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Kerry Collins vs Vince Young: Jeff Fisher's False Choice

This may not be the week to bring it up, as I'm pretty sure the TItans' offense is screwed against the Steelers today No Matter What, but as the Titans have begun to slide back to the pack (2-2 in their last 4, following a 10-0 start), it's time for Tennessee to start looking forward to the playoffs, evaluating their strengths and weaknesses, and identifying areas in which they can immediately improve.

If Goal #1 is making sure Albert Haynesworth is healthy for the playoffs, this post contends that Goal #2 should be that the Tittans' coaching staff (A) properly identifies the offense's weaknesses, (B) addresses where it can and cannot be improved, and (C) systematically begins (starting now) implementing a plan to improve it. 

Star-divide

THE PROBLEM

Following the Titans' ugly loss to Houston last Sunday, SB Nation's Tennessee blogger -- who has a passive (at best) understanding of Vince Young's strengths as a football player -- tentatively raised the question of whether Vince Young should play this week against Pittsburgh, writing:

This is going to be the first pro-Vince Young piece I have written since the meltdown he suffered during and after the season opener.  Let me preface this by saying I am not sure what the answer is.  That is why there is a question mark in the title.  We have to be careful not to overract to yesterday's loss because this team is 12-2 with Kerry Collins as the starter...

The Titans don't ask much of their quarterback, but they do need for him to be able to complete some passes when the other team is in man.  I understand that this group of receivers is sub-par, especially considering the worst receiver in the NFL, Justin McCareins is a part of the group, but they were open a lot yesterday.  Collins just couldn't get the ball to them.

Though that Music City Miracles post is titled "A Case For Vince Young?", it more accurately would be headlined "I'm Not So Sure We Can Win The AFC With Kerry Collins," lamenting that  during the team's 2-2 slide, Collins is "61 of 113 (54%) for 706 yards with 3 touchdowns, 3 interceptions and 2 fumbles."

Those numbers hardly impress, but what Jimmy doesn't mention is that Collins' average yards per attempt during that same stretch (6.24) is up from the previous 9 games in which he started (5.7). Nor does he mention that Collins' completion percentage during the previous 9 games (all wins) was only 59%. The touchdowns per attempt during the good times (1 every 34 attempts) is barely better than the touchdowns per attempt during the last four games (1 per 38 attempts). The only real difference in Collins "Before & After" is that his turnovers are up (3 fumbles, 0 lost + 4 interceptions in 269 attempts during the win streak versus 2 fumbles, 1 lost + 3 interceptions in 113 attempts in the 2-2 streak). 

In short, though the recent uptick in turnovers has brought to MCM's attention Collins' limitations, in reality he's been more or less the same player throughout: Solid, steady, neither strong nor bad. To focus on Collins as the reason the Titans won their first 10 games is to assign a cause to the wrong effect. Tennessee did not start 10-0 because of Kerry Collins; he merely was an admirable quarterback in performing well enough that the team's other strengths were able to shine. 

Now, however, as the playoffs near and other teams are adjusting to Tennessee's strengths -- particularly on offense -- Collins' limitations are being exposed. And that is the problem.

WHEN CONSERVATISM ATTACKS

Where Jimmy's commentary is on target insofar as it properly diagnoses a potentially fatal problem for Tennessee (Collins' limitations against defenses which are adjusting to what the Titans like to do), it's maddeningly myopic in its wholesale failure to comprehend, elucidate, and integrate that which Vince Young adds to an affirmative solution -- other than Not Kerry Collins.

I mention all this not to call to task MCM but because I think that precisely the same problem which plagues this particular Titans fan is that which hamstrings Tennessee head football coach Jeff Fisher. In particular, I'm concerned by what I perceive to be a fundamental misunderstanding as to why Vince Young needs to be on the playing field for the Titans. 

Where MCM and Fisher seem to be understanding week by week The Basic Problem, they simultaneously seem incapable of divorcing themselves from those virtues of Kerry Collins that steadied the team in arriving at this point. And the consequence of those blinders they wear is an inability to evaluate holistically that which would best serve the team heading forwards. 

Sound familiar, Longhorns fans? Though the point of this post is not to suggest that Vince Young is capable of running roughshod on the NFL like he did his collegiate competitors, I lay all this out because Jeff Fisher (and the fans who think like him) seem to me to be limiting themselves/their team in precisely the way that Mack Brown did before he changed the way that he looked at the "problem" on his hands. Consider the similarities:

  • Before Mack Brown "let Vince be Vince," as we now call it, the problem of the Texas offense wasn't at all that the conservative approach to that point had brought poor results for the program, but rather that elevating to the next level required an adjustment -- both in mindset and execution. In tandem, the two unmistakably represented a fundamental shift both in appreciation and implementation of a more diverse offensive attack featuring those things that Vince Young could add with his particular talents.
  • For the Titans, the conservative approach of Jeff Fisher has brought him during his tenure a long period of solid success. And in this year in particular, the solid, conservative approach with Collins has been compatible with allowing to shine the team's considerable strengths elsewhere. The question now is how to elevate to the next level.

So when I see Titans fans set up this false dichotomy of "Collins, the guy who got us to 10-0" versus "Vince Young, the guy who didn't," I shake my head. And not because I think Vince Young capable of dominating the National Football League. Not at all... My head shakes because that thinking nmisassigns a cause (Collins being adequate) to an effect (the Titans' strength in 2008).

WHERE VY FITS IN

In light of the above, I have two conclusory points:

First, Jeff Fisher, MCM, and other Titans fans in the same boat have to dig a lot deeper in analyzing Collins' role in this team to have the right foundational framework to make decisions going forward. I'm all for giving Kerry Collins an enormous amount of credit for stepping in and masterfully providing the kind of steady adequacy this team needed to get off to the start that it did. But that cannot be confused for something more than it is/has been. Collins is today who he has been all year: A steady, good-not-great game manager who can adequately help other elements of a very strong team shine.

Second, and more importantly, understanding the preceding point demands -- in my view -- not just an understanding of what Has Been but what the Best Titans Offensive Team might look like heading forward. In my view, that means an aggressive approach to offensive improvement that includes getting Vince Young involved with this football team. Though there exists room for healthy debate as to whether that be in a limited role (on specially designed sets) or a more robust one (in which he provides Collins-level adequacy but infinitely more upside), any plan for this team's playoff push that does NOT include one component or the other is in my mind a failure.

From there, let the debates begin. Reasonable arguments can me made that Vince Young should be integrated aggressively into everything (or substantial parts of what) the Titans do on offense. (As one of the few who liked the Titans' draft for that reason, this would be my approach.) Or, reasonable minds can make the case that a more limited, strategic role for VInce -- in which he compliments Collins and the existing offense -- would be better. 

In either case, the Titans would be rejecting a too-conservative, wait-until-too-late approach to improvement on offense in favor of an affirmative choice to make the most of everything they have at their disposal. Failure to do so is to misunderstand Collins' actual value, assign in him effects for which he is not the cause, and stubbornly refuse to seek and maximally utilize all of one's offensive weaponry.

Play VY... starting now. Come playoff time, it will make all the difference in the world -- with Vince either a difference-maker in his ability to make plays or his ability simply to create for defenses one more thing to worry about in addition to that which the Titans already present. 

That's the key. And where next you run across an NFL fan who makes this about Collins vs Young, try-try-try to make them understand why that's the wrong question and a false choice. And why the better analysis focuses on pinning down what Young can and should add to this offense.

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Recapturing the Magic

Nov 2009 by GhostofBigRoy - 44 comments

Comments

Display:

Thank you so freaking much.

The VY haters here in Nashville are insufferable (although after last week, some are starting to come around, just like Jimmy). Even at 10-0, I still told everyone that would listen that we can’t win a Super Bowl with Kerry Collins at the helm.

Don’t get me wrong, Collins has done everything that has been asked of him. If Vince had been starting all year, I think the Titans would probably be 11-3 or 10-4 instead of 12-2. But, I would feel much better about their potential than I do with Collins. I just can’t see Kerry Collins going out and leading this team to victory against great teams.

Collins makes Tennessee a very good team. With VY they COULD be great.

by ctex80 on Dec 21, 2008 11:20 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

One other point,

Anyone that compares VY’s ‘07 with Collin’s ’08 is an idiot. Chris Johnson (and the absence of Norm Chow) COMPLETELY voids that comparison.

by ctex80 on Dec 21, 2008 11:30 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

VY's 07 vs Collins' 08 isn't actually that bad...

I haven’t looked at it in over a month but Vince’s numbers from last year actually stacked up pretty evenly with Collins’ back in October: VY vs Collins

by brianb722 on Dec 21, 2008 11:49 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Collins has been average all year...

All the Collins for MVP talk earlier this year (from Peter King etc) drove me nuts. I love the way you phrased it, “steady adequacy” is dead on.

by brianb722 on Dec 21, 2008 11:46 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

The Caretaker Offense

Tennessee’s offense has reminded me more of some of GD’s game plans for OU and even more of several during the Freddy Akers era. Strong, strong defense and an offense only a mother could love. Run, run, run, take care of the ball, good kicking game, buy the D some rest time. Nothing more, nothing less.

Haynesworth is inactive for today. Like in Jaws, they’re going to need a bigger boat against the Steelers. And by that I mean an explicitly more aggressive offense to take the heat off the defense. With the standard Caretaker Offense under Collins, I would expect the Steelers to whip them like step children today, very ugly and painful.

I had thought at the time that last year’s draft was primarily to win the Titans two more games, to get from 10 to 12. They’ve got it and I think that’s it, they’re done, unless A) Haynesworth gets healthy and B) VY emerges from exile. Super Bowl – forget that.

When I think of VY’s problems, I intuitively go back to a pre-season game, specifically the one against Oakland. The Raiders blitzed the living hell out of VY on every play. He got off one pass, which was dropped. He was sacked. He really never had a chance; the OL never slowed down the rush, the hot receivers weren’t viable, the rush covered the outside so there was no where to go. I saw this defensive strategy several times: give VY no time, force fast decisions, control the scramble. The gamble was to force the game plan out of its strictures.

Later, Tennessee and Jeff Fisher never seemed to have an answer to those attacks; more, they just endured until the defense had to slack off. Basically, with no aggressive passing game, with poor receiving, Tennessee fell into the Basic Offense box. Even Kerry Collins could handle that.

Imho, it’s not just a failure to solve basic problems with VY and offense, it’s an incredible waste of talent and money. In music city terms, it’s a Billy Sherrill production with mediocre songs that initially sound good to the ear but are less filling, even with a talent like George Jones, just pablum to keep the dollars rolling in, never a move toward toward fulfillment, much less greatness. The Colonel would be proud.

by whills on Dec 21, 2008 11:48 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

VY was a great college quarterback.

But all this talk about NFL potential and about what “could” happen if you put in VY needs to be put to rest.

Collins is having a better season than VY had in year 1 or 2 of the VY era. There is absolutely no evidence that inserting VY into the lineup at this point in the season is going to help the Titans. The Titans team is 100% behind Collins and to insert VY now would be a slap in the face to the team and perhaps cause an unneccesary rift among the players.

VY will get his chance in the future. Likely, as soon as next year.

Until then, sit back, and enjoy the Kerry Collins show.

by froggiebaby on Dec 21, 2008 12:54 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I liked Kerry Collins so much better back when he was drunk all the time.

________________________________
I will give my shirt for Tennessee today.

by Holly Anderson on Dec 21, 2008 1:05 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Agree with all of this

But, given KC’s performance thusfar today, there is no way Fisher rolls the dice with Vince.

by SuperHorn on Dec 21, 2008 2:30 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Ahem

31-14

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.

by Caradoc on Dec 21, 2008 3:02 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I don’t understand why a coach who just went through the regular season with the best record in the league would make a quarterback change now. I understand this is a Longhorns blog and there is bias, but why in the world would you upset the apple cart?

by gahnki on Dec 21, 2008 3:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Going back to the original post..

.. a NFL Championship. Accept this answer with my burnt orange bias.

Excitedly nervous in 08.

by Ultra Horn on Dec 21, 2008 4:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Question for PB (and the other BON Steeler fans):

When Michael Griffin intercepted Big Ben for the second time, the last for an 80 yd TD, did you cheer or curse?

Oh, the conflict!

by horndude on Dec 21, 2008 3:05 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

young

we can all talk crap about young but his nfl failures are not just his own fault his damn team haves done nothing to make this team Vince Young team. Look at every star qb in the nfl there teams represent them its like his teams want him to be there and pass and not make dumb decision well. I am sorry no one is kicking Ben in the butt this year look at his stats there not the greatest i love vince young he was one of the best qb in ncaa history and was responsible for the best ncaa performance in collage football history

by KingMack on Dec 21, 2008 3:10 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Punctuation is cool.

by gahnki on Dec 21, 2008 3:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

This is my favorite post EVER!

VInce, when did you join Burnt Orange Nation?

DannoE

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
Go Titans!

by DannoE on Dec 23, 2008 3:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Young will come around, and Kerry Collins has played average its true,

but only because he’s needed to play average. when needed to play well or air it out, he does. The reason Aaron Rodgers is so good coming into the league is the simple fact that he sat and learned. Vince did pretty darn well for a qb with no learning time. I understand qb of the future and all that, but he needs to learn behind a true qb. Kerry is that qb. Go Titans! and HELL YEAH MICHAEL GRIFFIN.

by jacobb23 on Dec 21, 2008 3:18 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Re:
only because he’s needed to play average. when needed to play well or air it out, he does.

Did you watch the Texans game?

by SuperHorn on Dec 21, 2008 3:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

So much for....

…….the lame excuse of the NFL’s “sorriest group of WRs”. Kerry Collins is having no trouble moving the offense.

--- All roads to the Big-XII Championship lead through OU/RRS. It's not just another game! We're all about championships here. ---

by HornChamps on Dec 21, 2008 3:36 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

This game is an anomoly

They’ve played poorly all season. 300 yards rushing doesn’t hurt the passing game either…

by SuperHorn on Dec 21, 2008 3:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Woops...

Type. 300 yards of total offense. 100+ yards rushing.

by SuperHorn on Dec 21, 2008 5:34 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Um...

The receivers are still not good. Any Titans fan will tell you that. Besides, they won because of a strong rushing performance and obliterating Big Ben to the tune of four turnovers. That’s no shot at Collins, who played well, but that should be obvious.

by TheElusiveShadow on Dec 21, 2008 3:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

PB

You honestly think the Titans would be 13-2 with VY at the helm?

Titans Blogger at Music City Miracles even though gramsey hates it.

by Jimmy on Dec 21, 2008 4:43 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

My bad

Do you think this team would be 13-2 with VY at the helm?

Titans Blogger at Music City Miracles even though gramsey hates it.

by Jimmy on Dec 21, 2008 11:33 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

on the way back from winter park today

i was telling my buddy about the sense of entitlement that Texas athletes possess to the detriment of their future prospects…and i see the fans also have a nice dose of this entitlement

austin is a vacuum and when TU athletes/fans leave that vacuum, reality is harsh

griffin learned, will vince? or peter?

by guilded on Dec 21, 2008 4:50 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Mkay...

Did you read the post? I’m entitled to that, right?

D’oh!

--PB--

by Peter Bean on Dec 21, 2008 4:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i was being an ass...post game euphoria

you have a good blog here PB…i read it often…sorry my first comment was smart-assed

Go Titans!

by guilded on Dec 21, 2008 5:33 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Turnovers

as a Texans fan, I can tell you how bad turnovers can kill a team. Collins is starting because he’s better at taking care of the football. You can call it conservative, but when you have a great defense, you go with the game managing, less turnover-prone QB. Starting VY now after taking all this time off is simply inexplicable and unreasonable.

As for them losing to the Texans, Vanden Bosch/Haynesworth out or not 100% is a much bigger reason to losing than Collins. They let Steve Slaton get 100 yards.

by goingforthecorner on Dec 21, 2008 6:33 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I agree

I’m obviously a big VY fan (as everyone here), but the Titans strength, as PB says, is not their passing game. They have a strong running game and a good defense. That’s how they win. Thus, turnovers that give the other team short fields and free points can kill the team.

If they needed a playmaker at QB to win games, then obviously Vince is the better choice because Collins is limited. But since Collins, at least from what we see this season, has taken care of the ball better (granted, his last few weeks have been awful), he should be in there. It’s conservative, yes, but it’s practical.

However, I DO agree with those that say that Fisher and Co. should think about working with Vince in some packages in case they do need an offensive spark in the playoffs. There may be times in the playoffs that they’re down and they desperately need something to happen (the Texans game comes to mind), and that may be a good time to stick in VY. However, if the situation never arises, then of course, pulling Collins doesn’t make a lot of sense.

by TheElusiveShadow on Dec 21, 2008 6:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Bo

When you talk about their bad receivers, do you include Bo Scaife?

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.

by Caradoc on Dec 21, 2008 8:55 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

No, not the possession receivers. Scaife is fine.

I think the Titans are well fixed in that regard. It’s much more about not having the big, deep threat that can stretch the field consistently, the TO model.

by whills on Dec 22, 2008 1:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

A little off the subject, but kind of not...

When will the NFL learn that QB’s get hurt running backwards and by standing in the pocket, not by running forwards. College coaches figured it out years ago and now you’re seeing the beauty of having offenses that play 11 on 11 instead of down a man. I can’t remember the last time a quarterback got hurt running the ball past the line of scrimmage. Well let me correct myself. I can’t remember the last time a quarterback got hurt running the ball past the line of scrimmage and got hurt by contact. Vince pulled a quad running out of bounds last year. To avoid contact. No doubt at the instructions of his coaches.

Look I get that these QB’s make tons of money and that teams supposedly don’t want to risk their investments by having their quarterback take off down the field. Instead they’d rather have their QB’s stand in the pocket, with set feet, and look downfield. Yeah that worked out real well for Tom Brady this year. As for the money thing – LT makes a ton of money too and he carries the ball what 400 times a year? Plus he catches the ball out of the backfield and picks up the occassional blitz. No one pays extra special care that he doesn’t get hurt. And Tomlinson is all of 6-2, 215, maybe 220. Vince is 6-5 235. Actually he looks more like 250ish lately. There are quite few linebackers playing in the League now who don’t hit those numbers. But we’re worried this guy’s going to get hurt by contact?

I know the argument will come that the NFL’s speed is too great for a running quarterback to overcome. I say b.s.. Anyone think Brad Smith was vastly superior in speed to Vince? Smith is playing WR, the speediest position in football, in the NFL. Steve Young, a white Mormon boy got by okay with his feet. And yes I know Steve had some trouble with concussions, but those knocks to the head were far more likely to come from guys he couldn’t see while standing in the pocket, than from the guys he could see while running for first downs.

One last point to this rant. Why are NFL teams so damned freaked out about losing their starting QB anyway? Would the Titans really be that much worse off if Vince had gotten hurt on a 15 yard zone read? I think they’d be in the exact same place. Is Cassell doing such an awful job? And he replaced the best QB in the game. So why not run the spread offense with a running QB and just have your backup be ready to run the power I. If the coaches and GM’s are so worried about their backup QB’s, shouldn’t they have done a better job? The problem with losing Romo wasn’t losing Romo, it was having Johnson as a backup to begin with.

by flamingmonkeyass on Dec 22, 2008 3:06 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Expensive

You appear to lack the knowledge that quarterbacks aren’t cheap, especially if they’re good quarterbacks. The Patriots are faced with dropping one of their quarterbacks because next year Cassel’s contract is up and he’ll be WAY more expensive to have so either he or Brady will be undoubtedly dropped. In addition to that fact is the idea that many good quarterbacks expect that they’ll be on the field, not sitting on the sidelines getting rusty.

I see that QB’s should be doing more running. They can slide and also can go out of bounds so there really is no arguing that they’d be so much more likely to get hurt.

TEXAS FIGHT

by Darklust on Dec 22, 2008 10:24 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Michael Vick broke his leg on a scramble in preseason two or three years ago.

He was out almost the whole season.

DannoE

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
Go Titans!

by DannoE on Dec 23, 2008 3:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No like I said..

I get that quarterbacks aren’t cheap. No one in the NFL is cheap. Big name running backs have big contracts too but teams don’t fret too much over contact for their half backs.

The Patriot example you bring is up is exactly why teams shouldn’t be afraid of using their QB as a runner. Tom Brady blew out his knee and might not be back until 2010. He wasn’t hurt on a QB draw or a zone read, but rather after throwing a pass after a standard 5 step drop. The Pats wouldn’t be any worse off if they’d lost Brady on a designed QB run (though given Brady’s mobility you might have to question their strategy). But having lost their starting QB, they had to turn to a guy who hadn’t started a game since high school. He might not be Tom Brady but he’s done alright for himself this year. Maybe that’s him and maybe that’s the system. My guess is we’ll find out soon enough because as you say his contract is up and I’d venture to say that some team out there will take a chance on him, pay him some big bucks and make him their starter. But who’s to say that New England won’t go out and find another unheralded, relatively inexpensive back up to learn their system and trust that their GM and coaching staff can find a compotent replacement?

Again I’m not suggesting that every NFL team go out and find a guy to run the spread option. Although I think that offense would be successful in the NFL if you actually let your QB run the full package. What I am suggesting is that if you have a guy at QB who’s a capable (or in some cases more than capable) runner, why not use those talents? Instead the NFL seems content to have their mobile QBs limit their running to simply avoiding sacks. In fact they seem determined to force those quarterbacks who excel with their feet to abandon their trade and make them into something they aren’t – pocket passers. See Vick, Michael and Youg, Vince.

by flamingmonkeyass on Dec 22, 2008 10:20 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I've always thought

that NFL teams are missing a bet here… they fear losing their QBs, particularly the running QBs so they don’t utilize that aspect of their talents. Part of their fear, I believe, is the notion of building an offense around a running QB, then losing him, and having to revamp their entire offense.

Meanwhile they keep themselves busy turning successful college quarterbacks into wide receivers or kick returners… I think if a smart NFL team came along, and committed to the spread, complete with running QB, they could stock plenty of reserve QBs who are currently vastly undervalued. They’d probably save a ton of money on just their backups at the position… at least until they proved the concept successful and the rest of the league jumped aboard.

by Pflash on Dec 23, 2008 3:13 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

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