Mandel's Coaches Rankings Up
by jc25 on Jul 11, 2007 12:57 PM CDT
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Mack checks in at 4, and Ol' Stoopsie at 5. Somewhat surprisingly, TCU's Gary Patterson squeaks in at 10.
And our favorite Dennis, Mr. Franchione, has his rightful place as 2nd worst coach, behind Al Groh.
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Just a little change
I don't think Groh should be the worst coach because Virginia has never been a really good football team. I've been watching football for almost 40 years and I don't recall Virginia ever being much better than mediocre.
Texas A&M is a different story. They have been good over the years, sometimes very good.
While Groh has managed to get a few really good players, Texas A&M has had a lot more. A&M always has great linemen, almost always has great linebackers, great runners, and great DBs. Over the years they have had some really good QBs also.
So, Groh has delivered mediocrity at a school that has always attracted mediocre talent. Franchione has delivered mediocrity at a school that almost always has good-to-great players across the field.
As for the Best Coaches, I might have found a way to get Tedford on there somewhere, but I have to agree that all those guys listed are deserving. TCU's Gary Patterson might have been the reason daFrogs were good back when coach Fran was there. Patterson was the DC, wasn't he?
by Arby A on Jul 11, 2007 8:01 PM CDT reply actions
not so fast...
other than the years they were blatantly and gleefully cheating their asses off... when exactly was aTm "sometimes very good"?
by agent orange on Jul 12, 2007 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, there were a few years . . .
. . . when they were good enough to beat t.u.
Such as:
1975 10-20
1976 3-27
1979 7-13
1980 14-24
1984 12-37
1985 10-42
1986 3-16
1987 13-20
1988 24-28
1989 10-21
1991 14-31
1992 13-34
1993 9-18
1994 10-34
1997 16-27
1999 16-20
While that doesn't necessarily qualify A&M as "very good", it should give you an idea of the years that I am talking about. You would have to find a real Aggie fan to tell you those years when the Aggies were better than just mediocre. Maybe Beergut could help us out.
On the other hand, try to name me a couple of years over the last 40 when Virginia was better than just mediocre. Comparatively, you have to expect more from A&M than from Virginia.
Speaking of that, I really don't like calling Franchione one of the worst coaches in football. That bothers me. If he was really that bad he wouldn't have ever been coach of TCU or Alabama or A&M. He might have petered his way into those jobs, but the label "worst" just doesn't fit. It shouldn't apply to Bob Davie or Gary Moeller either. I don't know anything about Groh and there isn't any reason why I should, but there are lots of coaches who fail miserably at their first job. These guys got good 1A jobs at big schools because they had some success.
by Arby A on Jul 12, 2007 7:21 PM CDT reply actions
Ooops, Some UVa history
Well, some research has revealed some ignorance on my part of some really good years of UVa Cavalier football. It seems that back in 1990 they were ranked #1 for three straight weeks. That is way better than I gave them credit for. They have gone to 16 bowls in their history. In the George Welsh era they went to 12 bowls in 19 years. I haven't found a final ranking for any of those years however. In 1996 they beat a highly-ranked North Carolina team costing them an alliance bowl. After the next year the UNC coach left for The University of Texas. Maybe those games against UVa contributed to the wrongful idea that Mack couldn't win the big game. Anyway, kudos to the Cavaliers. They have been much better than I remembered. By the way, Groh's bowl record is 3-1 in 6 years. His overall record is 42-33. Not too shabby for "the worst coach in Div 1A".
by Arby A on Jul 13, 2007 12:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Plus ...
. . . they crushed The University of Texas 37-13 as recently as 1996. At the time UVa was ranked 19th and we (that is The University of Texas) was ranked 13th.
by Arby A on Jul 13, 2007 1:20 AM CDT up reply actions
I think
he was just trying to channel some agroid while having to admit that they whipped our butt a number of years in a row.
Looking at that list clarifies a mystery of mine, why I hate aTm so much without really remembering the reason: they were kicking Longhorn ass during much of my formative childhood.
Well, I use it . . .
. . . and I am not an Aggie fan.
I use that when I am trying to snap Longhorns out of taking the A&M game for granted. Even Vince couldn't make it look easy. Only Roy Williams and Cedric Benson ever really rubbed the Aggie's noses in a stinging defeat (at least post-Darrell).
People on this site are often forgetful (or weren't born yet) of all the times the bAggies have beat us. The above-cited list makes me sick; as sick as hearing "t.u." for a whole year. As far as I am concerned there are two games that I want to win EVERY YEAR: Baylor and A&M. If we can't beat daBears we truly stink. If we can't beat A&M then we deserve nothing better than the Alamo Bowl. Those two games are how I measure the entire year.
Last year everybody thought we would beat A&M. The game was at home, the South crown was on the line, we had a big win streak against them, they were this, we were that, blah blah blah. They whupped us on the line. Period. They wanted it more. The Hurt QB Excuse still hacks me off. If McCoy was hurt (and he CLEARLY WAS) they should have put Snead in there. He was good enough to put up 42 on KState wasn't he? Dagnabbit.
We are already doing it again. Some of the BON diaries have asked people to talk about the 2007 schedule. People have listed OU and Nebraska as the tough games. We beat both those teams last year. Some have mentioned TCU. But, it was KState and TAMU that kept us from winning the South.
Back to the original point: TAMU vs. UVa
How often has TAMU been so bad that we really could take them for granted? Mmmmm? UVa more often than not is terrible. Since 1960 they've been ranked in the top 10, what?, never? Top 20 like 5 or 6 times. Every year TAMU has the motivation and the talent to beat one of the best football teams to ever take the field: The University of Texas Longhorns.
Since 1999 we've forgotten how much it sux to lose to them. To hear them crow the final score was 50-2 or something. People who I didn't even know were aggies were whistling the hullaballoo-kunek-kunek thing and changing their phones to ring like the aggie band. Grrrr. If we don't want to hear that for another year we'd better take that game seriously. We shouldn't ask questions like "When were the aggies really good?" We should all know the answer: all too often good enough to beat us.
by Arby A on Jul 12, 2007 9:41 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm sorry
No self respecting graduate of Texas would ever refer to their school as t.u. I don't care what point they were trying to make.
And are you trying to prevent me from taking the A&M game for granted? Because last time I checked, I wasn't suiting up or putting a headset on for that game.
by Jason Mayer on Jul 12, 2007 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, sir, I respectfully disagree
This here "self respecting graduate of Texas" calls the place t.u., and even the back 40, and has been for years. Something tells me I was being called t-sip by my family before you could spell "university". Not that my age gives me any special qualifications, except for the simple fact that I have been eating crow for half of my adult life, fed to me by the nuturing biosphere of my tight-knit clan. I am severely outnumbered in said clan by graduates of A&M, God help 'em.
And, like you, I won't be suiting up for the actual football game, but I will be suiting up for the resulting noogies if we lose again. That's the way life is. If you t-sips can't stand to see or hear the beloved alma mater called t.u. how can you face an Aggie? Get over the words. Get used to them. Make them part of your vocabulary or you will be victimized when Aggies use them.
Beyond that, the tone of fans (like the BONers) sets the tone for the rest of UT Nation. What is said, and believed, here makes a difference. Some people think its stoopid, but I truly believe that fans make a difference and their attitude carries over to the sportswriters, the school, and the players. If I didn't think that me caring, and you caring, and all the BONers caring, made any difference I wouldn't be writing this.
by Arby A on Jul 13, 2007 12:45 AM CDT up reply actions
see below
SwimTexas' post below sums it up pretty well. This is just ridiculous.
Arby, there is no way
you graduated from UT. Like Jason Mayer, SwimTexas' post below sums it up pretty well. This is just ridiculous.
I couldn't agree more with SwimTexas.
If Im wrong,
and Kahuna's post below made me re-think your post, I apoligize. Arby, I'm no English-grammer guy at all, but you just use the words "you t-sip's" to freely. I hope Kahuna's right........
You Are Right
and my best friend agrees with you guys. I'm way off base and he threatened to wack me himself if he ever hears me use those bastardized terms for our beloved University. I won't do it again. I promise. I guess I have been hanging out with aggies way too much.
By way of apology to those younger than I, here are some great words from the Hub (a.k.a, SundayMorningQuarterback). I hope he doesn't mind.
The transfer of responsibility to the young induces universal handwringing in all cultures and walks of life, inducing vision quests, rites of passage, internships, etc., but there aren't many better feelings in any kind of establishment than that of the kids made good.
Go Horns!
by Arby A on Jul 14, 2007 12:33 AM CDT up reply actions
No Prob......................
A small dose of reality
I'm no fan of Aggie, but I thought I'd insert a bit of reality to help Arby make his point. I saw this on another board and thought it appropriate.
Cumulative record in first 15 seasons in Div.1 football:
Dennis Franchione - (100 - 77)
Mack Brown - (98 - 77)
I'm not sure New Mexico St. and TCU
are the same thing as coaching in the ACC (against the most dominant football program over a 10-15 year span in the history of D1 football, FSU), but feel free to make the comparison.
Fran piled up that record against a bunch of unranked with his first 10 years at TCU and N. Mexico St.
That just isn't the same as 10 years at North Carolina in the ACC. It just isn't.
Someone should look it up, but I remember reading Fran had one of the worst records against ranked opponents as a BCS coach and until recently had never beaten a top 25 team.
Arby is serious
Oh my god
somebody smack this guy. First of all, I love how everybody over 40 thinks that everyone on these sites is 16 years old and that they are obligated to sneak how old they are into every post!
Second and more importantly "If you t-sips can't stand to see or hear the beloved alma mater called t.u. how can you face an Aggie? Get over the words. Get used to them. Make them part of your vocabulary or you will be victimized when Aggies use them."
I have got to tell you that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. The words don't affend me, and I have never been victimized, but I don't use them myself. Should women call themselves "Bitches and Ho's so they don't feel 'Victimized'? Should Aggies call each other Agros and Sheep F@#$%ers so that they 'Get used to it'? You seem like a smart guy..... but that post doesn't show it.
I don't usually chime in this harshly, but that just baffles me!
I'd sneak my age in "54" but people might get
confused and start looking for a beauty pagent reference.
That's what I like about you guys
you kick my butt when I need it.
sure, I went off crazy, but you have to admit that me using the backasswards way Aggies spell UT has put you guys in a spin. It seems like three or four of the responses have zeroed in on my use of the hated "t.u." That's what I mean by victimized. You can hardly think of anything else about my post. That phrase "dumbest thing I have ever heard" says it all. Come on. You have heard dumber things.
Besides, its funny.
Get over it.
Being old doesn't make me better in any way.
It only means I've been shtupped by Aggie a few more times. In fact, being older is worse.
If you think "t.u." is anything like "ho" or "sheepf&*%er", you have bigger problems than just missing the point another UT fan is trying to make.
by Arby A on Jul 13, 2007 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm with Arby A
He simply used a "shocking" term to illustrate a point he was trying to make. Look through his history of posting, and you'll see he's as burnt orange as the rest of us.
Let's just say some other residents of BON have irritated me a heckuva lot more with their misplaced language and unfounded characterizations, but maybe I'm just "naive".
except it's not funny
And I haven't heard anything dumber all day.
by Old Tex29 on Jul 13, 2007 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Its amazing to see that statistic
Coach Fran has a 15-17 record in the Big XII.
Wow. At least with RC, A&M lost only to the big boys (you know, Texas, Nebraska....and yes.....sigh, Oklahoma) but still mopped up against the bottom two-thirds of the league. But a sub-500 record implies that they are pretty much losing to everybody.
Ouch.
Not buying that Eyes
are the same thing as coaching in the ACC (against the most dominant football program over a 10-15 year span in the history of D1 football, FSU), but feel free to make the comparison.
Fran piled up that record against a bunch of unranked with his first 10 years at TCU and N. Mexico St. That just isn't the same as 10 years at North Carolina in the ACC. It just isn't.
.
C'mon EYES, I'm thinking your historical perspective is a bit cloudy. First off, Franchione's first 3 seasons of Div.1 football at New Mexico (NOT your claim of N.Mex.State), was much tougher in the WAC than Mack's 3 seasons at Tulane. While Mack's predecssor Dick Crum was playing teams like LSU, Florida State, OU and Auburn, he was able to produce a (74-41-3) record while Mack needed 9 seasons (1st yr. was good) of OOC cupcakes to post a (69-46-1) record at UNC.
When Mack Brown arrived at N.Carolina in 1988, going (1-10), the ACC had exactly ONE team (#9 Clemson) finish the season in the AP Top-20 (last year before it was expanded to the Top-25). Hardly a juggernaut! The following season Mack Brown finished (1-10) again, while only 2 ACC teams (#12 Clemson and #18 Virginia) managed to finish the season in the AP Top-25.
Until 1992, when previously independent Florida State joined, the ACC conference was not much better than New Mexico's WAC conference. In the above 1989 season, the WAC had BYU finish the season in the AP's #22 spot. In the 1990 season, the ACC placed 2 teams in the final Top-25 (#9 Clemson and #23 Virginia), while the WAC placed #22 BYU in the final ranking. In the 1991 season, the ACC placed 2 teams in the final Top-25 (#18 Clemson and #24 N.C.State), while the WAC placed #23 BYU and #25 Air Force in the final ranking.
While in the ACC, Mack Brown racked up 30 of his 69 victories by playing cupcakes like Army, Navy, Alphabet soup, Rice-a-roni, Tulane, Houston and Div.1-AA teams like William & Mary, Furman and VMI. Throw in a Duke here, a Wake there, along with a NCState and suddenly you have 69 victories. Mack's final 2 seasons at UNC and everything he has done at UT has been good, but the reality is his record in those first 15 seasons of Div.1 play were not as good as Franchione's. Franchione's 2 WAC Championships at TCU and his 2 winning seasons at Bama (including that 10-win season) definitely give him the advantage.
translation
"I'm thinking your historical perspective is a bit cloudy." = "You're a moron because you're younger than me, now get off my lawn you damn kid before I call your mother. Next time, I'm keeping your ball!"
The rhetoric may be slightly more palatable, but the message, as ever, remains the same. And just for symmetry's sake, I'll provide a translation of that sentence into what I really mean: "Trying to not sound like a jerk isn't the same as trying to not be a jerk."
Play nice, kids
We can have a discussion without getting after each other.
Even if you vehemently disagree.
We've been warned
I thought this comparison was already officially banned? Damn Kids!
Not banned
HornChamps, and whomever else, are free to make the comparison if they want to. I'll certainly scoff at it, but they're allowed to do it.
I find it silly to get into an argument about what Mack Brown did or didn't do at Tulane. He delivered a national title to Austin. I'm happy.
N. Mex St or New Mex
what-ever. Who cares if it was even BYU or ITT Tech?
How many national championships and top 10 teams has the WAC or Conference USA (or what ever reject conference TCU was in) produced?
Franchione has gotten more mileage out of having one guy (LT) on his team than any other coach I can think of.
You're right. Texas was much better off with the 4 coaches they fired before him.
Lets get rid of Mack and make it 5 coaches.
better yet, fire Mack and hire Fran!
that 15-17 record vs. the big 12 is really the kick in the pants this texas team needs!
All good points HC
But I don't know these points definitively make Fran's first 15 years better than Mac's.
Here are their histories for comparison:
Mac
Fran
While Fran never when 1-10, which Mac did three times, his first year at Tulane and his first two years at UNC, it did take Fran 6 years to get New Mexico to a bowl game, while Mac did it in three at Tulane. Also, Mac only coach for three years at Tulane, while Fran stayed at New Mexico for 6. Also of note is the last 8 years of Mac's first 15 he went to a bowl game and had a record of 72 and 26. Fran went to 5 bowl games (although it would have been 6 if Alabama could have gone to a bowl in 2002) in that time and had a record of 60 and 36.
Maybe that is just the result of weak out of conference scheduling, but when I look at the first 15 years for each coach, I don't see a definitive advantage to either one, although Mac's results seem to have been trending in the right direction, where as Fran's are more consistently mediocre to good with a few bright spots.
Speaking of jerks.
Don't attempt to talk for me. You're clueless and completely lacking the ability to comprehend the written word.
Go look in the mirror and find your favorite jerk.
That's too bad
I was really hoping for some fisticuffs...do the kids these days still use that term, fisticuffs?
my understanding
is that kids these days don't know shit about anything and should keep their opinions to themselves because they're all morons.
but that's just what i heard somewhere.
Harness that anger
You should really try and take some of this obviously misguided anger out on your neighbors' car. Eggs work well I'm told. Or you could just "pretend" to be a creep and spy on them for 6 hours through the blinds...whatever brings you down the best.
from a VA perspective
IMHO grohl unfairly takes the spear for the failure of UVA sports in general (similar complaints could be made of their basketball program) that might easily fall on the AD. saying UVA football is a failure turns a blind eye to the inconsistent history of the program and the state dominance of v-tech.
by the chairman211 on Jul 15, 2007 10:32 PM CDT reply actions
Interesting take
I'm no expert in UVA athletics, but that's a far more thoughtful take on this than you typically hear. Usually - and you're right here - Groh takes the brunt of the criticism.
The b-ball program is moving in the right...
direction, though.
If Rick Barnes left Texas, Leito would be my first choice, hands down.
The Grohster is something different altogether. With all that talent one has to wonder why it doesn't produce.
man
I go to DC for a 4 day vacation and look what happens when I'm gone. C'mon guys.
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