Base Nickel Defense
Bumped from the diaries.
We heard (or saw) in the spring game that the Defense will be using a lot of nickel defense this year to the point where you could describe it as our "base" defense. Now, I expect our schemes to be different from the last few years in that we will deviate from our base defense and won't try to out-execute everyone no matter how badly mismatched our players are (see Derry/Killebrew in the slot against Tech).
That raises a few questions for me. Namely, who will be the personnel in the nickel package? Defensive depth charts with 3 starting linebackers simply may not apply to the majority of personnel groupings we see on the field this season. I'm hopeful that this will mean more Muckleroy/Kindle and less Bobino. The main question is what that 5 defensive back will look like in the 4-2-5. Will we use a 3rd cornerback or be more like Aggy's defense and use a SS/Rover type who can come up against the run?
In Spring Earl Thomas played the 5th man/Rover and is said to be more than adequate at laying out runners and keeping up in coverage. However, our own PB's depth (http://www.burntorangenation.com/2008/7/18/574127/depth-chartin-defense) features Earl Thomas as a starting Free Safety with Christian Scott as SS and 3 linebackers. With that in mind, I present a depth chart with the 4-2-5 as the base defense:
Power End: Henry Melton seems to be choice here with all the action he's seen in spring, the pre-season hype and the experience. Back-up: Aaron Lewis, Sam Acho
Nose Tackle: Roy Miller has apparently dropped down to 285 lbs. but he'll still be a nose in this scheme. Back-up: Ben Alexander.
Tackle: Lamarr Houston. I'm pretty excited about Houston here. Back-up: Alexander, Lewis, Humphrey?
Quick End: Brian Orakpo. Back-up: Eddie Jones. I'm sure will see Eddie at the other end spot some as well since the coaches will certainly want to get him some snaps.
Linebacker: Roddrick Muckleroy, the best run-stopper on the team and a playmaker. Back-up: Jared Norton, Keenan Robinson
Linebacker: Sergio Kindle, Muschamp's mentioned plans for Kindle including using him as an edge-rusher with his hands in the dirt and we all know his potential is the highest of the linebacker-corp. Throw in his physical strength as one of 2 linebackers to get attention from blockers and I think he starts over Bobino in the nickel. Back-up Rashad Bobino
Rover: Earl Thomas; In instances where we play a 4-3 defense I expect to see Thomas play one of the 2 safety spots since he's one of the better players back there right now but in nickel sets he can have the biggest impact here.
Cornerback: Deion Beasley: I'm hopeful Beasley will quickly become the shutdown corner of the team and do his best Nathan Vasher impression. Back-up Chykie Brown
Cornerback: Ryan Palmer: if he holds off the Browns that may be more of an indicator of their lack of readiness than Palmer's growth. I think he's more or less at his ceiling, which isn't terrible. Back-up Curtis Brown
Free Safety: Ben Wells; everything I've read says he's the real deal in coverage. I expect him to start opposite Thomas in the 4-3 and otherwise be in one of the 2 safety spots. back-up Aaron Williams
Strong Safety: This is really tricky. Plenty, including PB, are projecting Christian Scott as a starter. It's hard to imagine routinely running out 3 players back there who haven't played a college game yet, but Muschamp seems up to it. On the other hand Ishie Oduegwu is the only guy with experience here. I'll say Christian Scott with Ishie as back-up but it's less than clear. You could switch Wells or Scott/Oduegwu at either safety spot. Muschamp calls them "left and right" safety instead of Strong and Free so I'm not sure what each will call for more of. I anticipate Wells handling more coverage than the other.
So, such are my expectations for the defense Texas puts on the field in most circumstances next season. Thoughts? Counters?
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Good Projection
I think Kheeston Rhandall (sp?) will also see a lot of playing time at DT this year. Kindle will eventually be one of Muschamp’s favorites if he can stay healthy. If Texas puts the best players on the field, then Scott should play.
by Longhorns84 on Jul 25, 2008 11:33 AM CDT 0 recs
Russell Carter
looked good in the spring, so he should get some reps too at DE.
by Longhorns84 on Jul 25, 2008 11:36 AM CDT 0 recs
umm
wow once u put it like that.. this defense could be scary good.. but i still think that we will use the 4-3 defense a lot..
by Schwab on Jul 25, 2008 12:25 PM CDT 0 recs
base defense
I think Mack is still a 4-3 guy. He’ll give his new defensive boss freedom to do some (heretofore) exotic things (can’t wait) . . . . I’m an old schooler: I don’t believe formations and schemes are difference-makers, PLAYERS are. Still, it’d be nice to see a safety jump into a DE spot just before the snap and five rushers go after the QB. . . . Key to the ‘08 defense is pass rush; it’s been a failing for some time and now, with the secondary so young, QB pressure is a must. Either the pass rush gets better or the Longhorns need to get really good at returning kickoffs.
by edsp on
Jul 25, 2008 2:28 PM CDT
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Literature?
Just wondering, other than what was seen at the spring game, is there anything documented about this move to nickel as the base D? Not trying to be an ass, just wondering how sure we are that this is gonna happen. Great write up.
-Evan
Representing the Longhorn greatness in the cold Northeast.
by DKR-is-home on Jul 25, 2008 12:52 PM CDT 0 recs
Moniker?!
That’s twice now I put my name on the posts…need to quit flipping between work emails and BON posts or my boss is gonna wonder what the hell ‘nt whills’ means!
Representing the Longhorn greatness in the cold Northeast.
by DKR-is-home on
Jul 25, 2008 12:56 PM CDT
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That's really funny, you don't want to explain that to the boss.
It's a Horns' world. Even Aggies play hoops with a burnt orange ball.
Is it football season YET?
by Speedway on
Jul 25, 2008 1:20 PM CDT
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I see what your up to.
You better get your ass back to work or or fired!
by Evan's Boss on
Jul 27, 2008 12:43 PM CDT
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Melton hype?
I have not read much hyping Melton as the starter, but there seems to be a good number of commenters who believe he will. What am I missing?
by Wells on Jul 25, 2008 12:58 PM CDT 0 recs
The only thing I've seen
is that he apparently had a great spring, and got the pro scouts who stalk about all a-gah-gah about his potential. NFL Draft Scout (the service used by the NFL network) has him rated as the 56th’s prospect in the country. That may be because of what they think they would be able to do with him, not the play we’ll see.
Other than that, couldn’t tell you.
by learned hand on
Jul 25, 2008 1:26 PM CDT
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literature
Muschamp has been quoted on various occasions saying that in instances where the other team fields 3 receivers the defense needs to adjust and use a nickelback. In the Big 12, that’s essentially every play except short-yardage and against OU or A&M (OU uses 2 TE sets and A&M is going to use some 21 personnel with Lane as FB).
Over at Barking Carnival Scipio Tex claims we are using a base nickel defense. I don’t know if he knows something extra but it seems reasonable from Muschamp’s quotes and the primary personnel groupings in the spring game that will be in the 4-2-5 on the majority of snaps.
Melton has gotten a lot of buzz from his spring. He played pretty well last year as well, I remember him coming up right after a sack on Graham Harrell last year and slapping Harrell on the helmet while taunting him. Hopefully he cuts down on that sort of thing but he seems likely as a starter or guy who takes many snaps. He also has been used as a DE or DT in pass rush instances since 2006.
by RolloTamasi on Jul 25, 2008 1:52 PM CDT 0 recs
re: spring game
Remember that the use of the 4-2-5 in the spring was at least partly predicated on the absence of the injured Norton and Kindle on top of the loss of two senior LBers. The only LBers available in the spring were Bobino, Muckelroy, Earnest and incoming freshman Dravannti Johnson—just enough to field two starters for each team.
by edsp on
Jul 25, 2008 2:34 PM CDT
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Thanks
Exactly what I was wondering.
Representing the Longhorn greatness in the cold Northeast.
by DKR-is-home on
Jul 26, 2008 6:18 PM CDT
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Makes sense...
as the Big-12 moves more and more towards a spread offense, expect to see more nickel formations and/or faster linebackers.
by Skin Patrol on Jul 25, 2008 6:33 PM CDT 0 recs
4-3 and injured linebackers
I don’t think the 4-3 will be a very viable defense in the Big 12 on many downs. Particularly when our linebackers, though fast and talented, are not particularly great in pass coverage.
Our scheme the last two years (Cover-4) put our linebackers in terrible positions to make plays, as well as our secondary. We had Michael Griffin, Tarrel Brown (albeit injured) and Aaron Ross in 2006 and teams still threw all over us. It makes a big difference when you don’t line up in formations that are easy to exploit.
It may be that we had injured players in the spring game but Muschamp’s quotes and the reality of the predominance of the spread in the big 12 makes me believe that the 4-3 will not be the primary scheme.
You can have great players in the 4-3 and be very sound technically and still get burned by mismatches. Even the Indianopolis Colts, who run tons of base cover-2 used a nickel-base when they played the Pats last year.
by RolloTamasi on Jul 25, 2008 11:46 PM CDT 0 recs
Isn't Cover 4 a carry over from Chizik?
Basically it comes across as a prevent defense in form and seems to allow more open space underneath unless you have responsive and incredibly fast DBs and LBs. And for DBs who come from more traditional defensive formations, it would seem to make a longer learning curve and be less lenient with mistakes.
Seeing how Chizik came from Auburn in the first place, you would think Muschamp would have a great familiarity with the flaws of such a defense as well.
Does someone have a short evolution of its use at Texas (aside form actual prevent situations)?
I would think that would give some perspective on adaptation of our current DB crop. Adhering closer to their knowledge base might be a wiser (if not expedient) course with younger DBs.
by whills on
Jul 26, 2008 11:44 AM CDT
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nt
everyone should just stop using nt altogether. it is confusing and detracts from the post.
ut1ou2 for texas-ou weekend
by ut1ou2 on Jul 26, 2008 8:35 AM CDT 0 recs
How about using caps to start your sentences? -NT
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
by Caradoc on
Jul 26, 2008 12:16 PM CDT
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different nickel set up
I would look for palmer to be the first candidate in the nickel, with deon and a brown at corners. If one of the browns can’t hold up to the coverage, palmer would get moved back to corner, and earl thomas would be bumped to the nickel, while a safety like christian scott or ishie oduegwu would take over the safety position.
by JRA on Jul 26, 2008 10:53 AM CDT 0 recs
Nickel with Palmer, Cover-4
The problem with using Palmer as the nickel back on an every down basis is that it leaves us susceptible to the run. When you use a safety-type player as the nickelback you become better against the pass than with a linebacker but better against the run than with a 3rd corner. Using a Rover-type in the 4-2-5 can allow you to bring 8 in the box and have 2 of them be safeties. It just allows more flexibility.
Chizk brought in the cover-4 as our base coverage after the championship year as a response to our weakness against the run. It proved to be fairly effective at shutting down the run (except the option) and left us super-vulnerable to short passes and deep shots from play-action. In our Cover-4 our safeties would look to help against the run, leaving us vulnerable to play-action and trick-plays. Our linebackers were given large areas in the flats to cover which they were totally incapable of defending. We were better against the tricks and play-action in 07 but still super-susceptible to short passes. Teams could dink-and-dunk the ball down the field and collected big YAC totals as their athletes ran circles around Derry and Killebrew. Our DE’s were frequently near the top of the tackles totals as they played containment all the time to cover for our LBs and were thus unable to rush the quarterback. When we did rush the QB he had easy passes to make against our soft coverage. The only thing that the Cover-4 “prevent” defense prevented was punts.
What I’ve heard from Muschamp says we’re going to run more man-defense and some pattern-matching (matchup-zone). Using a 4-2-5 usually lends itself to Cover-1 also.
Mack said they wanted Muschamp because he knew how to disguise coverages so we’ll probably use some of everything.
by RolloTamasi on Jul 26, 2008 2:16 PM CDT 0 recs
Thanks for some answers.
The combo of wide-open areas tn the flats – where Jordy Nelson ran wild – and no serious rush via this:
Our DE’s were frequently near the top of the tackles totals as they played containment all the time to cover for our LBs and were thus unable to rush the quarterback. When we did rush the QB he had easy passes to make against our soft coverage.
Thus, our rush was the DTs and Bobino’s bull rushes to nowhere up the middle, and the occasional outside blitz that did little good. So, the Horns’ rush was seldom effective unless the QB just held the ball too long.
In 2005 the Horns may have had some of the pieces in place to run this but not all of 2006, not after the injuries to the DBs which happened in the second half of the season. The DBs played but they were all slowed down to some degree (broken toe, high ankle sprains for Griffins, etc.).
This Cover 4 seems like a pro defense that falls off the board when you don’t have enough speed or experience or discipline. And generally few teams in the pros rarely run the option. Suddenly it makes sense of why the Horns are vulnerable to the aggies and other option teams in general.
And this rang a bell about Kelson, who would have made the perfect rover in the 4-2-5. Too late the hero with a position of his own.
by whills on
Jul 26, 2008 6:02 PM CDT
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thoughts
Chizk brought in the cover-4 as our base coverage after the championship year as a response to our weakness against the run.
I don’t think you go to a Cover 4/quarters scheme to shut down the run. Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t you lose Huff to the draft after the ‘05 season? The Cover 4 scheme seems more predicated on stopping the deep passing game, keeping the defense from giving up the big play. This would make sense if you are trying to break in some inexperienced defensive backs.
It proved to be fairly effective at shutting down the run (except the option) and left us super-vulnerable to short passes and deep shots from play-action. In our Cover-4 our safeties would look to help against the run, leaving us vulnerable to play-action and trick-plays.
In Cover 4, you’re okay with giving up short passes; you just don’t want to give up the big play. Biting on play-action isn’t a result of scheme, it is a result of defensive players not being disciplined, and opponents taking advantage of their over-aggressive nature. You weren’t vulnerable to play-action and trick plays b/c of a Cover 4 scheme, you were vulnerable b/c your defensive staff encouraged your players to attack. Well, attacking can come at a cost sometimes.
by Beergut on Jul 26, 2008 3:25 PM CDT 0 recs
Cover-4
I don’t think you go to a Cover 4/quarters scheme to shut down the run. Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t you lose Huff to the draft after the ‘05 season? The Cover 4 scheme seems more predicated on stopping the deep passing game, keeping the defense from giving up the big play. This would make sense if you are trying to break in some inexperienced defensive backs.
We implemented the Cover-4 when we still had Aaron Ross, Tarrel Brown and Michael Griffin in the secondary, all of whom are in the NFL. The Cover-4 can be very useful against the run in that your safeties can read the line and attack if they read run while otherwise tending to their deep responsibilities.
In Cover 4, you’re okay with giving up short passes; you just don’t want to give up the big play. Biting on play-action isn’t a result of scheme, it is a result of defensive players not being disciplined, and opponents taking advantage of their over-aggressive nature. You weren’t vulnerable to play-action and trick plays b/c of a Cover 4 scheme, you were vulnerable b/c your defensive staff encouraged your players to attack.
Sure, but this super-aggressive mindset was intended to be mixed with the Cover-4 scheme. As we did. If defending the deep-pass was our concern after the Rose Bowl (and it wasn’t, our pass D was terrific) we wouldn’t have dropped the Cover-2 defense we were using which was perfectly adequate for that purpose. The intention of the Cover-4 for our staff was to have protection against deep passes while freeing up the safeties to be aggressive against the run. Obviously it was highly ineffective due to poor linebacker play, which happened to be the reason we needed the aggressive Cover-4 in the first place.
by RolloTamasi on
Jul 26, 2008 7:25 PM CDT
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ok
We implemented the Cover-4 when we still had Aaron Ross, Tarrel Brown and Michael Griffin in the secondary, all of whom are in the NFL.
IIRC, y’all had injuries to several of those players, which necessitated younger, less-experienced players playing. Didn’t Brown have to sit out a game b/c of an arrest?
Despite all that NFL talent, I recall your ‘06 pass defense being fairly pedestrian. The Ohio State game was a precursor of problems to come.
Looking at the ‘06 stats, you gave up 236 yds per game passing, which is pretty bad when you remember that the new clock rules basically cut 14 plays out of every game, and depressed offensive stats. (As a comparison, A&M was giving up 190.5 yds per game passing, and we didn’t have a good pass defense, as we showed against California.)
If you want to get to the theoretical level, and say that you averaged 7.5 yds given up per pass play in ‘06, and add in half of those 14 plays cut out by the clock rules, you would end up with a secondary giving up over 280 yds per game, which means there really is no difference between the secondary you fielded in ‘06 or ‘07, when it comes to stopping the pass.
Granted, that is a hypothetical stretch, but it shows that the problems in ‘07 were foreshadowed.
Obviously it was highly ineffective due to poor linebacker play, which happened to be the reason we needed the aggressive Cover-4 in the first place.
Wait, let me see if I understand this: Your attempt to use the safeties to stop the running game was ineffective b/c of poor linebacker play, but poor linebacker play was why you were using the safeties to stop the run. Huh?
I would think either the safeties can stop the run or they can’t, linebacker play wouldn’t have anything to do with it.
by Beergut on
Jul 27, 2008 9:36 PM CDT
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Thoughts on Base Nickel
You can use a package to cover up flaws at LB, but dont expect to always get a great pass rush, this is very much a “read and react” type defense.
Also, while this defense will work well in the pass happy B12 dont expect it to work as well against running teams: see OU, A&M.
by K2HMFIC on Jul 27, 2008 11:01 AM CDT 0 recs
Thoughts, questions and stuff gleaned from other websites, etc.
Not sure how accurate any of it is, but in relation to the depth chart thought I’d throw it out:
-Regarding DT, Randall reported in better shape than Humphrey and is ahead of him for playing time right now. Also, Ben Alexander has dropped 20+ pounds. Wilcoxin will be a contributor this year.
-Regarding safety – Scott is the one more often mentioned as being a S/LB hybrid. Wells and Thomas are better in coverage. Thomas appears to be ahead of both Wells and Scott. Don’t discount Gideon at the S/LB role as well.
Also, I understand the point of playing the most athletic LB’s, most upside, etc. But in the depth chart both starters are typical OLB’s. Am I way off in thinking you’d want at least one true MLB (Norton or Bobino) on the field at all times?
Is Roy Miller being down to 285 a good thing?
by Horncasting on Jul 27, 2008 1:25 PM CDT 0 recs
rollo
welcome, and well played on the la confidential reference.
by jc25 on Jul 27, 2008 2:56 PM CDT 0 recs
ok rebuttal
IIRC, y’all had injuries to several of those players, which necessitated younger, less-experienced players playing. Didn’t Brown have to sit out a game b/c of an arrest?
Despite all that NFL talent, I recall your ‘06 pass defense being fairly pedestrian. The Ohio State game was a precursor of problems to come.Looking at the ‘06 stats, you gave up 236 yds per game passing, which is pretty bad when you remember that the new clock rules basically cut 14 plays out of every game, and depressed offensive stats. (As a comparison, A&M was giving up 190.5 yds per game passing, and we didn’t have a good pass defense, as we showed against California.)
If you want to get to the theoretical level, and say that you averaged 7.5 yds given up per pass play in ‘06, and add in half of those 14 plays cut out by the clock rules, you would end up with a secondary giving up over 280 yds per game, which means there really is no difference between the secondary you fielded in ‘06 or ‘07, when it comes to stopping the pass.
Granted, that is a hypothetical stretch, but it shows that the problems in ‘07 were foreshadowed.
Yes, our pass defense was atrocious in 2006. What’s your point? The aggressive Cover-4 we implemented in 2006 was a horrible scheme in both 06 and 07 even though 06 had much more talented players in the secondary. I would expect a nickel-base defense to be better against the pass. I’m presuming you would agree.
Wait, let me see if I understand this: Your attempt to use the safeties to stop the running game was ineffective b/c of poor linebacker play, but poor linebacker play was why you were using the safeties to stop the run. Huh?
I would think either the safeties can stop the run or they can’t, linebacker play wouldn’t have anything to do with it.
Using safeties to stop the running game was ineffective at preventing the other team from scoring. We’ve had great numbers against the run the last 2 seasons using the aggressive Cover-4, but have allowed tons of points by being porous against the pass.
You can use a package to cover up flaws at LB, but dont expect to always get a great pass rush, this is very much a "read and react" type defense.
Why does it have to be “read and react”? If you have 5 defensive backs you can play man-to-man and blitz more. Or you can stunt and bring pressure from crazy angles. The defensive line can, and will, attack upfield very quickly with thick coverage behind them.
Good call on the middle linebacker, I’m not sure how we would adjust with that other than using Norton or Bobino. However, Muckleroy can technically play all 3 LB positions. Roy Miller being down to 285 is plenty good. He’s not getting plowed or moved easily by anyone at that weight and he can attack the backfield with more explosiveness. The days of 300+ Defensive tackles are gone.
by RolloTamasi on Jul 27, 2008 11:38 PM CDT 0 recs














