Morning Coffee Will Never Concede A Vince Young Loss. Ever.
Ownage, Part 2. Though it's doubtful to be much consolation to the 'Horns, at least yesterday's setback on the diamond to Missouri was a respectable one. Six weeks after Missouri handed Texas a 44-14 drubbing over two games, the Tigers this time all but ended the Longhorns' Big 12 tournament hopes with a 3-2 win in 10 innings yesterday. Texas had its chances, but couldn't get a clutch hit or, in the 10th inning, get down a sacrifice bunt that probably would have led to a run on an ensuing single. Texas now faces A&M today at 4 p.m., but to advance, the 'Horns must win two in a row and have Missouri drop two in a row. Not likely.
Look up! Seriously, look up - to the header at the top of this page, where I've been counting down to football season. Today we hit the 99 days marker! No more triple digits!
Now this is a playoff I'd sell my soul to see. As ESPN.com works through a series of articles at the 10-year mark of the BCS, today we get the ultimate bar stool argument: Ranking the 10 BCS champions. Mark Schlabach's list:
- Miami 2001
- USC 2004
- Florida State 1999
- Texas 2005
- Oklahoma 2000
- Tennessee 1998
- LSU 2003
- Florida 2006
- Ohio State 2002
- LSU 2007
Though there's obviously room to disagree, Schlabach does a good job of explaining why he made the picks as he did. Why Miami '01 in the top spot?
Perhaps no team in college football history had as much talent as the 2001 Hurricanes. Ten players who started for Miami during the 2001 season were first-round selections in the next three NFL drafts. In fact, Miami had 16 NFL first-rounders from 2002 to 2005.
Fair enough, but at least to those of us in Austin, we need an answer to: "Who stops Vince Young?" There's no question that Miami's 2001 roster was top-to-bottom superior to Texas' in 2005, but, seriously: can they stop VY?
I say no. Though the Hurricanes' pass defense was phenomenal, they finished 40th in the country in rushing yards per game (133 YPG), at just over 3.1 yards per carry. (For context: USC '05 finished the season - VY's damage included - at 130 yards per game on 3.8 per carry.) The way this plays out in my head, USC '05 had the better offense than Miami '01, while the 'Canes had the better defense overall. Just not enough to deal with the Vince Young ridiculousness on the ground.
I actually think I'd give the USC '04 team the best shot to contain VY. In my head, though, Texas '05 tops the list. Shocking, I know.
As long as we're here... Sticking with ESPN.com, Ivan Maisel has a nice column trying to make the case for the BCS. Though I obviously disagree with the conclusion, he does bring up a point that has been around so long that we really don't make it enough these days: so long as we're in a voting system, can we please fix the damn thing? Give us a committee like the NCAA Basketball Tournament uses. Anything other than the joke of coaches-with-stakes + Harris Poll (who?).
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BCS Rankings
The 2005 Trojans were better than the 2004 team. They returned all of their key players, and if they had beaten Texas, I would bet money that Schlabach would have ranked them first, or at the least, second, either way, above their 2004 team. This is another example of ESPN (or rather a particular contributor) not giving Texas the respect we deserve, or put another way, bias. Obviously, as a homer, I think the 2005 Longhorns were the best, but from a more objective perspective, they should probably be second, but certainly no lower than second. (But I do agee with PB that we would have beaten that team if we could have played them. VY would make it happen).
by Texas Our Texas on May 22, 2008 2:42 AM CDT 0 recs
Heh
I was going to say the 2005 Trojans, as the best team in history, were obviously number 0 on the list. Its just a shame theres no way that you could directly compare the best team in college football history (2 heisman trophy winners on the same field, are you kidding me) to any of those listed above.
by BoddickerIsClutch on
May 22, 2008 7:53 AM CDT
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Schlabach
Schlabach went to UGA and used to write for the AJC. I doubt he has some sort of bias against Texas in favor of Miami, USC, or FSU based on that.
I do agree that ‘05 Texas should be no lower than #2, and I could be convinced of #1 based on the “Who stops Vince Young?” argument that Peter made. The best team of my lifetime (since ‘85) though is definitely ‘95 Nebraska. I think Tommie Frazier just scored again…
by Year2 on
May 22, 2008 8:14 AM CDT
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2005 USC was not better than 2004
half of their defense got hurt in 2005. offense was a little better, but the defense was quite a bit worse.
by billyzane on
May 22, 2008 8:25 AM CDT
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I completely disagree
The quality of their 2005 offense was more than enough to offset the slight loss on defense. Their defense did quite well through the season (until they met VY), and their offense was devistating. 2005 Trojans would have beaten the 2004 Trojans, but the 2005 Longhorns could beat either team, which is really the point.
by Texas Our Texas on
May 23, 2008 11:13 AM CDT
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I'd put Texas 3rd
behind 2001 Miami and 2004 USC. I don’t think the point is to say “if these two teams played each other, which would win?” If we did that whenever we were comparing teams, we’d have to say, “well, 1995 nebraska had never seen Texas Tech’s spread before so they wouldn’t have known what to do against it” or “the 1969 Texas team’s starting right guard weighed like 200 pounds so 2007 Texas and their much superior and bigger athletes would definitely beat them.”
It’s which team was the most dominant and “good” within their respective year/era. Miami in 2001 was the greatest team I’ve ever seen except maybe 1995 nebraska.
by billyzane on May 22, 2008 8:36 AM CDT 0 recs
i would put
#2- 05 texas
#3- 01 miami
if these three played each other texas or usc would probably win and the only reason i would say texas might win is vy. usc just had too many big game breakers to ignore.
by Hook'em13 on
May 22, 2008 7:44 PM CDT
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If your test
is “which team was the most dominant and "good" within their respective year/era,” then it would be hard to not put 01 Miami 1st (although an argument could still be made for Texas), but Texas was definitely more “dominating” and “good” than 2004 USC
by Texas Our Texas on
May 23, 2008 11:18 AM CDT
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The USC
.....team of 2004 was far superior to the 2005 team! That ‘04 USC team allowed all of 169 points in the entire season. They held 8 of their opponents to less than 14 points! That would include a victory (24-13) over a VaTech team that finished the season #10 after a 3-point loss to an Auburn team that finished the season undefeated!
While the 2004 USC team dominated their best OOC opponent (VaTech), the 2005 variety struggled mightily with their best OOC opponent (NotreDame) winning the game, in the final moments, 34-31. The 2004 USC team dominated their bowl opponent (an OU team that shut us out in the regular season) by score of 55-19 that wasn’t that close. Meanwhile the 2005 USC team lost their bowl game (38-41) on the final play of the game.
The 2004 USC team had an average margin of victory greater than 25 points, while the 2005 USC team had a remarkably similar average margin of victory of 26 points.
--- All roads to the Big-XII Championship lead through OU/RRS. It's not just another game! We're all about championships here. ---
by HornChamps on May 22, 2008 8:42 AM CDT 0 recs
Maybe but...
You focus mainly on the defense. One could argue that the 2005 USC team had the highest scoring offense in NCAA history and THAT alone makes them superior. The 2005 team actually had more All-Americans, (two at RB) and an additional Heisman winner. They struggled to hold teams during the regular season, because of injuries, not because of talent.
Talent wise the 2004 and 2005 USC teams are a wash on defense. But the 2004 USC was just a more complete "team".
Cats and dogs sleeping together.
by EYESofBEVO on
May 22, 2008 8:54 AM CDT
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If I recall correctly...
the 2005 Texas team averaged more points per game than the 2005 USC team, but not by much.
by afaeguy on
May 22, 2008 12:39 PM CDT
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If I recall correctly
I think USC averaged a little more points than UT all year (probably due to Ohio State). However, after the Colorado drubbing, our average went up enough to top them, so going into the final game, we had a higher average by a smidge. Then of course we won, so we remained up top.
by BoddickerIsClutch on
May 22, 2008 1:28 PM CDT
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Ok I looked it up
We over took them on Nov 12, when we beat Kansas by scoring 66, and they beat Cal by only scoring 35.
They closed the gap a little the next week, as they put up 50 and we only put up 40. Then Texas sealed the deal with 70 (USC had 60) and the infamous 41 (USC had 38).
Heres another fun fact about the 2005 juggernauts…
Total Points scored by teams in 2005:
1 Texas 13 652
2 Southern California 13 638
3 Louisville 12 521
4 Texas Tech 12 473
5 UCLA 12 469
USC and Texas each played an additional game, but thats a hell of a dropoff. In comparison, here was 2007:
1 Hawaii 13 564
2 Kansas 13 556
3 Florida 13 552
4 Boise St. 13 551
5 Oklahoma 14 592
by BoddickerIsClutch on
May 22, 2008 1:37 PM CDT
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that offense was insane.
i don’t think it can be emphasized enough just how ridiculous the Texas ‘05 offense was. as that ESPN article points out, “The Longhorns had the most prolific offense of the BCS era, setting an NCAA Division I-A record with 652 points scored during the 2005 season. Texas scored at least 40 points in all but one of its 13 games and 50 or more points seven times.”
which is pretty impressive in its own right before you consider that Texas pretty much only played the first 2.5 quarters of a bunch of those games. that could have been 800 points without breaking a sweat if mack had felt like it.
by godelmetric on
May 22, 2008 2:47 PM CDT
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“Maybe but…...You focus mainly on the defense.”
There is an old axiom in football (maybe you’ve heard of it) – defense wins championships.
--- All roads to the Big-XII Championship lead through OU/RRS. It's not just another game! We're all about championships here. ---
by HornChamps on
May 23, 2008 1:02 AM CDT
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99 days or 100 days...?
MB-TF.com is reporting 100 days…and PB et al are reporting 99 days. Whaddayathink y’all get together and report the same number, eh…?
by Horns757 on May 22, 2008 8:48 AM CDT 0 recs
Canes #1?
The 2001 Canes played in the Big East during the conference’s lowest point during that MNC run. People forget what a complete joke that conference was. Then they had the benefit of playing an NU team who made it to the BCS for sentimental reasons, not because they were the 2nd best team.
The Canes were good – but virtually untested.
Cats and dogs sleeping together.
by EYESofBEVO on May 22, 2008 9:03 AM CDT 0 recs
The 2001
.....Miami team managed to play a few quality teams. The rankings below are the end-of-season rankings for some of Miami’s opponents.
49-27 over a #15 Florida State
18-7 over a #21 Boston College
59-0 over a #14 Syracuse
26-24 over a #18 VaTech
37-14 over a #8 Nebraska
That Miami team allowed a total of 117 points. The Canes held 9 of their opponents to 14 or fewer points. They shut-out 3 of their opponents, including a 59-0 pasting of a Syracuse team that finished the season ranked #14. “Virtually untested”? I don’t think so.
Defense wins championships.
--- All roads to the Big-XII Championship lead through OU/RRS. It's not just another game! We're all about championships here. ---
by HornChamps on
May 23, 2008 1:22 AM CDT
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I looked up 2001 Miami
They dominated most all their competition, but it was interesting with all this talk about defense to see that the top 10 defenses in 2001 looked like this:
1 Texas 236.17
2 Virginia Tech 237.91
3 Kansas St. 262.36
4 Oklahoma 262.83
5 UAB 265.91
6 Miami (Fla.) 270.91
7 Pittsburgh 284.64
8 Nebraska 287.17
9 Florida 290.18
10 Texas A&M 294.00
Thats right 3 of the top 5 were Big 12, and 5 of the top 10. Offense must have just sucked that year!
Heres scoring D, which is what Miami is most likely remembered for:
1 Miami (Fla.) 9.4
2 Virginia Tech 13.4
3 Texas 13.7
4 Oklahoma 13.8
5 Florida 14.1
6 Nebraska 15.8
7 Kansas St. 16.3
Big 12 takes 4 of the top 10 (or 7) here.
by BoddickerIsClutch on
May 23, 2008 12:01 PM CDT
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Chewbacca Defense of Miami
Basically, this is what I got from Maisel
2000 Oklahoma was even worse, with no first rounders immediately after that season, and only 4 players drafted at all in the next two years.
Reading his article, he uses a different criteria to explain every ranking, some qualitative, some quantitative. Granted it’s not an easy, or really even a possible task, but I’m not wild about justifying the #1 spot with an argument that boils down to “look at the silly monkey”.
by learned hand on May 22, 2008 9:56 AM CDT 0 recs
Ignore the part about Oklahoma
there was a thought there, but I decided Johnnie Cochran did a better job explaining it, and didn’t manage to delete it before hitting post.
by learned hand on
May 22, 2008 9:58 AM CDT
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Two semester sport
Maisel’s article reminded me of the absurd objection to playoffs of not wanting football to become a ‘two semester’ sport. First, I have news for college presidents that we already have a thing we call ‘spring football’ where the players seem to be very much involved in the sport. But second, a three round playoff is only going to affect eight schools. These were already going to bowl games anyway, so its really only four teams getting an extra game and two getting two extra. But wait, if you take out the conference championships you now have only one extra game. And if that still concerns you, take away those stupid preseason games that don’t count against the team’s allotment. Third, don’t tell me there’s no time to schedule the extra games. Look at that dead period that we call December. And despite ‘tradition’ nothing but greed says that there has to be a full slate of games on New Years Day (and the day before and the day after and another one a couple of days after that and then finally a ‘championship’ game the next week.)
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
by Caradoc on May 22, 2008 10:03 AM CDT 0 recs
Its the FSU pick that baffles me.
I am ok with Miami and USC, I do not neccessarily agree, but I understand the argument. His argument seems to be that FSU went wire to wire, while that may be impressive, It is hardly Texas fault they were ranked #2 all season. FSU did not play as tough a schedule, did not score as many points and di not beat a championship opponent equal to Texas opponent.
by billb on May 22, 2008 10:17 AM CDT 0 recs
the media love fest surrounding that team was unreal
More may have been written about Chris Weinke, Peter Warrick, Dan Kendra, Travis Minor and Sebastian Janikowski than any other group of players in history. Their ranking on his list in pretty comic since they’re the inverse of Miami, the only serious NFL talent starting for that team was Corey Simon and maybe Janikowsi, who was a drunk kicker before it was cool to be so.
As you say, they weren’t as impressive as others ranked below them, but I figure the level of overexposure skewed his list, which seems to be based on no set criteria in the first place.
by learned hand on
May 22, 2008 6:54 PM CDT
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only disagreement I have with those rankings
is I would put Florida at #5, and bump everyone down accordingly.
Some of y’all who are so hot to put your team at #1 or even #2 are forgetting how pedestrian that texas team was on defense.
Do you remember falling behind Okie State before the great comeback? Letting A&M run all over your defense? Giving up 38 points and over 500 yds of total offense to USC? By my count, you had at least three games where you gave up over 200 yds rushing alone (A&M, OSU, USC); that is not the sign of a good defense.
by Beergut on May 22, 2008 1:53 PM CDT 0 recs
Forgetting?
We are not forgetting. We are outscoring. With Vince Young. Who proved unstoppable.
No way to know for sure, but it’s far from unreasonable to believe he’d beat any team, anywhere.
--PB--
by PB @ BON on
May 22, 2008 2:09 PM CDT
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What? Pedestrian?
Far be it for me to put facts out on the table, but in 2005:
Texas had the 10th ranked overall defense in the nation. Including 4th nationally against the pass, and 8th in scoring defense, despite the fact that we had several blowouts, and didn’t have our starters out for entire games.
3 games that year teams didn’t score more than a field goal against Texas. Those teams combined record: 18-17
The top rated D in 2005 (VaTech) did the same to three teams. Those teams combined record: 10-23
Besides the title game, only 4 teams scored more than 20 points against our D, all were away games for Texas; none scored over 30.
If thats pedestrian, Ill take it just about any year. Last years defense was pedestrian, 2005 was at the very least, a good defense.
Yes USC put up 38 points on us, yet they averaged 50 points a game going into the game, and 55.7 points per game at home.
by BoddickerIsClutch on
May 22, 2008 3:08 PM CDT
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last year's defense sucked
I don’t know how you can argue it was anything but pitiful.
If you can’t hold the other team’s offense to less than 300 yds total offense per game, you are a pedestrian defense. Sub-300 yds is where you start to see “good” defenses.
PB makes the argument that Miami’s 2001 team had a weakness at run defense, b/c they gave up 133 yds per game.
The ‘05 texas defense gave up 131 yds rushing per game. Wow, that is SO much better than Miami’s defense
by Beergut on
May 23, 2008 10:27 AM CDT
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But WE wouldn't have to stop Vince Young.
THEY would. Got it now? Okay.
--Horn Brain--
by Horn Brain on
May 23, 2008 10:56 AM CDT
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Well I guess thats where our definitions vary
To be clear, these are the ones I am using, which should be considered accepted definitions.
Pedestrian – Commonplace, Undistinguished; ordinary
Good – satisfactory in quality, quantity, or degree
Being top 10 in the nation in 2005, hell in any year, Im going to go ahead and stay with good.
2005 Texas D averaged 302.9 yards given up a game, I suppose by your 300 cutoff, you would call that pedestrian. Call it semantics if you want, but your poor diction prevents your arguments from making sense.
Last year was pedestrian, ranking 55th overall. Thats about as undistinguished and ordinary as you can get. Pitiful? Id look more towards the bottom of the spectrum for pitiful defenses, such as the 83rd ranked Aggies, 98th ranked Stanford (they beat USC…), and the 112th Corn Huskers.
by BoddickerIsClutch on
May 23, 2008 11:46 AM CDT
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I'm sure you're aware that
they only give points for rushing in Fantasy Football.
The 2005 defense was good enough to ensure an average of a 33.8 point margin of victory. To put that in perspective, UT’s 2005 average margin of victory was higher than the average number of points the 2005 A&M team scored per game.
That they allowed so few close games is a much better indicator of defensive ability than simple rushing statistics.
by learned hand on
May 22, 2008 6:28 PM CDT
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PB used rushing defense as his criteria for why Miami's '01 team has a weakness
I’m just using the same criteria for ‘05 texas.
by Beergut on
May 23, 2008 10:28 AM CDT
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Beergro, your argument comes up short...
much like your swimming pool.
How pedestrian was that 05 defense in the Shoe agaist tOSU and why don’t you ask Joel Klatt about the modest hits he took in the 05 Big XII Championship…oh yeah, you can’t because Klatt is stil convinced he spent that day Chuck E. Cheese.
BTW, did you know that Burnt Orange Poeple like believing we’re victims of a vast East Coast sporting conspiracy even though we know we can pick up a phone anytime we want and buy the state of Connecticut for a cash on the barrel head.
Be nobody but yourself in a world that desperately wants you to be like everybody else.
by 54b on May 22, 2008 2:29 PM CDT 6 recs
your rebuttal is
drawn from a game against a Jim Tressel led offense? Jim Tressel, the guy who makes RC Slocum look like Mike Leach with his conservative nature on offense? Really?
IIRC, that Ohio State team was still rotating starting QBs; Tressel had yet to figure out that Troy Smith was the future of his offense, mainly b/c Smith had yet to play in a game that season, sitting out a suspension for taking money from a booster.
And your other evidence is a Buffalo team that sucked?
That’s the best you can do?
Hell, while we’re at it, why not throw in a sorry Baylor team? You shut them out, remember?
You can’t give up 700+ yds rushing in 3 games and claim to be a good defense. End of story.
by Beergut on
May 23, 2008 10:36 AM CDT
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Ooooo
He said end of story. There is no response to that, because the story has already ended.
by Wells on
May 23, 2008 11:00 AM CDT
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Agreed.
Our national championship winning defense must have sucked extra balls because we barely beat USC. If we’d played defense even just ok, we would have mopped the floor with USC, despite the fact that some people are having an argument over whether USC’s offense was the best in the last ten years. I guess that qualifies their offense as “ok,” judging by your defensive standards. Luckily for them they didn’t play a team with a good defense for the previous THIRTY MUTHA-FUCKIN’ GAMES!
Obviously, nothing will convince you that Texas had a good defense in ‘05. Why don’t you go start a thread at Texags about it so that someone will agree with you? If you just want to post something no one will agree with for the sake of getting people to gripe at you, then you’ve got no place here.
--Horn Brain--
by Horn Brain on
May 23, 2008 11:46 AM CDT
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Hit'em again HB and put some stank on it
As for BG, he’s just got Bitter Beergut face knowing the Wrecking Crew couldn’t raze a tepee these days…and I will throw that Baylor team in there while I’m at it because if memory serves, they beat A&M that year…holler.
Silly Aggie, go rub one out to your Ty Detmer Holiday Bowl tape and leave us alone.
Besides Burnt Orange People like prolific O’s unlike Maroon people who have an unnatural obsession with Stiff D’s.
Be nobody but yourself in a world that desperately wants you to be like everybody else.
by 54b on
May 23, 2008 2:47 PM CDT
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Funny math
I find it passing odd that USC had essentially the same team in 2004 and 2005, except that the 2005 team was more experienced. And yet the Texas team that defeated the 2005 team is ranked below the 2004 team. Now how does that make sense?
USC 2005 > USC 2004
Texas 2005 > USC 2005
ERGO
Texas 2005>USC 2004
QED
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
by Caradoc on May 22, 2008 2:36 PM CDT 0 recs
Premise #1
Is where some folks disagree. That ‘04 Trojan defense was superior, and the offense far from shabby.
Nothing wrong with your argument, either, but it’s not unreasonable to take the ‘04 Trojans as the better of the two.
--PB--
by PB @ BON on
May 22, 2008 2:43 PM CDT
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