Pluralistic Ignorance and the Conservative Lag of College Football in its Hiring of Black Head Coaches
This topic has the possibility of being incendiary and, as a result, I must ask that everyone keep their tone civil and their comments related to college football and not politics in general. Further, this is a nuanced topic, not a black and white one, if you'll pardon the unintended yet nevertheless incisive pun, and thus I expect the same level of discourse in the comments. Thanks.
This season, Tyrone Willingham, Ron Prince and Sylvester Croom were all either fired or given a nudge out the door at major college football programs. They all are also black. At the same time, zero black coaches have been hired at any schools, leaving only three black coaches at the division I level: Randy Shannon at Miami, Kevin Sumlin at Houston, and Turner Gill at Buffalo. The firings of Willingham, Prince and Croom (for the purposes of this article, we'll just say they were fired) were not necessarily unjustified, especially in the case of Willingham. But the paucity of black head coaches in division 1 college football is astonishing and, to my mind, sad. And now comes rampant speculation that Auburn was uneasy about hiring Turner Gill away from Buffalo (where he has turned an unmeasurably moribund program into a bowl team) because of potential backlash from the Tiger faithful due to the race of Turner Gill's wife, who is white.
It's not that I think racism is exclusively to blame. There are numerous reasons that black head coaches have a hard time getting hired, perhaps most notably the clubby atmosphere of the former head coaches circle from which it seems most head coaching hires are drawn--once you're in the club, getting fired is just a means to the end of getting another job somewhere else, but good luck getting into the club in the first place if you're young, as most black head coaching candidates are. And insofar as I do think racism is to blame for this lack of black head coaches, it's more the notion that racism exists than the actual existence of racism that is the progenitor of such a sad state of affairs. Social psychologists call it pluralistic ignorance and I'll explain what I mean by it after the jump.

A comparison of college football to the NFL is apples and oranges, but the very nature of the difference between the apple and the orange is the basis of why one has a greater problem than the other (metaphorically speaking, of course; both apples and oranges are delicious). NFL teams hire far greater percentages of black head coaches than college football teams. That is, the higher football league (in terms of level of competition) hires far more black head coaches than the lower league. So it's clearly not the case that people in a position to evaluate a head coach automatically think black men can't be head coaches. So are we to conclude that college athletic directors are just more racist than professional owners/GMs? I certainly doubt that as a general statement. So what's different about the NFL as opposed to college football? There seem to be two important factors: (1) an NFL head coach only has to worry about football, and (2) the NFL has the Rooney Rule, which requires teams to interview minority candidates for open head coaching positions.
Factor (1): A college head football coach has numerous duties beyond coaching football, from recruiting to fundraisting to gladhanding alumni and boosters, and this is much of the reason why black assistant coaches rarely become black head coaches in college football. It's quite a different thing to be in charge of coaching football players and calling football plays than it is to be the face of a college football program, with all that such a position entails. And because of the pluralistic ignorance of those in charge of hiring head coaches, they seem to have a widespread belief, particularly at southern schools, that a black coach would have a tougher time than a white coach succeeding at the non-football aspects of being a head coach, which would in turn affect the performance of the football team.
Pluralistic ignorance refers to the idea that several members of a cultural group have different ideas than the group at large, but for fear of the repercussions of expressing these dissenting ideas, they all keep quiet such that every dissenting member of the group believes that everyone else in the group but themselves endorses the group norm. This leads to what Deborah Prentice and Dale Miller call "conservative lag"--in which public norms lag behind private attitudes because everyone believes the group norm is different than it actually is.
Generally speaking, it's not that white athletic directors believe that black coaches wouldn't be able to handle the non-football duties of being a head coach because they believe that black coaches are somehow inferior; rather, it's that they believe this because they also believe that their fans, boosters and alumni are just prejudiced enough to not treat the black coach the same as a white coach. Are they right or are they operating in a state of pluralistic ignorance, meaning that most people would be on board with the hiring of a black head coach, but everyone assumes that no one else would be? And even if they are right, should it matter?
Let's take the first question first. I have no idea if they're right or not; the whole point of pluralistic ignorance is that outwardly expressed opinions can be deceiving. But athletic directors need to be aware that there's a possibility that their fans, boosters and alumni aren't as racist as the ADs think they are. And beyond that, I think racism exists far less in sports than it does in general society. Prejudice might exist to the same extent, but while an overt racist might not want a black family living next door to him, he's more than happy to root for the black running back of his favorite team. I don't mean to condone this behavior, but rather to elucidate the fact that this behavior exists--college football fans are generally pretty willing to look past whatever racist beliefs they hold if it means winning football games. Would a black head coach get less leeway from boosters, alumni and fans than a white head coach? Maybe. But that doesn't mean they're opposed to the hiring of one.
Now on to the second question: even if an AD is right and his "constituents" don't want a black head coach, is that a valid reason for not hiring one? It's an interesting question. ADs certainly shouldn't be conduits for the racism of their university's football fans, but if the very hiring of a black football coach would potentially cause that football coach to fail for lack of institutional support, should that be taken into consideration in the hiring process? If an AD knew 100%, then perhaps yes. Sad but maybe necessary given the fact that a black coach who is destined to fail for lack of institutional support might do more damage to the notion of a successful black head football coach than not hiring one at all. But in the end, the conversation, interesting as it is, turns out to be moot because the point of this entire discussion is that no one knows for sure whether fans, boosters and alumni would support a black head coach or not. Thus, to publicly say, "Yes, I believe that there should be more black head coaches" while simultaneously refusing to take any such qualified black coaches under serious consideration because of something you think you know (but that may actually just be the result of conservative lag) is nothing short of a complete cop out of your supposed principles.
Factor (2): This is where the idea of a "Rooney Rule" for college football would be beneficial. Without debating the merits of affirmative action (this is certainly not the place for it), I don't think no one is calling for it in hiring policies here, only in the interview process in order to compensate for the usually unconscious (but sometimes conscious) bias of ADs in their coaching searches: if you never interview a black candidate, you're never going to hire one either. Now, requiring you to seriously interview black candidates does not in turn require you to hire a black head coach, but tangible benefits of the required interview exist. Most notably, it forces a school to slow down the process and think harder about who might be the best candidate rather than making a beeline for someone already established at a head coaching position (who are usually white). Do you think Texas A&M might have been better served by being forced to interview someone like Kevin Sumlin, as some fans clamored for, rather than making a beeline towards noted white man (and ruiner of dreams) Mike Sherman? But they didn't. They hired Sherman approximately 18 seconds after Franchione resigned. Luckily for Sumlin, UH scooped him up. But with all due respect to UH, they are not A&M when it comes to the college football world (even if they have been better than A&M on the field for the past 5 years or so). An A&M hiring (especially given the university's stereotyped rural culture) would have meant so much more symbolically than a UH hiring (given its status as an urban university with the most diverse campus in the country).
And beyond that, required interviews force universities and their fan bases to accept the possibility of a black head coach. Again, it's very easy to lament the lack of black head coaches but never fully be comfortable with hiring one for whatever reason. Serious interviews are the first step towards appearing head coach-like just as "appearing presidential" is a major step towards making voters comfortable with the idea of voting for you in an election. Familiarity breeds understanding before it eventually moves on to beget contempt.
So what effect did the Rooney Rule have on the NFL? Well, the number of black head coaches rose from 6% to 22% in 3 years. This without any impetus whatsoever to hire black coaches, only to interview them. Coincidence? Perhaps. But it's a striking one if it is. (For further information on the Rooney Rule and its effect on the NFL, see this NYU Law Review note on the topic. Full disclosure: I was in the same class at law school with the author of this note and maybe met him once, maybe not, I'm not sure. We didn't really know each other.)
There are several issues with a mandatory interview process such as this, and most of them stem from the possibility of disregard for the spirit of the rule. That is, ADs will treat their mandatory interviews as tokens, and black head coaching candidates will constantly wonder if they are such tokens. This happened in the NFL once when the uber-competent Matt Millen decided that he wanted to hire Steve Mariucci, but he still had to interview a black head coaching candidate so he called some up and they all said no because they knew he was just going to hire Mariucci anyway. The Lions went ahead and hired Mariucci without interviewing a minority candidate and they got fined by the NFL, as they should have, because they violated the spirit of the rule, which is to force teams to give legitimate consideration to minority candidates. In this way, it's sort of a self-regulating system.
Another problem is that the NCAA has claimed that they likely don't have the authority to enforce such a rule. I have no idea if that's true, though the administration of college football is certainly decentralized (except when it comes to an athlete borrowing a friend's car, in which case the power is strangely centralized and autocratic), but conferences certainly would have that power. The NCAA's abdication of authority is no excuse for another entity to not take up the cause.
Conclusion: The take-home point of this article is not really to advocate for a form of the Rooney Rule in college football, though I do think that it would be a step in the right direction to cure this college football ill. The real purpose of this article is to diagnose that ill in the first place. And I think that, for the most part, it's not racism on the part of ADs, fans, boosters, alumni, or anyone else. I think it has a lot to do with the perception on the part of ADs that such racism exists: that black head coaches wouldn't be able to succeed in the non-football aspects that come along with the head coaching job at a university, not because of their inferiority but because of the unwillingness of the team's fans to accept a black coach. But to use such pluralistic ignorance as an excuse to not even interview, let alone hire, any minorities for a head coaching job is borderline disingenuous and is certainly detrimental to the sport of college football.
Comments
The Rooney Rule...
would definitely have put a cramp on the Muschamp head coach in waiting situation. I’m guessing Texas would have just let Muschamp go rather than interviewing a black candidate for the job, which is to exist at some future point that is as of yet uncertain. I’m guessing Sumlin wouldn’t last long at UH if he’d already signed a contract to coach UT once Mack retires.
And it clearly wouldn’t have helped in the Auburn situation because they interviewed Gill.
by Texas Wahoo on
Dec 19, 2008 1:23 PM CST
reply
actions
0 recs
If I may
The point is not to solve individual situations, but to affect the landscape in the long run. If people get used to the idea of black head coaches interviewing, thats a step toward them accepting them in the actual capacity. To reuse the Obama reference, theres no way he competes in votes, if they couldn’t visualize that he could be the president. Which is why I would never win, I just cant wear that many suits and pull it off.
Maybe it doesn’t affect Texas, Auburn, KState, or even Iowa State this year. But increased interviews, as witnessed by the NFL, will lead to more hirings, and more hirings alone will lead to additional hirings. Changing the perception, and bringing out the actual norm by forcing the issue of the pluralistic ignorance to the forefront to remove the public norm lag.
Personally I dont know how I feel about the Rooney rule, but that was a good read BZ, and provided a lot to think about.
by BoddickerIsClutch on
Dec 19, 2008 1:49 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Perhaps
But it seems like at least one black coach is interviewed for every opening in college football. I’m not sure whether the Rooney Rule would have an affect or not, but it just seems like most programs are interviewing at least one black coach already, so it wouldn’t affect them.
by Texas Wahoo on
Dec 19, 2008 2:41 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
But all arent required to.
If Texas had to interview a minority, and conducted an honest search for a candidate to go against Mushamp to sign that contract for example, even if Muschamp won out, that adds notoriety to the minority that Texas gave a serious look to. Maybe Iowa State then gives him a look, or UTSA, or Washington, or whoever…
Eventually the idea is it trickles down to get those qualified candidates names out there and people get used to the idea.
Its like when Mike Singletary was interviewing for Baylor, people were all of the sudden all hyped up for him to be a head coach. Did that help him to get to where he is now in San Fran? Probably. The Rooney rule would aim to increase those happenings.
by BoddickerIsClutch on
Dec 19, 2008 2:50 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
you clear don't understand the Rooney rule
interviewing a black coach doesnt mean we have to hire them
my first born shall be named vy
by hookemkp on
Dec 19, 2008 3:24 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Sure you don't
But do you really think Texas is going to go out and interview Mack Brown’s successor outside of the program before Mack retires? It wouldn’t make sense for anyone. If we’re not seriously considering hiring them, then we’re just Detroit from the example given.
I didn’t know that there was an exception for coaches in waiting though.
by Texas Wahoo on
Dec 19, 2008 3:56 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
why not?
Are we 100% sure that Muschamp will be the headcoach we all expect him to be?
I think if there are other possibilities out there we should definitely explore them. I dont think there is anything wrong with considering a possibility of hiring a black coach if he is the right guy and brings right attitude to the program. Texas is THE best job in country and coaches would die to come to coach at Texas.
Also, when talking about finding a successor within the program, I believe the coach that succeeded Darryl Royal was within the program and he didnt exactly continue the success.
Under current trend of changing DC every 2 years or so, I agree with Muschamp hire and I think that was the right call, but plenty of things can happen in his young coaching career.
my first born shall be named vy
by hookemkp on
Dec 19, 2008 4:05 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I'm not suggesting that Muschamp is clearly the right guy for the job
I’m just suggesting that there is no way that Texas starts a nationwide coaching search to find someone to agree to be Texas’ head coach at some undetermined time in the future, depending on how long Muschamp wanted to coach. They just locked up Muschamp because they wanted him to remain the DC/stay in the program for the foreseeable future.
by Texas Wahoo on
Dec 19, 2008 4:15 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
um
I believe the coach that succeeded Darryl Royal was within the program and he didnt exactly continue the success.
Fred Akers came from outside the program, and his hiring was due in part to a desire from the Board of Regents for there to be a more “button-down, professional” image for the football program, b/c Royal and his guitar-picking friends like Willie Nelson were too “country”.
by Beergut on
Dec 20, 2008 2:44 AM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Actually, you're wrong.
He had been an assistant coach at Texas from 1966 to 1975, when he left to become the head coach of Wyoming in 1975. He served there two years, leading them to an 8-4 record in ’76 and a Fiesta Bowl berth. Texas hired him in 1977. He was a known commodity. The farmed him out for two years and brought him back.
Used to sit next to him in Goody Woo’s barbershop many times.
Akers had a 73% winning percentage at Texas with two regular season undefeated teams but lost both bowl games and one great chance for a MNC in ’84 Cotton. Great defenses, but he had hell the last four years. Had a winning record against OU.
by whills on
Dec 20, 2008 5:12 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Actually 2 Great Chances ...
‘78 Cotton Bowl was better chance for MNC, but we got waxed by Golden domers & oodles of overconfidence on our part. We were No. 1 going in to the bowls. Pitiful waste to Earl’s career-end.
84 MNC would have taken some work w/ Miami & Kosar pulling it out on Nebraska 31-30 (“The greatest team of all time” as pundits frequently proclaimed NU all year) & Nebraska was No. 1 going in to the bowls.
by HalfmileHorn on
Dec 22, 2008 1:21 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I had high hopes for that game myself.
But we lost our offense. Lam Jones was injured (hamstring, I think); I can still see that play where he came down awkwardly on a pass down the middle which should have gone for a TD. Then Earl had a problem (I think it was Earl) and suddenly our offense was gone; we couldn’t stretch the field and we couldn’t run effectively. We had the defense to win, and if those two hadn’t gone down, I felt sure we could have. But 38-11 looked pretty definite in retrospect.
In 1978 we were well placed in the polls at #2 going into the Cotton Bowl and if we had beaten NC, we should have moved up. That was almost a natural in those days. Don’t remember exactly but I think Miami was #5 – we had a good edge at any rate. Both games were tight and Miami only won by a point, 31-30.
by whills on
Dec 24, 2008 11:58 AM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Excellent article
Excellent article, but a couple of factual points to clarify:
1) New Mexico hired a black head coach this year, Mike Locksley, so we there are 4 black coaches out of 120 (3.3%).
2) Auburn did interview Gill which, in effect, is what actually got them into trouble.
To expound on point #2, Auburn took a 5-19 coach that had failed in his first two years at Iowa State versus a coach that had succeeded in turning around the worst D-IA school in the country. It’s that side-by-side comparison that just looks really, really bad. Had they just not interviewed Gill, I don’t think there is this degree of outrage at the hire.
by DoubleB on
Dec 19, 2008 1:36 PM CST
reply
actions
0 recs
As I said, the issue here isn't really the Rooney Rule, it's the Pluralistic Ignorance.
I think requiring schools to interview minority candidates would help them get over their hesitance somewhat, but my main point wasn’t that universities should be interviewing more candidates, it’s that they should be hiring more because there are plenty of qualified ones.
by billyzane on
Dec 19, 2008 2:45 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Also, thanks for the clarification on the number.
by billyzane on
Dec 19, 2008 2:47 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Ron English..
was just hired for Eastern Michigan’s coaching job.
by vy til i die on
Dec 20, 2008 10:43 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
They
also interviewed Rodney Garner, a former player, who is black.
Thirty-Six to Nothing
by Bens4vcobra on
Dec 19, 2008 4:10 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
How many required interviews
for Hispanics, Asians, Native Americans, Homosexuals, Elderly, Youthful, Women, Jews, Atheists, et al?
May Colt be with you. Yeah, that's right.
by bfaut86 on
Dec 19, 2008 2:16 PM CST
reply
actions
0 recs
Under the Rooney rule, just one.
Though it depends on exactly how “minority” was defined in the language of the rule.
by Heart of a Muschampion on
Dec 19, 2008 2:42 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Elderly are well represented in the head coaching ranks.
Youths are rarely considered for any CEO-level job, sports or not.
The rest of the groups I dont know, but I know theres a lot more Black athletes in college football today than there are Hispanic Atheist Women.
by BoddickerIsClutch on
Dec 19, 2008 2:55 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
What logical correlation is there
between the number of Black athletes and the number of Black head coaches?
On the subject of the number of Black athletes, should athletic programs be required to actively recruit a particular number of White athletes to even the playing field, per se?
May Colt be with you. Yeah, that's right.
by bfaut86 on
Dec 19, 2008 4:37 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
The point
is that people are trying to break the common perception that black coaches can’t coach as well as white coaches.
Problem: Black coaches are not given the same opportunities to be headcoaches
NOT a problem: All athletes (black, white, hispanics, jews, asians) are given same opportunities to compete/be measured against one another…on the field. Hence there is no reason to actively recruit athletes of a race.
my first born shall be named vy
by hookemkp on
Dec 19, 2008 5:06 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Common perception?
Is that really a common perceptions today? I don’t see any evidence that there is a common perception that black coaches can’t coach as well.
by Texas Wahoo on
Dec 19, 2008 5:16 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
How do you figure?
Do you mean a short, skinny white kid has the “same opportunity” to compete for a spot on the basketball team as a big black guy, but a qualified and talented black coach does not have the “same opportunity” to compete for a head coaching job as an unprepared and less talented white coach? Isn’t that just speculation, or what do you base that assumption on? Just because there are less black head coaches does not necessarily mean there is a problem. Perhaps there are simply not as many talented black coaches out there; much as there are not many short, skinny white kids who can compete in basketball at a Division I level.
May Colt be with you. Yeah, that's right.
by bfaut86 on
Dec 19, 2008 5:39 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Good article, but...
it seems like throughout the article you are saying that ADs aren’t hiring black coaches because they think their constituency may not accept them (rather than the ADs not accepting them). Are you basing that on anything besides a hunch and some speculation about the Auburn coaching search?
by Texas Wahoo on
Dec 19, 2008 2:43 PM CST
reply
actions
0 recs
It's a theory, absolutely. This is an opinion article, not a news article.
It’s certainly possible that some ADs are just racists who don’t think a black man can be as good a head coach as a white man. But then you look at the college football landscape and there’s no way that the fact that there are 4 black head coaches out of 119 is just the result of overt racism. There’s something else at work here and this was my attempt to explain it.
by billyzane on
Dec 19, 2008 2:47 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I can appreciate that.
I guess it just seemed like you were saying it was true with statements like:
“But athletic directors need to be aware that there’s a possibility that their fans, boosters and alumni aren’t as racist as the ADs think they are.”
They only need to be aware of that if they actually think their constituencies are racist – which I don’t see any evidence of other than speculation that Auburn made their decision because of that.
by Texas Wahoo on
Dec 19, 2008 3:16 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
BillyZ
I live in Alabama and can tell you first hand your assumption is completely incorrect. Local papers across this state did poll after poll and the majority of Auburn fans wanted Turner Gill, and it wasn’t even close. Thus, the backlash when Chizook was hired. If anyone was apprehensive about bringing a black head coach it was isolated to admins themselves, not the Auburn family in general.
Thirty-Six to Nothing
by Bens4vcobra on
Dec 19, 2008 4:15 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
You missed the point.
The whole point was that fans ARE ready for a black head coach but that ADs don’t believe that they are.
by billyzane on
Dec 20, 2008 5:55 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I laughed
The sum total of your evidence for your pluralistic ignorance theory is that 1. there are only four black head coaches and 2. a baseless rumor you heard about Turner Gill.
This is contradicted by the fact that the Auburn fanbase openly and vocally rooted for Gill to be hired during the coaching search. So even if Auburn’s AD did fear a backlash from his racist fanbase (which you have no direct evidence for whatsoever) he probably would’ve been dissuaded from this position by the fact that a significant portion of Auburn fans were essentially asking him to hire Gill.
This is a classic example of Occam’s Butterknife, where simpler explanations are ignored in favor of more convoluted, emotionally satisfying answers.
by andy_wooster on
Dec 21, 2008 12:04 AM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Bingo
nail on the head.
Thirty-Six to Nothing
by Bens4vcobra on
Dec 23, 2008 12:58 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Interesting theory, great read.
I would like to see the Rooney rule implemented in College Football, but I doubt that it would be as effective as it has been in the Pros. Unfortunately, I think that you would see numerous instances of the Mariucci/Lions scenario.
It would help if there were more minority offensive/defensive coordinators, although I’m not sure how you would affect that change. It seems to me that by increasing the minority presence in the lower coaching ranks, the head coaching jobs would eventually follow.
by ctex80 on
Dec 19, 2008 3:19 PM CST
reply
actions
0 recs
Norm Chow
Would have a lot to say about this. He has been in the “lower coaching ranks” for a long time, but has yet, to obtain a head coaching position. Out of all minorities, he has to have the single greatest gripe about the entire system. What more could he have done..
This blurb is from the UCLA site.
Before joining the Titans, Chow spent 32 productive years coaching at the collegiate level, tasting every form of success at that level, including three national titles (BYU, 1984; USC 2003, 2004), tutoring three Heisman Trophy winners, 27 bowl games, and three times being named assistant coach of the year. He left an indelible mark on the college game as he worked with eight of the NCAA’s top 30 career passing efficiency leaders.
by Hookem4life84 on
Dec 19, 2008 3:32 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
And I'm sure that there are numerous other cases...
Charlie Strong, in particular, (and as amorphous suggests) should have been a head coach a long time ago. I’m a Titans fan, and was not impressed with Chow AT ALL when he was here.
Either way, I still think it would help in the long run. Those are two high profile cases, but there aren’t many minority coordinators out there, and that is the talent pool for the majority of first time head coaches at the college level.
by ctex80 on
Dec 19, 2008 3:52 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I’ve heard it reported that Chow is an absolute disaster of an interview, for whatever reason. If memory serves, he also turned down an offer three years ago to take over a D-I team, didn’t he?
by Tech92 on
Dec 19, 2008 4:01 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
i don't believe that is true
my first born shall be named vy
by hookemkp on
Dec 19, 2008 4:08 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Which part...interview or job refusal?
I can’t provide evidence for either after a cursory google search…
by Tech92 on
Dec 19, 2008 4:10 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
the job refusal
my first born shall be named vy
by hookemkp on
Dec 19, 2008 4:23 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
According to ESPN
he got no offers from three interviews.
by amorphous on
Dec 19, 2008 4:14 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Word here in Tennessee was that he was a terrible interview
and that there were character questions. Completely unsubstantiated, but that was the reason bandied about.
by ctex80 on
Dec 19, 2008 4:21 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Couldn't agree with you more
the first point was exactly what I was thinking when first heard the news that black coaches association was suing NCAA.
my first born shall be named vy
by hookemkp on
Dec 19, 2008 3:28 PM CST
reply
actions
0 recs
Thoughts provoked
First off, I see geographic correlation between racism and popularity of football. My guess is that a disproportionate number of coaching positions are in areas where racism, perceived or practiced, is most common. Despite the election results, there remains a segment of the population, mainly rural and southern, where racial attitudes and football play a defining role in the culture. We saw a thread of this in the Limbaugh/McNabb controversy where the suggestion was essentially that blacks are being given favorable treatment, invoking resentment against ‘affirmative action.’ A school that serves such a population or depends on it for support has an uphill battle to hire a black coach. There have been movies made about this.
Second, I can see market factors driving NFL decisions that do not weigh as heavily in NCAA sports. The NFL ‘product’ is more appealing if it has a more balanced racial image, so there is more pressure from the top to see that the league moves toward that balance. Pro teams also tend to market to a larger base than individual colleges do and there are no presidents with political careers on the line. At the same time, the best black coaching candidates are less likely to feel they will be coaching under a microscope in the pro ranks and may tend to gravitate there.
Finally, there are so many colleges that a large number of head coach hires tend to be head coaches from lesser schools. You start off in highschool (or below) and work your way up through the ranks, perhaps with a short stopover as an offensive or defensive coordinator at the top level. So the field for potential college coaches is shaped partly by the racial mix at the highschools and small colleges. In the pros, however, it is fairly common for a former player to become a position coach on retirement and move up from there. And with a high percentage of blacks in the NFL, the number of head coaches rising on this path is much higher than in college.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
by Caradoc on
Dec 19, 2008 3:30 PM CST
reply
actions
0 recs
Excellent thoughts, all valid.
There are plenty of reasons why things are still so bad. No single explanation gets you all the way there.
by billyzane on
Dec 19, 2008 3:39 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Black NFL Coaches - regional
I was trying to think of all of the black NFL coaches and it seems like almost all of them are for teams in the Midwest. Which is interesting because none of them are for teams in the South, but also the Northeast/West – but perhaps I’ve forgotten a couple?
Indianapolis, Cincinati, Cleveland, Chicago, Pittsburgh, and Kansas City. All of those coaches are from cities that are actually pretty close together geographically. It might just be a coincidence, but it’s really strange nonetheless. If the lions fire their coach, they can make it a clean sweep in that area.
by Texas Wahoo on
Dec 19, 2008 4:07 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Tony Dungy was at Tampa for the longest time before going to Colts
my first born shall be named vy
by hookemkp on
Dec 19, 2008 4:10 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
And then they fired him and he went to the midwest
I personally don’t think geography has much to do with it – but doesn’t it seem crazy that all of the black head coaches are in the same 5 contiguous state area? (although Kansas I guess is not next to Illinois, so not quite)
by Texas Wahoo on
Dec 19, 2008 4:52 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
This is crazy
its just sad that we even have to talk about this at all i love Gene but i don’t think he wasn’t right for the job Gill was a way better choice in my eye’s
by KingMack on
Dec 19, 2008 3:35 PM CST
reply
actions
0 recs
…but even more so was Gary Patterson, Chris Petereson, Mike Leach, et al. Would it have been racist if they named one of those men as coach?
I fail to see racism in the Auburn hire in particular. I also don’t believe there’s a systemic problem with the number of black coaches in the D-I ranks. Had Croom, Prince, Whillingham and others had more success on the field this year, would this even be a topic for discussion.
Interesting that Syracuse, with a black AD, is not part of the discussion after hiring a white coach – and bypassing Gill…
by Tech92 on
Dec 19, 2008 4:09 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Irony
How ironic!! I didn’t even realize w/ the Auburn situation distracting, couple that w/ the movie ‘Express’ and seems like much outrage should be focused in their direction.
by HalfmileHorn on
Dec 19, 2008 4:25 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Who would you hire?
The guy who took a program with a modicum of success within the last decade and drove it into the ground or the guy who took the worst program in Division I-A and made them conference champions?
The issue, and certainly the perception, isn’t that Gill was bypassed (frankly I don’t think he was a good fit for that particularly job), but that he was bypassed for a guy who has clearly done a worse job than he in the head coaching ranks.
If Auburn had hired any of the three guys mentioned in your comment, the article we’re posting about would not have been written.
Regarding the Syracuse situation: Marrone had the full backing of the New York High School Coaches Association for nearly a month before he was hired, he’s a former player there and understands that situation as well as anyone. Had Syracuse gone out and hired say the guy at Washington State, the uproar would have been in their direction.
by DoubleB on
Dec 19, 2008 5:49 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
"he’s a former player there and understands that situation as well as anyone."
Chizik is a former coach at Auburn and presumably is well aware of the situation there.
I don’t get the Chizik bashing. He’s only beed ISU’s head coach for two years. He hasn’t drove it into the ground, he just hasn’t turned it around yet. He might not have turned it around, or he may have – it was too early to say. But he was a hell of a D Coordinator at two big time programs (including the one that was doing the hiring).
by Texas Wahoo on
Dec 19, 2008 6:22 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
“He hasn’t drove it into the ground, he just hasn’t turned it around yet.”
Huh? Dan McCarney won 7 games in 5 of his last 7 seasons at Iowa State and left as one of the most successful coaches in school history. His last team was 4-8. There was nothing to “turn around.” By Iowa State standards it was a very good program. By any standards, it was at least average. At the moment it’s pretty close to where Syracuse is. Gene Chizik was well on his was way to being the Greg Robinson of Iowa State until Auburn came calling.
Greg Robinson isn’t a bad DC either. In fact, Big East coaches thought his schemes on defense were excellent. Unfortunately being a great DC doesn’t make you a great head coach. They are completely different jobs and require different skill sets.
by DoubleB on
Dec 19, 2008 8:05 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Consensus
Think you identified the consensus exactly. I believe Chizik is a formidable Defensive Coordinator, no more than that. I would easily rate Gill above Chizik – whom I believe made a soft landing, ahead of the posse at ISU.
The resulting outrage or frustration or whatever you call it demanded rationalization compared w/ Auburn’s former success. Unfortunately, that transition morphed into racist accusations – fairly or unfairly. Contrast this hire w/ that of Saban at Alabama (a meaningful comparison due to rivalry & where I don’t recall any black coaches interviewed) where millions were thrown at the new savior w/ a MNC track record. Racism blurred in the background behind the “crazy money” given to Saban.
by HalfmileHorn on
Dec 19, 2008 4:17 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
It's actually a problem on an institutional scale
This is not just within the athletic departments.
Look at the racial breakdown of UT students, then compare that to Texas as a whole. At UT, blacks and hispanics (as well as whites) are underrepresented, and Asians are waaaaay overrepresented. And somehow, UT still scores highly on US News’s Diversity Index.
Consider schools that rank highly on Washington Monthly’s rankings, which take into account “social mobility” (i.e. making poorer students more wealthy, rather than making wealthy students super-wealthy, hence the lack of the Ivies at the top). You would think this must have a fairly strong correlation with diversity. Their top ranked school? A&M. Actually not so diverse. Or UCLA, #2. Then, the next non-UC school is Michigan. None of them are really even close to proportional. The problem of disproportionate representation affects all parts of many (if not most) major universities.
Universities, which are supposed to be leaders in providing opportunity and rewarding people on a meritocratic basis, need to take a conscious, overall approach to addressing racial imbalance. (Certainly, many are. Maybe the fruits of this labor will be harvested one day, but not yet.) From the student body, to the faculty, to the administration, to the athletic department. Coaches are the tip of the iceberg: small, but very visible.
by amorphous on
Dec 19, 2008 4:10 PM CST
reply
actions
0 recs
What?
At UT, blacks and hispanics (as well as whites) are underrepresented, and Asians are waaaaay overrepresented.
How is 55% of White students at UT being underrepresented? and what the hell is wrong with Asians being overrepresented at UT?
I seriously don’t think there is any problem with racial diversity at UT. You can’t exactly match student demographics to the state demographics. That would be an improbable and unfair task for all.
my first born shall be named vy
by hookemkp on
Dec 19, 2008 4:21 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
My mistake
White non-hispanics are only 48.3% of the Texas (statewide) population. Whites are slightly overrepresented, which makes hispanics that much more underrepresented.
No, you can’t exactly match demographics. There are barriers to doing this, of course. But you can come a lot closer than 4% black in a 12% black state, and 15% hispanic in a 36% hispanic state. The problem with Asians being overrepresented (almost fivefold) is that it would be disingenuous for UT to claim that their minority student population is close to Texas as a whole.
by amorphous on
Dec 19, 2008 4:31 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Is it also unfair
that there are so few White students at Huston-Tillotson?
May Colt be with you. Yeah, that's right.
by bfaut86 on
Dec 19, 2008 4:45 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Huston-Tillotson is a private methodist college.
The University of Texas is the premier public educational establishment in the state of Texas, the representative of the state as a whole at an educational level. So yeah, I’d say there’s a little bit of difference between the two.
by billyzane on
Dec 20, 2008 6:02 PM CST
up
reply
actions
1 recs
Yes your mistake
um…I believe the whole diversity problem has to do with underrepresentation of a minority group(s).
It has never been about overrepresentation of a certain minority group.
Underrepresentation of black coaches in NFL/NCAA is a big issue to be debated, but we hardly ever talk about overrepresentation of hispanic players in MLB being a problem.
I believe the number of hispanic enrollment has growing every year and I think UT is one of the universities that work hard to generate diversity while maintaining competitive academics
my first born shall be named vy
by hookemkp on
Dec 19, 2008 4:47 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
You're joking, right?
I hope you know that even UT itself often does not treat Asians as “minorities.” In fact, there was a brief “mistake” by the school administration for inviting Asians to the minority banquet or ceremony for honors students. UT had to embarrassingly take back those invitations and tried to save face by inviting an Asian student to emcee the event. They were refused, obviously.
How many Asians are on the football team?
How many Asians are on the basketball team?
How many Asians are on the baseball team?
Somewhere close to zero, I’d imagine. Of course, since it just happens to be the case that there are no Asians at the University of Texas qualified enough to fill these roles, they aren’t on these athletic teams. That’s fine. But when Asians or whoever are qualified to fill the academic ranks, this is “overrepresentation?”
The University’s goal is NOT to “represent” everyone. It’s not. It’s to give an education to people who merit it. If it happens to be skewed to one race, then that is not the school’s fault. If an Asian complained about the lack of representation in athletics (and I’ve heard it), I’d simply say to him that he needs to look internally in the culture and see what can be done to slowly change that. What irks me that we get all this bullcrap about “merit” when it comes to athletics but try to brush that under the rug when it gets to academics.
Diversity is a nice goal to have, but if it ever interferes to the point where you are replacing qualified individuals with less qualified ones, then that, my friends, is called racial discrimination. I can only imagine what kind of ruckus people who raise if some random Asian kid got a scholarship for football just for the sake of having an Asian (I would be the first to call it stupid).
Asians, as a population, score higher on tests, have higher GPA’s, and take more AP classes in high school and the subsequent tests. You tell me why they are “overrepresented.” They’re not; they are fairly represented for the things they have achieved. African Americans, as a population, tend to be better basketball players and achieve higher things on the court, and thus this is show in virtually all the different levels of basketball. You don’t take something from one group unfairly just to satisfy “representation.” You undermine the very work of other groups.
by TheElusiveShadow on
Dec 19, 2008 8:59 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
More to the point.
There are plenty of qualified applicants to UT. The question is how to pick from them. But the reality is that the the quality of primary education varies across the state and the lower quality schools are in primarily minority dominated areas. So there is an inbuilt problem in the state before the college level.
But since education is supposed to increase the ability of a person why do we take the best educated as a basis for college. Logically it would be more productive for the community to take the less well educated first, the best qualified have proven they can they take advantage of their opportunities and will continue to where ever they are. The problem is those who can’t, they are the ones who would benefit the most from more education.
There is a very real historical basis for racial prejudice especially in the south. The Older folks in positions of power now would have grown up under the system strict racial separation which could still affecting their decisions. If that is the case then there needs to be some procedures to offset those old ideals. Which is not the case for why there is less white representation on the athletic teams. My guess is whites have a broader range of choices of opportunities than blacks and whites are encouraged to take advantage of them at a higher rate than other minorities.
HBO ran a documentary on the integration of college football in the south and the last southern schools didn’t start letting blacks on the teams till the early 70’s which is some of the last public institutions to do so. If you consider that slavery ended legally 143 year ago it takes a long time for the culture to overcome prejudice let alone do something to offset it.
It hard to hear that DKR passed up Bubba Smith, a Beaumont native who wanted badly to play for Texas but couldn’t because the team didn’t offer scholarships to blacks at the time.
by Xerxes on
Dec 20, 2008 12:43 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Well I really Wanted.........
Jerry Gray to be our defensive cooordinator and take over for Mack when he left.I think Jerry wanted the job but DeLoss didn’t move fast enough for him so he moved on.
As was stated earlier the head coach does a lot more than coach.He is in and around the state representing the program and the University.Some are excellent Xs and Os guys but are not people persons.
Just think if OU hired Billy Simms to be thier coach.They nearly did his name was Blake though.
by TCB Orange Dino on
Dec 19, 2008 7:57 PM CST
reply
actions
0 recs
Do you think Texas A&M might have been better served by being forced to interview someone like Kevin Sumlin, as some fans clamored for, rather than making a beeline towards noted white man (and ruiner of dreams) Mike Sherman? But they didn’t. They hired Sherman approximately 18 seconds after Franchione resigned. Luckily for Sumlin, UH scooped him up. But with all due respect to UH, they are not A&M when it comes to the college football world (even if they have been better than A&M on the field for the past 5 years or so). An A&M hiring (especially given the university’s stereotyped rural culture) would have meant so much more symbolically than a UH hiring (given its status as an urban university with the most diverse campus in the country).
The only thing holding back Sumlin from attaining the A&M head coaching position (and I heard this from people who know him) was a lack of head coaching experience. The concern with hiring a coach who has only been a coordinator at the top level of the college game is that you don’t want him to have to “learn” to be a head coach on the job when he is at your program. So, you let him take a head coaching job at a non-BCS program, and if he is successful there, he will eventually be offered a head coaching job at a BCS program.
You can’t just hire a minority for the sake of hiring one. UCLA tried that with Karl Dorrell, and look how well that worked out.
I am a huge fan of Sumlin, and have been since he was just a position coach at A&M, but he wouldn’t have been able to do anything with our team this past season. Coaching experience (or lack thereof) doesn’t matter when you are weak along the offensive and defensive lines. That is a personnel issue, not a coaching issue.
The big culprit in the lack of Black head coaches is the lack of Black offensive and defensive coordinators. For all of the claims of texas fans about diversity in Austin, there still hasn’t been a Black offensive or defensive coordinator at texas.
I think nationally the reason for the lack of Black offensive coordinators can be traced somewhat to the lack of Black QB coaches and OL coaches, the two position coaches I think are most often promoted to offensive coordinator. I can’t tell you the last time I saw a Black OL coach at a Division I-A program. The lack of Black QB coaches may be due to the prevailing sentiment at one time that Blacks could not play QB at the highest level (i.e. the NFL), so they certainly couldn’t be qualified to coach the position. I don’t know if this is a fact, I’m just speculating there. I have no explanation for the lack of Black OL coaches in D-IA.
by Beergut on
Dec 20, 2008 3:32 AM CST
reply
actions
0 recs
Lack of black assistant coaches is actually a big issue in College Football.
The problem is they are going to the NFL, because they see it as the easier route to a HC job.
The other issue is that there are not enough black players making the transition to coaching. I think some of the focus and energy being put into this issue needs to be diverted to encouraging more black players who are not NFL bound to become graduate assistants. Without a large talent pool to draw from it is always going to be hard to have more diversity at the highest levels.
by Wells on
Dec 20, 2008 8:36 AM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
it is insanely competitive to get GA positions
although being a player in the program does give you a leg up
by Beergut on
Dec 20, 2008 4:11 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
this is Occam's Razor right here
Wells has summed it up.
The problem is they are going to the NFL, because they see it as the easier route to a HC job.
The other issue is that there are not enough black players making the transition to coaching. I think some of the focus and energy being put into this issue needs to be diverted to encouraging more black players who are not NFL bound to become graduate assistants. Without a large talent pool to draw from it is always going to be hard to have more diversity at the highest levels.
The simplest explanation for the dearth of black head coaches in NCAA football is simply a lack of viable candidates.
by andy_wooster on
Dec 21, 2008 12:11 AM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Occam's Razor is bullshit.
The only way to state Occam’s Razor to make it correct is “The simplest explanation is the easiest to understand.” Yeah, we’re all drawn to the idea that there’s 1 simple thing that causes every other thing. That the only reason the economy collapsed is greedy hedge fund managers manipulating money without regulation. But that’s absurd. It’s one of the reasons probably, but there are a ton of tiny factors that build and influence each other over time, the absence of one of which would alter the end result, perhaps significantly. It’s complete crap to say the simplest explanation is always the right one. If the simplest answer were always the right one, then the theories scientists had thousands of years ago about how things worked would have been right. Occam’s Razor is an idiotic theory (at least in the colloquial sense that you’re using it here, not necessarily in the logical/scientific sense that it was originally intended) and to claim that my theory is wrong or laughable (as you did above) because it’s not simple enough is completely misguided.
And more to the point of what Wells said, look at the first sentence. Why do they think being an assistant coach in the NFL is a better route to being a head coach? Perhaps because they are less likely to get a head coaching job in college than they are in the pros? And why is that? I don’t know for sure, but pluralistic ignorance is a possible explanation. It’s not a simple as you want it to be, buddy.
[Note: while the substance of this is a response to this post of yours, the tone is more a response to your earlier post.]
by billyzane on
Dec 21, 2008 9:14 AM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
You know who "learned on the job" when he took his first head coaching job? Bob Stoops.
He learned so much that he won a national championship in his second year on the job. Yeah, not everyone is Stoops, but I think it’s idiotic to truly believe that as an established school, you have to hire someone with head coaching experience. The whole reason someone with head coaching experience is available is probably that he failed somewhere else.
You’re absolutely right that you shouldn’t hire a coach just to make a statement. Be that statement in the form of hiring a black coach or hiring someone with precious “head coaching experience.”
by billyzane on
Dec 20, 2008 6:08 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I hope I’m not repeating someone else’s post, because I didn’t take the time to read any of them. But I’m getting sick and tired of the whole black and white issue everybody always wants to scream racism usually the people who do so are the racist! I think it’s bulshit that you have to, I repeat, you have to interview a minority coach for the job. I think you should be hired on your merits and how well of a coordinator/coach/etc you are, not because your black,white,mexican,puertorican,etc thats fuckin bulshit. The worst thing that ever happend to this country was affirmitive action, and that is whats now happening in the college world. I don’t care weather your black or white if you have a lot of potential and your black i’m going to hire you over the white guy and vice versa. I just get sick of all the Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton motherfuckers out there with there god damn bulhorns ranting about racism there the god damn racist!
by kcmorse on
Dec 20, 2008 3:54 PM CST
reply
actions
0 recs
“I don’t care weather your black or white if you have a lot of potential and your black i’m going to hire you over the white guy and vice versa.”
I wish those in power had your belief system. The reason why the Auburn situation has pushed this debate to the mainstream is that the black candidate was more qualified than the white candidate and and there are rumors that Gill wasn’t hired because of his interracial marriage. The reason why the debate is about blacks and whites is the history of slavery, Jim Crow laws, other various forms of institutional racism, et cetera, and the fact that blacks have succeeded at football but are not in positions of powers in a sport that has a history of seclusion. The debate doesn’t include Asians, for example, because Asians do not succeed at football therefore an arbitrary reason, that being skin color, isn’t holding that racial group from being in a position of power in football.
This is a very nuanced issue, so please take the time to read BZ’s analysis as well as others arguments. As for the largest political debate, I think our mass media takes arguments of both political spectrum and tries to squeeze them into a 15 second soundbyte without any real analysis. So before dismissing the arguments of Jesse Jackson or Dick Cheney, please take the time to understand the argument in context, instead of just CNN’s 3 bullet point headlines.
Hook 'em
by TarHorn on
Dec 20, 2008 5:02 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
No repetition
Don’t worry. You are the only one to advance this viewpoint. You stated your position quite eloquently, so there will be no need for a followup.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
by Caradoc on
Dec 20, 2008 6:05 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I have never seen a more apt introduction to ones post than this:
I hope I’m not repeating someone else’s post, because I didn’t take the time to read any of them.
Yeah, that pretty much sets you up for what’s next.
by billyzane on
Dec 20, 2008 6:11 PM CST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
There was an interview...
On the radio (but I forget who it was, and I know that hurts the legitimacy somewhat), that made a good point. More than any other factor, Head Coaching selection can be swayed by boosters. (made all the more relevant since more often than not they have DIRECT input on the coach’s SALARY) People decry the boosters as this racist clique of old white men, which may be a completely earned reputation, but one should ask a question (and if I remember correctly, the person posing this question was a former player):
If we think that we need more black head coaches because there are so many black players and obviously the proportion is off, are the players giving back to the university? (AFTER they leave)
If the coaching decision can often be shown to be a “bottom line” type decision (“we wanted X, but the ‘money men’ wanted Y”) then it SEEMS that schools with NFL alumni could EASILY take a piece of that pie by supporting their school. Twenty years ago, success on the field wouldn’t necessarily mean success financially, but today, any top flight player who is in the top of the draft could “buy” themselves into the discussion. Now obviously at the top 5-10 schools (like a Texas) there are some billionaire level people that could drown out a simple “millionaire”, but for the other 100 or so schools, a single player who got drafted could at LEAST require the school to look at black candidates if they were giving money to make it worth the school’s while. (ie. I’ll donate a million dollars, but you need to interview a black coach) Otherwise, if the minorities are saying “you need to hire a black guy” and the racists are saying “you need to hire our boy” and only one side is paying the bills, I think we can all figure out which side is gonna win.
I also think it’s unfair to paint this as a “the south is racist” thing. There’s 120 positions, by your count 3-4 have black head coaches. At least 1 of those is IN the south (Miami) and at least one of the “fired” coaches (Sylvester Croom) was from the south (yeah, he was fired, but he had to have been HIRED before that to BE fired). If you count Texas (the state) as being “south”, which it would be by your political criteria, then 2 of the 3 HCs you listed are in the south. (Miami & Houston) Meaning, there are more black head coaches in the SOUTH than in any other region. Ascribing the whole thing to regional racism (real or imagined) seems ridiculous in that context. Where are the black head coaches at UCLA (new coach last year), or Michigan (new coach last year), or some northeast school?
by HeeroTX on
Dec 22, 2008 11:26 AM CST
reply
actions
0 recs













