incarnation.  I mean some objective method (determined prior to the season, not by an ad hoc committee after the regular season) of ranking the teams.  I personally like the combination of computers and humans - though I would prefer it if the computers could take into account margin of victory (up to a certain threshold - say 21 points) and the humans weren't such idiots.  Improvements in that direction would be welcome.]

This is the outline of the system: there are 5 BCS bowls, the 4 big ones and a "national championship" game (basically just as it is now).  All 6 BCS conference champions get in to one of these 5 bowls, just as it is now.  The twist comes in that some years there will be 2 semi-final games (both BCS games) leading up to the championship game (basically, a four-team playoff).  Some years there will be 1 semifinal game leading up to the championship game against a team with a bye to the championship game (a three-team playoff).  Some years there will be no semifinal games at all (a two-team playoff).  There is only one possible way that a BCS conference champion will not get into a BCS game: if there is a 4-team playoff and 3 of those 4 teams are not BCS conference champions, as that would leave 5 BCS teams with only 2 games.  This is of course highly, highly unlikely.  But in the event it happens, the team left out could still receive its BCS cut of the money in addition to its cut from the bowl game it does play in.  It sucks, but really, how often is this going to happen? Alternatively, a sixth BCS Bowl could be added to ensure that this never occurs [the Cotton Bowl springs to mind as the ideal candidate if Dallas could ever get their shit together and adequately renovate the stadium].

So in a year with a 4-team playoff, there will be 2 at-large teams in the BCS - either in the playoff or in the regular BCS games (though note, that there could be 3 at-large teams if that many make the playoff, as mentioned above).  With a 3-team playoff, there will be 3 at-large teams.  With a 2-team playoff, there will be 4 at-large teams.  I am not concerned with how the at-large teams are determined for the non-playoff BCS spots at this time.  It can remain as it is now for all I care.

So here are the rules as to how we determine which type of tournament we will use in any given year:

Multiple undefeated teams
a.    If #1 and #2 in the BCS standings are undefeated and there are no other undefeated teams in the top 5 of the BCS standings, then there will be a two-team playoff between #1 and #2.
b.    If there are 3 undefeated teams in the top 5 of the BCS standings, then all undefeated teams will be in a 4-team playoff with the highest ranked 1-loss team.  Seeding is made according to BCS ranking.
c.    If there are 4 undefeated teams in the top 5 of the BCS standings, all undefeated teams will be in a 4-team tournament with seeding made by BCS ranking.
d.    If there are 5 undefeated teams in the top 5 of the BCS standings, then the top 4 are in a 4-team playoff with seeding made by BCS ranking.
e.    If there are 2 undefeated teams in the top 5 of the BCS standings, but they are not ranked #1 and #2, then the undefeated #1 team (if there is one) will be treated as undefeated, but the team(s) that is/are not ranked #1 will be treated as a "Top 4" 1-loss team according to the paragraphs below.

[Notes: This is mostly straightforward.  I used the "top 5" arbitrarily.  It could legitimately be 4, 6 or maybe even 7.  The goal is to catch mid-major undefeated teams that have played a tough enough schedule to warrant inclusion with the big boys (i.e. Utah in 2004 and BSU in 2006), but exclude those that didn't (i.e. BSU in 2004).  Whatever the number is though, voters would likely put the undefeated team high enough to reach that number if they believe them deserving.  Paragraph (d) sucks, but really, when is that ever going to happen? Paragraph (e) exists on the assumption that if an undefeated team is ranked behind 1-loss teams, it is a mid-major undefeated that is on par with a 1-loss major program and does not deserve to automatically be put in a 2-team playoff game under paragraph (a).  See "additional hypothetical," below.]

One undefeated team
f.    If the only undefeated team in the top 5 of the BCS standings is not ranked #1, then it will be treated like a "Top 4" 1-loss team under paragraphs (k) through (n) below.
g.    If the only undefeated team in the top 5 of the BCS standings is ranked #1, and there is only one 1-loss team in the top 4 of the BCS standings, then those two teams will advance to the national championship game in a 2-game playoff.
h.    If the only undefeated team in the top 5 of the BCS standings is ranked #1, and there are two 1-loss teams in the top 4 of the BCS standings, then the undefeated team will receive a bye into the national championship game and the top two 1-loss teams will play for the right to go to the national championship game in a 3-team playoff.
i.    If the only undefeated team in the top 5 of the BCS standings is ranked #1, and there are three (or more - see paragraph (e)) 1-loss teams in the top 4 of the BCS standings, then there will be a 4-team playoff.  Seeding will be made according to BCS ranking except where an undefeated team being treated as a 1-loss team under paragraph (e) would not be included, in which case that team is seeded #4 and the #4 team in the standings is excluded.
j.    If the only undefeated team in the top 5 of the BCS standings is ranked #1, and there are no 1-loss teams in the top 4 of the BCS standings, then the "national championship game" will be played between the top two teams in the BCS standings but the winner will not automatically be crowned "national champion."  A final poll will be taken after the bowl games to determine the national champion.

[Notes: The reason for (g), (h), and (j) is that a 2-loss team does not deserve to be automatically named national champion based on a victory over an undefeated team.  Thus in (g), the sole 1-loss team advances automatically to the national championship game.  In (h), there is not a 4-team playoff because the 2-loss team ranked #4 shouldn't be in the national championship conversation when there are also two 1-loss teams and an undefeated team.  In (j), it is debatable whether the 2-loss team that won the "national championship game" against the previously undefeated team is more deserving of the national championship than the 1-loss team that lost that game.  So a poll is taken.  But this will rarely if ever happen.  Paragraph (f) exists on the assumption that if the only undefeated team is not ranked #1, it is a mid-major undefeated that is on par with a 1-loss major program and it doesn't deserve an bye into the national championship game any more than the non-undefeated #1 team.]

No undefeated teams
k.    If there is one 1-loss team in the top 4 of the BCS standings and no undefeated teams in the top 5, then the 1-loss team will play the highest ranked team other than itself in the national championship game.
l.    If there are two 1-loss teams in the top 4 of the BCS standings and no undefeated teams in the top 5, then those two teams will play a 2-team playoff in the national championship game.
m.    If there are three 1-loss teams in the top 4 of the BCS standings and no undefeated teams in the top 5, then the top 4 teams in the BCS standings will play a 4-team tournament.  The team with more than 1 loss will be seeded #4 and the three 1-loss teams will be seeded based on BCS rankings.
n.    If there are four (or more - see paragraphs (e) and (f)) 1-loss teams in the top 4 of the BCS standings and no undefeated teams in the top 5, then there will be a 4-team tournament.  Seeding will be made by BCS rankings except where an undefeated team being treated as a 1-loss team under paragraph (e) or (f) would not be included, in which case that team is seeded #4 and the #4 team in the standings is excluded.

[Notes: Paragraphs (k) and (m) are the notable exceptions where a 2-loss team is allowed into the playoff and can be named the national champion if it wins.  This is defensible because the end result is unlike in paragraph (j) where at the end of the day, there is still a team with a better record than the 2-loss "winner."  All the teams will have the same record, with one team having beat the others.  I hate this, but I think it's necessary.]

The Flex System Applied to All BCS Years

[I realize that looking at these years in retrospect is a bit of a fool's errand because the formulas varied over time and in my ideal system the formula would probably change some more.  But the goal of this exercise is to show how well this system would mitigate the complaints that teams and college football fans generally had in each and every year, while still being the most ideal system for determining the national champion according to what we want the national champion to be and what we want the national championship system to mean, or represent.]

1998  A four-team playoff according to paragraph (i) above.  Undefeated #1 Tennessee plays 1-loss #4 Ohio St. and 1-loss teams #2 Florida St. and #3 Kansas St. play each other.  Possible complaints: UCLA and Arizona, both 1-loss teams.  Response: look, we can't let every 1-loss team in.  It will get too big.  The other 3 are lucky they got in.  Next time don't lose a game. Other Notes: this will mitigate the complaint of KSU, whose sole loss happened to come at the end of the year and was thus bumped down to the Alamo Bowl.

1999 Undefeated #1 Florida State plays undefeated #2 Virginia Tech in the national championship game, under paragraph (a).  Complaints: no one.  Nebraska played a tougher schedule than VT but lost to Texas, which wasn't that good in `99 (woohoo Texas!).

2000 A four-team playoff according to paragraph (i) above.  Undefeated #1 Oklahoma plays 1-loss #4 Washington and 1-loss teams #2 Florida St. and #3 Miami play each other. Complaints: Virginia Tech, and Oregon State, both 1-loss teams.  Response: see 1998.  Other notes: this would solve the main complaint from this year which is that FSU's only loss was to Miami whose only loss was to Washington, who only lost once as well.  Well, here you go.  Merry Christmas.

2001 A three-team playoff according to paragraph (h).  Undefeated #1 Miami gets a bye into the national championship game.  One-loss #2 Nebraska plays one-loss #4 Oregon for the right to play Miami in the national championship game.  Complaints: #3 Colorado.  Response: You lose TWICE!  Once to Colorado State!  The other time by THIRTY-FOUR POINTS to Texas!  Shut the hell up.  Other Notes: In all honesty, Miami was the only real team this year.  But Oregon's legitimate complaint that it wasn't in the national championship game over Big XII North runner-up Nebraska is rectified.

2002 Undefeated #1 Miami plays undefeated #2 Ohio State in the national championship game, under paragraph (a).  Complaints: no one.  Georgia and Iowa were 1-loss teams in the top 5, but they have no legitimate complaints.  Georgia lost to 8-5 Florida and Iowa lost to Iowa State and then USC in their bowl game so screw them.

2003 Paragraph (m) applies in this 4-team playoff.  One-loss #1 Oklahoma vs. two-loss #4 Michigan and one-loss #2 LSU vs. one-loss #3 USC.  Complaints: A million other 2-loss teams.  Response: Screw you.  Lose less than twice next time.  Other notes: In retrospect, USC vs. LSU should have been the national championship game.  And with the BCS formula changes made after this year, that may have happened with USC ranked #1 in the BCS, playing Michigan in, I don't know, let's say the Rose Bowl and then playing LSU after LSU beats OU in, I don't know, let's say the Sugar Bowl.  That would've been nice, right?

2004 Two words: Giant Clusterfuck.  There were 5 undefeated teams this year.  Anyway, under the rules above, paragraph (b) applies in a 4-team playoff. Undefeated #1 USC plays one-loss #4 Texas and undefeated #2 Oklahoma plays undefeated #3 Auburn.  Complaints: #6 Utah, #9 Boise State, and #5 Cal.  Cal's complaint is that they were barely edged out for #4 by Texas.  Yeah, yeah, we know.  Texas Tech anyone?  Boise State was weak that year.  It wasn't the same as 2006.  They played no one.  Utah was another story.  They could play with the big boys.  As I wrote in my notes to paragraphs (a) - (e) above, the "top 5" criterion is completely arbitrary.  Top 6 is equally credible, though I would argue that Top 8 is too much because it would include teams like BSU circa 2004.  If you extend the criterion to "top 6" then replace Texas with Utah.  Totally reasonable, and perhaps even preferable, as sad as that is to say as a Texas fan.

2005 Undefeated #1 USC plays undefeated #2 Texas in the greatest national championship game ever, under paragraph (a).  Complaints: no one.  Other Notes: This is where a playoff would destroy everything I hold dear about college football.  The regular season CLEARLY separated these two teams from the rest of the field and if we have to play superfluous playoff games to get this game (or god forbid, an upset occurs and this game never happens), then what's the point of the regular season?  p.s.. I Heart VY.

2006 A three-team playoff according to paragraph (h).  Undefeated #1 Ohio State gets a bye into the national championship game.  One-loss #2 Florida plays one-loss #3 Michigan for the right to play OSU in the national championship game.  Complaints:  #8 Boise State.  Response:  I think "top 8" is too big a spread for inclusion of undefeated teams, and top 7 is borderline.  Top 6 is reasonable as is top 5.  But whatever the threshold is, I'm convinced that if voters think a team deserves to be in the playoff, they'll put that team where it need to be to get there.

Additional Hypothetical: Paragraphs (e) and (i) need explaining because they are confusing.  Say the BCS rankings look like this:

#1: Team A: 0 losses
#2: Team B: 1 loss
#3: Team C: 1 loss
#4: Team D: 1 loss
#5: Team E: 0 losses

 There are 2 undefeated teams so we look at paragraph (a), but we shouldn't have a 2-team playoff between A and E because if E is undefeated and ranked that low, it's more like one of the 1-loss teams than A.  There should be a bigger playoff than just 2 teams.  So E is treated like one of the "Top 4" 1-loss teams under paragraph (e).  Now we only have one undefeated team so we look at paragraph (i).  There is a 4-team playoff, but we effectively have one undefeated and four "top 4" 1-loss teams.  By virtue of being undefeated and in the Top 5, E gets in, seeded #4.  This means that D is left out.  This is reasonable, I believe.  Most people would say that an undefeated #5 deserves to get in more than a 1-loss #4, but not necessarily over a 1-loss #2.

A few notes on criticisms of the Flex System

I've brought this system up before (though not in such excruciating detail) on this site, and there were people who shot it down for various reasons (i.e. "Flexable playoff = horrible idea" - Thanks Wells!).  I'll attempt to head off those criticisms by addressing them here.

First, there was the criticism that the TV stations wouldn't like it because there wasn't enough certainty about how many games there would be, etc.  Let me make this clear: there is the same number of Bowl games and BCS games every year.  The only difference is whether the winner of one or 2 of those games goes on to play in another.  And remember, if you have an 8-team playoff, you're effectively replacing the BCS games with the playoff and if you have a 16-team playoff, you probably need to scrap the whole Bowl System altogether.  Maybe the TV stations would be more excited about those than what we have now.  But they certainly wouldn't be LESS excited about the flex system than they are now.  And should we really design our system for determining the national champion based on what TV stations think?  Isn't catering to them how we got Rule 3-2-5(e)?

Second, and heavily related to the first, is that the Bowls themselves wouldn't like the system because it was too uncertain.  This is a minor concern, in my opinion.  First, Bowls don't have to sign on to the new system if they don't want to.  They didn't have to sign onto the BCS contract, and the Rose Bowl considered not doing it because they wanted to preserve the Pac-10/Big-10 bowl tie-ins.  But of course, all that would have accomplished was leaving them outside of the big money games.  Bowls will sign on for that reason.  There can be a rotation of which bowls get the play-in games depending on who has the championship game.  Something will get worked out and the Bowls will sign on.

Third, the flexible system will encourage more cupcake scheduling.  Well, it will not encourage MORE cupcake scheduling, and may encourage even less since you're more likely to get in with 1 loss than you are now, but I understand the idea.  A large playoff will probably encourage harder scheduling, generally speaking (though not as much as people think since seeding is based on regular season results).  And while I agree that harder scheduling is something that should be strived for, I think that's a secondary consideration in relation to making sure the "best" team is made national champion.  (My notion of "best" is based on a resume ranker's perspective, of course.)  There has to be some balancing.  Hence, the Flex System.  Additionally, with a large playoff system, while you would probably get stronger OOC scheduling, your interest in the results of those games is lessened because you can still get into the large playoff with 2 or even 3 losses.

Fourth, yes, it's a complicated system.  It's not actually as complicated as it looks because, as you can see in its application to all the BCS years so far, it usually boils down to 3 or 4 different circumstances.  The complexity is merely a result of there being exigencies that have to be accounted for, no matter how unlikely they are to occur.  And yes, I'm familiar with Occam's Razor.  But I am aiming at very specific goals here and I think that if you just go with the most simplistic system, you're completely ignoring the underlying problems in the debate over the best postseason system and, in turn, doing a disservice to college football.  So I chose something more complicated.  We've got a pretty simple system right now as it is (#1 vs. #2 = MNC), but that's not exactly working out how you want it to, is it?  Complicated does not equal bad and simplistic does not equal good, just as the simplest argument isn't always the most convincing argument.

Thoughts, insults, profanities aimed in my direction for putting you through such excruciating minutiae?  I want it all.

--BZ--

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Liked it more
than I thought I would.  I don't mind the flex scheduling.  And I think "Most years" you would have 4 teams, a couple of which have 1-loss, which I think is some inclusion.  And the years that you don't, are years where the top two are clear (ie last year).  And everyone is OK with that.

All in all, at least at first glance, I am pretty happy with it.  I would be much happier than we are now with the BCS.

Personally, I would like to have more teams involved, but after reading all points yesterday, I agree with them that the level of inclusion is simply a matter of taste.  

I will await other comments/insights to spark discussion and am looking forward to it.  However, I am off to the Tx State HS swim meet today, so probably will just be periodically reading.

"A lot of people look for the easy way to do anything, in swimming there is no easy way." - Eddie Reese

by SwimTexas on Feb 15, 2007 9:40 AM CST reply actions  

Why complicated is bad
As a computer scientist, I can follow the selection and pairing algorithms, but I dare say to most fans they will appear to be even more occult than the BCS ratings themselves. They may be fair, but to most people they will appear to be arbitrary and incomprehensible. It will be worse than the NFL wildcard selection process. Someone will have to explain to angry fans that even though their team is near the top of the polls, this year we are inviting only six teams to the playoffs and you came in seventh, so you're out.

A big part of the fun of the sport is seeing your team strive to reach the championship, and we like to calculate who we need to beat and who else needs to lose so our team will make it through. The flex system destroys that aspect of the game.
 

by Caradoc on Feb 15, 2007 10:54 AM CST reply actions  

This is all true
Although I think the desire to make sure that the "best" team (whatever you think that my mean) is most often crowned national champion should be the most important goal in determining a system for crowning that national champion, I understand the complaint about complexity.

First, I'd like to lament the fact that too often there is a kneejerk reaction against anything complex because of a desire to avoid thinking about nuance.  Nuance is the gray area in the black and white world that (in my opinion) too many people envision.  The answer is "obvious" to many people because they refuse to consider the nuance, or gray area, in whatever issue is before them.  The average person can in fact understand this if they just take the time to try.

That being said, there is potentially a real issue with the last thing you said about a team not knowing what it has to do to reach the championship.  I think this consideration is secondary to my primary goal (stated in the first paragraph above), but it's not insignificant.  I would argue that my system doesn't make that uncertainty any more pronounced.  It might be slightly more complicated, but it's not by any means indecipherable.  It wouldn't be that hard to figure out who you want to win/lose, etc.

by billyzane on Feb 15, 2007 11:10 AM CST up reply actions  

i meant it to be
it's aimed at people who have the capacity to think critically but choose not to.  i personally think those people are worthy of condescension.  but that's just me.  i'm sort of a ass like that.

by billyzane on Feb 15, 2007 11:47 AM CST up reply actions  

i feel the same way
about people who don't like The Beatles or Wilco or think Crash deserved the Best Picture Oscar last year.

by Jason Mayer on Feb 15, 2007 11:50 AM CST up reply actions  

Crash
Thought it was an okay movie, but an atrocious choice for Best Picture.

I'll never understand that one.

I'm -certainly- not an Oscar nerd, but that kind of thing just blows the mind.

--PB--

by Peter Bean on Feb 15, 2007 11:54 AM CST up reply actions  

crash
Talk about not displaying any nuance.  Anyway, not to hijack the thread, but Babel is very similar, although not as manipulative.

And just what is an Oscar nerd? (For fear of being one myself.)

by Jason Mayer on Feb 15, 2007 12:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Seriously
When was the last time the oscar actually wnet to a good film?

by BrooklynHorn on Feb 15, 2007 12:15 PM CST up reply actions  

true
Best picture has had a run of bad films lately, but i would argue that million dollar baby and a beautful mind were at least good.  Not the best of that year, of course, but good.

And from 1987 (Platoon) to 2000 (American Beauty), only The English Patient sticks out as unworthy.  I find the screenplay awards to generally be the best arbiters of the best films.  But there are always exceptions.

by Jason Mayer on Feb 15, 2007 12:25 PM CST up reply actions  

What about Titanic over LA Confidential?
That was one of the worst picks ever. Thousands of crazed 12 year old girls go to see DiCrappio multiple times and it suddenly becomes Oscar worthy.

Crash didn't do much for me. That year I enjoyed Y Tu Mama Tabien the most.

Cats and dogs sleeping together.

by EYESofBEVO on Feb 15, 2007 1:15 PM CST up reply actions  

the point
Y'all are missing the point.  I didn't say Titanic was better than LA Confidential (or Good Will Hunting for that matter), but it is still an excellent movie and deserving of the honor.  Much like Shakespeare in Love over Saving Private Ryan.

Plus, why so down on DiCaprio?  He's easily one of the 3 best actors going right now.

And Y Tu Mama Tambien is a great movie, but it came out in 2002.

by Jason Mayer on Feb 15, 2007 2:04 PM CST up reply actions  

{holding a gun to the window}
In a bitter twist of irony, he hijacks the thread back from the hijackers...

by Shake on Feb 15, 2007 2:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Not at all
Simplicity always evolves toward complexity.  Its basic evolutionary theory  

There was a book put out last year called "everyhting that's bad is good for you" that argues that the advent of more complex media is raising the IQ of the American public.  The principle contention is that we used to watch reasonably formulaic 3-act episodes of "My Three Sons" and played a very linear version of Pac-Man.  Now, the average person has no trouble following the mulitiple changing storylines and technological plotpoints contained in a typical epsode of CSI, nor does he have trouble telling Laura Croft what to do in a 3-dimensional world, despite having been given no instructions.  These are realities that executives in the media industry would not have acknowledged a generation ago.  "Keep it simple," they'd say, "Americans are too dumb for that."  

Complexity is not a bad thing, but it will require some time for people to adjust.  I'd say the complexity of the BCS was a nice intermediate step.

by BrooklynHorn on Feb 15, 2007 12:28 PM CST up reply actions  

"Brain Candy"
good article.........Thanks............
Just Remember, No Matter What Happens, ou SUCKS.

by ouALWAYSsux on Feb 15, 2007 1:17 PM CST up reply actions  

I have to dissagree with you Caradoc
When I was reading his description of the flex system, I was thinking it would have fan bases more involved in more games at the end of the regular season because not only do you have to root for your team, but you are watching multiple games that will dictate if your team has made it into the flex-playoff.  Although a little complicated, it is not much different than the BCS, and fan bases have little problem deciphering that.

by Wells on Feb 15, 2007 1:35 PM CST up reply actions  

I like complicated
Me, I like things that are complicated. Hell, I even like the NFL wildcard system. But I would venture that a big reason many fans hate the BCS and hate the computer ratings is that they involve more math than they care to deal with.

I don't see how a flex system would keep more teams in contention. Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems to me that an 'at large' system would do better.

by Caradoc on Feb 15, 2007 4:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Ambivalent
but don't misinterpret that as dismissive, as you clearly invested a lot of time into this.

I don't have any serious problems with your setup but it doesn't inspire a "Eureka" moment in me, either. It replaces one nuanced system that seeks to answer a question I find increasingly irrelevant for a complicated, nuanced system that seeks to answer that same question and that frequently fails to add any additional layers. Retroactively it would appear to resolve the nagging complaints or semi-legitimate claims of non-Champions towards Championship. But fundamentally it doesn't change the nature of the sport or attitude of the participants; I think it is exclusive enough to still grant legitimate complaint from teams who don't get to participate. Your insistence that 2-loss teams don't actually have a legitimate shot at a national championship will be ignored by those 2-loss teams, and perhaps by the CFB viewing community at large. I can still imagine results from the flex system that begs the question: Does anyone else have a legitimate claim to Champion?

[Without getting into too much detail about these scenarios, I'll use one of yours. Your explanation of 1998 seems like precisely the kind of year where anarchy could have resulted. What if Ohio State beat Tennessee and K-State beat Florida State. Then Ohio State beats K-State. UCLA and Arizona could legitimately claim they were mis-seeded and I can imagine a person agreeing. If they both win their bowl games, there are two teams that participated in the postseason (one in the "NC") with more losses than Arizona and UCLA. And only one of those two teams actually had to play more games than UCLA or Arizona. You say "tough", they cry foul. And they might be right.]

I also find (j) objectionable. The possibility, no matter how remote, that the process can fail to produce the result would perpetuate College Football's endless questioning of itself. Regardless of the outcome of the poll, how on earth would either team feel as if they'd accomplished anything? Why would a consensus of fans be required to agree with the result? Why should the winner of the game capitulate the NC? Suppose a 2 loss team beats an undefeated (now 1-loss) team. Regardless of who is crowned by a vote, the other team will have been cheated. It's lose-lose. The 1-loss team will point to its resume, the 2-loss will point to head-to-head. Granting the dispute to voters implies that there isn't one objective method for crowning a Champion, rather we have to go back to the question of "Bestness" as regards these teams.

To close up my general criticism, I don't know about a system that explicitly denies 2-loss teams participation (which I view as arbitrary, though it could be argued that 2-loss teams do not deserve a NC) except by default. (j) might as well deny a #2 seed (God forbid one of the other two loss teams cleans up its bowl game against a wortwhile opponent, whereas the 0-loss national champion sweeps the floor with the "#2 seed" -- weren't they misseeded, then?). Also the Flex System still operates with many of the assumptions (namely that 2-loss teams can never be the best) that the old system runs, and thus partially attempts to answer the same question about "Bestness". The inevitable result is that teams will continue to insist despite results that they were robbed of Championships or At Least A Chance, and some of those complaints might be founded.

Criticism of an admittedly intelligent (and in my opinion improved) system isn't impressive, so I'd be remiss if all I did was bash your well articulated Flex System without providing an alternative. Briefly, off the top of my head, and probably completely untenable, I say simply do an 8 team playoff.

The critic might respond that it has all of the problems I associated above, but I wonder whether that's actually true. The absolute "worst" situation I can imagine is the #8 seed winning it all. They beat an up-til-then-undefeated #2 seed in the National Championship.

Two main criticisms. One from the #2 team in the nation that lost the National Championship to a (likely) 3-loss team. One from the #9 seed that claims actionable non-participation.

Addressing the latter first. After the #8 seed had gone on to win 2 or else 3 more games than the #9 seed, all of which came against Top 10 or Top 5 teams, I wonder whether this complaint would even be made or heard. At best the #9 played the #10 in a Bowl game, but even if they win they've still accomplished significantly less than the #8 both in the regular season, the postseason, and thus the entire season viewed holistically. It doesn't seem possible for the #9 to argue they should have been in the #8's stead, given the massive accomplishments of the #8.

#2 seed's criticism is what terrifies CFB traditionalists, because there's still the question of "Did The Best Team Win The National Championship?"

No point denying it, because that's what invites the debate. Just respond "Who Cares?" The purpose of a playoff isn't to determine who the best team in College Football is, but rather to determine which of 8 teams survives the longest without losing. That's it. Fans might debate the various merit of the participating teams afterwards, but a devotion to the process makes criticisms sour grapes regardless of the "truth" of what happened. This is how the rest of the Sports World goes about deciding Champions, without ever insisting that the results always undeniably crown an unchallenged "Best" team. The shortness of sample size makes this pursuit ultimately a fool's errand every once in a while.

I say all this knowing that your Flex system is no more or less a "Procedure" than a playoff. I think it lends itself more to question and conjecture regarding the results because it still operates with many of the same assumptions that our current system does, namely an emphasis on providing undeniable results about which team has the "Bestness". (j) is one example of that (where the procedure is completely abandoned in favor of something else, for fear that it doesn't answer the right question). Also the exclusiveness of it invites legitimate criticisms from non-participants. I think once we get down to 8 teams, regardless of outcome, the results will speak for themselves. Even in the absolute worst instance, where the #8 wins, the #9 will necessarily have enough going against it (and the #8 will have enough going for it) that any such claims are unfounded.

Just my 2 cents. I could live with the Flex. Great post.

by Red Blooded @ Burnt Orange Nation on Feb 15, 2007 10:58 AM CST reply actions  

a ton of things here
And I'm going to try to respond to them in separate comments, for simplicity's sake.

First, you're right about the fact that I'm just taking a new tactic to answer the same question that the BCS has tried to answer (and in fact that college football has always tried to answer -- though not necessarily what the NFL has tried to answer).  Namely, which team is best?  I am not trying to reinvent the way we look at who should be the national champion.  I'm just trying to invent a better system for crowning the "best" team national champion.

And I don't see the problem with that.  Your point seems to be that you increasingly care less and less about which team is "best" (because it's somewhere between hard and impossible to determine  that) and instead care only about which team won according to the rules for winning.  And those rules don't have to be created to attempt to determine the best team, but rather to create an unassailable legitimacy of the national champion.  That's the reason you don't like (j) -- it sacrifices the "legitimacy" of the champion by deviating from the system in order to crown the "best" team.

But you need to look at my whole system as existing to crown the "best" team as national champion.  In that sense, the system isn't abandoned at all.  The system would be abandoned if I automatically crowned the 2-loss team national champion over the previously undefeated team.

by billyzane on Feb 15, 2007 12:13 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't disagree
with anything you've said here, nor with your characterization of my position.

I think the pursuit of "Bestness" is a fool's errand generally. Sometimes the answer is clear, other times it isn't. Any system that maintains "Bestness" as its end, either the current one or to a lesser extent your proposal, is obsessed with a concept that I think is unnecessary. Other sports survive and thrive without it. Given that Football lends itself to a smaller sampling size than could otherwise give "Bestness" the honest appraisal it deserves, I think this sport in particular lends itself to a playoff system that truly settles "Something" (if not that question of Bestness).

Your point seems to be that you increasingly care less and less about which team is "best" (because it's somewhere between hard and impossible to determine  that) and instead care only about which team won according to the rules for winning.  And those rules don't have to be created to attempt to determine the best team, but rather to create an unassailable legitimacy of the national champion.

I think a playoff does a meaningful or respectable enough of a job determining "Bestness" so that it's acceptable. Qualifying for playoffs and ultimately winning them might be arbitrary, but it's also primarily about winning, which is what we would have to base "Bestness" on anyways. Playoffs answer a question about the participants definitively. We could argue endlessly about Strength of Schedule, Margin of Victory, How They'd Do On Neutral Sites, etc. between various teams and never or rarely reach a consensus on "Bestness".

To be fair, you've offered a procedure that does precisely the same thing, I just think it has a few qualities common enough with the current system so that many of those unresolved questions persist.

But you need to look at my whole system as existing to crown the "best" team as national champion.  In that sense, the system isn't abandoned at all.  The system would be abandoned if I automatically crowned the 2-loss team national champion over the previously undefeated team.

That was actually one of my criticisms of the entire process. It is still concerned with this concept of "Bestness", best exemplified by (j). It is far truer and more comparable to our current system then a straight playoff (as the results are contingent on a vote), and I view that as a weakness. Not a glaring or lethal one.

I have become slightly disillusioned with CFBs handling of its champion. No other sport spends so much time debating the merit of its own crowning achievement. Perhaps that's one of the things that makes CFB so great, but that's a matter of taste. I don't hate the current system, nor your flex system. They work for me. I'd prefer something else, but it isn't a deal breaker.

Let's also keep in mind there are additional benefits to a playoff unmentioned in my analysis. It provides more quality Football for Football fans. At most under a Flex system we get 2 ultra-quality games. An 8 team playoff has 3 rounds of 7 games (4, then 2, then 1) all of which will involve the top 10 or else top 5 teams in the nation. As a fan of CFB, I salivate at that possibility.

by Red Blooded @ Burnt Orange Nation on Feb 15, 2007 12:54 PM CST up reply actions  

Not only do I think it a fool's errand
I don't think its all that provocative to begin with.  Sports are not exclusively about results (ie: winners and losers).  Sports were conceived as a form of meaningful interaction, they are a cultural ritual.  This embodies several things, among them: the awe of gathering thousands of people under one cause, the value of physical fitness in our society, the recognition of athletic genius, the sublimation of violence into a controlled activity, etc., etc.  

It is only our current culture that has decided that winning is all that matters, and that a proper champion should be our defining goal.  This is not NECESSARILY the primary issue to be understood from a love of sports.  

Now, it is a legitimate point that perhaps Sport always will, and probably should, reflect the values of the current culture, and if ours is a culture that primarily values "declaring" one specific team the best, then under the principles of utilitarianism and our ideals as a populace, it probably should be so.  

I guess my goal here is to either 1) provide another opinion for the populace to consider so as not to accept this seemingly inevitable conclusion blindly (which I believe most do, as I too can be very condescending at times), or 2) force the majority to legitimize their stance, if not for me but for themselves.  Because I have grown tired of the argument that we need a playoff simply because all of our other sports have one.  

I should note that BZ's post has done an excellent job of propelling goal # 2.  

But, again, my interest in college football has so little to do with the championship, and so much more to do with the journey throughout the season, and it is not worth changing the culture of college football in order to affect something as abstract as a champion.  I've said this before, but why should the whole damn thing be about one team?  This is about the manner in which college football might exist, more than it is about the #1 team, or even the #9 team who was left out.  

by BrooklynHorn on Feb 15, 2007 1:23 PM CST up reply actions  

We have common ground.
I've said this before, but why should the whole damn thing be about one team?  This is about the manner in which college football might exist, more than it is about the #1 team, or even the #9 team who was left out.

To this end you are preaching to the choir. My alma mater never finishes 1st nor 9th, so this entire discussion necessarily makes me an outsider looking in, wondering why the rest of the Nation cannot understand my obsession for a school that's largely irrelevant in a "Championship" discussion. I guess that's why I tend towards inclusivity, as it necessarily deemphasizes the individual teams participating, if only because of sheer volume.

by Red Blooded @ Burnt Orange Nation on Feb 15, 2007 1:45 PM CST up reply actions  

I guess where you desire inclusivity
...I desire to get rid of the values that make someone desire inclusivity in the first place.  Perhaps that best characterizes our difference.  I think we just see two wildly different solutions for get rid of the same problem.  

Excuse my ignorance, but I am assuming Texas Tech?

by BrooklynHorn on Feb 15, 2007 2:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Yep.

by Red Blooded @ Burnt Orange Nation on Feb 15, 2007 2:15 PM CST up reply actions  

second
Given your propensity to believe that what's important isn't determining who is "best" but rather the legitimacy of the system, I'm a bit confused about why you think my system isn't legitimate enough.  Allegedly, it's because there are enough teams (and post-season games) in an 8-team playoff to mitigate any complaints from non-included teams, whereas that's not true in my system (i.e. the 1998 season).

But isn't that just you saying that in my system, there are teams that are excluded who, if included, may have won the championship, whereas, in an 8-team playoff, excluded teams would not be likely to have won the championship if they had been included (i.e. your "worst" case scenario when an 8-seed wins)?  That rationale is heavily based on notions of who is "good enough" to be considered for the title of "best."  You're arguing on the same plane as I am -- who is best?  We're just marking different points for where we think the cutoff should be.

I think that no matter the system (outside of a 120-team playoff), you can't divorce yourself from the idea that, in some capactiy, you're determining who the "best" team is, not just who won according to the rules for winning.  If that's all you cared about, then, well, my system sets forth rules for winning.  Why, other than notions of "goodness" is an 8-team playoff any better?

by billyzane on Feb 15, 2007 12:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Clarification
Given your propensity to believe that what's important isn't determining who is "best" but rather the legitimacy of the system...

I think determining who is "best" is important, but not to the degree that I'm willing to paralyze that determination of "Champion" to pursue a flawless result. Sometimes sports are chaotic and we just don't know who the "Best" team is. So a procedure that makes a determination -- keeping in mind this procedure is ultimately about winning football games -- is preferable.

But isn't that just you saying that in my system, there are teams that are excluded who, if included, may have won the championship, whereas, in an 8-team playoff, excluded teams would not be likely to have won the championship if they had been included (i.e. your "worst" case scenario when an 8-seed wins)?  That rationale is heavily based on notions of who is "good enough" to be considered for the title of "best."  You're arguing on the same plane as I am -- who is best?  We're just marking different points for where we think the cutoff should be.

The rationale is based off the fact that a claim to Champion is only as legitimate as the results allow, and an 8 team playoff cannot produce any results where an outsider-looking-in could reasonably say they should have been included. In the 1998 example, I believe I identified a possible situation where two non-participants finished equal to or better than 100% of the participants. And not just by record, but in meaningful ways as they would have likely beaten top 10 teams in Bowl Games.

The only comparable scenario in an 8-team playoff I can imagine is an undefeated team that finishes 9th or worse in the country not getting access to the postseason. But that's inherent in both our proposals, and the current one, as an undefeated team with a mickey mouse schedule isn't going to be rewarded regardless. The difference is that the legitimacy of an outsider's claim to Champion decreases proportionally with their failed regular season accomplishments via Scheduling. It is far more likely that an undefeated #6 will have done enough to legitimize a claim to National Champion than a #9 doing the same, as the #9 is ostensibly a #9 for a reason (schedule? Games were close? Who knows). I understand that this is itself an evaluation of "Betterness" between the two, but "Betterness" between two schools is at least easier to develop than "Bestness" among 119 of them.

The point being, the further you go down the list the less legitimate the non-participants complaint becomes to the College Football Viewing public. I think you tacitly grant this point when you respond to some teams with "Tough shit" yet others you say "That sucks but..." A 1-loss UCLA/Arizona in 1998 has far more reason to complain than a 1-loss mid-major ranked #9, for instance.

You jokingly say there were a million 2-loss teams in 2003, but really there were 6 of them. So that's 9 teams overall that possibly could have made the postseason in 2003. There's little substantive difference between the #9 2-loss team and the #8 2-loss team, but there already existed a world of difference (by your own admission) between #4 Michigan and all the other 2-loss teams.

So who would Miami (lowest ranked 2-loss team when all was said and done, and likely the team on the outside looking in) have leveled a legitimate complaint? If #8 wins it all, then it cannot be them (as they are a 2-loss team with 3 more quality wins than Miami and that managed to maintain position above Miami through the Regular Season). If #8 loses to anyone else, then Miami is simply arguing for #8's losing spot, and no matter who wins they're facing a team with a better Regular Season Resume and a substantial postseason accomplishment. There is no way to holistically compare the #9 seed to whomever wins a three round tournament. I don't think the same could be true for the troubles associated with the 1998 example.

Why, other than notions of "goodness" is an 8-team playoff any better?

Inclusiveness. More quality games. If we're merely trying to limit the amount of teams that could legitimately make claim to the "Championship", then as the participants increase the accomplishments of outsiders look even more pathetic.

What it comes down to is this: If a team finishes the season #6, is their claim to Championship more or less reasonable than the #9 seed (presuming these are based on resume)? I choose 8 teams because it would in nearly all instances capture everyone deserving of a shot without leaving anyone with a legitimate complaint behind, and also because it is a convenient number for tournament structure.

Really this is all a general argument for inclusiveness because I want Texas Tech to have a chance.

by Red Blooded @ Burnt Orange Nation on Feb 15, 2007 1:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Fair, but...
"But fundamentally it doesn't change the nature of the sport or attitude of the participants."

Exactly.

My problem is that I do charge that an eight-team playoff will fall victim to all of these same criticisms (although I sincerely appreciate your acknowlement of the possibility).  The difference is that I think a larger playoff will fundamentally change the nature of the sport and the behavior of its participants, and that's exactly what I don't want.

by BrooklynHorn on Feb 15, 2007 12:35 PM CST up reply actions  

good to have you here, BrooklynHorn
i've been going it alone for a while.  i need backup.

by billyzane on Feb 15, 2007 12:38 PM CST up reply actions  

It kills me
you picked the wrong week for this one, BZ, I just don't have the free time I normally do.

by BrooklynHorn on Feb 15, 2007 12:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Sorry Counselor
Im at work
Just Remember, No Matter What Happens, ou SUCKS.

by ouALWAYSsux on Feb 15, 2007 1:20 PM CST up reply actions  

By the way
This is a fantastic post.  Very well thought out.  My desperate and passionate need to convince the world that a large playoff is not necessary has been something I've wanted to put down as a thorough written argument for a while.  

Your inclusion of an alternate system does well for your arguments.  The typical problem I've had with most of the philosophy I've read is that I often agree with the assessment of the state of things, as well as the possible problems that result, but almost never with the solution that is prescribed.  The second halves of most philosophical works are garbage to me, and I would be a less angry and bitter person if I stopped reading most books half way through.  

But I have little problem with your system, as I would have settled simply for a 4-team playoff.  I know I have the reputation of being anti-playoff, but I've always been in favor of a small one (4 teams or perhaps 6 with a first round bye for 1 and 2).  I just can't live with that slippery slope of playoff expansion that is inevitable, and so I generally feel safer as long as we don't have any playoff at all.  

by BrooklynHorn on Feb 15, 2007 2:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Couldn't agree with you more..
I'm at work, sorry about not joining in, to busy........
Just Remember, No Matter What Happens, ou SUCKS.

by ouALWAYSsux on Feb 15, 2007 1:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Not bad
I've thought about the flexible playoff before, but I never bothered to flesh it out as much as you have here, so I had always dismissed it before as too subjective.  College football is a sport that is heavily reliant on subjective rankings with no possible means of perfect objectivity in determining a champion, but it's always a good idea to try to implement objective procedure as much as possible.

That being said, a procedure-based flexible schedule is an excellent idea- as long as it forsees every possible circumstance instead of trying to compensate for previous mistakes.

I like the possible rewards for regular season success in ths formula, which was something I thought was missing from 4, 8, and 16-team playoffs, and why I advocate a 6-team formula.  I haven't had the time to completely read through this, but I will in a couple of hours.  From a quick read-though, though, this seems to be one of the better proposals out there, although it's also probably one of the least likely to be adopted.

by boomhauer25 on Feb 15, 2007 11:18 AM CST reply actions  

The best part is when..
you tell 2001 Colorado to "shut the hell up!"

by BrooklynHorn on Feb 15, 2007 12:30 PM CST reply actions  

even better
than when you got a shout-out?

by billyzane on Feb 15, 2007 12:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Way better...
in my head, I could hear Homer Simpson shouting it as if he were yelling at Flanders.

by BrooklynHorn on Feb 15, 2007 12:42 PM CST up reply actions  

so...
in any sort of playoff system, would we be getting rid of the significance of the BCS bowl games?

I can't imagine the rose bowl parade, or the confetti, or any of the celebrations being taken seriously if the winner has to play a more important game the next week and try to forget about the previous bowl win.

by greenman on Feb 15, 2007 1:21 PM CST reply actions  

pretty much
you can create a plyoff outside of the bowl games and still have the bowl games, but then the bowl games would still be less important because the teams involved aren't as good.

by billyzane on Feb 15, 2007 1:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Why not play
the semifinal games (if there were any) in a non-bowl game the week after the conference championships, with the losers going to the other BCS games in a predetermined empty slot?

For example, this year Florida would play and likely defeat Michigan, with Michigan then going to the Rose Bowl.

You might want to do away with the conference championships in this situation so you don't run in to the problem of Michigan having a layoff and Florida having an extra game, but is that really such a big loss?

by boomhauer25 on Feb 15, 2007 2:01 PM CST reply actions  

not bad
I don't think this proposal is any less reasonable for the determination of the national champion than my version.  And it would allow for the bowl games to maintain thier current structure as games within themselves, not as cogs in a bigger machine.

by billyzane on Feb 15, 2007 2:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Excellent job billyzane
Though there naturally might be an aspect or two in need of refining, your system is as good as can be hoped. It risks less in taking too much away from the regular season, while allowing for a playoff in years where one may be necessary. Essentially, it's balanced and reasonable.

That being said, I can't help but wish there were some sort of 'double jeopardy' clause that would sustain (or create?) a sense of finality during regular season contests (I am against conference championship games, especially when the two teams have already played). In your 2000 example, I just feel sorry for those Miami guys needing to defeat FSU for the second time, rendering the original encounter as less important. I think it'd be wonderful if Miami were advanced by default.

However, 2000 is also a fine example of why such a clause would not work (at least not in any method that I can come up with). What if, instead of against one another, Miami and FSU were drawn against the other semi-finalists? Should FSU still be withheld to prevent a potential meeting in the final with Miami? If so, who gets the bye: the team that performed the dirty work of defeating FSU (Miami) or the #1 team (OU)?

Of course, Washington did beat Miami in 2000 and fits the above scenario, while creating a new one as well. What happens when team A beats B who beat team C and all three qualify for the 'flex'? I really have no idea, which is why I doubt a double jeopardy clause would work. But if you cared to, maybe you can think up something?

It might be an impossible dream of mine, but I think it's worth looking into. I hate the idea of the recent Michigan-Ohio St. clash losing significance due to an impending playoff for which both teams were likely to qualify. It'd also be a shame if Michigan ended up as 'champions' over an OSU team to whom they had already succumbed. But any clause might be such a pain in the ass to incorporate that I wouldn't blame you if you just ignored the idea completely.

Once again, great work.

by Ryan @ Burnt Orange Nation on Feb 15, 2007 2:02 PM CST reply actions  

Section "g" typo?
g.    If the only undefeated team in the top 5 of the BCS standings is ranked #1, and there is only one 1-loss team in the top 4 of the BCS standings, then those two teams will advance to the national championship game in a 2-game playoff.

**Is this supposed to be a "2-team" playoff?  I assume so, but we all know about assumptions.

by Shake on Feb 15, 2007 2:05 PM CST reply actions  

Yes, it is complex...
and yet, it is extremely simple using the perspective of common sense.

BZ- I doubt I am alone in this thought, but I am very impressed to see you be able to capture everything in writing that my brain has been randomly tossing around and sorting through over the past few years.  What other mystical powers do you possess?

Anyway, this is well-written, thought-out, and structured.  It just makes damn good sense.

by Shake on Feb 15, 2007 2:10 PM CST reply actions  

thank you
and the only other mystical power i possess is the ability to pass law school while writing stuff like this instead of paying attention in class (or even going to class, really....)

by billyzane on Feb 15, 2007 2:25 PM CST up reply actions  

My thoughts
Are pretty much in line with Red Blooded.

I do like the flex system you have proposed more than the current system, and I think it would take care of the many complaints that have been made in the last couple of years.  Also, by using the existing bowl games you have taken care of most of the issue with TV scheduling. Although I am sure it will be harder to determine what a network should pay for the rights to broadcast each bowl, as depending on the outcome of the season. The bowl may or may not be part of the playoff picture, and this would greatly affect the price of advertising, but I think the networks would bid less for these bowls based on that possibility.

I do think that this system will encourage more cup cake scheduling.  Instead of an undefeated Texas having to make it in the top ten, now they only have to make it in the top 5.  Texas could play 3 I-AA teams and if they go undefeated will still be in the top 5.  One solution to this could be to include a minimum out of conference SOS or make all teams play at least one out of conference BCS team to be included in the flex-playoff.

My biggest problem is that your whole system is based only on what you define as "Best".  This is a subjective idea.  You obviously think that to be defined as Best, you need to lose less than two games.  Other people may not be as troubled by two loss teams as you are.  Even more, other fans may not think that best is the only objective of a post season.  As Red Blooded said, an eight game playoff would allow for more games pitting the top eight opponents, which you quickly dismissed as outside of the objective.  But this is your objective, and may not be in line with what other believe should be the objective.

If there are no undefeated or one loss teams, then what happens?

by Wells on Feb 15, 2007 2:17 PM CST reply actions  

If there are no undefeated or one loss teams,
then we move on to the next section:

(o) If there are no teams which end the season with fewer than 2 losses, then teams with BCS rankings 1-4 will compete in a 4-team playoff, seeded in their ranked order.

by Shake on Feb 15, 2007 2:25 PM CST up reply actions  

I would bet
That BZ would say that that you go through k through m, but replace one loss with two loss.

by Wells on Feb 15, 2007 2:30 PM CST up reply actions  

well
actually, if i had thought about it before i just posted simultaneously with you, that might have been the better thing to do, on the theory that two loss teams are just as appreciably better than 3-loss teams as 1-loss teams are to 2-loss teams.

though there's also the theory, implicit in Shake's proposal, that once you get beyond 1-loss teams, it's all sort of the same in terms of deserving a national championship.

i'd have to think about it more, but I think i'm leaning towards what you're saying Wells.

by billyzane on Feb 15, 2007 2:34 PM CST up reply actions  

yeah
exactly what i would have said (though i would have qualified it with "top-4 teams with fewer than 2 losses") had i not been so blind to this possibility.

apologies.

by billyzane on Feb 15, 2007 2:30 PM CST up reply actions  

agree
I haven't added anything because Red Blooded and Wells have stated pretty much the same things I think.  No reason to repeat stuff over and over.

But I think Wells' last paragraph hits the nail on the head, and is also part of the reason I think the debate on yesterday's post was more important.  There is no clear definition of "best," especially in college football where teams rarely play each other in the regular season.  

You would also have to do away with all polls until one final one at the end of the season, because some teams' resumes will be based on whatever preconceived notions existed at the time they played certain teams.

But I still think that the best way to determine the "best" team is to have them all play each other at the end of the year.  If a team truly is the "best" team, shouldn't it win all its playoff games.  If it doesn't, where is the justification for calling it the best?  Of course, there are always going to be exceptions and tough breaks for teams in any system, and it just becomes a matter of what you can live with most.

For my money, allowing the top 8 teams out of a 119-team field to compete against each other for the right to be crowned "National Champion" serves the purpose in the best way.  It's inclusive enough to give teams a rightful shot, but exclusive enough not to discount the regular season.  For me, the argument about who might be the "best" team that year is secondary and not my intended goal.  Building a consensus to decide the best team in a given year reduces sports to academic exercises.  That's not what I want.

by Jason Mayer on Feb 15, 2007 2:37 PM CST up reply actions  

I would add one thing
Agree with just about all that you just stated, Jason.

But, and I think you understand this, as evidenced by your comment that yesterday's debate was as, if not more, important as this one - I think there's a big confusion in the general college football consuming public between "best" and "national champion," and it's critical to the debate that the distinction be made crystal clear. Further, it's probably important that folks who want a playoff format adopted by loud and strong advocates for the distinction, as almost all of the chaos that surrounds CFB crowning is birthed from folks confusing the two.

Reasonable playoff proponens like yourself are hindered by the efforts of proponents who fail to understand this distinction, and, worse, actually use the latter (playoffs) as some sort of objective definition of the former ("best").

The terms of the debate have to be clear.

Yet another reason why this whole conversation on BON has been so rich and interesting.

I'm delighted by all the opinions on both sides.

--PB--

by Peter Bean on Feb 15, 2007 2:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Typo
That should read: "BE loud and strong advocates," not "BY"
--PB--

by Peter Bean on Feb 15, 2007 2:46 PM CST up reply actions  

exactly
The Flex playoff system is based on trying to make the potentially divergent notions of "best" and "national champion" coincide as often as possible.

A larger playoff proponent like Red Blooded will say (and has said) that it's a fool's errand to try to determine the "best" team in any given year given the nature of the sport of college football and thus the system for determining the national champion should be an end in and of itself, not some means for crowning the "best" team national champion.

This is entirely reasonable even if I disagree with it.  But thank you PB for pointing out once again that the distinction must be made.

by billyzane on Feb 15, 2007 3:04 PM CST up reply actions  

to flesh this out a little bit
i don't think we should have a system for determining the national champion that is an end in itself.  i think it HAS to be a means to something else.

what's the point of crowning a national champion if the only point of doing so is to crown a national champion, rather than to crown the "best" team as national champion?  it seems to me to be an empty title unless it means something.  

otherwise why not just play the games and have fun and vote in polls to see where we all think everyone is ranked and then the team that's #1 can claim to have won a mythical national championship?  if we're crowning a national champion just for the sake of doing so without any real purpose, why have a system at all?

by billyzane on Feb 15, 2007 3:14 PM CST up reply actions  

Response:
i don't think we should have a system for determining the national champion that is an end in itself.  i think it HAS to be a means to something else.

I use the example of other sports not because I think CFB is necessarily better served by mimicery, but rather to illustrate that it is possible to accomplish what you want accomplished with a playoff system. No one argued after the Superbowl that the Chargers (and not the Colts) were the best team in the NFL. The Colts are the Superbowl Champs, ergo the World Champs (because America is the world, ok???), ergo the number 1 team in Football. The culture of the NFL preempts the discussion from going further. Implicit in your argument is that the NFL might be absolutely wrong, and that their method doesn't tell us what we want to know.

I would prefer a system that answers a question as opposed to one that encourages additional ones. I watch the NFL playoffs and wonder in amazement why none of my colleagues are dissecting the various damning situations that might occur if gasp a 9 win team goes on and wins it all. Will their championship be challenged by competing Coaches, nevermind fans? Will we have a year long debate about who "The Best" really was? I doubt it, and we never do.

I do not think the NFL Playoffs is a system that exists as an end in itself. I think the Owners and the NFL Culture are in sincere, genuine agreement that it answers the question: What is the Best NFL Team? Perhaps it doesn't. But for whatever reason, the second the game ends the point is settled. That's a virtue of a playoff system, in my opinion.

what's the point of crowning a national champion if the only point of doing so is to crown a national champion, rather than to crown the "best" team as national champion?  it seems to me to be an empty title unless it means something.

I'll continue with my (likely imperfect) analogy. I've never heard of a meaningless Superbowl Victory. I have heard of a meaningless or objectionable College Football Championship. If the goal is to consistencly produce a result that "means something", then I think the NFL playoffs trump CFBs current system. To your enormous credit, I think your Flex System trumps the current CFB system as well (while perhaps maintaining some of the traditionally preferable distinctions of this great sport).

if we're crowning a national champion just for the sake of doing so without any real purpose, why have a system at all?

While I've argued extensively that one advantage of a Playoff is because it is a set procedure that presents an undeniable result, I don't think it determines something just for the sake of determining something. That would be a coin flip. Playoffs are still contingent on winning football games and thus have a very identifiable relation with "Bestness". Perhaps not the best method of objectively determining that concept, but a very good one. The best, in my opinion, of many competing alternatives -- because those alternative are too semantic or subjective and occasionally we go through the whole tiresome process just to watch reasonable minds disagree.

by Red Blooded @ Burnt Orange Nation on Feb 15, 2007 4:23 PM CST up reply actions  

so...
we shouldn't argue about whether playoffs are ideal because no one debates them in the NFL. That's an argument?! I don't think it would be difficult for anyone to think of institutions that were (or maybe still are) widely accepted at a given time in history, yet are now seen as inherently wrong/stupid/ridiculous.

You're right though that playoffs reward teams that keep winning (a positive aspect, no doubt), but I'd argue it also risks rewarding teams that have won notably less overall than others heading into the playoffs. Is this so large a problem? Well, maybe or maybe not, depending on your tastes. For me, playoffs are not naturally bad, rather they're different and perhaps not ideal. And I'm not convinced that college football is so sickly that it's in need of a cheap remedy.

Besides, the NFL is what it is, March madness is what it is, the German Bundesliga is what it is, etc...They're all quite unique compared to the other and yet they all work (at least I think so). College football is not doomed or inferior just because it's different from the NFL. I don't understand why there is this push to try and make college football and other American sports all virtually identical. If someone loves the NFL playoffs so much, they're more than welcome to follow them and watch all the games they desire (assuming the NFL allows them). But is it really essential to duplicate them in the college game, when as an alternative we could enjoy the best of both worlds?

by Ryan @ Burnt Orange Nation on Feb 15, 2007 5:33 PM CST up reply actions  

re: so
Please tell me you weren't just trying to compare playoffs to slavery.

by Jason Mayer on Feb 15, 2007 6:44 PM CST up reply actions  

heh
Nah, but I suppose that's inevitably one thing that might come to mind for some. I think later I said playoffs aren't bad (or something like that), which I would hope implies a distinction. I was merely trying to address a poor method of argument that stood out when compared to some of the better points he was making.

by Ryan @ Burnt Orange Nation on Feb 15, 2007 6:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Response:
we shouldn't argue about whether playoffs are ideal because no one debates them in the NFL. That's an argument?!

I reread my post to see if perhaps I stated something incorrectly, but that wasn't the case. Nowhere in my post did it suggest that the lack of debate about the "idealness" of the NFL implies that we shouldn't discuss it in CFB.

No one debates the results of the playoffs is what I was getting at. People might debate the idealness of playoffs in general, just as we are here. They might even debate the idealness of playoffs in the NFL (though I rarely have heard that argument). What I was trying to explain was that the results of the Superbowl aren't disputed; no one thinks the Bears really won. No one thinks the Chargers really won. The NFL playoffs are always definitive and unanimous, sometimes the CFB postseason is, sometimes it's not. As I prefer a postseason system that has incontestable results.

I don't think it would be difficult for anyone to think of institutions that were (or maybe still are) widely accepted at a given time in history, yet are now seen as inherently wrong/stupid/ridiculous.
Pointing out this fact doesn't invalidate playoffs anymore than pointing out that the status quo has sometimes been wrong in the past proves that the CFB status quo is therefore wrong. If playoffs are wrong for CFB, it's for some reason besides "sometimes institutions that are widely accepted turn out to be inherently wrong/stupid/ridiculous".

And anyways, since we're talking about modifying the currently "accepted" institution of CFB, your point would be equally damning to the CFB BCS system as it would to the NFL playoffs. In any event...

You're right though that playoffs reward teams that keep winning (a positive aspect, no doubt), but I'd argue it also risks rewarding teams that have won notably less overall than others heading into the playoffs.
We agree about this.
And I'm not convinced that college football is so sickly that it's in need of a cheap remedy.
I want to viciously agree with you here and reiterate something I said earlier. I do not think CFB is "broken". I am not fond of the current system, I have a system in my head that I think would work better (but that I acknowledge the possibility of being wrong, although that's never happened before), but this doesn't mean I think a change is necessary for the sport. CFB will remain meaningful to me even if it never changes. I just love the sport. Arguments on either side (playoffs or not) that insist more is at stake than is at stake are unnecessarily hyperbolic and confuse/cloud the debate.
College football is not doomed or inferior just because it's different from the NFL.
Again, vicious agreement. Some would even go farther by saying that the differences are precisely what makes CFB so great. As regards playoffs, I'm not one of those people, but I understand the sentiment.
But is it really essential to duplicate them in the college game, when as an alternative we could enjoy the best of both worlds?
I don't think there is anything wrong with suggesting ways to make your favorite sport better, so long as you present those ideas sincerely and with an open mind. I compare the NFL and CFB not because I want them to be identical, but rather because I think one of them does a better job with its postseason than the other. Going the other way, just because I want the NFL to adopt pass interference rules that more closely resemble CFB doesn't mean I'm ready to abandon the NFL. I'm just trying to improve something I love.

by Red Blooded @ Burnt Orange Nation on Feb 15, 2007 6:57 PM CST up reply actions  

Thanks for the clarification
I have no problems with arguments for a playoff (even if I don't agree), but I do get annoyed when the NFL is used as the primary source for them. So I'm happy that we both agree that college football is not automatically weakened by its unique qualities.

Also, 'ideal' was just a quick word choice. Perhaps I should've been more careful? You're welcome to substitute in 'results of playoffs' and I'd still stand by that point.

I apologize if I've lumped you together with so many other playoff advocates, whom I had in mind when posting.

by Ryan @ Burnt Orange Nation on Feb 15, 2007 7:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Response:
Also, 'ideal' was just a quick word choice. Perhaps I should've been more careful? You're welcome to substitute in 'results of playoffs' and I'd still stand by that point.

I still think the point stands. I use the NFL as a fair comparison as it is the same sport and no one ever disputes the winner of the Superbowl. It's likely that no one would ever dispute the winner of a CFB playoffs.

None of which is to say that the debate shouldn't occur, merely that I'm comparing like causes with like effects. If playoffs provide a "winner" in all sports besides CFB, I doubt whether this sport is so unique that the same system would produce the same result. Which is a clear and undeniable winner year after year.

by Red Blooded @ Burnt Orange Nation on Feb 15, 2007 7:24 PM CST up reply actions  

"wouldn't"
that is...

by Red Blooded @ Burnt Orange Nation on Feb 15, 2007 7:24 PM CST up reply actions  

To me this isn't about
whether or not an 8-team tournament would work.  Its about whether or not this will change the behavior of teams and the culture of college football.  

While I don't like an 8-team playoff, it may not be the end of the world.  The end of the world will begin when the presidents of the colleges and television networks decide that it is more lucrative to expand the tournament.  I can think of very few playoff formats that haven't been expanded, and, in my opinion, that expansion has been detrimental to most of those sports.  

The meat of my argument is this:

Right now, as it exists, we have any number of possibilities to alter the game and preserve its culture.  BUT, once we go to a playoff system, it is set.  Forever.  Can we all agree that once we have a playoff system in place, there is ZERO possibility of ever going back?  At which point we will not have any choice, and we will be stuck with a system that has nowhere to evolve but to become bigger and more watered down.

by BrooklynHorn on Feb 15, 2007 2:51 PM CST up reply actions  

I offer a qualification
Can we all agree that once we have a playoff system in place, there is ZERO possibility of ever going back?

I would add: except it results in a drastic, overwhelmingly negative change in College Football Culture. This debate and a hypothetical switch to playoffs would prove, if nothing else, that College Football is a mealeable thing. And it would be mealable proportional to how the fans and the viewing public identified the consequences of change. The BCS wasn't always the system. It might not be in the future. If we are "stuck" with Playoffs, I don't think it is "regardless of the effects" but rather because of them. That is to say, I think they will improve the sport.

If they don't, I think change is possible. Likely, in fact (I hope!)

by Red Blooded @ Burnt Orange Nation on Feb 15, 2007 3:11 PM CST up reply actions  

I gues I've just never seen
any bit of historical evidence to support this.  

MLB is a good example.  This current era (with the exception of Boston of 04) has been extremely unremarkable.  You can use steroids as a scapegoat, but I think so much of it is the watered down playoffs.  We never know what we're going to get in the end, and it seems so unsatisfying either way.  But will it ever change back?   I can't imagine.  Will the NCAA tournament ever go back to 32 teams?  Will the NBA reduce their playoffs from 9 weeks (!!!!!) to 6?   I doubt it.  

At least we've not yet seen it.  All tournaments have grown historically, none has shrunk.

by BrooklynHorn on Feb 15, 2007 3:18 PM CST up reply actions  

growth
The only reason I don't see a drastic increase in playoff teams is the fact that there are a limited number of games that college presidents would be willing to sign up for.  Plus, with existing bowls still in place as rewards for all the other teams with good to decent seasons, there won't be much incentive to expand.

At the very worst, I could see an 8-team format expanding to 12, but that's debatable and should hardly be the reason for discounting a playoff in the first place.

I recognize that I'm making a lot of assumptions in my argument, but I think that's true for either side of this question.

Not only that, but were it not for the expansion of the baseball playoffs, we wouldn't have had the chance to see Boston in '04.

by Jason Mayer on Feb 15, 2007 3:36 PM CST up reply actions  

mealeable?
do you mean malleable?  like it can be shaped and twisted, etc?

i'm not trying to be rude; just making sure that's what you meant and not that there's some new word for edibile.

by billyzane on Feb 15, 2007 3:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes, malleable
as in impressionable, moldable, flexible, etc. My fault.

by Red Blooded @ Burnt Orange Nation on Feb 15, 2007 4:00 PM CST up reply actions  

That
is the best argument against a playoff in my opinion.
"A lot of people look for the easy way to do anything, in swimming there is no easy way." - Eddie Reese

by SwimTexas on Feb 15, 2007 2:57 PM CST reply actions  

As bad as I WANT a playoff
If I were a college president, that argument would give me pause to vote in favor of one.
"A lot of people look for the easy way to do anything, in swimming there is no easy way." - Eddie Reese

by SwimTexas on Feb 15, 2007 2:58 PM CST reply actions  

Sorry,
to which argument are you referring?

by BrooklynHorn on Feb 15, 2007 3:00 PM CST up reply actions  

That inevitably
ANY playoff system, no matter how small in origin, would eventually balloon up to a nice, fat, money making size that waters down the sport entirely.
"A lot of people look for the easy way to do anything, in swimming there is no easy way." - Eddie Reese

by SwimTexas on Feb 15, 2007 3:05 PM CST reply actions  

Yup
An argument can almost always be made for expanding any playoff system. It would get difficult to know where to draw the line.

by Ryan @ Burnt Orange Nation on Feb 15, 2007 3:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Good Idea
I like the idea a lot.  I think it gives too much volatility to revenue from the Network perspective and whether anyone wants to confess or not...all the decisions have money at their root.

The networks are going to want to rely on the revenue of 3 big games(two semis and a final) and not have to worry about what is going to happen if there is only 1 game that matters.  BCS games will still draw a crowd, but the games with MNC implications will draw a national crowd vs a regional crowd.

by afat on Feb 15, 2007 4:55 PM CST reply actions  

I'm not so sure
The NBA and MLB have to deal with a three-game swing per series.  You can adjust this formula so that their is, at maximum, a two-game swing overall.

Of course, football games draw more than most of those games, but still, the networks head into these series with a great deal of uncertainty, and somehow they cope.

I'm not saying the networks will ever agree to something that would take any football games away from them, but there's a real possibility that this wouldn't be much of a risk on the networks' part.

by boomhauer25 on Feb 15, 2007 8:00 PM CST up reply actions  

I think you are right
As I said earlier, the networks would just factor that into their bid price for the right to broadcast.  I think that the NCAA would be missing out on money if it turns out there would be a 4 team playoff, as the broadcast rights are probably worth more than they sold them for.

by Wells on Feb 16, 2007 10:15 AM CST up reply actions  

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