5 Stars

because getting both of them would've been horrible right?

by abcdmetrius on Jun 29, 2008 10:44 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

greed

We can’t be greedy! Only 1 QB can play at a time.

by Longhorns84 on Jun 29, 2008 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would have eaten my hat if RS started at QB. .nt whills

by Horn Brain on Jun 29, 2008 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

same here...nt whills

by learned hand on Jun 29, 2008 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

RS

then we would have to listen to everyone complain about him not being able throw the ball.

by Longhorns84 on Jun 29, 2008 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You give

......way too much credit for the ranking assigned to recruits before they even step on the playing field.

Spend more time assessing the development skills of QB/OC coaches. Miami, Florida State and Penn State are good examples of programs that recently have drawn plenty 5-star* and high-4-star* QB recruits that have ultimately been busts on the playing field! A program can attract all the talent in the world. However, if their staff has poor teaching skills, then they will do poorly, or fail.

BTW, Tim Tebow of Florida is a 5-star* QB. Cody Green, a 5-star* QB from Texas, is split between Nebraska and A&M, so one of them will probably be gaining their future star at the position.

Like it or not, OU has always showed the ability to win Conf. Championships (5 in Stoops’ era) without the services of a 5-star* QB. Year in and year out, they’ve always provided good QB development skills. Surprisingly, Greg Davis has always showed good teaching skills for our QBs.

--- All roads to the Big-XII Championship lead through OU/RRS. It's not just another game! We're all about championships here. ---

by HornChamps on Jun 29, 2008 12:22 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Tim Tebow

will not be a good NFL Qb..OU has had problems winning BCS games, and only has 1 championship. I think if they had better QB’s, they might win a little more.

by Longhorns84 on Jun 29, 2008 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well....

.....if nothing else, I at least taught you how to spell Tim Tebow’s last name accurately.

Whether Tebow is successful in the NFL or not, he already has a Nat’l Championship ring and a Heisman to show for his first two years of effort. Your history would not make me feel overly confident in your ability to pick NFL success. Just the fact that you are making your prediction prior to Tim’s senior season hacks away at your credibility.

Try to remember that OU was playing in those BCS games because they were able to win Big-XII Championships that our Longhorns were not able to win. Three of those 5 BCS Bowls were games for the Nat’l Championship. We had the better QB in the majority of those seasons. So much the accuracy of your prediction.

--- All roads to the Big-XII Championship lead through OU/RRS. It's not just another game! We're all about championships here. ---

by HornChamps on Jun 29, 2008 7:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well...

Thanks professor.

My history picking NFL success?? What the hell are you talking about? Hopefully he’ll be smart and stay his senior season.

I’m not a fan of BCS games unless its a national championship game. A regular BCS game really doesn’t mean anything more than a regular bowl game, except the school makes more money (I’m a fan of the playoff system). I think ou probably feels the same way, thats why they lose all the time.

by Longhorns84 on Jun 29, 2008 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Okies have feelings? Sonofabitch.

No wonder they lose all those games.

by whills on Jun 29, 2008 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cody Green

is barely only a 4 star QB on rivals.

by Longhorns84 on Jun 29, 2008 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let me

.......makeit easy on you. Scout’s ratings of recruits are available back to 2002. Please tell me which Longhorn was not deserving of his 5-star* ranking.

Frankly, trying to win an argument relying upon Rivals’ ranking only is pretty sophomoric. They are far from the most accurate service. Be wise and consider both.

--- All roads to the Big-XII Championship lead through OU/RRS. It's not just another game! We're all about championships here. ---

by HornChamps on Jun 29, 2008 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rivals

I think Scouts give 5 star rankings out too easy.

by Longhorns84 on Jun 29, 2008 7:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

As I said

......before. Go ahead and point out which Longhorn was undeserving of his 5-star* rating.

Fifty HS players from the entire country is too many? That belly laugh you hear is mine.

--- All roads to the Big-XII Championship lead through OU/RRS. It's not just another game! We're all about championships here. ---

by HornChamps on Jun 29, 2008 9:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rivals

I think Scouts give 5 star rankings out too easy.

by Longhorns84 on Jun 29, 2008 7:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

This post makes my brain hurt

I think the QB play the past couple years has been mediocre at best. The usual top teams in the country have average qb’s running their offenses, which lead to more average qb’s taking the stage (Daniels, Reesing, Bradford, Teebow, Harrel, McCoy, ect.).

This is utterly confusing. Are you saying the QB play across the country has been mediocre? I don’t think that is true. Also, how does that transfer into your second sentence, which I also don’t understand. Your examples don’t really support your argument. Daniels is not just an average QB, and also does not play for a “usual top team”. Reesing also not playing for usual top team. Bradford I guess fits your argument, but I would not call him average, considering he broke a bunch of records as a freshman. Teebow won the Heisman and MNC as a sophomore, not exactly average. Harrell is the highest rated recruit that tech has ever had. McCoy took over for the most dominate QB in the history of the sport (IMO).

Teams with 5 star QB recruits playing or soon to be playing: Notre Dame, USC, Texas, Ohio State, LSU, Arkansas, and even Missouri. I could almost bet that these teams are going to be in contention the next 2-3 years.

Don’t go too far out on a limb picking USC, Texas, Ohio State and LSU to be in contention, they are only 4 of the 5 teams that have been in the national championship game for the last 3 years.

by Wells on Jun 29, 2008 1:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

It makes at least as much sense...

... as the Limas diatribe did. You’ve got to give him that.

by Horn Brain on Jun 29, 2008 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What? Limas...wasn't me.. I think Limas was great

by Longhorns84 on Jun 29, 2008 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

AVERAGE

When I say average, I mean future NFL talent.

by Longhorns84 on Jun 29, 2008 3:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

nfl

Why should we give a crap about whether a quarterback has “average future NFL talent”? It has no bearing on their effectiveness at the collegiate level. There are plenty of great quarterbacks in college who won’t ever amount to anything in the NFL.

by Jason Mayer on Jun 29, 2008 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

NFL

If a player plays in the NFL, that means they are good!

by Longhorns84 on Jun 29, 2008 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It means they have specific passing skills

and leadership skills which translate to NFL systems. And they may not be that good at the upper collegiate level (Tony Romo, Eastern Illinois) or Terry Bradshaw (La. Podunk) among the many who came from smaller schools. That happens nearly every year and those guys didn’t have many stars by their names as recruits.

So, the conclusion is that colleges and the NFL require somewhat different tool kits in terms of the skilled athletes required for given positions. A given amount of the star-rating system is hype even though there are positive correlations. They are a function of media, not necessarily the athletes involved.

If you want to go after something interesting, you might try to determine if the collegiate game is converging toward the NFL, with a certain push towards common tools for the QB position.

by whills on Jun 29, 2008 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

tom brady

i believe only started his senior year in college and was drafted in the fifth round but turned out to be a great nfl qb and an OK college qb. there is a BIG difference between a good college qb, and a great nfl qb….. jason white

by Hook'em13 on Jun 29, 2008 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Brady

I think the team around Tom Brady makes him look much better than he really is. I think Brady would suck if he played on the Raiders or a team that wasn’t great around him.

by Longhorns84 on Jun 29, 2008 7:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Isn't that pretty much always true.

Brady is a precise passer as long as he has time. It is the precision of his execution that puts him into the position to be great. The exception would be, say, Chicago the SB year; no one call Rex Grossman great (except maybe his momma). The pros covet that precision and work to surround such a player with assets. That’s what the Cowboys are doing with Romo; Pittsburgh and others are doing the same thing. If you execute the play perfectly, you can’t be stopped is the truism which springs forth.

Few college teams operate with that level of precision. Some can. Missouri last year was a good example. OU in the first quarter of most games is another. But few teams can sustain it for a whole game or season. VY had such precision in ‘05 – but he also had a set of fabulous legs in case he didn’t.

You just don’t want to give up the generalization, 84.

by whills on Jun 29, 2008 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You responded at the same time I did

but better with much less sarcasm.

by Wells on Jun 29, 2008 9:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yours was just fine. Sarcasm was perfect touch. nt

by whills on Jun 29, 2008 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Brady

Bradford has the same luxury as Brady…A LOT of time. We will see how good Bradford is next year

by Longhorns84 on Jun 30, 2008 5:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

he gonna have the same...

...luxury as he did last year…they return all their o-line, and only lose malcolm kelly, so i think the year after that is when you will really see

by vy til i die on Jun 30, 2008 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah..2009

by Longhorns84 on Jun 30, 2008 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Right

And Steve Young and Joe Montana would have sucked if it was not for Jerry Rice.

Aikman was a bum who was lucky to have Irvin and Smith.

And Peyton Manning throws like a girl, but Marvin Harris just catches his lame passes for touchdowns all the time.

by Wells on Jun 29, 2008 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

Manning

I’ll take Manning over Brady anyday.

by Longhorns84 on Jun 30, 2008 5:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

??

Right, and I will gladly trade you 1 million dollars for 2 million, but that does not be that having one million is all that bad.

by Wells on Jun 30, 2008 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Quick

.......grab another shovel. You can did your hole twice as fast.

--- All roads to the Big-XII Championship lead through OU/RRS. It's not just another game! We're all about championships here. ---

by HornChamps on Jun 29, 2008 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sports Center

I think you watch too much sports center. Peyton Manning makes great passes every game. Brady mainly throws short passes, and goes long to wide open receivers

by Longhorns84 on Jun 30, 2008 5:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I hear Chinese! nt

by whills on Jun 29, 2008 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I guess I see where you're coming from

Though I think you’re taking a 5 star high school QB to indicate NFL talent, which it doesn’t (i.e. Chris Leak, Xavier Lee). Regardless, it’s always nice to have a great QB who obviously has all the skills for the next level, but a lot of the traits necessary to succeed in the NFL aren’t necessary in College, i.e:

Starting QB’s for BCS MNC winners.

2007 LSU- Matt Flynn/Ryan “Gamecock” Perriloux
2006 Florida- Chris Leak/Tebow
2005 Texas- VY
2004 USC- Lineart
2003 LSU- Matt Mauck
2002 tOSU- Craig Krenzel
2001 Miami- Ken Dorsey
2000 Oklahoma- Josh Huepel
1999 Florida State- Chris Weinke
1998 Tennessee- Tee Martin

Other than VY, and potentially Lineart and Tebow (with whom we can’t guess yet.), none of these guys were good NFL QBs. Actually, “average” would be pretty generous.

Compare that to the younger guys who have had good NFL success recently, like Phillip Rivers, Eli Manning, Tony Romo, Ben Rothlesberger, and Jay Cutler, none of whom made their college teams championship contenders, or were even 5 star, or 4 star players.

Whether one of these new 5 stars will bring NFL tools to the table and make his college team a champion (or a BCS winner) we can’t say, i.e. VY did, Chris Simms didn’t.

by learned hand on Jun 29, 2008 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

should have...

...read “were necessarily even” rather than “were even”.

by learned hand on Jun 29, 2008 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

With all love & respect to Vince

Other than VY, and potentially Lineart and Tebow (with whom we can’t guess yet.), none of these guys were good NFL QBs. Actually, "average" would be pretty generous.

21 TDs, 30 INTs, and a 69.0 QB Rating do not define a good NFL QB. He may still become one, but he’s not there yet.

So you're saying that now I have to think of some witty Sig that will be applicable across all the SBN sites? Go Texan Horn Stros!

by Shake on Jul 1, 2008 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ah, but 10-6 shouts a different tune.

VY wins, and in the NFL, that is the bottom line.

He’s not great, but he knows where he’s going.

by whills on Jul 1, 2008 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agree to Disagree?

Obviously, the future is wide open for VY in the NFL.

But I just don’t buy into the 10-6 because of Vince. First, because he is 17-12 as an NFL starting QB.

Second, do you think Rex Grossman is a badass NFL QB? Because he’s 19-11 as a starter, which is better than VY’s “starting record”.

Basically I’m saying that the starting record of an NFL QB is a pretty damn worthess statistic for comparison.

So you're saying that now I have to think of some witty Sig that will be applicable across all the SBN sites? Go Texan Horn Stros!

by Shake on Jul 2, 2008 7:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I realized

that someone might quibble with the assertion that Vince Young is “good”. There are a few areas which I based the comment on, though none are particularly definitive.

1) His winning record, which is due in large part to the Titan’s defense, but cannot be discounted in any league in which Trent Dilfer is a champion. (channels John Madden) “If you are good enough not to lose, eventually you could be good enough to win.”
2) He saw marked improvement in his completion percentage from year one to year two, despite having a poor receiving corps (and I don’t care how many articles ESPN writes about them being underrated, it’s a horrid group of players.)
3) His pro bowl election, while largely influenced by his popularity post Rose Bowl, still reflects his overall ability to impact the game. Vince Young requires a unique game plan, which is largely unique compared to any other young quarterback in the league.
4) That his team appears have a great deal of faith in him, unlike other recently drafted quarterbacks.
5) The fact that, if he retired today, he would be head and shoulders above every other player on that list.

Inevitably, calling VY good is basing it on potential. His statistics through his first two years are markedly better than Steve Young’s, and his first year isn’t far off of Peyton Manning’s. That said, those numbers mean less about Vince’s future than about how difficult it is to play QB in the NFL. So when I say VY is “good” please take that in the context of “he plays well enough to become a good NFL quarterback”, rather than that he is good enough to be a great asset at the moment. Few QB’s do well enough for one to even make that argument.

by learned hand on Jul 2, 2008 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

Simply a choice of words that caused this?

Inevitably, calling VY good is basing it on potential.

However in your original statement, you spoke of VY as a good NFL QB in the past tense. Maybe that’s the phrase I am taking exception to.

So you're saying that now I have to think of some witty Sig that will be applicable across all the SBN sites? Go Texan Horn Stros!

by Shake on Jul 3, 2008 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Obvious verb tense problem

Made more severe because “were” was used to modify a reference to the potential future careers of Leinart and Tebow.

Mea Culpa.

by learned hand on Jul 3, 2008 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Switch out

“were” with “may become” or “can become”, whichever you prefer.

Either seems fairly accurate given the names on the list, though I understand Matt Mauck has a bright future in dentistry.

by learned hand on Jul 3, 2008 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Interesting.

It's a Horns' world. Even Aggies play hoops with a burnt orange ball.
Is it football season YET?

by Speedway on Jul 3, 2008 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Grossman had a SB level team around him.

Yet Grossman can’t even command the respect of most of Chicago. It can be said he didn’t screw up enough to keep then out of the SB – but it’s also true he wasn’t good enough to lead the Bears to a win when they got there.

I felt the Titans’ 10-6 finish last year was just about their limit, given their injured RB (White), their lack of speed of the receivers and the thinness of their defense.

Yes, Haynesworth is a player and obviously a leader by example and they had just enough strength to stay alive late in the season; they did much better than I expected.

The key is that the team improved two games, which was a big jump for their talent and they made the playoffs. Those two games were the make-it-or-break line in the NFL. That success will put fans in the seats and keep the front office happy.

I think Fisher had a choice: either add players as he could – and he still has salary cap room for more – and get this team up a notch for a couple of more victories and a shot at the SB; or scrap it and rebuild it from scratch around VY, aiming for the time when he will be a mature QB several years down the road. Fisher’s action tends to tell me he is playing for right now, this year and next.

It’s rhetorical whether he has made the best moves or not at this point. Some scream for the big, fast receiver; I think he needs more defensive help, because that’s more crucial in the playoffs, certainly a better OL and more depth all over.

This is the pros; VY can’t do it alone. It seemed like he did in ‘05, but the more we look at that team, the more we realize he was surrounded by a powerful cast that complemented his abilities and put him in position to do what he does best when the game was on the line: Win the game for you. When it comes down to that moment, he’s the man you want for the job and there’s only a handful of other who actually compare at that moment.

When Tennessee took VY, they were mediocre. Now they’re at the edge of contention but not anyone’s favorite to take it all the way. But if they win 11 or 12 this year and hit the playoffs again – relatively healthy – few teams will want to face them because they have one of the most dangerous players in football at the controls.

It’s not just that Vince has potential or is good or will maybe be great – it’s that on the field right now he is extremely dangerous and can do things to beat you even when you’ve done everything correctly. That is the NFL nightmare that Fisher is trying to bring into being while VY’s legs are still young and fresh. The rest is just prologue, the standard logic of normal growth, in what I see as a quite non-linear equation. Vince is the discontinuity for which you can’t account. And I see this window of opportunity not being open that long. And I suspect that is part of the motivating force for Fisher’s logic.

by whills on Jul 3, 2008 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

Again...

I’m not arguing anything you’ve written regarding his NFL potential, intangibles, what the team around him might or might not be, etc. I simply said that to date, VY has not posted the statistics of a good NFL QB.

So you're saying that now I have to think of some witty Sig that will be applicable across all the SBN sites? Go Texan Horn Stros!

by Shake on Jul 3, 2008 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

your right

by Longhorns84 on Jun 29, 2008 5:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Calling Tim Tebow average

Is like saying Jessica Alba has an ok body.

by Meekrob on Jun 29, 2008 7:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Tebow is a great college QB..thats it

not NFL

by Longhorns84 on Jun 30, 2008 5:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Two questions

1. If you’re talking about schools getting 5 star QB recruits, then aren’t you talking about their performance in college? Do you even know what you’re talking about anymore?

2. How do you know he’s not a good NFL quarterback? Do you have a time machine? The things I see from him - a strong, accurate arm, durable body, good mobility, intelligence, the ability to improvise, leadership, a healthy off-the-field lifestyle - all seem to add up to a high probability of NFL success. I imagine experts (NFL Scouts) will agree with me when he goes in the top 5 of the draft. So what makes you, the most oblivious fool who regularly posts on this college football blog, an expert on scouting NFL talent and what makes you think he’s not going to do well?

by Meekrob on Jun 30, 2008 8:11 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

not a good passer

Tebow is not a good passer ,and he won’t be able to run in the NFL.

by Longhorns84 on Jun 30, 2008 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

fool

by Longhorns84 on Jun 30, 2008 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think a fool would be someone

Who calls a 2-year QB, 1-yr starter, Heisman Trophy Winner, and National Champion with these career stats, a bad passer.

67% Career completion.
37 TDs to just 7 picks
A 3200 yard season
9.5 yards per attempt

And thats without any running.

Seriously, you are barking up the wrong tree with Tebow. Not that anyone can really tell what the point of this whole thread is anyway.

by BoddickerIsClutch on Jun 30, 2008 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

No point, but it's escalating quickly; it's really getting out of hand fast...nt whills

by learned hand on Jun 30, 2008 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Learned hand

I keep thinking you need an avatar. Image search your name and you’ll see some very nice snapshots of you looking especially astute. And then there’s a popular one where you are leaning with your chin in your left hand. No so astute.

It's a Horns' world. Even Aggies play hoops with a burnt orange ball.
Is it football season YET?

by Speedway on Jun 30, 2008 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not* so astute. Grrr, I hate that.

It's a Horns' world. Even Aggies play hoops with a burnt orange ball.
Is it football season YET?

by Speedway on Jun 30, 2008 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

late to the party

But Tim Tebow is god; just ask EDSBS or those little Filipino children.

by jc25 on Jun 30, 2008 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're not late! Right on time.

Tebow is an exciting player. A great college football player. The discussion should be over there. Then feel everyone can feel free to speculate on his NFL career.

It's a Horns' world. Even Aggies play hoops with a burnt orange ball.
Is it football season YET?

by Speedway on Jun 30, 2008 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

that explains the circumcisions...marking his chosen tribe

by learned hand on Jun 30, 2008 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

BRAVO! BRAVO! It looks very dignified.

It's a Horns' world. Even Aggies play hoops with a burnt orange ball.
Is it football season YET?

by Speedway on Jun 30, 2008 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thank you, sir. I do what I can.

by learned hand on Jun 30, 2008 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tebow

last year was his 1st year as a starter, and they loss 4 games.
Tebow = bigger Stephen McGee on a better team

by Longhorns84 on Jun 30, 2008 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you knew anything about Florida football

Which you don’t, but if you did, you’d know that their struggles were almost entirely on the defensive side of the ball after losing 9 starters from their championship year.

Hell, if you knew anything about football, which you don’t, but if you did, you’d know that a team’s success is not based around one player.

by Meekrob on Jun 30, 2008 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You've obviously never seen him play

But even glancing at his stats would show you that you’re wrong.

by Meekrob on Jun 30, 2008 8:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

stats

its college football.. half the games are against crummy teams

by Longhorns84 on Jun 30, 2008 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Weak schedule

He played all those crummy teams like Georgia, LSU, Auburn, Tennessee, Michigan, and Florida St.

Ok, ok, Florida St. sucks, but that’s as tough a schedule as anyone in the country played last year.

'Til Gabriel blows his horn...

by mattyj on Jun 30, 2008 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

they lossed to most of the good teams

what about the non-conference games?

by Longhorns84 on Jun 30, 2008 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Florida had the third toughest schedule in the country

But continue to ignore that like you ignore everything else that disputes claims you make with absolutely know background knowledge on the subject.

by Meekrob on Jun 30, 2008 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

what games did Florida lose? What games did they win?

by Longhorns84 on Jun 30, 2008 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Spelling is a lossed art

In Mack Brown We Trust!

by Cyrus on Jun 30, 2008 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs

Lost, lost, lost, won, lost, won

Geez, FL’s defense was really horrible. All I remember seeing was their bowl game when 13 games into the season the safeties were still blowing coverages on wide open Adrian Arringtons and that huge TE M has. And, watching that game, Tebow got absolutely mauled by M’s D-line. He never had a second to throw the ball. It was an absolute miracle that he didn’t throw four picks instead of getting four TD’s. I didn’t even notice how good his bad day was. This is an extreme case of being better than the team around you, a la VY and the Titans. I think that’s a good example, since L84 says Vince has a bad team around him, but is still awesome. The difference is this is college, so Tebow can still make some good plays while being eaten alive in the backfield, or he’s playing against horrible competition. In the NFL, with a team as relatively horrid (due to youth, don’t eat me Orson, whoever you are) as FL, he’d be on par with Vince.

by Horn Brain on Jun 30, 2008 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

agree

but..I think VY is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than Tebow.

by Longhorns84 on Jun 30, 2008 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

NFL draft

The QB drafted the past 2 years in the draft haven’t been that good. J Russel and Matt Ryan aren’t worth the money given to them. I don’t think there are any great QB’s coming out of the draft for awhile.

by Longhorns84 on Jun 30, 2008 5:27 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Tebow

I don’t think Tebow was a particularly great Heisman winner (the candidates the past two years pale in comparison to the three monsters Young, Bush, and Leinart in 2005), and I do think his stats are slightly inflated. If we wanted to, we could have given VY a lot more TD’s if we called his number when we were near the goalline. And if we played him like jerks when we were manhandling nearly every team we played.

However, I don’t think Tebow is “overrated.” He has the makings of a great college QB. Will he be great in the pros? I don’t know. I know he won’t be able to run like a fullback in the NFL, unless he wants to die. But he has an impressive arm and a competitive streak that can help him at the next level.

In any case, I’ll agree with Longhorns84 that succeeding in the NFL does indeed mean you’re good (after all, it’s the highest level of football), but I’ll disagree that it retroactively determines if you were great in college. Tommy Frazier was a great college QB, but obviously, since you can’t run the option to death in the NFL, he couldn’t translate that to the next level. That doesn’t take away from his college accomplishments. Even if VY turns out to be a bust (he’s not), he’s still the greatest college QB in my eyes.

by TheElusiveShadow on Jun 30, 2008 9:46 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I am having a hard time with these 2 statements:

I don’t think Tebow was a particularly great Heisman winner, and I do think his stats are slightly inflated.

However, I don’t think Tebow is "overrated."

It's a Horns' world. Even Aggies play hoops with a burnt orange ball.
Is it football season YET?

by Speedway on Jun 30, 2008 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tebow's Heisman Year

He had more Total Offense than Vince did in 2005, a better completion percentage, more passing TDs, and 60% the interceptions.

Im not saying hes better than Vince. But I think most everyone around here anyway would argue that Vince in 2005 was one of the best college QB performances in the history of the sport. If Tebow is in the same league as that, and statistically, if you throw the retarded number of rushing TDs in there on top, even superior, I don’t see how you can say he wasn’t a great Heisman winner.

If that was his senior or junior season, there would not have ever been a question about who won it. Hell he personally scored more TDs on the year than 93 D-1 teams. Teams included in that list? How about USC, Ohio State, Georiga, Nebraska, Clemson, aTm…

He was the first player EVER to go 20-20 with rushing and passing TDs.

Look, inflated or not, that is a hell of a freaking year, and one of the more impressive Heisman winners in recent history.

by BoddickerIsClutch on Jun 30, 2008 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

BiC I agree with you. Tebow was an incredible Heisman winner

It's a Horns' world. Even Aggies play hoops with a burnt orange ball.
Is it football season YET?

by Speedway on Jun 30, 2008 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

it's the SYSTEM...

...that allowed him to score all those TD’s. If they had a RB like Texas did in ‘05 (Ramonce, Jamaal, Selvin), he wouldn’t have scored so much.

by vy til i die on Jun 30, 2008 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

VY

If you put VY on the Patriots, Steelers, or Cowboys, he wouldn’t be struggling. He needs some help.

by Longhorns84 on Jun 30, 2008 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I should clarify

Tebow deserved his Heisman, because he’s only competing against the current playing field. As we all know, however, this past college football season was rather less than impressive. Tebow wasn’t as great as the three in ‘05, but comparing him to his own field (as we should), he did well enough to merit the award.

As far as his numbers being slightly inflated, I was referring to his 20+ TD’s rushing. That was mostly because Florida lacked a number 1 runningback (which they hope Emmanuel Moody can fill) and Tebow’s number was called near the goalline nearly every time. Thus, I find VY’s 3000-1000 much more impressive than Tebow’s 20-20. Furthermore, Tebow was handled by a Michigan team that struggled most of the year (heck, Michigan still won despite committing a whopping FOUR turnovers, a couple of them in scoring position), a team less talented than the one Vince wrecked on in the Rose Bowl.

None of this means I don’t think Tebow is good. I think he’ll be a great college QB, but he won the award largely because a) A weak college football year and b) His name recognition. I’m not saying his production wasn’t good, but obviously, several things contributed for the first sophomore player to win the Heisman. Whether you agree with it or not, the voters obviously have a bias against underclassmen, and in normal circumstances, Tebow would not have won it.

by TheElusiveShadow on Jun 30, 2008 10:27 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Sorry...

Not “he’ll be a great college QB.” I agree that he already is. All I’m saying is that I felt his stats were slightly inflated (as I feel about Colt Brennan and any Texas Tech QB), and I think people are labeling him as Superman when he’s not (at least, not yet). But if you want to convince me Tebow is great, there’s no need. I’m already buying that. It seems Longhorns84 does not.

by TheElusiveShadow on Jun 30, 2008 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Its tough to seperate the team from the player

But not really when you are talking about Tebow.

They did lose to Michigan, Tebow scored 4 TDs (3 in the air) and had no turnovers. I don’t know what else you can expect him to do besides go suit up on defense.

I guess I see that him winning as a sophomore is even more an indication of how deserving it was, not a reason to exemplify how weak a field it was. Its not like hes the first QB to ever find himself in a favorable situation. He still put up over 4100 yard of total offense, which as I said, was more than Vince. Goalline situations or not.

by BoddickerIsClutch on Jun 30, 2008 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Against Michigan

Tebow only completed 51.5% of his passes for a paltry 4.6 yards per attempt. Also, he only averaged 3.6 yards per attempt off 16 rushes. He wasn’t bad, but that was far from a Heisman-caliber performance. Chalk one more up for the “curse.”

It most certainly isn’t all his fault, as you can never blame one player for a loss (hint Longhorns: That includes Simms), but considering the mistakes Michigan made, there’s no reason why Florida didn’t put them away. You give VY four turnovers and see what happens.

As far as putting up more numbers than Vince, that’s because he threw 25 more times than Vince and rushed for a whopping 55 more times. His yards per pass attempt are just barely over Vince’s (9.39 to 9.34), but Vince’s rush yards per attempt trounces Tebow’s easily (6.78 to 4.26). Furthermore, VY performed better against ranked opponents. Consider, against ranked opponents (ranked by the end of the bowl season):

Tebow: Passing: 77/127, 1048 yds, 60.6%, 8.25 ypa, 9 TDs, 3 INTs, 148.6. Rushing: 82 attempts, 245 yds, 2.99 ypa, 7 TDs. 1-4 record.
Vince: Passing: 74/118, 1017 yds, 62.7&, 8.62 ypa, 7 TDs, 4 ints, 147.9. Rushing: 66 attempts, 366 yards, 5.81 ypa, 4 tds. 4-0 record

I’m not trying to hate on Tebow, as I agree he’s a great player, but VY did more with less attempts (he also sat out a lot of second halves because we were killing teams). And, while some perceive it to be unfair, QB’s are ultimately judged by how well they deliver victories. I’ll definitely grant that no one player can win by himself, but Tebow did not play particularly great in their four losses. He wasn’t awful, but he wasn’t that good. Really, when’s the last time a player from a three loss team won the Heisman (four losses after the bowl season)? Fair or not, it is rare for Heisman winners to come from teams that aren’t contending, which again points to the fact that last year was one crazy year with no truly great teams.

Sorry; I’m bored at work. It’s probably silly for us to argue the little details since we both agree that Tebow is great, against Longhorns84. But I need something to take my time.

by TheElusiveShadow on Jun 30, 2008 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

By the way...

Yes, I’m aware Ricky won it when we lost three times. Just in case someone brought that up. But that was ten years ago, and the current trend is to give to players who are on teams that are in contention.

by TheElusiveShadow on Jun 30, 2008 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Vince was better than Tebow is.

Want to get that out the way first. I’m not saying hes not. I’m saying if you can even compare the two, than he was a pretty good Heisman candidate. If you have to dig into stats to cement an opinion on it, than he was a pretty good Heisman candidate. I personally consider Vince, and the 2005 season especially, to be the greatest college QB (and season) ever. If you can even compare to the greatest ever, you are pretty good for any one particular year.

Example: Tim Couch’s senior Heisman year was almost as good as Vince Young’s 2005 campaign.

See the twisted face you made and perhaps the bit of bile that came up in the back of your throat? Obviously thats a terrible comparison, theres no question. Tebow, I dont think theres a question either, but its not terrible, there are much closer comparisons to be made.

As far as against ranked opponents, I dont know that you can judge much from that. Florida last year was not a great team, for many reasons, ranging from the running game to a porous defense to terrible kick off returns. ‘05 Texas on the other hand, beat the greatest team in the history of college football, had the top offense, and a top 10 defense.

If his stats were horrendous in those 5 games, that would be another story, but they are ranked teams because they are good, one should expect his stats to take a dip when he plays against better coaches, better cornerbacks, safeties, lineman etc…

As to the Vince sitting out, I think in considering passing its a wash. They were within 8% of each other on attempts, and both teams only had 11 pass attempts outside the starter. Rushing, however as you point out is a different matter. This discrepancy is probably two fold. 1) Lack of a goalline back alternative to Tebow as you point out, he got many of the power runs. 2) Vince sitting, and us running to turn out the clock. Texas ran the ball 605 times in 05, Florida did 487. Vince ran the ball on 26% of the carries, and Tebow had 43% As I said though, I do think Vince is the stronger runner. Vince did have a TD every 12.9 rushes, Tebow had one every 9.1

when’s the last time a player from a three loss team won the Heisman (four losses after the bowl season)? Fair or not, it is rare for Heisman winners to come from teams that aren’t contending, which again points to the fact that last year was one crazy year with no truly great teams.[/quote]

Again I just think that speaks to how strong a candidate he was, not that the field was exceptionally weak. He might not have beat out Vince in 2005 (or reggie apparently), but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t a strong winner irregardless.

by BoddickerIsClutch on Jun 30, 2008 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Holy crap

Screwed up the quote, I better watch my ass from here on out.

Really, when’s the last time a player from a three loss team won the Heisman (four losses after the bowl season)? Fair or not, it is rare for Heisman winners to come from teams that aren’t contending, which again points to the fact that last year was one crazy year with no truly great teams.

Again I just think that speaks to how strong a candidate he was, not that the field was exceptionally weak. He might not have beat out Vince in 2005 (or reggie apparently), but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t a strong winner irregardless.

by BoddickerIsClutch on Jun 30, 2008 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good points

I guess a part of me is just thinking, “Crap, VY was better than Troy Smith and Tebow, and he didn’t get the Heisman.” But that’s the way it goes. But as a shirt of mine says, “Who needs the Heisman?” We got the biggest prize.

Tebow arguably had more playmaking receivers, but he didn’t have Mr. David Thomas. At any rate, I think if we gave it to the “best” player last year, it probably should have gone to McFadden. Of course, they don’t always (or normally) do that.

And yes, Beergut will be here soon to point out how you screwed up the quote.

by TheElusiveShadow on Jun 30, 2008 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I hope it's not contagious. First BeerGuts, and now my friend BiC. nt whills.

It's a Horns' world. Even Aggies play hoops with a burnt orange ball.
Is it football season YET?

by Speedway on Jun 30, 2008 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Talent

The talent was way better in 2005 than in 2006 or 2007. If Tebow was playing in 05’, he might not have even been a candidate.

by Longhorns84 on Jun 30, 2008 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

He deserved it, because there really wasn’t anybody else. Hell, I remember hearing some people say a certain DT on LSU should win it!

by Longhorns84 on Jun 30, 2008 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

He deserved it, because there really wasn’t anybody else. Hell, I remember hearing some people say a certain DT on LSU should win it!

by Longhorns84 on Jun 30, 2008 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

by Longhorns84 on Jun 30, 2008 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

woah

did you do that on purpose?

by Horn Brain on Jun 30, 2008 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you post it twice

it makes a stronger point

by Wells on Jun 30, 2008 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions 6 recs

Both green now nt

by TheElusiveShadow on Jun 30, 2008 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you post it twice

it makes a stronger point

by Wells on Jun 30, 2008 1:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions 0 recs

by Wells on Jun 30, 2008 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs

84's streak of rough days

continues

by learned hand on Jun 30, 2008 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs

ROTFL!

I almost choked I was laughing so hard. I just hope ‘84 isn’t also having a rough day at work.

It's a Horns' world. Even Aggies play hoops with a burnt orange ball.
Is it football season YET?

by Speedway on Jun 30, 2008 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

no rough day

If everyone agreed with everyone, this site would be boring

by Longhorns84 on Jun 30, 2008 8:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rec'd +1

It's a Horns' world. Even Aggies play hoops with a burnt orange ball.
Is it football season YET?

by Speedway on Jun 30, 2008 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

This makes for a conundrum wrapped inside of an enigma

Which post do I recc? Is it the first one, which establishes the point, or the second one, which drives the point home?

What the hell, Ill tag them both. My mouse can die two clicks earlier.

by BoddickerIsClutch on Jun 30, 2008 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good work BiC , you chose wisely.

BON, where you can look up and see an orangutan swing overhead of a Chief Judge of the US Court of Appeals (Second Circuit).

(Kudos to wells and learned hand. You two made my day.)

It's a Horns' world. Even Aggies play hoops with a burnt orange ball.
Is it football season YET?

by Speedway on Jun 30, 2008 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Glad to be of service

by learned hand on Jun 30, 2008 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

accident!

by Longhorns84 on Jun 30, 2008 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

damn!

should’ve read all of the comments before i opened my mouth..as you can see above, i agree w/ your assessment

by vy til i die on Jun 30, 2008 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

and even more non sequiturs:

I like cheesburgers.

by Brandon 97 on Jun 30, 2008 12:56 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs

I agree

Some people think cucumbers taste better pickled.

by gwh65 on Jun 30, 2008 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

Thank you Brandon, for pointing out the theme of this thread

Namely

I love lamp

by learned hand on Jun 30, 2008 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fool

Manning.

Woof.

--PB--

by PB @ BON on Jun 30, 2008 1:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Too much football talk

it’s really just about wearin’ the right jorts!

by horndude on Jun 30, 2008 1:48 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs

Cue PB's Eminem barf video. .nt whills

by Horn Brain on Jun 30, 2008 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

PURPOSE

My intentions when I posted this post was to start a discussion about the future of college football. I think with the top caliber teams recruiting great talent at the QB position, we might have some magical years like 04’ and 05’. In my opinion, those two years were great because the talent level was so high. 2005 was the greatest because Texas won against USC, which was suppose to be the best team ever.

I don’t want to see 1 or 2 loss teams playing each other in the national championship.

by Longhorns84 on Jun 30, 2008 1:55 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

And 100 comments later

We finally get a bit of an explanation of what the hell you were talking about.

Might I suggest a five minute rule for your fanposts? As in write the post, wait five minutes, read the post and see if you can make any sense out of it from the prospective of someone else reading it who does not understand what your purpose was in writing it, edit it so it does make sense, then post it.

by Wells on Jun 30, 2008 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs

Wait..

So the NFL doesn’t have anything to do with this? Or did it?

I’m still confused.

by BoddickerIsClutch on Jun 30, 2008 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have to admit...

I’m confused. I’ll only comment on ‘05, but I would argue that ‘05 was a magical year, not because the talent level was so high, but because it was so concentrated. The Trojans and the Horns had collectively assembled what amounted to two NFL caliber teams in the college game (amazingly) and that led to two undefeated teams meeting in the national championship game and having the most amazing title game ever. However, its rare that two teams will have a talent level which so outmatches everyone else. There are scholarship limits and teams recruit to need as well as talent, which means you can just take all the 5 stars. You have to pick and choose. Therefore, you WILL see 1 or 2 loss teams playing each other in the national championship. Going undefeated isn’t an easy feat, even when you have a ridiculous amount of talent. Also, in case you didn’t realize, John Chiles was a 5 star (Scout) and a 4 star (Rivals—the fifth was taken after he got injured).

Also, JaMarcus Russell has only played in 4 games. I doubt anyone knows if he was worth the money yet.

by nahmorlah on Jun 30, 2008 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs