How The Coaches Voted
by 40AS on Dec 7, 2008 5:25 PM CST
in Texas Longhorns Football
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PrintCheck it out here. Some interesting votes were:
Art Briles -- OU 1, Texas 5
Gene Chizik -- Texas 1, OU 2
Mack Brown -- Florida 1, Texas 2, OU 3
Mark Dantonio -- OU 1, Texas 5
Mike Leach -- OU 1, Texas 5
Howard Schnellenberger -- OU 2, Texas 4
Urban Meyer -- Texas 4, Florida 1
Also interesting were Rick Neuheisel and Mike Price (along with Todd Dodge and Gene Chizik) were the only coaches to put Texas #1, and the fact that Tommy Bowden still has a vote in the Coaches Poll despite no longer being a coach.
[UPDATE by 40AS]: Looking in some mini-BZ detail, 13 coaches in the top 25 had votes in the poll. Of those 13, 2 put their team exactly where the poll had them (Mike Bellotti and Mark Dantonio). 1 had his team below the poll spot (Frank Beamer, 5 spots lower). 5 had their teams 1 spot above their ranking (Mack, Urban Meyer, Gary Patterson, Mark Richt and Mike Reily). 3 were within 2 spots of their ranking (Jim Tressel, Kyle Whittingham and Chris Peterson). Mike Leach had Tech an astounding 6 spots above his final ranking and Gary Pinkel had Missouri a less shocking 5. For what it's worth, 6 of the 13 coaches with the most to gain/lose had OU 2 or more spots ahead of Texas.
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dammit, Mack!
has he learned nothing watching his nemesis pander lately? Glad he put the sooners behind us (as any sane person should) but moving Florida upfront? Guess Citadel was a sexier game than I thought…
"When you get to the end zone, act like you've been there before."
Oklahoma State 17th... Missouri 11th?
Texas behind USC? Ohio State he has low… and still has us behind them?
They should really be transparent every week.
I have no idea why this list constitutes 33% of the national champion on any given year. If it works at all it does so by accident.
Keep in mind
that his team just played an epic game against a truly evenly-matched opponent in Alabama. Urban thinking Bama is 3 ahead of Texas isn’t egregious enough to start the “bullshit” chants. It’s not like he had Texas Tech 2 and Texas.. what ,like 8th? Jesus Mike Leach.
and I love that Leach put Tech at #2
"When you get to the end zone, act like you've been there before."
This all goes back to the post about class.
Screw all of um and let’s be glad we have Mack. But this really get’s the panties in a bunch. Good grief.
I don’t see how Dantonio’s final top 5 is even remotely defensible – Alabama over Texas is totally absurd based on … well, pretty much anything you can come up with. Strange that he has PSU and OSU so close together (6th and 8th). But at least his isn’t absurdly homerish – he has MSU #18, right where the overall poll does.
Hal Mumme has TT over us.
"Football's so important in Texas. On the West Coast, it's a social. On the East Coast, it's a culture. Here, it's a religion."
-- Major Applewhite
All this says
is Politics rule. How can so many FBC division coaches see it differently at the top?
To all of the coaching clowns – payback is a mofo. Your time cometh (read Leach).
This is the problem with the whole system
You have people who are very obviously directly affected by the results eligible to vote. Mack’s vote is defensible. Leach’s is not. Urban … well, it’s barely defensible, but it’s the most homerific defensible ballot possible.
Sounds great in theory
Except that some coaches have integrity and some don’t – which means that nice guys finish last.
Leach and Briles are pricks
Seriously? #5? GFYS douches.
Perhaps the most recognizable mascot in sports, and certainly the toughest looking, Bevo is a fixture
What is going to be interesting is to see if Mack
could have voted us into the title game had he been an asshole like Meyer or Leach.
what's really going to be interesting...
is whether Mack pulls Colt early in 4th next year against Baylor.
I hope not.
We can’t be too sure what Briles would consider an impressive-enough win. Same with a Harrell-less Leach.
Mack's classy
But still, why wouldn’t you atleast put a Big 12 team 1, why give UF credit
by CrackerAssCracker on Dec 7, 2008 5:49 PM CST reply actions
Because Mack did it legit.
He’s got to stand by ranking us ahead of OU. And he’s not going to go the homer route and rank us number one.
This is actually very interesting
I wish we could see this every week. Pinkel hates mid-majors. You can see conference loyalty all over the board. Transparency helps the system, I don’t know why these guys get to hide behind a wall of anonymity until the last vote.
If you're so sure of what it ain't, how about telling us what it am!
conference loyalty
except in the Big XII, thanks Leach and Briles.
Perhaps the most recognizable mascot in sports, and certainly the toughest looking, Bevo is a fixture
We lost 18 points
due to coaches who put us 4th or 5th. That translates to 33.6 votes in the Harris poll. Should that be the difference, fuck sportsmanship.
Yes, but Florida wasn't lower than 3 on any ballot.
Texas at 1 is defensible. Florida at 3 is defensible. Texas at 4 or 5 is not.
UT is NOT #5
Screw job deluxe
I can see Leach’s reasoning for him to put Tech over UT, but not to put UT at #5, or anyone else for that matter……. I don’t know how anyone could have had them ANY less then 4th, at worst………
That's certainly not how I would rank Texas.
But if he’s off by one ranking in virtue of having beaten Texas but not Florida or Alabama, that’s hardly outrageous or “screw job deluxe.”
I'd love to see a breakdown of the variation
between a coach’s ranking of his team, and the average of everyone else’s ranking. My bet is, Leach would have the highest variation.
I think that's probably true.
Texas Tech generated a lot of disagreement from the coaches from the looks of it and Leach certainly ranked his team higher than anyone else.
I have no problem with it, obviously.
Alot of disagreement?
All but 3 coaches had them 6-9. Wasn’t expecting you to have a problem with it, you’re a Tech homer. Would love to hear Leach’s justification though.
Re:
For a top 10 team that’s a lot of disagreement. Look at Ohio State, Penn State, USC, Utah… all have one or two outlier but pretty clustered.
I think Leach’s explanation would be: He’s below a team he lost to, he’s above a team he beat, and he put Texas below Florida and Alabama because he didn’t beat either of those teams but he did beat Texas.
I would’ve put UT in front of Alabama, though.
Given what's happened ALL YEAR LONG
Alabama should be below UT
You lose, especially late, you drop.
Alabama should even be below USC.
Surely you recognize the difference between 6-9 and
ranking your own team 2nd. Leach and Meyer have the two biggest homer ballots on there.
I'm not going to defend either of their ballots......
No way…
Although, I’m actually surprised Meyer didn’t vote Alabama #2…….. Given the SEC love affair with each other…..
Yes, I recognize the difference between 6-9 and ranking your team 2nd. This is why I said:
I think that’s probably true.
In reference to your statement:
My bet is, Leach would have the highest variation.
I think that’s probably true even if by “variation” you mean “biggest homer ballot” in terms of difference between average rank and his own team’s rank. Tech finished 8th, he ranked us 2nd. The next highest I see, is Gary Pinkel ranking Missouri 4 spots higher than teh poll at large. This is why I said:
Leach certainly ranked his team higher than anyone else.
I disagree that Urban Meyer’s ballot is a homer ballot. He ranked them 1st, as did nearly half the other voters. That’s one point above 2nd.
I didn't agree with Leach....
I just was saying I could understand why HE would put Tech above UT, and I doubt anyone else did (I haven’t looked at the breakdown). And even though he did that, for ANY coach or voter to put UT at #5 is ludicrous.
To be fair
It never did. Coaches don’t watch film of anyone but their next opponent, so how can they put together a ballot?
Reading all the blogpoll summaries from various voters over the past couple years demonstrates just how tough it is for people who watch lots of games and have time to study teams other than their own. There’s no way that coaches spend that much time looking at other teams to put together their rankings.
Excellent point
Other than some occasional weekday games or MAYBE Saturday night games, they just aren’t watching games of teams they don’t play. They don’t have the time and they don’t care. I’d bet that up until late in the year when it starts to matter a GA or someone low on the totem poll is actually putting the teams in there.
This doesn’t even include the natural biases involved.
Harris poll
What’s the deal with the Harris poll today?
Drama
Waiting, to create drama for the BCS, I guess…….
That is it
. . and it is over. And it’s not even close. Harris clearly went for Florida #1, OU #2, and Texas #3.
More importantly, which coaches acknowledge a head to head win
and vote Texas ahead of ou.
Beamer, Belotti, Brown, Chizik, Cristobal, Dodge, Edsol, Gill, Lynch, Martin, Neuheisel, Price, Toledo, Tomey.
can't even face the announcement...
comin’ from switzer…yuck.
"When you get to the end zone, act like you've been there before."
Look at the votes from the coaches.......
That played both teams….
Baylor- OU #1, UT #5
Missouri- OU #1, UT #2
Texas Tech – OU #1, UT #5
OU #1 across the board. I’ll grant you that UT #5 is questionable, but a consensus #1 from all 3.
So, in THEIR minds, OU was the better team.
That's fine
and had we not played ou, I could live with that. But we played ou. 10 points, neutral, win, october, yada yada yada…ou sucks. You guys continue to ignore the elephant in the room and focus on everything else.
I don't ignore Tech at all.....
In fact, aren’t they 2nd in the conference?? They beat UT head to head, 33-39, so shouldn’t they be going to the Fiesta???
is there anybody anywhere
other than lubbock that thinks tech should have played for the big 12 title? No. Eliminated.
On the last play from scrimmage, on their field, on the best play in their program's history.
As opposed to a neutral field, by 10, dominated in the 4th.
This is getting really tired.
The system is fucked, and Texas AND Tech got screwed, while OU benefitted in every way possible.
I agree, it is tired
and it’s still excuses for losing 39-33.
Yes, Texas AND Texas Tech both got screwed and yes Oklahoma got the benefit of the doubt.
Tech didn't need the TD
They were in FG range, the TD was just gravy.
Actually, a FG from their walkon would have made an even better story….
DoubleB
do you acknowledge that you have to eliminate one team in a 3 way tie in order to make a decision?
Not at all
That’s why you give it to the coaches to vote, highest vote total wins………
No,
You can evaluate and choose one of the three.
But if I have to eliminate one (according to your system), can’t I eliminate Oklahoma (poor defense, poor special teams, never seemed to put some teams away (Kansas, OSU))?
No I am going to look
at the 3 games played, excuse a 10 point loss, excuse a 6 point loss and throw out the team with the 40 point loss
OK
Oklahoma’s net margin of victory was 34, Texas was was 4, and Tech’s was -38. Clearly OU is better right?
The point I'm trying to make
is that in this system we have, 2 of the 3 teams were going to get screwed. It royally sucks that Tech and Texas were two of them and that Oklahoma (for what seems like the 28th time) was the beneficiary.
All 3 teams have good arguments and, in my opinion, Texas is the best team. But the circular logic that has been used for the last month could go on forever and neither team nor fanbase has the higher ground.
The point I made above amout eliminating one team
is the same system use by every major conference but the big 12. Why does that not make sense to you?
and why does
one have to eliminate one team in order to find the “champion” or “best team” in a 3-way tie?
Is it a way to settle a 3-way tie, yes. It’s not the only way.
Then do this...
Make the case for Tech to play for a national title. Have fun!
I can certainly make the Fiesta Bowl case.
Oklahoma broke the 3-way tie by beating Missouri, now we aren’t comparing 3 teams with identical records, so you go back to head-to-head. 12-1 is not 11-1. So you have Texas vs. Texas Tech and the latter beat the former. So…?
But who cares what I think, the decision was made. Congrats to both Oklahoma and Texas on their well earned and deserved BCS bids, and we’ll just try and enjoy ourselves in the Cotton Bowl. Someone had to get fucked (which is to say: Someone had to have something unpleasant happen to them, not necessarily WRONGED) and it was us. We could’ve solved that by beating OU and we didn’t. That’s why you guys get to go to the Fiesta.
That's your response?
You have no substantive answer, so ridicule the response. Impressive
I wasn't trying to ridicule you
I respect you. I was building on your argument that their are multiple ways to do things. Mine being that some are much more productive and logical than others.
I simply think
that eliminating one based on a large loss to get down to the final two was both logical and productive. Much more then combining point totals of games held on different days and different weeks, in different weather, in different cities and with different circumstances.
and that's more logical because
. . it helps Texas?
Because graduation rates
have so much to do with which team is best. That’s pirate logic.
You avoided my question.
Make the case that Tech is the best team in the country.
We aren't the best team in the country.
We’re the 3rd best team in a three way tie. Oklahoma is the best team (per others) and UT is the 2nd best team. You seem to think admitting that Tech is the 3rd best team in a 3-way tie necessarily means Texas is the best, lot of people (including the conference your team plays in) don’t see it that way.
What I'm saying
Is that if you can’t make a case for Tech as the best team, then they are eliminated right there. Which makes it a two team race. And what is the best way to decided between two teams? Head to head, on a neutral field sounds good.
Well I think
you should decide 3-way ties by graduation rates. I say:
1. Head to Head
…
5. Graduation Rates
Eliminate the worst graduating school, then go back to 1.
I think we all want a system that eliminates the team that beat us first. You guys are trying to say, essentially, that you’re the best team in the country because we got so absolutely smoked by Oklahoma. As SpartanDan has pointed out, if you’re right it would be the case that OU would’ve been better off beating us by 1 point on a fluke field goal, since that would keep Tech in the discussion at least.
How can it be the case that Texas Tech is eliminated from the discussion because Oklahoma beat us by so many points, therefore Oklahoma is not as good as Texas?
Because Tech played themselves out
of the conversation. Tech does not belong in that conversation, and you know it. How much ire have you seen that Tech isn’t in the title game? NONE.
So...
Now the standard is:
Whichever team presents the least “ire” should be eliminated and then move to head-to-head.
Whatever you want to argue about who to eliminate first, your position is that OU would be better off if they beat Tech by 1 point than if they smoked us by 100. That would speak, if anything, towards the strength of the current Big XII system over that of other conferences. I’m not married to our system, but at least it tries to measure a champion utilizing a bevy of factors that actually relate to the strength of the three teams measured against one another, rather than using extrinsic factors that turn out to be totally illogical (like that OU is better off only winning by a point) to eliminate what is probably the team with a better resume.
I have to make the case they should play
in the national title game (or go to the Big XII conference title game).
11-1, 7-1 in conference. Gave Kansas their worst loss among the tied teams (on the road), Gave OSU their worst loss among the tied teams. The other two only have one each. Played a better non-conference schedule than Texas (you’ll dispute that, but I think Nevada is better than any team on UT’s schedule).
So now answer my question: if Tech lost to OU by 10 or 14 points, would they be in the picture? I’m genuinely curious.
And yes,
I think if Tech had been competitive with OU, then they would be in the conversation.
So...
OU would be eliminated if they’d just beaten Texas Tech by a little less. Is that what you’re saying?
No,
I’m saying it would actually be a 3 way tie if Tech had stayed competitive.
OU just showed what Baylor and Nebraska
almost did. Tech got up for one big game. That is the entirety of their case.
True. We fucked up.
We needed to make a play and we didn’t. So what happened in Norman?
I do not know what your problem is.
I will happily discuss with you the various merits of the Big XII tie breaker, or not. I’ll talk about how Tech ranks against an 11-1 and 11-1 OU (which is to say, below them both). We can discuss the shortcomings of the BCS system. We can discuss all sorts of things. But if rather than discuss with you “what happened in Norma” here’s the fucking box score. The score was 65-21. Texas Tech lost. You know that, you’re asking it flippantly to get a rise out of me. I’ve now provided you with the score and the ESPN recap, so you really don’t need to ask me about it. I won’t ask you (and I haven’t?) about what happened in Lubbock.
If you want to talk about tie breakers we can do that. If you want to find out the final score of games played this season, go to ESPN.
I asked the question flippantly
to illustrate that our loss is defensible, and Tech’s is not. Therefore, it is my opinion that Tech should be eliminated from the Big 12 South discussion.
I’m not sure why you’re getting all testy and defensive, though. You’re on a Texas board, as a Tech fan, at one of the toughest times ever to be a Texas fan, stating reasons why you think OU deserves to be ahead of us. Do you think we shoud thank you for that?
Re:
1. Who is defending Tech’s loss here? We’re going to the Cotton Bowl. I’ve already said both Texas and Oklahoma deserve to go to BCS games in front of us.
2. We disagree about tie breaking procedures. I’m trying to illustrate that your position in Re: Oklahoma, though perfectly understandable, is illogical. It just cannot be the case that OU would be better off beating Tech by 1 than by 44. If that is the case, something is broken.
3. I am not testy and defensive. I am not surprised that you and others feel Texas should be ahead of OU. I don’t really care whether OU is in front of Texas. I am not asking you or anyone else to love me. I’m just stating: If you want to know the score of games Tech played this year, go to ESPN. Don’t ask me about it if you’re doing so to get a rise out of me. Should I thank you for that?
By the way… This has already gone on long enough, maybe I am getting snippy, we both are. Let’s agree to disagree and be done with it, we’re not going to convince each other of anything, I withdraw everything, etc.
Agreed.
Just a frustrating day. My apologies. Good luck in the Cotton, you guys deserve better. Can’t wait to play y’all in Austin!
I hope you smoke Ohio State.
I wish they had not gotten to a BCS game in front of us. I want UT to make that case as well, with an exclamation point.
Skin Patrol's
- point is what I’m trying to make, but he said it more eloquently. I have no issue with UT fans believing they have the best team. I’ve stated before that I think Texas is better as well (emphasis on the "think"). But the logic being used is incredibly flawed.
Please just let it lie.
I disagree with you. You disagree with me. Best of luck to you and your team.
Just so we're clear
you are punishing Oklahoma for beating Texas Tech so badly?
If Oklahoma HAD ALLOWED Tech to stay in the game and only won by 10 or so, then the entire head-to-head argument would be moot?
In that scenario,
I would have no clue as to how to break the 3-way tie. I really wouldn’t.
they may not
realize it Skin Patrol, but we’ve made our point.
You smug little man.
You haven’t made any valid points, and your argument for Tech to play for a title is laughable. Tech’s schedule was a joke, every good team at home, except the team that beat them by 40.
At any rate, the least y’all could do is beat Ole Miss in the Cotton. Try not to embarrass the Big 12 like OU will.
nothing like name calling
to make a compelling argument. Good work.
How's this...
You haven’t made any valid points, and your argument for Tech to play for a title is laughable. Tech’s schedule was a joke, every good team at home, except the team that beat them by 40.
At any rate, the least y’all could do is beat Ole Miss in the Cotton. Try not to embarrass the Big 12 like OU will.
Look, we're obviously not going to agree.
We think we’re the best, and Tech fans think OU is. Good luck in the bowl game, Tech. Go to hell, OU.
This is epic
I haven’t seen a reply chain divert this far to the right of my screen. Turns out there’s a limit!
by goingforthecorner on Dec 7, 2008 9:36 PM CST up reply actions
Nope. The NFL doesn’t do it that way, nor does any conference except the SEC or ACC. (Big East goes straight to the top BCS rating after head-to-head, the Pac-10 and Big Ten have a clause giving it to a team that finishes in the top 2 regardless of any other factors – including head-to-head! – but otherwise ignores the rankings entirely.)
Come to think of it, even those conferences don’t do it that way until you get to the BCS tiebreaker. If there were a three-way tie at 5-3, head-to-head split, and the division records were 4-1, 3-2, and 2-3, the 4-1 gets it right away, regardless of which team they lost to in the head-to-head. You don’t eliminate the 2-3 team and then go back to head-to-head.
Note that I’m not arguing that OU is clearly the “correct” choice. There isn’t one. But throwing out Tech purely on the basis that OU left a smoking crater on their sideline is just plain stupid. Would anyone be making that argument if OU won 35-21 instead of 65-21? Then why punish OU for winning huge instead of winning a relatively close game? (And yes, that’s what happens if you throw out the biggest loser – the team that handed them that huge loss gets punished for it.)
Making a statement that......
A vote by the coaches of the teams played would be a more valid tie breaker
A real tie breaker
Would be between the teams all 3 played, which would be OSU, Baylor, and A&M…. I don’t think all 3 played a common north team, but if they did, throw them in as well…
3,2,1 points…
No Stoops assistants there.
If ALL conference coaches were used, well there’s a UT assistant in ISU, why is that any worse or better????
TexasSooner, tell the truth...
Do you even watch football?
I'm pretty certain
You didn’t read my post…..
I said their were no Stoops’ assistants among the South teams that the 3 tied teams played. OSU, Baylor, A&M, there are no former OU coaches on there….
Yes, I did
I did not at the time remember if THIS year there was a common north opponent.
What I’m talking about is not just this year, I’m talking about a more fair SYSTEM of breaking a tie-breaker in the unrealistic possibility that such a situation ever happens again….
To reiterate.....
The point is to use ALL the coaches from the teams that all the tied teams played. Obviously there would be all the remaining division teams, and then you would include any common teams from the other division. This applies for either side….
OR
Use ALL of the remaining conference coaches.
I think the other way is more fair, because this uses the teams that actually played all 3….
Tech?
Tech played Kansas?? I didn’t remember that… Then they should be thrown into the mix of who votes….
Right..........
So, in the revised list of 4 teams, yeah, Mangino should be on the list…
OMG, what if it HAPPENED to be ISU???? A UT assistant!! Could be fair?!??
The point is, they have the most direct ability to compare teams to break a tie…..
I still hope
UT somehow goes to the Sugar, and not Fiesta………
I still hope you slip and fall into puddle of ebola...
"There are three kinds of people in this world: those who are good at math, and those who aren't..."
--GA Horn--
Cincy's strength
Is their run defense….
That ought to be a decent game…..
for better or worst, it should always be the computers
take all the emotion and politicking out of it and let the computers have total say. i’m not one of these people afraid of “them ’puters”. even if ou were to come out ahead of us, i still say give it all to the machines. also, the harris poll is ridiculous. as soon as i read what the harris poll actually was, it astounded me they still rely on it. ridiculous. give it to the computer, allow it to include strength of schedule (if it isn’t), and take it from there.
My ex-brother-in-law........
Is the biggest Buckeye fan that I know…….
And while I like him, I LOATHE the Buckeyes…. As well as the Big 11
Go UT, whip the shit out of the Big 11…..
Only 10 points down in the AP poll
Give Ohio State a royal beatdown and UT at least has a shot.
Merry Christmas UT
Good luck in your bowl, beat the Buckeyes.
I’m off to spread Christmas cheer
Boomer Sooner
Hope that douche Leach
has fun in the Cotton Bowl while 30 year old assistant coaches get better job offers than him. He can suck it.
You can take humility too far, Mack
Humility can reach a point that it is no longer a virtue. What was that character in the Charles Dickens novel, “humble” Uriah Heep, or something? It would be unethical for Brown to rank OU around #15, but he can and should have had us #1 the last 2 weeks. If he is uncomfortable ranking his team as high as it deserves, then he should give up his vote. What message does this send to the team? I’m sure Obama didn’t vote for McCane.
"Only angry people win football games." --DKR
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