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Chris Jesse and instant replay abuse

I have wondered this since that unfateful play.  Did the refs usurp some power here??? I don't care if there was sufficient evidence to make the call, did the refs use the replay incorrectly???

 

There was no unsportsmanlike penalty called (the flag was thrown for suspected intentional grounding), then it was called during the replay.  I though that the Referees could not use instant replay to make calls. Did anyone else notice this, question this??? Anyone have an explanation? I have tried to bring this up in several forums, but alas.   I would appreciate some declaritive relief.

 

 

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He didn't touch it,

but he shouldn’t have been on the field. Texas beat the sh*t out of them anyway!

by Longhorns84 on Jul 26, 2008 11:43 PM CDT   0 recs

I was still mad at him,

but there wasn’t anything close to indisputable video evidence that he touched it. I was very angry that the refs made that call, and I wish people said more about it. I was actually suspicious that they wanted to make the game more competitive, because if that didn’t happen, it’s likely turning into 28-0 and we’re running away before anyone at ASU knew what’s happening.

But I’m willing to let it go since we dominated them anyway.

by TheElusiveShadow on Jul 27, 2008 12:56 AM CDT   0 recs

the refs failed to give me confidence...

that they themselves understood their call… I still don’t understand it…

An “unsportsmanlike act” was called in the course of the play. Okay, I can live with that; I still don’t think it was anywhere close to “indisputable” video evidence that he touched the ball, but I’m willing to bend on that since he (and dozens of others…) really shouldn’t have been out on the field during a live play anyway.

But… they then mark off the penalty NOT from the spot, but from the original line of scrimmage. Why then, would the play have counted??? They marked it off half the distance to the goal, but then left it at 4th down. It seems to me, and here I’m more than willing to defer to anyone who really understands the rule, that it should have been a first and goal or a repeat of the play and 3rd and short. Either that or 4th and a looooooong way. Or even a no-call… The only thing that would seem completely wrong is a 4th and short, which was the one they picked out of their hats.

Anyway, I’d still appreciate hearing from someone whether the call was correct in any fashion. I’m like everybody else… just glad it didn’t matter in the end, but curious.

by Pflash on Jul 27, 2008 11:23 AM CDT   0 recs

There was no unsportsmanlike penalty until after the replay

If you watch the link from the post, the original call was intentional grounding. My question is about calling a penalty from a replay vice real time.
All,
The fringe arguments are inconsequential. Just because we beat them does not make the point moot.

by Longhorny on Jul 27, 2008 1:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I am not positive

But I am pretty sure that a personal foul call can be made at any time.

by Wells on Jul 27, 2008 1:44 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Good Point....

I looked it up. Although this is from 2005, I am assuming that it is still valid. Personal fouls penalties are specifically mentioned as not an item for which replay may be used to detect.

So I guess my new question is: did the Zebras get away with it? I was screaming at the TV on this point, trying to figure out why the announcers did not pick it up.

by Longhorny on Jul 27, 2008 4:04 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Is this any satisfaction:

The refs got the play on the field right the first time because they saw the play clearly and didn’t whistle the ball dead either due to Jessie or Loki. Instant Replay stole their conclusion on the field and thus their power.

First, the judgment on the field about the dead ball meant that the refs had to whistle it dead at that spot:

Rule 2-25, Article 4: Dead Ball Spot: The dead ball spot is the point at which the ball became dead.

The ball would have been ruled dead at the spot at which it was allegedly touched, about the 35.

Nor did the the official blow his whistle to call the ball dead under

Rule 4-1, Ball in Play, Dead Ball or Out of Bounds, Article 3, subsection K:
When a live ball not in player possession touches anything inbounds other than a player, a player’s equiment, an official, an official’s equipment or the ground (inadvertent-whistle provisions apply).

So, the referee’s judgment on the field (and esp. the Head Lineman’s) was that the ball had not been touched, for they let the play proceed to completion without any whistles, nor throwing of bags or hats to mark a spot (except for the intentional grounding flag they picked up). The play was live until Texas recovered the ball and the (new) offensive runner was tackled.

There was no basis for any Instant Replay. There was no field judgment to overturn.

Indeed, in the time before Instant Replay, this would have been Texas ball period. End of story.

The only dissent to this would be the placement of the ball, if it perhaps had gone out of bounds before Loki batted it in-bounds around the 40 (and a damn good play lost in this conundrum). But again, the judgment on the field was that it was a fair ball.

Well, going to the film, the head ref is parallel to the play less than 9 yards away, the Linesman is just behind the play (maybe 8 yards and closing and right there as Jessie reached out, and clearly seeing what Jessie did and then the Loki bat of the ball) and behind the Linesman is another ref following up. In the close-up of Jessie you can see the linesman’s back on the left. Definitive. Notice the refs ruled the ball at the ASU 43 and were ready to put it into play. Two, if not three, referees had a clear and unobstructed vision of the whole play.

So, in light of your question of whether the ref’s usurped power, did someone else usurp power?

There is a
225-page PDF of NCAA 2007 rules if you want to dig out more.

If they ruled a dead ball, the ball should have been spotted at the about Tx35 and the penalty walked off from there. The secondary question is if this personal foul was an automatic first down. So, the next play in this variation would have be either 4th down from the 20 or 1st down at the 20. There was no reason to go to the original spot, this was not an inadvertent whistle. The offensive team clearly lost yardage as the live ball went backwards.

I suspect that the refs surrendered their judgment and after doing that went brain dead and didn’t have any idea of what to do. They could have called a penalty for the team members being on the field but there is no penalty yardage for that (corrected for this year btw) and chances are the other team was on the field, too, because it is the most common transgression in football.

Personally, imho it was Rudy’s fault for massive stupidity on the football field, but then he got his.

Loki didn’t get credit for a heads-up play and #38 (Muck) didn’t get a fumble recovery.

Wells is correct about personal fouls. I’ve seen refs drop a flag at halftime because the festivities ran too long. Or even the infamous Sooner Schooer incident. And there is no limit. The famous incident about this is from HS, where a coach protested too much and his team went from being on the opponent’s 5 to their own 5, 90 yards worth.

The real question is who drops the flag on the refs if they are wrong?

by whills on Jul 27, 2008 4:15 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Correct...Sort of...

Illegal participation is a reviewable play, and the Zebra’s may assign any penalty they deem appropriate, including adding a score. Rule 9.2.3

Neither Wells nor Whills is correct. Personal fouls are not reviewable. Rules 12.4.2 and 12.4.3.

So the only question now is, was that fair???

by Longhorny on Jul 27, 2008 5:59 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Neither Wells nor I said PFs were reviewable.

And in this case, they weren’t reviewed. No calls were reviewed. A non-call was inserted.

Illegal participation may indeed be reviewed, but the point I was making is that with eyes on the play, the call should have been made at the time of the play…and wasn’t. That was the real weirdness of this and apparently where the upstairs crew inserted themselves. Perhaps they questioned the fairness of Texas sidelines on the field and then scrambled for a remedy that was somewhat scrambled and unfair itself. The action the upstairs crew imposed essentially wiped out the play and blurred the real responsibility.

And as for your lost modifiers, descriptors and prepositions, check your grundels. Out of sight, out of mind.

by whills on Jul 27, 2008 10:15 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yet another...

....example of why organizations should always have rules against nepotism.

What a perfect scene for a SouthWest Airlines commercial. “Wanna get away?”

We had already received a sideline warning. Jesse’s immediate boss, Cleve Bryant, was easily 4 yards, if not 5, out on the playing field. So, you can hardly fault the officiating crew for wanting to make a statement. My understanding is that illegal interference, an unsportsmanlike foul, does not require a touching of the ball. That point is moot.

--- All roads to the Big-XII Championship lead through OU/RRS. It's not just another game! We're all about championships here. ---

by HornChamps on Jul 27, 2008 1:10 PM CDT   0 recs

Just being on the field isn't illegal interference per se.

It can be construed as that. But if you go that far, you must ask if the interference was intentional or unintentional.

Intentional is like Dicky Maegle’s apparent 95-yard run cut short by Alabama’s Tommy Lewis who jumped from the sidelines on Jan. 1, 1954 in the Cotton Bowl. Rice was awarded a TD by the referees.


“I kept telling myself, ‘I didn’t do it. I didn’t do it.’ But I knew I had.”
Tommy Lewis, 1954

Clearly, neither Jessie nor the Texas coaches on the field was intentional in this respect. However, if Jessie had directly touched the ball they could have clearly rule that as intentional interference – but, as I note about, the Head Linesman was within a few yards and clearly saw the play, as did the Head Referee some 8-9 yards parallel to it, and neither of them threw a flag or blew their whistles. You go back to the basic evidence.

I think the refs became embarrassed and backed off their own eyes and judgment and felt they had to do something, even if it was wrong.

by whills on Jul 27, 2008 4:37 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

the way it turned out

im happy that they called it in ASU favor otherwise we would have to be hearing about “how they could have won the game had the momentum switched.”

I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me.
~Fred Allen

by Hook'em13 on Jul 27, 2008 5:33 PM CDT   0 recs

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