Pre-Season Polls Hate America
Conversations about football polls, especially preseason polls, are cans of worms. HornBrain opened up such a can of worms the past few days, and I must say that I'm not very good at walking away from cans of worms. Instead, I like to go fishing with them. To that end, I'd like to talk briefly about why preseason polls are an inevitbaly logically inconsistent scourge that is not only useless in theory, but in practice is also playing a part in ruining college football. And America!*
What's that? You want me to tell you how I really feel? Fair enough. Will do. But first we have to briefly look at the different logical methods by which people rank teams.
Resume Ranking vs. Power Ranking vs. Projection Ranking
I've talked about this endlessly before in different contexts, but most thoroughly in Part 1 of my Flex Playoff proposal from a year and a half ago (my how time flies). To quote myself in explaining the two:
Resume Rankers: believe that the notion of "best" is based on what you have done or not done so far in relation to what everyone else has done or not done so far. This can cause some weird-looking rankings at the beginning of the season, but logical ones towards the end. Power Pollsters: believe that the notion of "best" is a subjective analysis based both on what teams have done and the pollster's own opinions on how good each team is according to what cannot be captured in the win-loss column and the margin of victory totals. These diverging methods of ranking teams lead to different ways of determining who is the "best" team, and thus different ways of determining which system is the most ideal for crowning this "best" team the national champion.
The resume ranker looks at the results of the regular season and determines who the best teams are based on those results. The regular season results don't just play heavily into the rankings; they ARE the rankings.
The power pollster of course pays attention to the regular season results, but then adds in his own subjective analysis of who he THINKS is best.
I didn't mention the "Projection Ranking" theory in that article because that column had to do with end-of-year rankings and projection rankings don't apply to end-of year rankings. Essentially, this theory of ranking teams states that you look at how good a team is (either based on resume or "power") and also look at their upcoming schedule to determine how you think those teams will end up ranked at the end of the season. This is most prevalent early in the season, and for obvious reasons is non-existent at the end of the season: it's either a power ranking or a resume ranking at the end because there are no actual games remaining of which to project the results.
Which is Better Generally?
My personal belief (and I believe the dominant majority belief, at least in theory) is that resume ranking is the preferred method. Resume ranking is not entirely objective (nothing ever can be given the nature of human beings), but it strives for ranking based on hard data: the results of actual games that have actually been played. Based on what has happened so far, who has had the best season?
Power Rankings take into account the results so far, but instead of leaving it at that, take that information and layer on top of it a level of complete subjectivity in determining which team is "better" than which other team - which presumably means which team would beat which other team in an imaginary game played completely within the head of each individual power pollster. Thus, while two different resume rankers may rank teams differently, at least they are using the same reality-based information as the basis of their rankings. Power pollsters base their rankings in part on completely different information as each other because such information is all imaginary. And in the end, they don't care who had the best season. The best season is irrelevant to them. The only thing that matters is who would beat who if they played tomorrow.
Projection Ranking is, to my mind, a worse folly than power ranking because it takes the problem inherent in power ranking and doubles down. Not only is a projection ranker trying to predict what will happen on the field in a series of games that have not been played, but he further attempts to predict how the pollsters as a whole will react to the imaginary results of that as-yet unplayed game. If you're counting at home, that's two levels of utter speculation on the future: one more than power ranking and two more than resume ranking.
Click through to read why pre-season polls are destroying America.
Why Preseason (and Early-Season) Rankings are Useless in Theory
Obviously, one cannot resume rank teams in the preseason. And it's a pretty useless endeavor for the first few weeks of the season because there are hardly any results to go off of. If you attempt to resume rank for the first few weeks of the year but keep your rankings looking like something approaching normal, you have to allow for some cognitive dissonance as you let some power polling seep into your rankings.
And the very fact that you have no results makes it virtually impossible to make an accurate power poll as well. I think power polls are fundamentally flawed for the reasons outlined above and elsewhere, but there are better methods than others, and a good power pollster will create a ranking based on the extrapolation of results so far into a list of who would beat whom if they played tomorrow. A bad power pollster will base his determination of "who would beat whom" on conjecture, personal beliefs, a team's propensity in previous years to choke (or shine) in big games, etc. The problem with pre-season power poll rankings is that they are by definition the "bad" kind. You rely exclusively on how the team did last year, which players were lost, how a newspaper reporter says that a player looks in spring practice, etc. You do this because you have nothing else to rely on. Nothing has happened!
So essentially, pre-season rankings turn resume rankers into power pollsters, and turn good power pollsters into bad ones. Sounds like a recipe for disaster before we even get to the fact that some pre-season pollsters like to look at the upcoming schedule of each team to figure out how they will end the season and where they will be ranked as a result. They are doing this without any data on either the team they're trying to rank or the 12 other teams that team will play in the future. As the season goes along, at the very least a projection ranker's method is based in part on actual results. What kills me is that the people who do this projection ranking often claim they are looking at the schedules to provide some sort of "context" or "reality" to their power rankings that were necessitated by the fact that resume rankings are impossible.
To recap the effect pre-season polls have on resume-rankers:
Resume Ranker --> good Power Pollster --> bad Power Pollster --> Projection Ranker
All preseason ranking does is systematically increase both the level of speculation and the influence of one's imagination on the ranking system, even by those people like me who are staunch resume rankers. There's nothing otherwise that we can do.
Why Preseason Rankings are Bad for College Football
For one thing, forcing things like power ranking and projection ranking on everyone (including on those who would prefer to rank based on resume) implicitly endorses and reinforces the legitimacy and preferability of those two methods, which I obviously think is counterproductive. This matters because the two teams that make the college football BCS playoff are chosen based on their rankings. I firmly believe that the two teams chosen for such a playoff (or occasioanlly more than two, if my Flex Playoff proposal ever takes hold...which of course it won't) should be chosen based on who has had the best season on the whole. Not "who would beat whom according to the imaginary game pollsters just played in their heads." The more legitimacy Power Polling has early in the season, the more likely that legitimacy is going to seep into late-season polls and the more likely pollsters' imaginations are going to play a part in determining who plays in the national championship game.
Second, pollsters are subject to a severe case of inertia. Wherever a team is ranked in the beginning of the year, it's going to stay pretty much right there until it loses. So when OU and USC started the season 1-2 and Auburn started at 19 or something and all 3 went undefeated, Auburn had no chance of overtaking USC and OU because the latter two had been entrenched as 1-2 since before the season even started. This happens even with people who claim to be resume ranking (and for the record, if someone is prone to inertia, they are not purely resume ranking, despite claims to the contrary; liars!).
This is a problem that isn't going to be completely fixed by eliminating pre-season rankings, but if you wait until mid-season or, say, after the end of non-conference play to begin ranking teams, then at least the spots in the poll in which certain teams will be entrenched are based on something only than complete conjecture and imagination. And beyond that, it will encourage teams to schedule better non-conference games. As it is, certain teams are almost always ranked highly in the pre-season because they have lots of talent. There is no incentive for those teams to schedule tough non-conference games because as long as they win all of their non-conference games, they will remain in the same spot in the polls. But if those rankings don't begin until after the non-conference games are played, the rankings will be based on the results thus far. And an undefeated team with a win over a good team should be (and will be, under a resume-ranking method) ranked higher than an undefeated team with wins over nothing but patsies. Essentially, the leaping off point is based at least somewhat in reality. And that has to be an improvement.
Conclusion

So this is quite like college football.
I'm not saying that there's no point in discussing who you think the better team is in the pre-season or during the first few weeks of the year. That's the fun of all of this and talking about it ad nauseum is one of the reasons we're all here. I'm very happy to have that discussion. But when that fun gets institutionalized and rankings done by certain people actually affect how the season plays out, we have to be careful to think about how and why we are ranking these teams. It's an extremely simplified Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle**: there is no absolute value that can be given to rank these teams because there is no such thing as definite position, and because the very act of measuring these teams affects their position within the rankings, we must be careful to measure them in the most accurate and least disturbing manner possible. Because power ranking and projection ranking are based on things other than facts, the method of measurement that disturbs the position of these teams the least is the one that is the most objectively based on facts -- resume ranking. And there is no possible way to be any more objective in ranking teams than by doing it based only on what has actually occurred, something the preseason poll doesn't allow you to do.
*Only true if you believe college football is the majority component in the fabric of the American way of life. As I do.
**Apologies to any quantum physicists for totally simplifying and/or somewhat misconstruing the uncertainty principle.
3 recs |
20 comments
Comments
Football and Physics
I get both from one world. Billyzane, who knew that I could learn so much from a football article. This site is amazing.
This is honestly one of the most thought out and best posts I’ve ever read. I commend you, Billyzane.
by texasfan05 on Aug 13, 2008 4:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
This somewhat misses the point
The point of the polls is not for everyone to use the same method to come up with a ranking—that would create bias. Instead, the point is to determine rankings based on the overarching sentiment of knowledgable football analysts who each have various biases and methods of coming up with their list. With the amount of people that participate in the polls, compounded with the computer element of the BCS, the theory is that everything will wash itself out.
John Chiles - I'm your foster daddy!
by BMG on Aug 13, 2008 5:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't think that's true
so basically what you’re proposing is that we just pick a group of people and say, “do whatever the hell you want and we’ll average the scores.” that doesn’t create a consensus about anything. averages don’t equal consensus if there’s no agreement on the factual basis for the individual rankings that are being averaged. if one person is ranking based on their favorite mascots and another based on alphabetical order, and 100 other people are basing their rankings on 100 different things, then the average of their rankings doesn’t mean anything.
those are extreme examples, obviously, but the point stands. i’m not saying that all pollsters have to come to the same conclusion or that they have to assign the same value to every underlying fact. i’m just saying that they should be basing their decisions (whatever they may be) on the same set of facts rather than their imaginations, which are necessarily disparate.
by billyzane on Aug 13, 2008 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
knowledge is the key
Remember that the people chosen to vote in polls are typically knowledgeable and care about football. This doesn’t mean they all vote using a method we agree with, but assuming that the one that don’t are few in number then it really isn’t an issue.
I’m just playing devil’s advocate here, personally i’d rather we have something else.
John Chiles - I'm your foster daddy!
by BMG on Aug 14, 2008 7:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re:
Remember that the people chosen to vote in polls are typically knowledgeable and care about football.
No one doubts that the voters are knowledgeable and interested in the sport, we’re questioning their methodology or, more precisely, the strength of having a bunch of people, knowledgeable and interested as they may be, making important decisions without any clearly articulated understanding of what it is they are trying to determine.
This doesn’t mean they all vote using a method we agree with, but assuming that the one that don’t are few in number then it really isn’t an issue.
I disagree. If there are a few voters utilizing methodologies I find fundamentally illogical it calls the entire process into question. Currently we don’t know what methodology these people use for making those decisions because it’s secret. For now all we can do is argue with the results which are, sometimes, totally bogus. And I think the position of many fans is that if it is garbage out it must have been garbage in.
by Skin Patrol on Aug 14, 2008 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The voters
Stewart Mandel made a great point (I believe in his book, but I could be wrong) that your typical poll voter (at least in the AP and Coaches Polls) don’t even have a chance to see all the games. Mandel, for example, spends his Fridays prepping/traveling for his Saturday assignment, which is generally one of the more premier match-ups in the league (never mind if there are a bunch of other marquee games on that weekend). So he basically spends his entire day prepping, watching, and writing an article, which has to be submitted by god knows when in the morning. And then he travels back on Sunday. So basically, his knowledge of other games consists of sneaking in time to watch when he can, or catching the highlights on SportsCenter. Hence, the Pac-10 bias (you’re too busy writing your article or catching up on other games). This makes it extremely difficult for someone like Mandel, who gets to watch one full game a week before having to fill out his ballot (also due at god knows when in the morning).
The same line of reasoning extends to beat writers covering a team (say Texas) or a region (say the Big XII). They’ve got extensive knowledge on their subject matter, but their line of work precludes them from being thoroughly knowledgeable about other teams. Even more pronounced is the effect this has on coaches. Name one coach who takes more than 10 minutes to fill out his ballot (if he even does it at all), and I’ll show you a coach who’s not “taking his job seriously.” I mean, those are minutes you can use to gameplan against Coach Fran next week (here’s a hint, Mack…he’s probably going to use some trick plays).
This even extends to the venerable “Blog Poll.” Obviously, PB’s spending 4 hours of his Saturday intimately viewing Texas football. Plus, he’s jotting notes and creating a write-up for our wonderful BON. He’s also possibly entertaining guests, phone calls, schoolwork, "extracirriculars, alcohols, females, you name it. And yet he’ll have time to not only watch Texas, but perhaps one or two other games in their entirety, plus the SportsCenter wrap-up. But will he ever watch BYU play this season? Possibly yes, but probably not.
Thus, my conclusion is that even a straight resume rank will be flawed. Writer A, a national writer, covers the OSU game and extensive clips of USC. Writer B, a Texas writer, gets an extensive look at a Texas win and also catches the highlights of OU. Writer C, who’s team is off this week, decides to peek in on some WAC action with Boise State. All of those teams dominate (and for the sake of argument, all beat relatively good teams). Each writers “resume rank,” in turn, will be biased towards the “domination” they just saw. And this problem doesn’t just lend itself to one week. Over the course of the season, writer A sees the big dogs play every week. Writer B has a great look at Texas and a few other Big XII teams. Writer C is a small conference follower who thinks BYU definitely deserves the BCS bid. Will the resume ranking shake out any fairer than the power poll? Again, in my opinion, possibly yes, but probably not.
Not that it’s not a good idea in theory.
by jc25 on Aug 15, 2008 6:09 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
JC, you've made a great argument for bloggers
and other “non-professional” sports watchers who have some basis to compete due to greater viewership and collaborative enterprise, and thus somewhat better eyes-on judgment about more teams.
I once stated here about my presumptions wrt to the editor of a major outdoors magazine whom I mistakenly thought would be just rollicking in the great outdoors. The truth was the poor SOB seldom ever got into the sunshine. Like many sports writers and even PB, he was hemmed in by the massive demands of his job. It’s all too common…same story as the coaches…no real time to view or analyze.
The professional and beat sportswriters do at least look at the wealth of the written record and have some level of credibility for those other writers and can come to some conclusion about what is legit and what is bullshit. That’s an edge but hardly a comprehensive grasp of the whole situation; at best a good extrapolation. Of course, most any sportswriter worth his salt can read a box score and get a fairly fundamental idea of the game in question.
Really, only the pros in Las Vegas see everything, dig deep into the box scores and written record well enough to make unvarnished judgments. The lines they fix are a function of their business only, but I speak more here of the ideal you are discussing, of actually seeing and analyzing all the games.
The only ones close are the football bloggers who do so in a community enterprise. So far, there are few prototypical models, although I’ll withhold judgment until SMQ reveals what he’s going to do next.
I think billyzane is pulling on a pretty good scab. Few of the pre-season polls should be taken seriously. Steele obviously puts the work in but most don’t; just rehash and sell. The market is really ripe for theft. I wonder if the SB Nation had an idea for such a high level interpretive and collaborative blog that culls all the member blogs to create the mother of all football blogs.
It’s really time for something completely integrative and definitive. That’s what this new medium is all about; the past is prologue. BZ is really doing an pre-death obit, which is what big papers do for big name people. In this case, our big name is preseason polls and actually, polls during the season. They suck, they’re unfair and everyone knows it.
When the pros become amateurs – precisely the case in much of this – the “unpaid” pros take over. Longhorny didn’t really mean it this way, but in fact, we can reinvent the wheel.
by whills on Aug 16, 2008 2:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
To address one tiny aspect
of the great discussion you gents are having.
SMQ has landed and is now blogging under the auspices of Dr. Saturday.
He’s braving Yahoo commenters folks. Keep him in your prayers and RSS feeds.
by learned hand on Aug 16, 2008 2:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, LH. Knew it was coming around quickly.
Damn, sounds like he needs a hand, hand, or some sharp-tongued sock puppets.
by whills on Aug 16, 2008 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
SMQ
That is a LOT of posting for one man to be doing on a day to day basis. It was hard enough keeping up with reading old SMQ; how am I going to handle this Dr. Saturday?!?
by jc25 on Aug 16, 2008 11:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I couldn't finish it all either.
The man’s a machine. Amazing volume. Must have Tolstoy in his lineage.
by whills on Aug 19, 2008 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reinventing the wheel...
I enjoy the arguments, best regular season in all of sports, no playoffs and bring on the polls.
by Longhorny on Aug 13, 2008 7:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
My favorite part
of the Heisenberg graph simplification is the implication that twice in the cycle (season) there is zero probability of finding particle (consensus #1). It feels more organic and less mechanical – more human and less computer.
by bfaut86 on Aug 13, 2008 9:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Ruining America?
Are pollsters suddenly armed with WMD and Big Macs?
It’s my observation that people are most disgruntled with polls when their team isn’t ranked as highly as they think it should be. They believe something or think they know something that others are missing, so they start looking for a more accurate way to do it (“look at their strength of schedule”, “just wait a few games until we prove how good we are”).
I’m not sure this statement is entirely accurate, “…there is no possible way to be any more objective in ranking teams than by doing it based only on what has actually occurred, …”
Non-resume based polls have their place. The fallacy of a resume based poll is that, though Team A might be able to beat Team B 4 out of 5 times, but there are days when David beats Goliath. A defender falls down, a kickoff is returned for a touchdown, or a key player is injured leading to an upset. A purely resume based poll would say that Team B should be ranked higher than Team A. A less mechanical system would differ.
While I would agree that any one pundit’s ranking might contain a number of inaccuracies, using polls to rank teams is more an expression of the Central Limit Theorem. The rankings in any poll are an average of the individual entries of those polled. The individuals are making an average assessment of the relative strength of the teams. Given enough data (not just a team’s record) and opinions, the poll will trend toward a more accurate assessment.
The odds-makers in Vegas are by far the best at determining which teams are better as a whole (Note that the “line” is not necessarily indicative of which team they think will WIN a game. The line is designed to draw bets so they can make money). The very nature of what they do is predictive, and therefore not based solely on what has occurred. What makes them good at what they do is that they remove all sentiment from the equation, something a single individual have a hard time doing. Of course they have a room full of people getting paid to do it, too.
I say the more polls the better.
by NM99 on Aug 14, 2008 11:59 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Ruining College football is much worse than McDonalds.
BZ is making the point, among others, that more faulty information does lead to a more enlightened answer. Especially when one is trying to create something definitive.
If I recall correctly (it’s been a while since I had Poli stat) you should not apply the central limit theorem to a self referencing system, as you’re assuming that variables are independently rather than dependently distributed for CL. In any case, you’re also working on a known set of axes, which isn’t true for CFB polls. College polls are inevitably self referencing systems, as you note with your David vs. Goliath metaphor, and the reality is that any flaw in the system will cause an echo effect with ramifications for the entire process.
More polls would not solve this problem, certainly not more poorly defined polls which have the necessary consequence of altering other poorly defined polls. Polls with a framework would help to at least ensure that we knew how to interpret the final result.
I do like your Vegas metaphor, in that Vegas attempts to create a reasonable margin for error in their system (the lines before profit), but considering the NCAA’s relationship with Vegas, I doubt they’ll be sharing statisticians and actuaries in this lifetime.
by learned hand on Aug 14, 2008 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
should be a “doesn’t” in the first sentence
by learned hand on Aug 14, 2008 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is my problem with what you're saying
The fallacy of a resume based poll is that, though Team A might be able to beat Team B 4 out of 5 times, but there are days when David beats Goliath. A defender falls down, a kickoff is returned for a touchdown, or a key player is injured leading to an upset. A purely resume based poll would say that Team B should be ranked higher than Team A. A less mechanical system would differ.
A resume-based approach does not in fact say that Team B should be ranked higher than team A. It instead says that the win by team B over team A should be taken into consideration exactly for what it is (a win for team B, which actually happened) and not for what it isn’t (4 wins out of 5 for team A, which are completely imaginary). What you’re saying is “yes, team B beat team A, but I personally know that this was a fluke and so I’m going to discount it that win.” But what is the basis for your assumption that team A would beat team B the next 4 times they play? Your imagination!
The point of a ranking, in my opinion, is to rank who has had the best season, not who is the best team. If the rankings themselves had no bearing on naming the national champion, then I wouldn’t care which methodology was used. But because they do, I think we should be rewarding the teams that had the best season, not the teams which we personally think would win an imaginary game. And the problem with what you’re suggesting is that you don’t much care what has actually happened in a certain season if you personally judge it to be a “fluke.” That’s great and all, but it actually DID happen. They didn’t play 5 times. They played once. And team B beat team A. That actually happened.
No one’s saying that 2007 Stanford should have been ranked ahead of 2007 USC even though Stanford beat USC. I’m just saying that you can’t discount that loss by USC and say, “well, that doesn’t really count because it was a total fluke. USC would beat Stanford 99 times out of a hundred.” Perhaps they would. But in 2007 they didn’t. They lost. In the larger scheme of the rivalry between Stanford and USC, this game may be the exception that proves the rule. But that shouldn’t matter for the 2007 poll. Because in 2007, Stanford beating USC was the rule, not the exception.
Also, you have not told me how this statement isn’t true: "…there is no possible way to be any more objective in ranking teams than by doing it based only on what has actually occurred, …" I’d love to hear how you can be more objective by basing your rankings on things that aren’t facts.
by billyzane on Aug 14, 2008 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where I was going
Perhaps I did not follow the argument far enough through.
"The point of a ranking, in my opinion, is to rank who has had the best season."
I take this to mean the teams’ win loss records.
1) If rankings were based solely on which team had the best season, Hawaii should have been playing in the BCS championship last year. This would have rewarded Hawaii for having a perfect season.
2) There are other objective factors besides the record at the end of a season. Physical match-up of players (these are numbers), coaching tendencies (probability of occurrence), home field advantage, performance in prior seasons. You may be familiar with the Pomeroy ratings from college basketball – they even include a quantitative "luck" factor. All of these things are evidence that can go into creating rankings. You don’t have to wait X games into a season to begin piecing the puzzle together.
3) Some "perceptions" are valuable. Strength of schedule is an opinion based on the perception of how good one conference is versus another. How outraged would most fans have been if Hawaii HAD actually played in the BCS championship? The Big XII is perceived as being a strong conference, giving it a tie to the BCS. If it were not well perceived, Texas probably wouldn’t have played in the Rose Bowl in 2005.
4) Perceptions set expectations. How does a team deal with the pressure of being #1, are they motivated or left hopeless by being the underdog? Without ranking based on perception, there would be no incentive to schedule challenging opponents. In fact, the opposite would be true – it would be advantageous to have the weakest schedule possible.
5) Is the information itself "faulty" or is it a poor interpretation of the information at hand? Like the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle example, the use of the Central Limit Theorem is extremely loose. Basically, CTL says that the more data you get, the more the average of the averages is going to approximate the true average. Throwing out the scenario where someone ranks the teams alphabetically, you have to assume that people are doing their best to assess the teams accurately. If I collect enough assessments of a single team, the average of those rankings is going to gravitate toward the actual ranking of that team. Thus the more rankings the better. The caveat is that they are actually a legitimate attempt to rank the quality of the teams and not just a bunch of random numbers.
Should the actual performance of a team weigh heavily in the evolving ranking as the season progresses? Absolutely. No one has said otherwise. However, empirically, if there were no other way to rate a team besides their record and all of these ratings were figments of the someone’s imagination, Vegas would be losing money hand over fist, not the other way around (if I knew exactly how they did it, I wouldn’t be typing this). I also question whether or not a 12 or 13 game season in which few teams share opponents or play them more than once provides enough data to truly assess a team based on results alone?
You stated that “…there is no possible way to be any more objective in ranking teams than by doing it based only on what has actually occurred, …” I said that I did not think this was ENTIRLEY accurate. Had you said that rankings need to be MORE objectively based on the results of the season, I would have agreed with you. A team with great talent that underperforms should not be rewarded. But to imply that ranking solely on record is the BEST way to rank teams is either short sighted or an attempt to justify a playoff that will never happen.
by NM99 on Aug 14, 2008 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't have time for a full rebuttal
but you are incorrect to assume that the “best season” is a straight up or down look at the records. of course strength of schedule goes into determining who had the best season. of course margin of victory counts to a certain extent. of course home field advantage matters. Team A beat Team B at Team B and that’s the only game Team B lost all year. these are all things that have actually occurred, thus there is no reason they can’t be taken into account. different people value each of these differently, and i’m fine with that. I’m merely saying that things that have actually happened should be the only things that should go into a pollster’s consideration when ranking. there should be a pool of facts from which each pollster draws his reasons for determining who has had the best season.
the only thing i’m saying should not be in that pool are things that are not facts. for instance, conjecture: “if Team A played Team C tomorrow, Team C would win for x, y, and z reasons.” While x, y, and z reasons might be factual, the pollster is still making up a hypothetical that has nothing to do with who has had the best season. he is taking facts and then creating his rankings based on how he thinks those facts would play out in an imaginary game.
you have construed my definition of “resume ranking” entirely too narrowly and I actually think our opinions don’t vary that much. and i think now that i have made myself clear about what i mean by “resume ranking,” most of your points above are answered.
as for point 5, you say, “If I collect enough assessments of a single team, the average of those rankings is going to gravitate toward the actual ranking of that team.” that’s only true if all of the people ranking the teams are ranking the same thing. if some are trying to rank who has had the best season while some are trying to rank who is the “best” team this very second, then an average does nothing. if everyone agrees that we’re ranking teams based on who had the best season (taking into account all kinds of facts that have actually occurred), then you are correct — even if every person values certain of those facts differently than everyone else (i.e. one person thinks winning on the road is more important than winning by a wide margin at home, and another thinks the opposite), that’s great because an average will in fact gravitate towards a consensus. but when everyone is trying to rank different things (1 alphabetical, 1 by favorite mascot, for an extreme example, and “best team” vs. “best season” for a more nuanced example) then an average tells you nothing of value.
by billyzane on Aug 14, 2008 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not quite a preseason ranking
but SI has just released their preseason “in-depth” preview of the Big 12.
As I mentioned in another thread, thanks for sites like BON, where there is actually some depth. It appears that SI is swimming in the kiddie pool, if this is their definition of “in-depth”.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/football/ncaa/specials/preview/2008/08/14/big.12/index.html?eref=T1
by Longhorn in Canada on Aug 17, 2008 9:04 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

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