54Brunch

by 54b on Jul 19, 2008 1:21 PM CDT in Quick Hits

No doubt PB's cerebral cortex finally blew a fuse after juggling the BON, the Preview Guide, Law School, and his latest exploitation, BON Groupies & eHarmony.com (apparently Web Masters are straight pimpin' now, who knew).

So I figured I'd chime in with a little Morning Coffee starter kit of my own...I call it "54Brunch." It's not quite breakfast, it's not quite lunch, but you get a piece of burnt orange cantaloupe. So pull up a chair, grab a danish, some crispy bacon, and a side of new potatoes, and enjoy another football-less Saturday, if you can...

Sticking with the Java theme, Longhorn baseball fans will be interested to know that Taylor Teagarden's having a cup of coffee with the Texas Rangers this weekend on the road up in Minnesota. He started at catcher last night filling in for an ailing Jarrod Saltalamacchia, going 0-3 with two SO's. Not exactly an historic start, but then again, it looks like all the Rangers' big bats left their offense at the All-Star game getting blanked 6-0 by the Twins.

If you want to watch him in action, Teagarden should start tonight and tomorrow before getting sent back down to the minors.

He was also named to the U.S. Olympic team this week, so he's got that going for him, which is nice.

[UPDATE]: Teagarden leads Rangers to 1-0 victory over the Twins with his first Major League homerun (and hit), a solo shot in the 6th off Scott Baker who was working on a perfect game up to that point.

And the big story from yesterday was the announcement that UT will in fact be retiring the numbers of several Longhorn greats including football legends Bobby Layne (22), Tommy Nobis (60), and the incomparable, Vince Young (10). For basketball, it'll be Kevin Durant (35) and a real blast from the past, Slater Martin (20), who led the 'Horns to their highest NCAA finish ever (3rd) in 1947. Baseball will retire four greats...Burt Hooton (20), Greg Swindell (21), Scott Bryant (23), and Brooks Kieschnick (25).

Normally, the retiring of numbers isn't that unexpected, but considering Texas has only retired four numbers total, from any sport, in its 100+ year existence - Earl Campbell (20), Ricky Williams (34), T.J. Ford (11), and Roger Clemens (also 21) - this is big news.

When asked, "why now," Deloss Dodds simply said that there was no real reason and it's simply something they've been kicking around for quite some time.

Personally, I think the pressure to retire VY's and Durant's numbers probably served as the real catalyst (more on that below) and they realized there'd be an outcry if they didn't pay homage to some of the other greats as well.

And unless UT is announcing stars from the womens sports separately, noticeably absent from this list is softball pitching great, Cat Osterman (who is also my unrequited sports crush...Cat, call me).

NOTE: If you've got some personal memories to share about any of the greats mentioned above, particularly the ones from way back, please share in the comments section below. I still remember Brooks Kieschnick basically willing the Longhorns to victory as both a power pitcher and power hitter. He was truly a man amongst boys.

Lastly a little commentary...there's a nice debate that's begun over in the comments section and while we've certainly covered the VY vs. Durant legacy debate before on the BON, I think it's worth revisiting given the latest developments.

BON'ers still seem to be somewhat divided over Kevin Durant's Longhorn legacy, especially when compared with VY's. There is no question Durant has the numbers and the hardware to make a case for retiring his number. Plus, he's just an outstanding individual off the court on top of it. But I can still imagine having this conversation in five years with someone not familiar with Texas basketball...

"Dude, did you see Durant go for 40 and 20 last night for the Sonics?"

"Yeah, he's unreal. Hard to believe he was once a Longhorn."

"No shit, he played for the 'Horns?"

"Oh yeah, he put up some sick numbers...one of the best years ever by a college basketball player."

"No doubt. So how far did you guys go in the Big Dance?"

"Not so good. Ousted in the second round."

"That's unlucky. But I'm sure Durant helped UT win the conference title..."

"Well, Texas had a chance, but Durant twisted his ankle in the Phog and we blew a big lead."

"What about the conference tourney?"

"Um, yeah, not so much there either. The Horns blew another big lead against KU in the title game. Durant had a shot to win it in regulation, but missed, and then disappeared in OT."

"But I'm sure there were some huge regular season wins where he just went off."

"Well, he did help UT beat the Aggies in Double-OT."

"The Aggies? Do they even have a basketball team?"

"Hard to believe, but yeah, they were pretty good that year."

"So what do you remember about Durant at UT?"

"Well he did win the Naismith and every other POY Award."

"Wow, your man Vince Young didn't even win the Heisman."

"No, but in my mind, VY won the trophies that mattered."

Burnt Orange People love their Longhorn heroes, but in the end, it's still the W that counts.

Agree, disagree, agree to disagree, coffee getting cold...let's read it from ya.

54b

Bonus: A little more food for thought...Dodds mentioned that the group that nominated the most recent players to have their numbers retired is also trying to come up with criteria to use for considering other players in the future. So what should the criteria be?

National POY Award Winner
Led the Longhorns to a National Championship
Represented the 'Horns on and off the field
Spent a minimum number of years at Texas or earned a diploma
Did exceedingly well in the professional ranks

When looking at the players whose numbers are being retired, I couldn't really identify one thing they all had in common other than they contributed significantly to their team's success.

Should there even be certain criteria in place or should a player's worthiness simply be decided on a case by case basis?

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Comments

more durant

Totally agree. Posted a comment to that effect yesterday, but let me add this: Retiring the number is a legacy thing. You can’t be a legacy if you’re on campus less than a year. Hey, some of us needed seven years to complete course work.

by edsp on Jul 19, 2008 2:56 PM CDT reply reply 0 recs

Thanks for the Brunch

I can’t get up early enough for the coffee.

by texasfan05 on Jul 19, 2008 3:38 PM CDT reply reply 0 recs

huh?

by MJY6087 on Jul 19, 2008 4:57 PM CDT reply reply 0 recs

if Bobby Layne has to wait this long to get his number retired

Durant can wait a little longer.

JMO

by Beergut on Jul 19, 2008 7:03 PM CDT reply reply 0 recs

just b/c the department messed up...

...by not retiring some older, deserving guys like Layne, doesn’t mean they should mess up again (imo)

by vy til i die on Jul 19, 2008 9:53 PM CDT up reply reply 0 recs

The Heisman

is overrated! #10 belongs to VY. I watched the 2005 championship game AGAIN last night on ESPN classsic. What a great team!

Durant deserves it. He’s getting his number retired for his athletic accomplishments, not his academics.

by Longhorns84 on Jul 20, 2008 12:41 AM CDT reply reply 0 recs

Cat

At UT the women’s Athletic Department is separate and Deloss said having been around only for 20 years, they did not really have the history to warrant retiring numbers.

by billb on Jul 20, 2008 1:46 PM CDT reply reply 0 recs

And it's not just Cat.

How about Clarissa Davis and Kami etheredge and a NC with a whop-ass final game?

What does the Women’s Athletic Department have to do with it? There is history already there and these decisions should be made on the history, not the administrative structure. I find that thought patronizing and a bit oblivious in this day and age.

by whills on Jul 20, 2008 4:13 PM CDT up reply reply 1 recs

Cat vs. Durant

I think womens athletics got screwed. No way you retire Durants # and leave Cats uniform # out there.
I also think that 1 year at school is not enough. I don’t care what you did.

"Nobody leaves this field until we beat the hell out of them".................... L.J."Louis"Jordan in 1913 before kickoff of the Texas/ou game.

by ouALWAYSsux on Jul 20, 2008 3:48 PM CDT reply reply 0 recs

Taylor Teagarden

He hit a homer today for a 1-0 Ranger win.

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.

by Caradoc on Jul 20, 2008 3:51 PM CDT reply reply 0 recs

Bad move

Using ‘National Player of the Year’ as the criterion for retiring a number makes it someone else’s decision, not ours. That’s just wrong.

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.

by Caradoc on Jul 20, 2008 4:02 PM CDT reply reply 1 recs

Imagined conversation about Durant

54b this is the exact imagined conversation I play for my friends everytime this topic comes up. However, I disagree on one point…I don’t think it’s a conversation with someone not familiar with Texas basketball. I think 5 years from now it could be 2 people one who follows Texas basketball with a good memory and one typical Texas basketball fan that can’t remember shit. Durant’s legacy will be easy to forget. Five years later I still remember TJ taking us to the Final Four in New Orleans. I remember him coming back to beat the Sooners on Senior Day. In four more years, I think I’m going to struggle to remember Durant’s great games and who we even played in the NCAA tourney that year.

I’m glad to see the girls getting some love with respect to having their numbers retired, too.

by TempestHorn on Jul 20, 2008 4:55 PM CDT reply reply 0 recs

With all due respect to what everybody has said

We are not showing any respect what-so-ever to Kevin Durant.

Who cares if he only stayed one year? If it wasn’t for the NBA using college basketball as a free minor league, then Durant would have gone straight to the pros and The University of Texas would, in all likelihood, not have had near as much exposure as they had while Durant was here, and our ticket sales and merchandise would have also been much lower than it was.

Durant and his freshmen class showed the nation that Texas was a place where 5 star basketball recruits come and make an impact on college basketball. Durant has helped Texas be the ONLY school who has had lottery picks in the last 3 years, and only the 3rd school in HISTORY who has had 3 straight since the lottery came into existence.

I think we owe him this at least.

Thanks Kevin.

by texasfan05 on Jul 20, 2008 7:40 PM CDT reply reply 2 recs

Everybdy

respects what Kevin Durant did for Texas. The school, the whole state, benefited from his skills. But 30 games, five months, worth of excellence doesn’t merit jersey retirement. Especially just a year after the fact.

by edsp on Jul 20, 2008 8:27 PM CDT up reply reply 0 recs

and if you don't think Durant...

..had ANY impact on UT, ask Tristan Thompson (#1 Prospect) why he chose us.

by vy til i die on Jul 20, 2008 8:41 PM CDT up reply reply 0 recs

exactly

by texasfan05 on Jul 20, 2008 9:30 PM CDT up reply reply 0 recs

And that is why I'm conflicted about retiring his jersey now

Granted, KD was one of the most dominant college basketball players of all time in his single season, but retiring his number so soon, when he is a poster child for “one and dones” gives off the faint whiff of a recruiting tool.

Considering the kind of prolongued greatness and/or championship caliber excellence we require out of the other sports in order to retire a number, it seems crass to retire KD’s number before what would have been his Junior year. Did anyone here honestly want to retire Colt McCoy’s number after his record breaking freshman campaign?

That’s not to say that he does not deserve the honor, but time would seem to lend a necessary perspective for us to make that decision. The fact that we did not take the same time to consider his retirement as others, like VY (whose career was much longer and achieved a greater ending), gives the impression that we want all the future one and done players to know that we’re willing to extend burnt orange immortality if their single season is good enough. I’m unsure how well that sits with me.

by learned hand on Jul 20, 2008 10:13 PM CDT up reply reply 1 recs

No one wants to retire a guy that wins Frosh OTY

If Colt had won the Heisman in his first year by some miracle, then gotten hurt and ended his career, I think we’d have to retire his jersey.

by Horn Brain on Jul 20, 2008 10:44 PM CDT up reply reply 1 recs

Fair point,

but I think that’s really more a flaw of example than the overall message, that we retired KD’s number in half the length of an average players college career. If Colt had won the Heisman and gotten hurt, we certainly wouldn’t retire his jersey a year later while he was an assistant on the sidelines.

Again, my unease is less with retiring his jersey than the apparent rational behind doing it now. To see that people are proclaiming that he deserved the honor because it will lure other “one and done” NBA minor leaguers to Texas makes me wonder what we’re honoring with a jersey retirement. Are we honoring the player, the player’s impact on the university’s sports legacy, the player’s impact on recruiting, or the player’s impact on the athletic budget’s bottom line?

Given the commercialization of college sports, the answer is probably yes to all of those questions, but to retire KD’s jersey now seems to imply that the retirement was about more than just his play and contributions on the court. That’s an illusion I’d rather have kept.

by learned hand on Jul 20, 2008 11:30 PM CDT up reply reply 1 recs

But again

I don’t think it is our fault that he was a one-and-done. And It’s not like we are retiring someone who “just” won one award. This guy did something no one has EVER DONE.

IMO if that helps us in recruiting then so be it, but we can stand by our word that he was so special of player that we could give him that and feel no guilt.

But anything less of what he accomplished, and I think it would have been too much to retire his jersey.

by texasfan05 on Jul 20, 2008 11:43 PM CDT up reply reply 0 recs

All good points

from Caradoc, HB, and ‘05, and again, I’m not saying that his jersey should not retired. I am confused about what criteria retires KD’s jersey about a year later, VY’s in 3, and Tommy Nobis’s jersey in 43 years. In view of how long other players have had to wait, were KD’s accomplishments that far above other horns? Perhaps they just felt the need to retire the numbers all at once, so he wouldn’t have to wait, but the timing just seems off to me. And yes, I do consider how long before the jersey is retired part of the honor.

No, it’s not our fault that KD was a one and done player. He did the smartest thing for his career, but that doesn’t mean that the University should be so quick to honor him. Retire his jersey, he blew away everyones concept of what a freshman player could accomplish, but at least wait a few years for perspective. If 54b’s hypothetical is correct in 5 years time, what does that say about Durant’s lasting impact on the University?

As to doing something no one else has ever done, Bobby Layne single handedly ensured that the Detroit Lions would be terrible for 50 years. If that doesn’t say don’t mess with Texas, I don’t know what would. Though I guess that’s more a pro football honor…

by learned hand on Jul 21, 2008 11:48 AM CDT up reply reply 1 recs

I'm with you there

There does not need to be a hurry to retire a jersey. I think MLB may have it right in this regard with a 5 year waiting period. And its also worthwhile to have a process for looking back at past greats.

What I find so revolting is the use of a ‘player of the year award’ to make the decision. Rather than letting reporters and PR flacks that have no connection to our programs make the decision, we ought to make it ourselves. We can discuss ways the decision might be made, but it should not be left to others.

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.

by Caradoc on Jul 21, 2008 1:22 PM CDT up reply reply 0 recs

re: Layne

Maybe that’s why the Lions keep drafting all the Longhorns. They are trying to reverse the curse with one of them..lol

by vy til i die on Jul 21, 2008 2:11 PM CDT up reply reply 0 recs

TJ Changed the Rules

TJ is already there and he left before his senior season, so there is clearly no requirement for the athlete to stay the full time. The only question is whether KD had an impact in his one year comparable to TJ in three, and on that I’d say yes. Like TJ, VY was here for three years, but he had little impact his freshman season, but again I’d have to say his impact was even greater.

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.

by Caradoc on Jul 21, 2008 10:55 AM CDT reply reply 0 recs

This is a better July bombshell than last year.

My observation is that if they were going to honor Slater Martin, because he elevated the
program in a similar manner in his time by going to the final four, they really couldn’t have done it without including KD. And vice versa.

At root, this may have been an old school/new school conflict and a compromise. Modern politics is just as much, if not more, about style, capturing attention and branding than substance. I suspect any mixed committee would have run into the same conflicts. Indeed, this may be why this has not be resolved for so long, regardless of KD.

So, what I see is a whole range of compromises pushed to round-up these individuals, but few hard and fast “rules” to guide them. Someone said “Do it, do it now” and they cut through the redtape.

I really think they waited way too long to honor some of these people (Layne, Nobis, Martin, the baseball players) and when the pressure to retire VY’s #10 and KD’s jersey struck, they just couldn’t do VY and/or KD without acknowledging the rest.

Like the old spittoon joke about swallowing the whole strand, they had to go all in to make everyone somewhat happy and were not going to be perfectly successful no matter who they chose. Most all of these players have been honored by the University in some matter but this was the next level and with that came to pressure to honor the past as well as the present (near present, anyway)

I wonder how much the Clemens affair bothered them. Now they’ll never have to take down the number, no embarrassing removal. What do they know? At the least, they know it won’t end well.

I think the concern here is justified and will serve as a prelude to a more formal process now that the ice has been broken in such a manner. I do like the minimum waiting period, five years at least.

And, basically not noticed in this discussion, is that a few weeks ago former Heisman winners were honored in Austin. I can’t help but feel that this had some relationship to this particular process, a critical piece of national pressure.

by whills on Jul 21, 2008 2:36 PM CDT up reply reply 0 recs

The rule was always about winning POY

That’s why Kevin Durant’s jersey being retired is more legit than anyone else they are doing this for. It’s not his fault they suddenly decided to lessen the rules to let other people “in the club” and that he’s now being compared to what those other people did. Earl, Ricky, TJ, all those guys had their jerseys retired by virtue of winning a POY award. It had nothing to do with how well their team(s) performed. Kevin Durant has accomplished exactly the same thing. The only thing that bothers me about it is that they’re aren’t retiring Cat Osterman’s at least at the same time as Kevin’s. She put in 4 years, won THREE player of the year awards, and is about to represent UT in her second Olympics. She deserves it probably more than any of them, including Vince.

by bassale47 on Jul 21, 2008 3:27 PM CDT reply reply 0 recs

I wouldn't say that they "lessened the rules to let other people 'in the club'".

Because it’s not accurate in all cases, and unfair in others. Starting with Slater Martin, who is the only Longhorn in the Basketball HOF, and who played ball at UT a few decades before the Naismith or Robertson awards came into being.

Tommy Nobis won the Maxwell and the Outland in the same year. But he’s like VY, a Maxwell and no Heisman. So if you’re going by Player of the Year awards, they’re both “lesser” retirements than Ricky and Earl. Perhaps a Davey O’Brien/Outland+a Maxwell=Full calorie Heisman Substitute. But you’re correct Bobby Layne didn’t win any awards. He just won football games and drinking contests though he’s been in the College Football HOF for 40 years.

Swindell won the “Collegiate Baseball Player of the Year award”, which isn’t much but he played before the Howser award was created, as did Hooten. Bryant and Kieschnick both won Howser awards, and they’ve had to wait a few decades for induction.

So of the inductions, two won “lesser” POY awards than their predecessors, three played before such awards were created in their respective sports, two won the POY of their sports, and one just won football games, by himself (Bobby Layne once accounted for all 40 points in a Texas win). The fact that these other gents had to wait decades for their university to honor them (except VY who is VY) after accomplishing amazing things in their own time (Nobis was the best LB and OL in the country?!), while KD got his jersey retired before he turned 20 the part that seems lacking in legitimacy.

I’m in total agreement on Cat Osterman, she earned a jersey retirement and a twenty foot statue in the middle of campus.

by learned hand on Jul 22, 2008 5:45 AM CDT up reply reply 3 recs

I didn't say they were lesser players

They all contributed to the legacy of UT athletics in their own special way. But the University did relax the rules to get most of them in. That’s not an opinion. It’s a statement of fact. You don’t have to agree with what the rules used to be. A lot of people don’t. But it is what it is. I don’t know why everyone is so surprised that KD’s jersey is being retired right now anyway. TJ Ford’s jersey was retired less than a year after he left, and it’s not like he was around for four years, or even three. This is the way it’s been done at Texas for decades, and for people to act like Kevin doesn’t deserve it or that he should have to wait 20 years or something is just wrong.

by bassale47 on Jul 22, 2008 7:41 AM CDT up reply reply 0 recs

Okay I have to take issue with this.

I did not insinuate that you said they were lesser players. I merely took issue with your statement that UT had to lower the bar to retire those players jerseys. This statement:

But the University did relax the rules to get most of them in. That’s not an opinion. It’s a statement of fact.

is incorrect. Principally, it is incorrect because four of the eight new players inducted did win some form of player of the year award, meaning “most” is no longer a valid term, but that’s just my inner editor being a jackass. We’ll put that aside and replace it with “many”. Secondarily, it is incorrect because such a rule never applied in baseball, and even if it did apply in basketball, an exception for a player who played before the creation of an award exists.

Three others played before a player of the year award existed in their respective sport. If a POY award is the only criteria to make one eligible for retiring the jersey, then we need to un-retire Roger Clemens number ASAP (for non personal reasons). He did not win a Player of the Year award, because he played before the Howser award or even the much less relevant Collegiate Baseball Player of the Year Award existed. The golden spikes award existed, for outstanding amateur player, but he didn’t win it-nor has any Longhorn. So 25% of previous retirements don’t fit the Player of the Year criteria. As an aside Clemens also had to wait 10 years for his jersey retirement.

Only Bobby Layne played at a time when a player of the year award was given in his sport, but did not win it. He also played during the end of WWII, before the advent of the Heisman campaign or color TV. So it was a bit different climate than it was even when Earl won. If you think thats grounds for keeping him out, that’s fine. But we have subjectively applied the objective criteria of player of the year awards, having allowed an exception for a player who played before the award existed, or who did not win an award currently existing (golden spikes). To do so again in the case of the baseball and basketball players is in accordance with precedent, and not an attempt to “lessen the rules to let other people ‘in the club’”.

Additionally, before one clings too closely to objective criteria, remember that the Heisman trophy was once the only football criteria, but like every other college obstacle, VY ran right past that one. And when judging by awards/heroism, you’d be hard pressed to find a measure that would allow VY to be honored but bar Nobis.

As for the retirement of TJ’s number coming so quickly, perhaps that was an error that should not have been repeated. He is undoubtedly deserving, but perhaps the award would have meant more if we hadn’t been so hasty. Especially since many of these men had to wait most of their lives to be honored. That’s a bit of a slap in the face, don’t you think? Now we have retired two jerseys of players after waiting less than a year’s time. Though they’re both deserving, perhaps we could at least have a requirement that they’re old enough to buy their own champagne for the ceremony?

by learned hand on Jul 22, 2008 10:33 AM CDT up reply reply 1 recs

I only say half because I omitted Durant from my part of the discussion. And also because I have trouble with addition, but 5/9ths should be the correct fraction for award winners when awards existed.

by learned hand on Jul 22, 2008 10:37 AM CDT up reply reply 0 recs

It should be a very unique honor

to have one’s number retired and, personally, I think VY is the only truly unique one in this bunch – a once in a generation or lifetime sort of player. No one could stop him. Not true for TJ or KD; extremely great players but not gods amongst mere mortals.

Brown Control to Major Applewhite...

by BFAUT86 on Jul 21, 2008 6:35 PM CDT reply reply 0 recs

But that's the problem

That’s someone’s opinion. It’s entirely subjective to say who is “a god amongst mere mortals” in college sports. A lot of people would say Kevin Durant fits the bill. A lot would say TJ Ford fits the bill. They didn’t win national championships, but Vince Young didn’t win the Heisman. So we’re back to square 1. That’s the reason the national POY rule was put in place to begin with – to have a cut-and-dried, black-or-white, yes-or-no determination of who gets the honor and who doesn’t. And frankly it’s something I was always proud of, as a Texas fan … that even with all our athletic glory through the years, only four athletes had ever received the honor of having their jersey retired. It’s not something we just gave away out of pressure from the fans or sentimentality. It was something with very specific criteria. And now it isn’t. I’m not suggesting at all that any of the players being honored aren’t worthy. I don’t think this is a decision that’s been made lightly at all, and I certainly have no qualms with any of the people they’ve decided to honor in this way. But I do take issue with the prevailing notion from our fans that Durant’s name shouldn’t have been included.

by bassale47 on Jul 22, 2008 7:53 AM CDT up reply reply 1 recs