The Annual Playoffs Post
I want a college football playoff. Most of you want a college football playoff. Many of the coaches want a college football playoff. Why can't we have a college football playoff?
Because at least by one measure -- dollars, the only one that counts to those who make the decisions -- the system ain't yet broke. The Statesman notes that local ratings for this year's Fiesta Bowl were monstrous, with the game drawing a 36.4 rating and 50.4 share in Austin. Translation? Just over half of all televisions on Monday night in Austin were tuned to the football game. Nationally, the Fiesta Bowl fared less well of course (11.6 rating), but Fox easily won the Monday night primetime ratings and enjoyed a double-digit boost (up 38%) from last year's match up between Oklahoma and West Virginia.
Elsewhere in the BCS, the Rose Bowl (up about 5%) and Sugar Bowl (up 10%) have also enjoyed a ratings boost from a year ago. Only the Orange Bowl between Virginia Tech and Cincinnati -- at 5.4 the lowest rated BCS game ever -- has seen a decline in ratings. Television ratings of several other non-BCS bowls have been up this year, as well -- from the Cotton Bowl (Tech vs Ole Miss, up 38%) to the Poinsettia Bowl (TCU vs Boise State, up 115%).
Count on the BCS propagandists pointing to these numbers as evidence the current system is healthy and thriving. I can see the press release already -- "Throngs Of Fans Tune In To Bowl Mania," with the lead a suggestion that the ratings are proof positive that the status quo is more than just okay.... but outright popular.
Do not be fooled. The strong ratings for college football bowl games speak to the health of the sport, but I think beneath the easy press tag is evidence supporting a very different storyline than the one the BCS proponents are likely to peddle. Look no further than the one BCS match up featuring two teams who would have been excluded from an 8-team playoff -- the Orange Bowl between Virginia Tech and Cincinnati. The ratings were atrocious. Why?
Because the game was not only meaningless in our current system, but would have been meaningless in any reasonably sized playoff system as well. In contrast, I think it's fair to conclude that the ratings jump seen in other bowls reflects the degree to which at least one participant (frequently both) would have been a factor in a national title playoff.
FIESTA -- Texas, obviously, was in strong consideration for the national title.
ROSE -- Both Penn State and USC would be participants in a playoff system.
SUGAR -- Both Alabama and Utah would be participants in a playoff system.
ORANGE -- Neither Cincinnati nor Virginia Tech were a part of the national title conversation.
COTTON -- 11-1 Texas Tech would have been included in most national title playoffs.
POINSETTIA -- TCU probably makes a 16-team field, while Boise State has a case to be included in an 8-team playoff field.
The interest in these games had nothing to do with the contests as situated in the current format -- which is terrible -- and everything to do with college football pitting two strong, theoretically title-worthy teams against one another. We watch in the current format when the match up (indirectly) speaks to something we care about, but imagine the increased interest if that Sugar Bowl had been a winner-moves-on contest? The ratings would double. Imagine the hysteria if Texas' last-second win had meant the 'Horns advanced to the national semifinals against Utah or USC?
As is, Utah's grand reward for their stunning thump of Alabama was a Rick Reilly column. Congratulations. You won a bundle of smuggy puns.
The strong television ratings for college football are indicative of the sport's overall health, but to use them as evidence to support the superiority of the current system is to misunderstand entirely why we're watching these bowl games at all. (Or why, as in the case of the Orange Bowl, we aren't watching.) If the money mongers really want to get me to watch post-season games in earnest, put a real stake behind the outcomes.
With that said, I'll obligatorily indulge a few arguments related to the usual playoff objections, because I'm not going to beat the playoff horse to death all offseason long:
The Regular Season Will Be Ruined. I've never understood this one. I understand the logic behind it, but haven't any idea how an intelligent person could apply the concept to reality and come out with "the BCS is better." It's pretty simple:
BCS Format -- A few games take on exceptional importance, but an enormous swath of games are rendered irrelevant from the moment a team is realistically out of contention for one of the top two spots in the BCS.
Playoff Format -- A small number of games per season which could be more critical in the BCS Format in some playoff systems become "merely" very important. As an example, Michigan versus Ohio State in 2006 would in some playoff formats be "less meaningful" than it was in our current system. The problem, though, is that scores of sensible playoff systems can be structured to counter for this, and even the worst playoff proposals hardly render these mega-important (in the BCS Format) games meaningless.
A playoff system could, as Brian at MGoBlog supports, have a home field component built into it, in which case that Michigan-Ohio State game is still enormously important. The winner receives a #1 (or #2 at worst) seed and home game (in the cold!) in the first round of the playoffs. The loser gets a road game -- likely traveling south to play a warm weather school. Now factor in that fans outside of the Big 10 care even more about the game (future playoff opponents clashing on the field)... plus the fact that every. single. Michigan/OSU. fan. in. existence. will tell you that the winner's prize could be a date with the Devil and they'd still prefer to win... and it's impossible for me to conclude that the regular season would -- could -- be diluted by a playoff. I think it's far more likely the interest would in most cases only increase.
Other proposals, like billyzane''s Flex Playoff System, counter for this as well. I'm especially fond of BZ's system precisely because it would preserve a lot of the regular season "Oh crap, will this one game knock us out of the national title" fear. In a flex system, you simply can't know in advance whether any given loss will wind up costing you a shot at the national title, so you assume at the time that it's a Must Win. If, like in 2005, two teams such as Texas and USC finish a perfect 12-0, your outstanding 11-1 isn't going to get you a bid into an expanded playoff field. In other years, like the current season, that 11-1 ledger gets you in a 6/8/whatever team field. You won't know until the end, so you can't pretend any part of the regular season is somehow cheapened by a playoff's existence.
And finally, let me just emphasize again how many additional games become more important in a playoff system than are in the current one. USC-UCLA was a rivalry game this year because the Trojans had no chance whatsoever to jump OU/Texas or Florida, but it would have had playoff implications in any other system. In some playoff systems, this year's Ohio State-Michigan game would have had playoff implications. Utah-BYU would have been an enormously more important football game, with the Utes playing for a chance to compete for the national title, instead of a chance to earn Rick Reilly's approval.
The Regular Season Is A Playoff. Quickly, let's dismiss the corollary to the point above. The regular season is anything but a playoff. It is an incoherent beauty pageant.
The vast majority of teams never play one another and undefeated teams can be and are left out in the cold. If the regular season was a playoff, neither Boise State nor Utah can be said to be included in this playoff. Auburn fans in 2004 would disagree. Texas fans felt the sting of the "playoff system" this year.
In the current system, the regular season is meaningful, as it should be. But it is not a playoff. And as discussed above, a postseason playoff needn't sacrifice the meaningful nature of the regular season just by nature of its including an actual playoff at the end.
Bowls have a long history worth preserving. Keep them. The "Big Bowls" can be a part of the playoffs, while there's absolutely nothing at all incompatible with a swarm of teams who missed the playoffs competing in these other bowls.
The debate is what makes the sport great. Move to Washington, D.C. Pick a side. Have fun with all the crybaby debate. Seriously: more power to you, if that's your bag. But football ain't a sport about ideas; it's a competition on the field. Give me as much of that as possible, with as little politicking as possible. College football is rich in traditions which make it quirky and unique. Stylistic squabbling over two top spots is not one we must protect with all the vigor we can muster.
There will always be debate and perceived slights, even in a playoff system. Granted, but it's undeniable that the injustice at being shut out as the #9 team in an 8-team playoff is less offensive than what Auburn suffered in 2004, or any of the aggrieved (USC, Texas, Penn State, Utah, Texas Tech) did in 2008. More to the point, the objection simply speaks to one important issue that a playoff system should be designed to deal with; it is not in and of itself not a reason to have a playoff.
Whether the solution is to have a flex playoff (allowing for some flexibility of pool size when necessary) or an emphasis on competency among the panelists who select the participants, filling the field in a sensible, fair way is attainable -- and in every case an improvement over the current model and its two-team limitation.
What about these kids as students? What about them? The status quo is a tragicomedy of exploitation. To say that we can't have a playoff because we're concerned for the football player as a student is akin to Congressmen saying they're opposed to pay raises for legislators because they're deeply concerned people might think they might be benefiting from their positions of power.
Not only does the current (overwhelming) indifference towards academic interests render laughably thin any objection on those grounds, but even were that priority a serious one (as perhaps it should be), the list of remedies that would better help the student athletes in question is a long one.
A college football playoff is fine in theory, but would be botched in practice. I mention last the only objection to playoffs that I find persuasive. (Oddly, it's the one I rarely -- if ever -- hear from proponents of the status quo.) If I were opposed to a playoff, I think the one thing I'd point out is that the same people who gave us the BCS are the ones who would put together the playoff system. And though the right committee could in theory spend 24 hours analyzing any of a dozen sensible proposals laid out by bloggers, fans, journalists, and coaches, the final result would instead likely be a mish-mashed amalgam of compromises centered on TV dollars and maximizing protection of entrenched interests. I honestly wonder whether -- after a playoff change was announced -- I might go from celebrating wildly to (after the actual format was presented) burying my head in my hands in disbelief.
If anyone could find a way to screw up the easiest decision in sports... it's the same people who allow Richard Billingsley to help determine the national champion.
On that point we might all agree and find ourselves unified in frustration until, one day, we as fans decide to vote with our wallets, turning off our TVs.
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98 comments
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Comments
If dollars are so important?
Then would an 8-team playoff not generate more interest and more money?
I just don’t really see how the argument that money is a factor can be justified. I am sure that OU and Florida will have the best ratings because it is the only game that actually means something.
Great Stuff PB. When you lay it out like this, there is not a logical argument against a playoff.
Adopt-a-recruit: Devon Kennard DE
Phoenix (AZ) Desert Vista 6'3" 257lbs
by blazzinken on Jan 8, 2009 2:39 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Rationally it does not make sence
But this Economist article from their end of the year double issue may help explain it:
The relative nature of status explains the paradox observed in 1974 by an economist called Richard Easterlin that, while rich people are happier than poor people within a country, average happiness does not increase as that country gets richer. This has been disputed recently. But if it withstands scrutiny it means the free-market argument—that because economic growth makes everybody better off, it does not matter that some are more better off than others—does not stand up, at least if "better off" is measured in terms of happiness.
If you think of the BCS conferences as the “rich people” and the non-BCS conferences as the “poor”, then while the BCS conferences will be richer in a playoff than the current system, they probably will have a smaller percentage of the wealth than they currently hold. The perceived loss of status drives them to keep an ineffective system.
by Wells on Jan 8, 2009 11:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Great post, PB
Pretty much nailed that one. To answer blazzinken, I think a lot of money is earned by BCS bowls from all the promotion crap that surrounds each bowl. They have a month before the end of the season and the start of these games, and the teams arrive early and they can try to have fanfare and media attention. Some of this is theoretically lost as some bowls simply would not know who is coming until the previous week or so, and then they wouldn’t have much time to promote the game as they would like. Selfish and stupid, as you are right: I think a playoff would generate more money anyway, but whatever.
by TheElusiveShadow on Jan 8, 2009 2:53 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I have never thought if it like that.
Because I really hate the month long layoff, but the bowl games and the sponsors love it.
I am sure that merchandise, sponsorship or, whatever these big bowls are looking for, would not generate as much revenue as an opening round match up between Texas and Utah(3 v 6). But Tostitos could still put there name on it. And I would like to think ratings would be higher for that game in a playoff situation then a "Glorified scrimmage’.
I know this may be the Texas fan in me talking but I hate the fact that tonight will not crown a “true National Champion.” It bugs me even more that the Sooners could call themselves champs but lost to a team that is just as deserving and with the exact same record.
I thought I was past this but all this Florida and OU talk has really gotten my juices flowing
Adopt-a-recruit: Devon Kennard DE
Phoenix (AZ) Desert Vista 6'3" 257lbs
by blazzinken on Jan 8, 2009 6:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Regular Season and an Apalling Lack of Strategic Vision
Great post, but one more thought about the regular season argument: Isn’t it already ruined? Well, not ruined, but at least not what it could be? I believe it was week 3 this season when Reece Davis declared (to paraphrase): “the games this week just suck.” (Think about for a moment what it takes for him to say that — one of his primary jobs is to promote the games that his network is carrying). The point is, the current system incentivizes traditional powers to schedule “buy” games so as not to tarnish their record going into conference play in hopes of making one of those two coveted spots in the BCS game and generally encourages 2-3 weeks per season of noncompetitive matchups.
A playoff system could have several benefits. First, shaving a week off the regular season to make room for a playoff system partially addresses the “strain on the student-athlete” argument" and probably eliminates a week of useless games. Second, a playoff system would do more to incentivize challenging schedules, as every team would want to make the strongest possible case that it should be included in the field and seeded well.
Finally, one of the things that bothers me most about the system created by the BCS and those who apologize for it is their embarassing lack of strategic vision. If it’s dollars they’re after (and I’m sure it is), I firmly believe that a playoff system would generate substantially more revenue and (as you noted) could be done in a way that includes the big bowls and still allows the Meineke Car Care Bowl and its ilk to provide an NIT-type outlet for teams left out of the playoffs.
by wdchorns on Jan 8, 2009 6:59 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Sched
One question is the scheduling of the playoff rounds. There would seem to be powerful economic incentives to have four games on New Years Day, so that might set the semis for the week after, and the finals for the middle of January. But there might be non-playoff bowls on New Years, maybe two since you want to keep the Rose Bowl in the afternoon and another bowl at night to feature the playoff teams. So that’s the semis, leaving the championship the next week, pretty much as we have now, or skipping a week to put it in mid January. A skip week has some value looking back to the quarterfinals as well, since it keeps you off of Christmas. Note that there is also room here for an octofinal (16 team) round in December that could even be spread across two weeks to allow four games each weekend. The effect such a playoff would be sustained interest in college football, while at the same time providing off weeks for rest, practice, and studies.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
by Caradoc on Jan 8, 2009 9:46 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
A particularly well written and well...
…thought through post, even by your standards, PB. As a playoff skecptic I would only make the following points.
A. You are absolutely wright in identifying the principal but not at atll inconsquential objection to a prospective playoff: the possibility, if not, indeed, the near certainty that it would be made into a disgracefull disaster. Add the possibility if not the probability of expansion to 16 teams and meaningful degradation of the sport is inevitable.
B. Absolutely love BZs system (for which he himself makes the most comprehensive and compelling case and which need not be rehearsed here), would consider it a huge improvement on what we have now, and have been pushing it on everyone everywhere I can for nearly 2 years.
C. Involving the Bowls in a prospective system. Yes, and this years bowls have told us something about the dangers of an overinclusive pre-formated system. Penn State and Tech would have been included in a playoff and yet the bowls clearly show that they did not deserve a shot, although we probably already knew that about Tech (to be fair, they might well have played differently with advancement at stake). Wonderful for Utah, a great accomplishment, a top 5 team, but do I really believe that a team that beat TCU (thrashed by OU in Fort Worth) by 3 points in overtime and an unmotivated (in the 1s quarter), Andre Smithless Bama deserve a shot at the Florida/OU winner when Florida beat a supermotivated Bama with Smith, when they themselves were without Harvin? I think not.
D. USC has a beef but its not like they played a murderers row in in the Pac 10 (the great bowl showing notwithstanding) and they did loose to Oregon State (crushed by PSU, lost to Stanford, crushed by Oregon, scored 3 points against Pitt).
E. The one team that really has a gripe, you’ll be surprised to learn is the Horns, which fell victim to a ludicrous Big 12 rule and … um.. subpar judging in the beauty contests with OU. First, because we’re damned good looking. Second, because it would have been very difficult for reasonable voters to look closely at the resumes, the season, and the head-to-head and give the edge to OU. As an objective matter I can’t acutally say we’re better than them, though I like our chances in a a rematch for reason you’ve delineated elsewhere. I absolutely think, however, that we did enough to have been placed in the BIG12CG. (FWIW, I don’t at all like our chances against Florida which will beat the LTs like by at least 10 points).
Bottom line, fantastic and very persuasive post, but remain skeptical of a playoff.
marshalld
by duras on Jan 8, 2009 10:02 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Point C
Almost seems to me to be an argument for a playoff. You are trying to use transitive properties to determine which teams could be good enough to beat another, when a playoff will allow this to be determined on the field.
by Wells on Jan 8, 2009 11:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Its certainly not an argument against a playoff...
…the strongest of which is PB’s last point, as I say from the beginning. I’m simply saying that this year the bolwls functioned in such a way as to elminate the pretentions of some of the contendors (most especially Penn State and to some degree Tech – although they did certainly strengthen, though not in an ultimately presuasive fashion, that of Utah). To be sure, this is not always the case as we saw last year (and the reduced capacity of the bowls to illuminate the MNC picture was reflected in the lower ratings.).
Also, If we were to have a playoff I would want the bowls to be part of it.
As for your point respecting the limitation of transitive arguments, I completely agree, to an extent. No, I do not believe tha because Vandy beat Ole Miss via of a bunch of turnovers, and because Ole Miss beat Tech and we lost to Tech (barely, on the road, at the end of a guelling stretch) that Vandy is therefore better than us. However, TCU has shown itslef to be a legit team. They contained the Sooners just about as well as we did, Utah needed overtime to beat them at home. Does this convince me that OU is better than the Sooners? Yes. Do I believe that if OU played Utah in a game with MNC implications that they would win? Yes. Would they beat Utah 8 out of 10 times? Yes I discuss the cirucmstances of the Alabama games vs. Utah/Florida above. Does this lead me to a fairly confident conclusion, particularly in light of the Ole Miss win in the Cotton, that Florida is better than Utah? Yes.
In an ideal world I would now like to see a 4 team playoff between ourselves, Utah, USC and the Florida/OU winner. In the absence of such I am fairly certain that neither Penn State, Tech nor, to a lesser extent, Utah, has the best resume or is at this time the strongest team in the nation.
marshalld
by duras on Jan 8, 2009 12:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That should read "...that OU is better than Utah...), of course.
marshalld
by duras on Jan 8, 2009 1:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You include us in that 4 team play off, but how? We BARELY beat OSU. USC demolished them. So did Penn st. I think your agrument disqualifies us.
by UT_BKC on Jan 8, 2009 1:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, point C is pure BS. Who cares if Utah barely beat TCU who got crushed by OU. Guess what, Utah crushed Bama, who nearly beat Floriday. So which transitive property would you like to use? The one that most suits you? That is certainly what the talking head at ESPN do.
How about this ‘math’ example:
Ga Tech put 45 on Ga AT Ga, beating them. LSU was embarassed by Ga at HOME. Therefore, GaTech should crush LSU. What happened.?
Or: Wake beat Ole Miss on a last second field goal at Wake. Ole Miss beat UF AT UF on a blocked last second field goal. Therefore, Wake should definitely beat UF at home. Who thinks that would happen? It might. I can’t say.
I can keep going. UT beat OU, UT lost to Tech, theferfore….
by UT_BKC on Jan 8, 2009 12:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, I’d like to point out that a 16 team play off is in no way too many teams. That is approximately 15% of all the schools. Being in the top 16 means you probably didn’t lose more than 2 games. Losses happen. No one complains that the NCAA basketball champion has a loss or two in the regular season (although they take more than 15% of teams to the playoffs, so not the exact same comparisson. Games would still be relatively more ‘meaningful’ in cfootball). Same with the NFL.
It also help get rid of this “well, they didn’t play in the SEC, so they can’t be THAT good” BS.
by UT_BKC on Jan 8, 2009 12:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
A. I do respect what Utah accomplished this year, in no way
analogize your situation to that of Hawaii (pre-Sugar) last year or even the commendable but still flukey effort by Boise State 2 years ago. As I say in my reply above, I would ideally like to see a 4 team playoff at this point and would still say so even if we had lost to Ohio state and it would be a 3 team ployoff of the Florida/OU winner against the winner of Utah/USC. In the absence of that preferred result I am fairly confident that both Florida an OU are better than Utah.
As for the argument respecting transitive properies, I address that above but if evaluated judiciously it is certainly possible to evince considerable meaning from games against tcommon opponents. To the extent that we want to preserve the value of the regular season (and as PB argues a playoff need not, though it very well may greately diminish such value) we need to do that and can in looking at things like turnovers, homefield, scheduling and so forth.
Generally the playoff argument was expansively considered in billyzanes proposals from a couple of year ago and in the susbsequent comments. If you have the time I would heartiyly recommend it. You may not agree with the conclusions of the playoff oponents or those who favors the most limited playoff (such as myself) but it should at the least prove illuminating.
marshalld
by duras on Jan 8, 2009 1:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
OH. And ANOTHER point. Sorry.
Point E contridict point C/D in a way. You say that UT has the most gripe. Well, if you include bowl games, they do not. At all. They barely beat OSU. OSU was beaten soundly by Penn St and USC. USC whipped Penn pretty good. That means that UT should be behind Penn St who is behind USC.
Personally, I’d bet on us against anyone in the country. But the above is what you get when you depend on a beauty contest.
by UT_BKC on Jan 8, 2009 12:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Intensely opposed to a 16 team playoff
and am skeptical of a playoff at least in part because one we get to 4 or 8 teams there will inevitably be a push for 16 teams (at the very least). This may generate a lot of money but would, imo, change college football very much for the worse.
To say that a smaller percentage of college teams would make it than those in the NFL is to suggest it would have been OK for Madoff to defraud people of only 20 rather than 50 billion. A 16 team playoff would inevitably include teams with no reasonable claim to have had something approaching the best season and would indeed significantly degrade the qulity of the regular season.
Again, I recommend BillyZanes pieces and the comments.
marshalld
by duras on Jan 8, 2009 1:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry...this should have been in reply to the comment ...
…respecting 16 teams.
marshalld
by duras on Jan 8, 2009 1:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What does Madoff have anything to do with this? Nothing. If you let in 50% of the teams, yes, that waters down the regular season. It doesn’t take much to get in. To crack the top 16% though does in fact keep the regular season important. Just look at the NFL, which allows many more teams. The last weekend is typically still important as to who gets in and who gets home field advantage.
by UT_BKC on Jan 8, 2009 2:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm
I would say that even the current system, somewhat judiciously applied, should have put Texas in the BIG12CG and therfeore, almost certainly in the game tonight against Florida.
I am thrilled with our season but not entirely pleased with the Fiesta. I think we’re better than you but there is no question you could beat us on a given afternoon of evening. I would certainly hope we wouldn’t overlook you but then again even before the Sugar Bowl I did not think Bama should or would do so. It does appear that they did, although one can hardly take away from your excellent game plan and terrific execution. In any event, You guys had a chance to host us this year and that would have settled part of the argument at least.
marshalld
by duras on Jan 8, 2009 1:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
First, the UT is for the University of Texas.
Second, I’ve read quite a few “playoffs would diminish the regular season and allow unworthy teams” in BS.
My argument is that if we apply your logic, UTexas, does not get in to a 4 team play off. But, like I’ve already said, I’d bet on UT over anyone this season.
Bama did not overlook Utah anymore than we did OSU. They simply got whipped on both sides of the ball (Oher on plays one way).
Whose to say that some 9-3 teams with a truly tough schedule is less deserving than an 11-1 team that played 2 division II schools and handfull of 5-7/6-6 D1 schools? I wouldn’t feel comfortable making a judgement call on any two teams unless they had approximately 6 or 7 common opponents.
by UT_BKC on Jan 8, 2009 2:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Profound, sincere and abject apologies...
…with all due respect to Utah, I would never wish to confuse the two, football being among the least of the reason to avoid the confusion.
Actually, we would have gotten into a 4 team playoff. We were clearly the team the next team in ine, especially in light of the the way OU was given the preferance. USC would have been the 4th team. In a 6 team playoff Penn State and Utah would go but Tech had a plausible claim. Who the 8th team would have been, I don’t know but I’m fairly sure that this year,as in most years. 8 teams would have been overly inclusive, though not necessarilly so much as to devalue the season.
As to your query about the 9-3 and 11-1 I would say that neither one would deserve to be included in the playoff. To the extent that what we are seeking to determine is the identity of the team that has had the best season and deserves national championship consideration, neither one would meet that criterion. It is almost inconceivable that 16 teams would ever do so and even 8 are unlikely in most years. If all we want to know is who wins a tournament at the end of the season, subject to injuries and general attrition incurred in the process, a larger tournament would be acceptable but by the very act of including teams with such inferior season we would inherently devalue the value of excellence in that season.
Again, and I know I’m beating a dead horse (or Longhorn, as it were) but BZ’s post on this subject is really excellent. Its clear that we are coming at this from very different perspectives and will not agree but those posts would clarify the perspective of those seeking to limit the scope of a playoff and those who oppose one generally.
marshalld
by duras on Jan 8, 2009 3:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll keep this short...
… but I just wanted to say, how lucky are we as Texas fans / fans of this blog to have a freaking law student making such well-written arguments like this?
Props to Mr. Bean.
by TXinDC on Jan 8, 2009 10:17 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
A Playoff makes the Regular Season more Important
I grew up watching both BCS (1-A) and FCS (1-AA) football. My father is from Texas and my mother is from Montana. As a fan of good football I follow both teams. This has let me see the Playoff System work.
Montana plays in the FCS and is one of the top teams in that division. I watch as they play each game and if one doesn’t go their way they start to wonder if they wont make the playoffs. They play each week for the opportunity to stay ranked as a top team and and a chance to play for the National Title. By the time the Playoffs come at the end of November and through December anyone can win it is so intense and the stadiums are sold out and TV viewing is at a high. By the time the title game has come lines have been drawn and once its over you have a National Champion. This years NC features Montana and the Richmond Spiders. The Spiders won. There was no controversy over who was the National Champion.
If there was a playoff system in the BCS I can guarantee that it would be even bigger. Unless you are a fan of the FCS school you don’t pay attention to them, but with the BCS everyone throughout the country knows who they are. Hears the controversy and thinks that the system has a problem.
A playoff system would do wonders for the BCS.
Let it be played out on the field, not in a computer. Using the argument that you should do it because everyone else does, usually doesn’t work, but in the case they use a playoff system to determine who is the best in most sports and it works. Moneys not the issue. In the FCS there are no sponsors for the playoffs (its not allowed) and they still bring in an excess. For Montana the playoffs every year help the budget.
Someday hopefully the BCS will figure it out.
Thanks for a great argument PB!
by boehn46 on Jan 8, 2009 10:23 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Exactly where/what is the opposition?
Peter,
Excellent, cogent and persuasive argument that in one form or another has been made by you and others for years. It seems like a no-brainer, yet I see no movement toward a play-off by the powers that decide such matters. Exactly what or who do you thnk is keeping this from coming about and why?
"Only angry people win football games." --DKR
by OBdoc on Jan 8, 2009 10:29 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
In response
For a well-written response as to why it ain’t happenin’, take a gander at Stewart Mandel’s book—he has a whole chapter dedicated to it. He also briefly addresses it here.
by jc25 on Jan 8, 2009 10:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I am for a playoff
but they have the “Cinderallas” which sicken me. You get a 9-4, 10-3 underachiever who “gets hot” and is suddenly the National Champion and their coach is a genius. Other than that, I agree.
When I see a team like the Chargers (8-8, fun to watch, not for the Colts I guess) win in the playoffs and say things like “we’re all 0-0 right now, its a new season”, I feel like it’s an absolute slap in the face.
I suppose the counter argument is if you are truly championship material you can beat anyone, anytime, anywhere, under any pressure situation.
by owenh on Jan 8, 2009 10:35 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Owenh, great point. That’s why I think the play-offs should be limited to 8 teams at most. None of this “March Madness”/65 team/everyone is invited to the dance foolishness. That indeed would cheaped the rest of the season.
"Only angry people win football games." --DKR
by OBdoc on Jan 8, 2009 10:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
Many opponents of the playoffs use this argument as well: that playoffs don’t always reward the team with the best season. I agree and that’s why most people only want a small playoff where all teams involved had a season worthy of a NC. No one wants to see the 8-4 ACC champion Hokies get lucky and stumble onto a Championship, but there were clearly 6-8 teams that had a legitimate claim to the NC this year.
I personally like the 6 team format with the top 2 getting a first round bye. This involves only 5 games, and 3 extra games at most for any team. Would make for awesome football and wouldn’t affect the regular season at all.
by Horn37 on Jan 8, 2009 11:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This is true, however
The cinderella teams rarely make it all the way. Perhaps there was one but I can think of it. It’s a great show for the media during the first few round but then reality sets in and they are eventually eliminated by a deserving contender. I think the deeper you go into the playoff you find out who the real contenders are and who the pretenders were. Hot streaks are just that, streaks, and they rarely last more than a few games against heavy competition. Look at Vandy this year early on. Great start, good for them. But when the meat of their schedule began, it was over.
I say more rounds of playoffs, not fewer. A four team is weak. Need minimum 8, preferably 12 to 16 with some byes.
by UT92 on Jan 8, 2009 11:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If a team can make it through 4 rounds without losing to the best competition in the sport, they are not “lucky.” If the “hot” team that is the “best” because of their record loses in the first round, it doesn’t necessarily mean they are unlucky.
Say we had a 16 team play off this year and UF was playing Oregong or BYU and lost, does it mean that UF was just unlucky, or maybe they were a given a little too much credit for making it through the “TOUCH” SEC which had losees to: Wake (x2), GaTech (x2), Texas, UCLA, Duke, Iowa, Clemson, freakin La Tech and Wyoming. Could be either one. You’d find out the next round if Oregon/BYU tanked.
Yes, you may get unlucky and lose one —or you may just show that you were’t really #1 (remember, the determing factor for getting into the playoffs is still a beauty pagent with much bias), but you don’t get lucky and win 4.
by UT_BKC on Jan 8, 2009 12:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The chances that an undeserving team
will win are slim, the chances that a deserving team will sustain injuries against an undeserving team that will have an impact against deserving contendors are substanti.
marshalld
by duras on Jan 8, 2009 3:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The probability can't be high
Someone can look it up no doubt. However, the logic goes both ways: your “deserving contenders” will also face this peril, so it’ll even out over time.
by UT92 on Jan 8, 2009 6:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Boycott
College football fans, the vast majority of whom indisputably want a playoff, have the power in their own hands to fix this continuing abortion of a system. A nationwide boycott of but a single week of college football early in the Fall would bring the current cartel to its knees. Are we ready to take back our game?
by lawdog13 on Jan 8, 2009 11:54 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
That would be tough to organize
Maybe have everyone go out and support their local Championship subdivision, or DII or DIII team, who have championships for that week.
by Wells on Jan 8, 2009 12:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No pain no gain, Wells. We’ve all been whining for years. Maybe it’s finally time to do something about it.
by lawdog13 on Jan 8, 2009 12:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m sort of boycotting this years title game. I’m not organizing or anything. I just don’t want to watch it. Usually on the week night if I was bored I’d flip to a football game even if I really didn’t care about it (I watched FAU play in a game OTHER than when they played us, lol). I won’t do that tonight.
by UT_BKC on Jan 8, 2009 12:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What's Good for the Goose...
We need to take the arguments of those who defend the current BCS system to their logical conclusions. We are told about the importance of academics and not interferring with exams. We are told the current system makes every regular season game important and creates fan interest even in games outside their conference. We then to say, “OK, fine,” and ask the defenders of the staus quo why shouldn’t these noble concernsalso apply to basketball and baseball? Shouldn’t we have a “BCS” in these sports? Why not have just the top 2 teams in baseball (determined by polls and computer rankings) play a best 4 out of 7 College World Series. None of this regionals, super-regionals, and 8-team CWS.
"Only angry people win football games." --DKR
by OBdoc on Jan 8, 2009 1:50 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
On ratings...
Ratings are only up when measured against last year’s horrid showing. Follow the trends from year’s past, ratings are, on the whole, way down. 2009 was a bad bowl season compared to 2006, 2005, 2004, etc. Here are the highest rated games (not counting national championships) from BCS bowls:
1.Rose Bowl 2004 Michigan-USC 14.4
2.Rose Bowl 2000 Wisconsin-Stanford 14.1
3.Rose Bowl 2001 Washington-Purdue 14.0
4.Rose Bowl 1999 Wisconsin-UCLA 13.3
5.(tie) Sugar Bowl 2001 Miami-Florida 12.9
6.(tie) Fiesta Bowl 2006 Ohio State-Notre Dame 12.9
7.Rose Bowl 2005 Texas-Michigan 12.4
8.Orange Bowl 2006 Penn State-Florida State 12.3
— INSERT 2009 ROSE BOWL — USC-PENN STATE 11.7
9.Sugar Bowl 1999 Ohio State-Texas A&M 11.5
10.(tie) Fiesta Bowl 2002 Oregon-Colorado 11.3
11.(tie) Orange Bowl 2000 Michigan-Alabama 11.3
12.(tie) Rose Bowl 2003 Oklahoma-Washington State 11.3
13.Fiesta Bowl 2001 Oregon State-Notre Dame 10.7
—INSERT 2009 FIESTA BOWL TEXAS-OSU 10.4
14.(tie) Orange Bowl 2003 USC-Iowa 9.7
15.(tie) Orange Bowl 2004 Miami-Florida State 9.7
16.(tie) Fiesta Bowl 2000 Nebraska-Tennessee 9.5
17. (tie) Sugar Bowl 2005 Auburn-Virginia Tech 9.5
18. (tie) Orange Bowl 2002 Florida-Maryland 9.5
AND SO ON this year’s Sugar Bowl would rank around 31st and the Orange Bowl is horrible.
As should be obvious from the above, what matters for ratings have more to do with the quality of matchups than with anything else — see 2009 Orange Bowl. Also remember that stagnation should be attributed as loss, and it’s just as likely looking at the 2009 BCS ratings to conclude that the league has stagnated in popularity as it is to conclude that things are looking sunny. We’re still way down from years past. As far as Rose Bowl’s are concerned, and that was this year’s best rated game, we’re way down. This year’s Fiesta isn’t even all that hot, down from 2001, 2002, and 2006 (and 2003 and 1999, obviously). And that’s WITH a one loss Texas and a 2 loss OSU in the game, two of the biggest teams of the decade playing after very successful regular season runs. Does that strike anyone as ratings progress?
I’ll happily speculate as to the cause in the general decline in ratings. As CFB fans become increasingly disenfranchised with the BCS system, they care less and less about matchups between Cincy and V. Tech and even games like Texas and OSU or USC and Penn State, because there’s less certainty that the right teams are even playing the right people. Rose Bowl: Down. Sugar Bowl: Down. Fiesta Bowl: Down. Orange Bowl: WAY DOWN. I don’t think fans are getting disinterested with CFB generally, I think they’re getting disinterested with individual bowl games that they find increasingly pointless because they don’t decide anything. Who cares if Utah beats Alabama, which is sad since Utah is fucking undefeated. Who cares about the Rose Bowl when Florida-OU is all that matters? Who cares about Ohio State in a bowl game when many people don’t even think they deserve to be there? Who could ever, really care about V. Tech v. Cincy besides… people from Va Tech or Cincy?
Celebrating some minor improvement on last year’s historically AWFUL bowl season is celebrating mediocrity. The trend from about 2006 and prior is that fewer households are tuning in, and that’s what will drive the sport towards a playoff. There’s been a huge upswell of support for playoffs in just the past few years, and I’m pretty sure that much of that is driven by… $$$$$$. As it becomes increasingly clear that the current system is, at best, good for keeping the status quo and, at worst, continues to decrease in importance the CFB postseason to home viewers, we’ll see more people publicly supporting a playoff.
I’m pretty sure NFL playoffs are healthy as they’ve ever been.
by Skin Patrol on Jan 8, 2009 2:49 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Here we go again...
Peter, I regret that I cannot share in the one-sided favoritism flowing from your choir, as I found all arguments in this to be frighteningly near-sighted, and frankly, I find that most of them just miss the point.
[not-so-important dispute with your particulars]:
The regular season will be meaningless in an 8-team playoff, particularly for as long as we employ pre-season polls (which is one of the primary differences between the hypothetical NCAA format and the pre-existing NFL format).
It is first necessary to establish that most college football fans possess a two-dimensional interest in the sport: they [first] follow their own school, and they [second] follow the title contenders at the top (Texas is lucky enough that the two overlap). So the typical Saturday of the college football fan is marked by a home-team viewing party, followed by one or two “Games of Century of the Week.” This has evolved as a way of eleviating the dulls of a poor campaign for your school (you supplement the excitement by living vicariously through other, more successful teams), as well as a way to share in a collective experience of college football.
In any given year, the number of teams with legitimate title aspirations wavers somewhere between 4 and 8. While the preseason polls may not accurately declare a #1 team, I’m willing to say they group the top 8 with consistent accuracy (this is largely because there are generally about 5 teams that have loaded rosters returning, and one of those 5 pretty much always wins the NC). So each season the preseason polls will anoint an “elite 8,” and I’m willing to bet that in most years, those 8 are the same teams standing the end, or at least 6 or 7 of them, This essentially means that as long as the pre-season top 8 teams finish with fewer than 3 losses, they make the cut of the tournament. Goodbye “Games of the Century of the Week,” and goodbye tough, non-conference scheduling. There is no longer any incentive to impress anyone (your returning roster does that for you in August); all that remains is the incentive not to accrue too many losses.
Take this season, for example, The title contenders this year were, by all accounts, USC, Florida, Oklahoma, Georgia, Penn St., and Texas. And whom were we left with in December? Those very teams (although you have to swap Texas Tech for Georgia, which doesn’t much dent my primary contention). The RRS? Meaningless, as the playoff format still requires that we must go through each other again later. Penn St./Ohio St.? Meaningless, as a loss doesn’t cost either team dearly. And so on, and so on.
It could be said, and has been stated here often, that non-contenders have the same season either way (an understandable point), however I argue that by shifting the emphasis to the post-season and taking the luster off the regular season, the non-contenders will be even more left-out, because, as is, even as a mediocre squad, they get to play on the overhyped, crazy Saturdays in Autumn, whereas with a tournament, by the time the hype arrives, they’re done playing. In the same way the BCS bowls have dulled other bowl games that used to be fun by means of a shift in emphasis (after all, the same argument could have been made that converting the Orange Bowl into the National Title game shouldn’t affect the non-contender Sun Bowl, but in my eyes, it has), a playoff will similarly dull the regular season for non-contenders with an equivalent emphasis shift. The more we decide that achieving a “Champion” is all that matters to us, the less fun the sport as a whole becomes, because we care less and less about non-contenders, and those games lose their intensity, even among the players. I think every step so far in the evolution of college football has suggested this.
[much-more-important ideological disputes]:
I’ve said this stuff before, but as I keep hearing the same arguments form playoff proponents, I am content hitting them back with my regular ammo. First, I have always believed that a tournament reshapes the landscape and demographic of college football. First, you will be swapping out Autumn madness for Winter madness, which means most important and memorable games go from being played in the crisp, Autumn air on enthusiastic, populated campuses to being played on empty campuses during Winter break. Blecht!!!
Worse, you invite a new demographic to dominate the marketing interests of the sport, and I am certain that nobody on this message board actually wants that. As is, college football is mostly guided by a tug-of-war between devoted fans, alumni, and the interests of the athletic departments. The moment we conceive a tournament that appeals to the masses (casual March Madness or Super Bowl fans), you will see a lowering of the common denominator and the influx of the very marketing that has made the NFL unwatchable to me. The reason the Super Bowl is such an overhyped, soap-operatic suckfest every year, and the reason the Dallas Cowboys commission boy-bands to play ridiculous half-time shows on Thanksgiving Day, is precisely because the sport has found that it is more profitable to market to mainstream, low-brow interests than it is to present the sport as it is seen through the eyes of its most loyal fans. What percentage of people watching the Super Bowl actually give a damn about football? Now consider what impact that has had on the presentation of the sport, and further, why it is you currently find yourself reading a COLLEGE football blog. This will happen. It is blatantly naive to think otherwise.
Most importantly, and you will forgive me if I speak plainly: the concept of a “Champion” is stupid. This is something that has entered 20th Century zeitgeist, and just won’t go away. GO AWAY!! College football was amazing when teams just played 10 or 11 games, each faced all of its regional rivals, and at the end of each day you either reveled that your alma mater was better than his alma mater, or you sucked up a loss and waited for next week. Sure, if you wanted, you could keep track of the all-time series with your rival, and if you had a particularly good year, you could celebrate (this is what bowl games used to be), and maybe, just maybe, as icing on the cake, the media might abstractly declare that your school had the best season of all.
This is how the National Title began, it was as ridiculous and abstract then as the USA Today high school National Championship is now.
But if something hangs around long enough, and people grow accustomed to it, it sinks in, and pretty soon you have an entire public just ravenous to change the entire culture of a sport, overturn 100 years of spectacle, just so they, too, can have a “Champion,” just like all the other lousy sports.
But it remains asinine. A “Champion” is not only a recent and trendy proposition, it is an illogical and hypocritical one. It chooses, somewhat arbitrarily, to value one win over another. The Patriots beat the Giants on the road in December last year, but then lose in the final minute of a game played at a neutral site. We then choose to declare the Patriot’s victory meaningless, and the Giants as Champions. Asinine. If you want this to hit closer to home, suppose we beat OU by double digits on the neutral turf of the Cotton Bowl, but then we face them again in the playoffs, this time on the road in Norman. They win the game in double overtime and advance. Both teams are 1-1 against each other. But we have chosen to value their home-field, 2OT victory more than our neutral field double-digit win. Asinine. Absolutely, staggeringly idiotic. But trend (and constantly repeated, mindless, majority opinion) has gotten to the fans of even college football.
[final thoughts]:
The truth of this issue is that we would all enjoy the game a lot more if we stopped caring so much about who wins this abstract “Championship.” Oddly, we actually control the meaning of these games, because, we as a society, choose (at least indirectly) which games to infuse with emotion or drama. This is not to say, however, that I am so naive as to think we can undo the last 30 years of evolution that have achieved little more than an ambition toward what I consider to be a fool’s task (I prefer the old system to the BCS). Indeed, theorists often cite the “Ratchet Effect,” to argue that we can move forward, but never backward. However, we can at least get a grip on reality, and choose a better forward direction.
by BrooklynHorn on Jan 8, 2009 2:50 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Disagree
On your regular season comments: Read carefully what I said. You argument is an argument that the people who would create the tournament would do so in a poor way as to make the regular season meaningless. I already conceded this objection, but it does not foreclose the possibility that a better system (well-thought out playoff) for crowning a champion exists.
On the demographics: This strikes me as a highly romantic view of what college football is. Or a nostalgic longing for what it was. Have you been watching the BCS games? On Fox Television? What, exactly, about the status quo fits with what you describe? Our sport sold out a long time ago. Might as well have an exciting playoff, while we’re at it.
On Autumn madness: Again, you’re really arguing against a poorly conceived playoff. To the extent that’s the one they’d create, I’m with you — not worth it. In the abstract, hoping for a well-conceived one is far from myopic/illogical/whatever.
On the ‘champion’ stuff: I don’t have any problem with your view, but I find it a little bit silly that you so forcefully want to say that it’s wild and unthinkable a fan/group of fans could want to inject “fun end-of-year tournament” into the meaning of the games. What’s any less arbitrary about the “old” meaning? Why is my preference hypocritical and illogical, and yours Good?
--PB--
by Peter Bean on Jan 8, 2009 3:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That Fox, BCS has undermined CF tradition is indisuputable, PB
as you yourself, at least implicitly, acknowledge in your main post, a playoff may go even further in this direction.
marshalld
by duras on Jan 8, 2009 3:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
response
1) my first argument, as I labeled, is not so important, but is mostly contingent upon my later arguments that the concept of a “Champion” is irrational, so why abduct the entire system for such a useless pursuit?
Although you have somewhat already conceded this, I would like to say this about it: If we know who the 5 or so legitimate contenders are, then we are simply waiting all throughout Fall for the postseason tournament to begin so they can finally play one another. In which case, why play the regular season at all? Is it so we can see if one of them falls? That is akin to watching an upset in the NCAA tournament, exciting, but it weakens the field, and thus the integrity of the position any team takes in declaring itself the Champion at the end of the tournament.
Strangely, as much as I hate the concept of a Champion, at least with the BCS, college football has done something quite ingenious: If we know preseason who the 5 most likely contenders are, then we are just waiting until a post-season playoff for the real drama to begin. What the BCS has done, is taken those 5 contenders and pitted them against each other, not on the field, but in a points system, which has the advantage of retaining all 5 participants throughout the season, spreading their competition from a measly 3 weeks to an entire 3 months, and allowing a trickle effect of intensity to the non-contender games, as every Saturday in Autumn has that “College Gameday” hype. But again, I’m not in favor of such emphasis of a Champion, I only point out that the BCS is a more clever and complex system that suits more needs than does a playoff.
2) There is nothing Romantic about my view of college football currently. I am a pragmatist in my behavior (although not in my beliefs), and although I am still young, I gave up most of the sports I adored years ago because of the atrocious culture they contemporaneously have spawned (in other words, I’m not some old fart who hungers for the good old days). College football is not there yet, if it were, I wouldn’t watch it either. But a playoff will certainly get it there. Again, there is a reason you write blog about the Longhorns, not about the Steelers.
Yes, the BCS games suck, but the games in October don’t. I am left to believe that the prevalence of your ideology will ruin both. I, too, think you are being silly for not seeing this.
by BrooklynHorn on Jan 8, 2009 3:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree to disagree
I appreciate your concerns, and you make your points exceptionally well, but we just fundamentally disagree on a few key premises. Which is fine.
I happen not to think that the champion-centric-ness (sorry) of a playoffs is incompatible with the values you’re concerned will be destroyed. (Or, more precisely, I think the sport long, LONG ago went past a point of no return such that I, too, feel like I’m actually just being a pragmatist here.) You happen to think implementing a playoffs would damage those values.
Again, that’s fine. I appreciate the counter-perspective.
--PB--
by Peter Bean on Jan 8, 2009 4:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Were I to attack my own argument
I would argue that evolution rarely turns on a dime, and never stops entirely. So it is unlikely that college football will continue to exclude itself from the ranks of obnoxious, over-marketed sports with misplaced priorities.
With respect to those arguing against me, as incendiary as this statement will be, it always seems that the playoff proponent argument rides an irrational wave of momentum, as I said earlier, a zeitgeist, and those caught up in it rarely stop to question it. Such stubbornness, while seemingly blind to alternative perspective, is a human characteristic that probably does more good than harm, in a big-picture, societal-evolutionary sense, but can be particularly grating at the individual level.
I would almost prefer playoff-proponents simply admit that they want to follow the spirit of the times, regardless of what will actually happen. Instead, I am left to sift through hollow arguments and continue my position as a dissenter with prescient futility.
by BrooklynHorn on Jan 8, 2009 4:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You give me a lot of credit...
Not to throw gas on the fire, but…. really?
The problem is that I’m robotically myopic? And haven’t given this any thought?
--PB--
by Peter Bean on Jan 8, 2009 4:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not speaking of you specifically
aimed at the debate in general.
My first premise, on which we will disagree, is that most playoff-proponents are simply reacting to the overwhelming cultural phenomenon and media onslaught that there SHOULD be a playoff, because that is the way of things, sport must be about “champions,” and all other sports have playoff-systems, etc., etc. Particularly, my generation has been reared in this environment, and takes it completely for granted.
This leads to a debate filled with participants whose goal is confirming a belief rather than testing it. In other words, people believe what they want to believe. There’s nothing new here, as this is true with most heated issues.
I’m in a position in which I fully understand that a playoff is inevitable, the majority wants it, as does our new president; it will happen within our lifetime. I want to believe then, that a playoff will not turn the college game into the NFL, and yet, still, every argument in favor of one diametrically opposes everything I understand from experience and logic, and seems to my better instincts to be a thin rationalization of an affirmation to an unquestioned majority.
Believe it or not, when I was in high school, I desperately wanted a playoff as well.
by BrooklynHorn on Jan 8, 2009 4:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
And perhaps this summer we can spend some downtime working more thoroughly through this. I think there are very Not Thin reasons for supporting a playoff, and which speak more to your concerns than does the post above, which is more a quick and dirty summary.
Until then… I appreciate the counter-perspective.
--PB--
by Peter Bean on Jan 8, 2009 5:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No
Just venting frustration at the tired arguments I’m used to hearing on this subject. This topic is by far my biggest button.
One final word on my egomaniacal rant, here. There is a ton of empirical evidence that a playoff system, and a restructuring of the sport, will cause it to resemble the other sports that have adopted similar formats (namely, the evolution of all of those other sports). And if you are a big fan of the NFL and the NBA, fine, just wait a few years and you will get your wish, as college football will eventually come to resemble those sports.
But I know a lot of readers of this blog believe there to be something different about college football. There’s something about this sport we love that distinguishes it from other games, something that causes us to spend all day on this blog and shun close friends and relatives on Saturdays. Were I to note this in another context, most readers would jump on this and agree. But because my opponents can see where I am going with this, and because they disagree with my conclusion, they are hesitant to concede this point. But its true, we love this particular game more than any other, and we see it as unique to all other sports.
What makes any of you think that, by making this game more closely resemble those others, and by structuring to carry the same values and marketing demographics as those others, that college football will retain its uniqueness? It seems so blatantly ridiculous to believe so.
by BrooklynHorn on Jan 8, 2009 6:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Couple things.
1. We can poll the readers of this blog somewhat accurately and I’d predict that at least a simple majority favor a playoff.
2. I love me. I love me because I’m a unique snowflake. I love the arms I have. They are good arms. I type quite fast with them. Were I given the opportunity to replace one of my arms for a bionic replica that was identical in how it looked without any negative consequences whatsoever and with the added benefit that it did everything I can do currently though much, much better, I wouldn’t refuse the bionic arm merely because I should wonder that “by making this” arm “more lcosely resemble those others” of more capable persons I would lose something of value. (I might refuse the bionic arm for other reasons, though.)
I don’t even know if that analogy makes sense. In simpler terms: There is enough wonderful and unique and wonderfully unique about CFB that altering aspects of the game will not simply make it identical to the leagues that share its attributes. When the NFL adopted the two-point conversion years after CFB did, that didn’t make the two sports identical. Adding a playoff to the FBS isn’t going to make it look more like College Basketball or the NBA or even the NFL. This is especially clear when one considers why it is that people love CFB CURRENTLY… and it’s not the BCS. Very few people were drawn to CFB because of the BCS system in use now and I doubt even in the days when you started watching, what DROVE you to CFB was the system in place used to determine the champion. More likely, the things that make us love CFB are the mechanics of the game (that was an awesome hit!) the gameday experience (I’m so drunk!) the comraderie it creates betwixt likeminded fans (oh my gosh I love Texas Tech as well let’s sleep together OR I agree, a playoff is the better system than the BCS let us drink together and discuss that OR I disagree, I think a playoff is the better system, let us drink together and discuss that) that it is televised (did you catch the game?) or some combination of all these things plus many more. It shouldn’t be enough to say “You love a unique thing and therefore it is immutable, for to change it nececssarily is to change it from what you love.” If that’s true that necessarily eliminates the possibility for betterment in the CFB game, and that’s far more dreary a prospect for the sport we both love than any bogeymen presented by playoffs or not playoffs or BCS or not-BCS. I love CFB and hate the current system used to determine a champion. I’m not worried about waking up tomorrow and not feeling great about a playoff system since so much of what I love about CFB is totally and completely independent how it crowns a champion.
by Skin Patrol on Jan 8, 2009 6:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Now you're just being ridiculous
Not the part about the snowflakes, which doesn’t deserve a response (I’m aware of the irony in responding to something by stating it doesn’t deserve a response, so don’t bother pointing that out).
I find more ridiculous your comparison of a simple rule tweak to a complete restructuring of a sport. Its just not serious.
Arguing for a playoff is like arguing for more intrusive television coverage. Originally, games were just played, and television companies worked around the game in order to broadcast it. Now television affects when the games are played, when times-out are taken, etc., and college football works around the television coverage. I’m sure you will gladly tell me that this is all part of the evolving game, as well, but how many scathing complaints were issued on the Fiesta Bowl Game Thread about the inordinant amount of commercials Fox chose to air, interrupting the flow of the game?
Playoffs are analogous. Games were once simply played, and the media picked up on it and chose to vote for which team they think is best. Now that runaway concept is completely going to restructure the sport.
by BrooklynHorn on Jan 8, 2009 6:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You're very persuasive
And on an emotional level, I see eye to eye with your thesis. Unfortunately, I think the Rubicon was crossed with the initial attempt to force a matchup between 1 and 2, crowning am “objective Champion.” I lament the passing of the old system, but I don’t think the current BCS has any virtue over a playoff. The damage is already done. Which way forward?
by rezboscace on Jan 8, 2009 7:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm apparently not persuasive at all
I’ve given roughly 25% of my argument against a playoff on this thread, whereas I’ve exhaustively given my entire argument to dozens of playoff proponents in my lifetime, and in those efforts I have not convinced a single soul of anything.
Next I’ll get to work on that abortion debate, and then that Creation/Evolution thing. ; )
by BrooklynHorn on Jan 9, 2009 12:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Comparison is unnecessary. If your position is that “good things shouldn’t change” my, and many others’, response is simply: Why not? That something is good isn’t an argument against improving it. We can separate the good aspects of CFB from the bad ones and move towards improvement, and it is nearly universally recognized (by fans) that the BCS system is one of the bad aspects of it. I don’t think that’s ridiculous at all.
If arguing for playoffs is like arguing for more intrusive television coverage, you’ve got me as well. Similarly, if arguing for playoffs is like arguing for killing puppies, I concede. Where in anything I’ve said have I suggested that intrusive television coverage is good for the game, is something I simply accept as “part of the evolving game”? Have I ever, at any point on this message board or anywhere else, stated that intrusive television coverage is something I appreciate?
We all hate intrusive television coverage. What does that have to do with a playoff? Maybe I don’t like the emerging College review system. Maybe I don’t like the emerging BCS system. Maybe I don’t like the new crop of broadcasters. Surely we can discuss all these things independently of one another? What possible relationship does a potential playoff have with intrusive television coverage? Indeed, you lament the evolving intrusion of television coverage… has that been the result of a CFB playoffs that doesn’t exist?
There are many reasons to criticize a playoff, but that it will perpetuate the commercialization of CFB probably isn’t one of them. For one thing, that trend exists independent a playoff, right?
by Skin Patrol on Jan 9, 2009 10:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
At this point
anything I write will be an instance of repeating myself. The clear and apparent response to everything you are asking is already in what I have written. You are either choosing not to read my posts thoroughly, or you are not understanding them, or you are choosing to be an ass.
Your seeming unfamiliarity with the argumentative strategy of analogy (you know, a comparison of circumstances or ideas that are united not by their literal facts and premises but by their applicable dynamics or the relationships between them) suggests the latter, however my vast experience in arguing against typical playoff advocates suggests the former.
by BrooklynHorn on Jan 9, 2009 12:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Be fair, Brooklyn Horn, there’s a massive amount of text on this and we’re having side bar discussions on top of sidebar discussions. I am telling you: I do not think the commercialization of sports is a good thing. I am also unwilling to grant your position that playoffs increase the commercialization of sports. The response to that argument is that commercialization has happened even where there are no playoffs… like College Football. Sports, over time, have commercialized and it is a gross oversimplification to say that the NFL commercialized because it happens to have a playoff. So what explains the BCS’ commercialization, then, absent a playoff?
If you want to have discussions about a subject on which we’ve both written hundreds, thousands of words, we’re both doing each other a favor by narrowing those discussions. I can’t respond to your entire original post without writing a magnum opus. I CAN respond to the following arguments or positions:
1. Commercialization of sports is bad and playoffs increases the commercialization of sports.
2. CFB is good because it is unique, and creating a playoff destroys the uniqueness of CFB and will tend to make it resemble the NBA and the NFL.
If your blanket response is that “the clear and apparent response to everything you are asking is already in what I have written” that may be, but I’m suggesting what you’ve written is either off point or, where it is on point, is pretty insufficient. Under your second heading your main, loud criticism of a playoffs is that it is… appealing?
The moment we conceive a tournament that appeals to the masses (casual March Madness or Super Bowl fans), you will see a lowering of the common denominator and the influx of the very marketing that has made the NFL unwatchable to me.
I enjoy watching March Madness with my girlfriend, even though she doesn’t care nearly as much about College Basketball as I do. I enjoy the bracketology engaged mostly with people who don’t care until the month of March. Most of my discussions on things like CFB happen between myself and others who don’t have PH.Ds in Footbology and just want to sit around shooting the shit and enjoying ourselves over a frivolous activity. Neat message board this is here, I like it, but that doesn’t mean this is the END GAME of all fanness, ever, for the rest of history. (By the way, implicit in your criticism of the NFL game is that message boards like the one we’re arguing on can’t exist in a game where Backstreet Boys play at halftime… so what the fuck are all these NFL blogs doing on SB Nation? Does intelligent football discussion happen in CFB because the OU and Florida bands played at halftime and not Britney Spears?) Related note, because you hold online message boards as such an important outlet for those of us who hate the commercialization of sports… what do you think this blog is? What is SB Nation? Sure, commercialization of sports really sucks, nobody likes TV timeouts, but everyone loves to watch televised football games. It turns out you can’t really have the one without the other. Similarly, if you want to sit around having discussions about sports logging in from your computer to someone else’s website, using someone else’s software and technology, funding must exist. I don’t like reading about Tyson’s Anytizers anymore than you do, but without that advertisement at the top of this website, this discussion doesn’t happen. Back in the good old days, when football was really just about the sports and the kids and the game and all that good stuff, nobody got to watch. It was enjoyed by: no one, because I can’t attend Texas Tech games when I’m living in Austin but once every two years. We can have a pure sport or a watched one but not both, apparently, and that’s the reality that is commercialization. It has far less to do with playoffs than it does, generally, with increasing the access people have to the things they love. In a sad and unfortunate way, TV timeouts, rule changes to speed up games, Tyson’s advertisements, are those things that make it possible for us to enjoy the sport of CFB. It would be a neat world where some altruistic group of die hard CFB fans funded everything we enjoy about the sport without subjecting us to the things we hate listed above, but that world doesn’t exist. You participated in the commercialization, because UT played in the TOSTITOS fiesta bowl.
My take of your big picture arguments are: a) You don’t like the idea of a championships. b) You think a playoff will make the sport of CFB more closely resemble the NFL and thus will lead to an increase in commercialization that you find deplorable combined with an influx of fans you have pretty obvious contempt for, notably people who look more like my girlfriend than they do like you or I. We can discuss a) but it would be pointless, you’re defending a system that loves the idea of a championship, because that’s what was on TV last night, yea? Or we can talk about b), but first you’ll need to explain why CFB has tended towards commercialization ANYWAYS in spite of NOT having a playoff.
I feel like I have to repeat myself too, so I appreciate your frustration. But if you think CFB is better than other sports because it’s less popular… you’re just wrong! If you think the reason I’m on a CFB message board is because the sanctity of the BCS system or its predecessor… you’re just wrong! If you think that intrusive television coverage and the increased commercialization of sports is the result of playoffs, I think you’re also probably wrong. I think that is a gross oversimplification of some other cultural force and there’s evidence I’m right because, even absent a playoff, increased commercialization happens.
My final thoughts, because there’s no need to spend much more time on this if your responses are going to increasingly be “I already said that nah nah nah nah!” or “you are choosing to be an ass”: Change is not always bad. CFB will remain unique even with a playoff. The sport you now enjoy and love was radically different from the one that existed at some point prior to your being a fan… many changes had to happen to get where we’re at, and your entire position is that where we’re at is just fine. If the result of a playoff is that the sport increases in popularity… good. Sports don’t exist to please a person (you) but rather to please people, as they should.
by Skin Patrol on Jan 9, 2009 2:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You have wasted an awful lot of words at this point
not responding directly to my arguments, rather pushing your preconceived and unmovable agenda.
The problem with this discourse is that I can see your point of view clearly (I used to share it, in fact), but it is evident that you do not understand mine. Until you thoroughly read and digest my comments, we shall keep going in circles. You have now written hundreds of words that have little function in addressing my concerns, but do betray your inability to see a different vantage point on this issue. You are exactly the type of myopic citizen to which I earlier referred, the mysteriously impassioned conformist, who waits to talk instead of listening.
Allow me to indulge in your brand of argumentation, and offer a wild, off-topic, personal analogy to this discussion. When I was 12 years old, I used to wear an embarrassing amount of Nike apparel. Nike shirts, Nike shoes, Nike shorts, even Nike socks. At the time, I did it because I was caught up in the image of it, I associated it with athletics, my preferred sports stars, and most of the kids at my school who closely mirrored my demographic were all wearing it. But as I got older, and gained experience, became educated, reflected upon the motivations of peoples and the values that are latent and exposed in many cultural issues and phenomena, I came to understand marketing, branding, corporate politics, etc. I’m not at all preaching about the practices of the Nike Corporation, what I’m saying is that I began to view the habits of teenagers from a different perspective.
Now, before I lose you, as you begin to believe I am comparing you to a 12 year old, my point is this. Most educated adults understand the branding motivations behind Nike apparel, which leaves two types of adults who still wear it. There are those who fully appreciate and understand the true reason and values for which the apparel exists, but don’t bother themselves with the politics, because, after all, they need to wear something when they work out ,and Nike fits them best, and hey, that swoosh is cooler than Reebok’s logo. And then there are those who are completely oblivious to the actuality of Nike pursuing them as a target demographic, and have no idea why they ever wore it in the first place. The latter have not even been awakened to fact that they have formed a habit, largely involuntarily, and simply through marketing and conformity.
It is not arrogant of me to assume that I can easily determine the difference through even casual conversation.
And that is how (quite unfortunately) I feel about this issue. It is evident to me when someone is simply taking a playoff for granted, and further, is not seeing that a playoff is not in fact an inevitability, but one of many directions toward which a sport may evolve.
Were I to see that you fully understand this concept through your arguments, then our discourse would open up a bit, but it is apparent to me that you do not. You take a playoff, and an objectively measured post-season champion, as an inherent inevitability in sport. Sorry if I’m being a dick, but I am extremely tired of having this same conversation with people who have different faces, but ultimately the same ridiculous, regurgitated, unimaginative arguments.
by BrooklynHorn on Jan 9, 2009 3:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It is not as if your position is that complicated. Merely restating over and over again that I obviously “do not understand” you. I understand you. I read all your points. I get what it is you think playoffs are about, what you find wrong with playoffs, and why you think we should refrain from having them. You aren’t the first person to present any of the ideas anywhere in this thread to me.
Then you accuse me of missing the point while talking about “inevitability” which has fuckhole to do with anything I’ve said. I do not take playoff as an inevitability, I take it as a goal I want the sport to reach but am worried it won’t. Whether you can see it or not, I genuinely want a playoff system.
I am trying to address substantive arguments you’ve made. I do so by asking you questions, such as: If commercialization has happened to CFB in spite of no playoffs, why do you think playoffs will increase commercialization? To which you respond I just don’t get it, I’m bad at analogies, bla bla bla bla bullshit over and over again. It is exhausting and is working, I may stop bothering.
Rather than addressing anything I say, though, you simply dismiss me as the kind of person who is beneath you, who isn’t worthy of discussing the topic. I’m just another guy who takes “a playoff, and an objectively measured post-season champion, as an inherent inevitability in sport.” No, I don’t. We can have sports with champions or we can have sports without champions. You happen to like a sport that has a champion. I am suggesting that we decide on a different method of determining that champion, a largely uncontroversial one enjoyed universally by other sports. And I don’t think it is thus enjoyed because of “inevitability” but because it is a rather efficient means of doing so.
You think CFB should not have a champion. I don’t give a shit about that, because it’s just a point of view, which you are entitled. Your
reasoning
for that end is what is so objectionable, because it’s totally bonkers, and boring, a good example of which was found in your final thoughts:
The truth of this issue is that we would all enjoy the game a lot more if we stopped caring so much about who wins this abstract "Championship."
So much is wrong in this simple statement. One: Championship is not abstract, “the best team” is the abstract concept. Championships can be decided in all sorts of non-abstract ways, like the flip of a coin. That’s not even that big a deal, though. I’m more concerned with your preachy bullshit. If only the rest of us were so wise as to not care about a champion, we’d enjoy the sport more. And then I ask: Why? To which you haven’t answered anywhere above. Again, you speak best for yourself:
College football was amazing when teams just played 10 or 11 games, each faced all of its regional rivals, and at the end of each day you either reveled that your alma mater was better than his alma mater, or you sucked up a loss and waited for next week. Sure, if you wanted, you could keep track of the all-time series with your rival, and if you had a particularly good year, you could celebrate (this is what bowl games used to be), and maybe, just maybe, as icing on the cake, the media might abstractly declare that your school had the best season of all.
Where is the answer to the question WHY here, Brooklyn? Oh, CFB used to be amazing? Ok. It doesn’t necessarily sound very amazing from the way you’ve described it. Is it possible that you and I simply have a value disagreement about what makes for an amazing CFB season? Contained in the word “amazing” is there some complex argument for your point of view? Or is that just you subjectively saying “This is what I happen to like.”
Back to square one, and you’ve already admitted this so I’m not telling you anything new… if we’re here to discuss the merits of a playoff system vs. a non-playoff system of the kind you prefer, pre-BCS, then for that discussion to include any back and forth, you have to provide some basis or justification for your point of view that isn’t exclusively and only what you happen to like. You at least attempt to do that when discussing things like the Super Bowl or commercialization of sports, but you don’t even come close when preaching at us why championship is an abstract concept, man, just too deep and unnecessary and the world would be better off if we just tuned that concept out, dude. Maybe the reason you haven’t compelled anyone to your point of view is because you offer absolutely nothing in your long attack on playoffs that could possibly convince anyone who doesn’t already share your subjective view of the value of sports.
This is my final attempt at an analogy. There probably exists a person who thinks the concept of “winning” or keeping score is wrong. I’m not that person. Were they to try and convince me that CFB scores should not be kept during games, they would have to do better than to say “Remember when we were kids how much fun it was when we didn’t keep score?” Nostalgia isn’t a reason. To form a COMPELLING argument they’d have to talk about the social ills of competition and perhaps some empirically provable negative results from it. They’d have to argue that competition hurts self esteem because there is an inevitable loser. In other words, they’d have to provide REASONS. You’ve got some, I think they’re all without merit personally, but for the most part your rants are emotional appeals. You can only win supporters with emotional appeals. And when these emotional appeals don’t work, you chicken-shit proclaim that we just don’t get it, ie:
But I know a lot of readers of this blog believe there to be something different about college football. There’s something about this sport we love that distinguishes it from other games, something that causes us to spend all day on this blog and shun close friends and relatives on Saturdays. Were I to note this in another context, most readers would jump on this and agree. But because my opponents can see where I am going with this, and because they disagree with my conclusion, they are hesitant to concede this point. But its true, we love this particular game more than any other, and we see it as unique to all other sports.
Maybe the reason your opponents don’t concede the point is because there’s nothing compelling about your point? We can agree that a playoffs will make CFB look more like the NFL without also agreeing that this is a bad thing for CFB. Whatever you have to say about it, the NFL and CFB have a lot more in common with each other than does CFB and, say, World Cup Soccer, which doesn’t happen to have a playoff of the sort in either NFL or CFB. People can concede that playoffs makes CFB less unique, but still disagree with you that that necessarily makes CFB worse.
You’ve admitted that response to your positions is near-unanimous; that you’re mixed up according to the different faces. Maybe you are mixed up? Maybe your arguments aren’t compelling, couldn’t possibly be? You can chalk Skin Patrol just not getting it to me being stupid, but does that mean every single person you’ve engaged on this subject is stupid? Are you really the only person you’ve ever discussed this subject with who gets it? If so, you need to rethink a) your approach, or b) whether or not you should even be having this discussion at all. It must be terribly depressing and is obviously frustrating for you.
Your next response, if there is one, hopefully will not be “you just don’t get it” because that’s all you’ve said for the past 3-4 posts. You accused me of wasting an awful lot of words at this point… what would you be doing by repeating yourself? I have raised what I believe to be substantive questions and you don’t see the need to answer them, because I simply haven’t understood you, fine. If that’s your position, we don’t have anything to talk about. If anyone bothered to read our back-and-forth, they can determine for themselves whether or not I’ve gotten it. Based on the overwhelmingly disagreeing response to your original post, and on your own account of having to frustratingly deal with people who constantly disagree with you, I would suggest that you’re the one who isn’t getting it.
by Skin Patrol on Jan 9, 2009 4:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's fine
I’ll allow you the last word
by BrooklynHorn on Jan 10, 2009 1:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
However...
“Goodbye tough non-conference sheduling?” Haven’t you noticed that went by the wayside in the present system when a single loss can keep you out of the MNC? And the RRS not meaning much? Apparently it didn’t mean much this year either. Finally if you argue that only the top 8 ranked teams in the pre-season poll have any reasonable chance of making an 8-team playoff, then by the same reasoning only those 8 teams have a shot at the MNC game in the current system.
"Only angry people win football games." --DKR
by OBdoc on Jan 8, 2009 3:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
You typed my response before I could.
by UT_BKC on Jan 8, 2009 3:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I know its a long post
I apologize for that, it is why I tried to organize it in sections. But you have missed my point. I am arguing that the RRS used to mean more before the concept of a Champion became so all-consuming. Every step we take in orienting the sport around the Champion (which a playoff will certainly accomplish), the game loses even more meaning.
Again, I’m not advocating we go back; that would be impossible. I am saying lets not go further down this path.
by BrooklynHorn on Jan 8, 2009 3:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How, exactly, do we measure
"meaningful"ness between generations of fans? I’ve been to the Cotton Bowl for the RRS in the BCS era and it appeared fairly meaningful both to me and the fans of UT and OU who were there cheering for their teams. What is it you mean the game “meant” more? Were fans more involved in the past? Were people more emotionally invested (that’s hard to imagine)?
Is the Yankees-Red Sox rivalry less because that sport has a playoff? What about when playoffs create (Lakers Celtics maybe?) or bolster existing rivalries (Redskins-Cowboys)?
I think we need to define what it is for a game “to mean more” at one point in time than at another.
by Skin Patrol on Jan 8, 2009 3:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Can't read this right now as I really have work to do and want
to get out of here before 6:30, but based on prior experience I fairly sure I agree either partially or fully with many sentiments expressed herein.
marshalld
by duras on Jan 8, 2009 3:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Much here...
I’ll try to be concise.
First, I don’t think you’ve accurately depicted the CFB landscape. Primarily I think you have tried to be too narrow. Is it the case that people follow their own team first and then follow the games of really super important cool awesome teams like Texas and Georgia? Well, I watched more Big XII games this year than I did Georgia or LSU or Alabama games. I watched A&M more than I watched USC. I watched Baylor, gasp, more than I watched Penn State (which is to say not at all). There are a lot of ways that people arrive at their viewing schedule and, as you granted, the primary has nothing to do with the strength of the school’s athletic department. The secondary, per your telling, is precisely that and I happily disagree. People might watch their parents’ alma mater, or conference games of the school they attend, or games they have a betting interest in, or games involving interesting characters or story lines or that happen to fall on Thursday nights so on and so forth. Or games between local teams neither of which the viewer has any other interest in following besides geography. The highest rated game of the century of the year of the week aren’t higher rated than all the rest of the televised games combined.
I don’t think that’s necessary to your position, but you do. If it is, I’m not convinced you’re correct.
Regarding games of the century of the week, teams schedule their non-cons well in advance. And teams have an interest in seating fans in stands independent the national championship picture, namely they want to sell out games. That’s true even of the UT’s of the world that maybe have fewer people sitting about during UT-Rice. If the concern is that Florida will schedule games with Citadel (or that they won’t schedule one against Florida State? Yea right) or Oklahoma will schedule games with Chatanooga then… playoffs don’t affect that.
My rambling point is I think the concern is overstated. One, the jig is already up, the 8 teams you’ve described already have a HUGE incentive not to schedule tough non-con games. Two, you might have it precisely backwards, that the current system creates larger disincentives than a playoff system would for scheduling tough non-cons. Because, as you point out, teams only need to stave off 4 losses in a playoff system but only get a shot at the national championship if they survive with 1-2 losses, right? Wouldn’t it stand to reason that teams are MORE likely to schedule tough non-con games if they can make it to a national championship in spite of a loss? FINALLY AND MOST IMPORTANTLY you ignore that for those 8 teams they don’t “escape” tough non-conference schedules. Suppose they do make the playoffs… who do they play? Chatanooga? No, they play a damn near unbeatable playoff quality opponent and the national champion will necessarily have played one of the if not the toughest “non-conference” schedule in the entire league. In simpler terms, the Game of the Century of the Year of hte Week doesn’t disappear, it just moves to the end of the season. Some teams play their non-cons at the end of the season already.
The RRS? Meaningless, as the playoff format still requires that we must go through each other again later. Penn St./Ohio St.? Meaningless, as a loss doesn’t cost either team dearly. And so on, and so on.
I disagree substantively. If Texas lost the RRS I don’t think they DO finish in the top 8 nationally in the rankings. But even assuming I’m wrong, their road is much tougher to a national championship in virtue of that loss. There’s even less argument regarding Penn St. and Ohio St., as the game was extremely meaningful for both; the loser of that game would essentially be out of an 8 team playoff. Indeed, Ohio State lost and… they wouldn’t have made it into an 8 team playoff in virtue of that.
Back to the RRS… my impression from Texas fans was that it didn’t matter UNDER THE CURRENT SYSTEM and, furthermore, is the RRS “meaningless” if it fails to predict the Big XII or National Champion on any given year? Because I’ve always assumed that the import of the game to Texas fans has more to do with their seething hatred of hte opponent and less to do with their mental assurance that hte game will predict champions. In any event, even if you’re right, if in a good and proper world the RRS predicts something “meaningful” like a NC or a Conference champion or anything else, doesn’t that force tens of other Big XII games that don’t involve Texas or OU towards "meaningless"ness? It almost sounds like you’re saying that a playoff would make the RRS meaningless because it is a more meaningful regular season game right now than… other currently meaningless regular season games? I don’t think Texas Tech v. A&M or Texas Tech v. OU or OU v. OSU was this year or would ever be meaningless. (NOTE: That’s not me comparing rivalries, either, because UT OU and OU OSU are both miles ahead of any “rivalry” Tech allegedly has, it’s just me pointing out that meaningful games don’t HAVE to be rivalry games though it’s nice when they are. Texas fans were rooting for Baylor strongly at the end of this season, yes?)
I disagree with the idea that non-contenders have more to gain from the current system than from a playoff. Let’s ask one: Skin Patrol, what says you about BCS vs. Playoffs? I’m glad you asked, Skin Patrol. I feel that Playoffs are the far better system because, although my poor Red Raiders are non-contenders for the NC or BCS, they have come close at times to making the final cut for a playoff (in 2008, for instance) and thus that’s what I peg my current hopes and dreams on. I tend to think Utah and Boise State feel the same way, because their NC hopes necessarily run through a playoff as well, which they’d participate in somewhat frequently.
The people who have the most to gain from the current system are the ones who benefit the most, IE: University of Texas and their ilk, Florida, Oklahoma, Georgia, Michigan (not much longer), USC, so on and so forth. The teams that win National Championships are overwhelmingly the teams who have won them in the past, in most instances the recent past (see: Florida or Oklahoma this year).
What non-contenders might do is start scheduling the toughest non-con possible, hoping for a 2 or 1 loss season and then sneaking into a playoff. That would certainly make the overall CFB season more interesting and THEIR seasons more interesting an, as you pointed out, they have nothing to lose.
In any event, whatever may be the case about what non-contenders want, let’s not let UT fans speak for them. They, non contenders, represent the majority of CFB fans (as most students didn’t go to the 10-12 schools that will cycle through national championships) and the majority repeatedly speaks in favor of a playoff. I support finding out, though. Let’s ask the Hawaii’s of the world, the Utah’s of the world, the Iowa State’s of the world, the Nevada’s of the world, the Vanderbilt’s of the world, the Baylor’s of the world, what is it that THEY want, and if THEY want a playoff, that would tend to deflate your suggestion that a playoff system does them damage. They, afterall, would know best.
I’ll touch on the rest later as this isn’t concise. You bring up many excellent points and I want to give them all the full attention they deserve. I enjoyed reading what you had to say but respectfully disagree with your position, albeit in a rambling and likely incoherent manner.
by Skin Patrol on Jan 8, 2009 3:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I thank you for the well-thought-out post
unfortunately, you spent all of it on my first point, which I admitted wasn’t important to my position. I still disagree with everything you have written, as is the case when liberal and conservative economists will disagree over the same set of data.
I think an 8-team playoff still weakens the value of the regular season and scheduling. In short, the water-cooler effect of big Saturday night games is still more valuable to the sport than a playoff, it gets high ratings from a base of rabid college fans. I still don’t know too many non-football fans who watch those games. Instead of mainstream appeal, you get the whole of the college football world to come together to boost the ratings – but the Superbowl and March Madness are another story. And I still think the Peach and Cotton Bowls were much more fun 12 years ago, before they were excluded from the process of choosing a “Champion,” and the same thing will happen to the regular season when it is also excluded from the process of choosing a “Champion.” If you feel the Cotton Bowl is just as good today, I would suggest you are in the minority.
But again, my main point is that the further we go down the path of orienting the sport around a “Champion,” the worse the sport becomes.
by BrooklynHorn on Jan 8, 2009 4:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You think an 8-team playoff weakens value of regular season and causes weaker scheduling. That’s fine, on this we disagree. It would help me to undestand your position, though, if you would give me some metric on what “valuable to the sport” means. Many people think playoff games are valuable, indeed they routinely receive the highest ratings, are written about more than regular season games, talked about more, etc. If I understood your valuation of “valuable to the sport” I could measure “water-cooler effect of Big Saturday night game” against “playoff” using the same metric. As it stands, your reasoning appears to me — and I apologize if I’m simplifying your position — that playoffs are bad because they devalue big Saturday night games (would playoffs be played on nights besides Saturdays and discussed at places besides water coolers, I wonder?). I assure that at the water coolers I frequent, playoffs are discussed heavily. If the metric is: those things that get “high ratings from a base of rabid college fans” every single one of the rabid college fans I know support a playoff. Many of them support playoffs in other sports. Dick Vital loves March Madness, and he’s a “rabid college fan”. If we get into a popularity argument, then your side is without merit, because BCS is not fan-driven. There might be many things to commend about the current system, or the old system, but that it plays well with fans is not one of them.
And I still think the Peach and Cotton Bowls were much more fun 12 years ago, before they were excluded from the process of choosing a "Champion," and the same thing will happen to the regular season when it is also excluded from the process of choosing a "Champion."
Technically speaking, all the bowls are currently precluded from the process of choosing a champion. Neither the Rose Bowl nor the Fiesta Bowl nor the Orange Bowl nor the Sugar Bowl will decide the National Champion in 2008.
I believe the last national champion to play in the cotton bowl was, I believe, Notre Dame more than 12 years ago. Many more than 12 years ago. Anyways, it’s not really fair for me to argue about what has or has not happened to the "fun"ness of the Cotton Bowl 12 years ago or more than 12 years ago… because I was 14 and didn’t care. I’ll just have to take your word for it. But I do have to ask… 12 years ago BYU beat Kansas State in the Cotton Bowl. What was your viewing interest in that game? In ’96 Colorado beat Oregon. What was your viewing interest in that game? In 1995 USC destroyed Texas Tech… what was your viewing interest in that game? (Was Texas Tech playing for a National Championship? Was USC?)
I think the real disagreement between us is we each have a subjective view of “worse”. If we can agree on some metric to measure what is better or worse for the sport, let’s try and do so. I’d introduce a few, ratings, fan interest, legitimacy in the eyes of the fan, etc. that of course all favor my position. I am still not sure what your metric would be as it sounds more philosophical and old-fashioned kind of like getting my grandfather (not suggesting you’re a geriatric at all) to explain why the depression was probably less fun than he seems to remember way back in them god old days.
Down to basics here… What is your concern if the regular season is “devalued”? Do you think people will stop watching or talking about it? Fewer people will care? Because I think those concerns are pretty easily disproven empirically if not philosophically.
by Skin Patrol on Jan 8, 2009 5:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Again
I appreciate you response, and you genuine attempt to understand my position.
First, Colorado/Oregon did mean more back then. I grew up in California going to the Holiday Bowl and the [now defunct] Freedom Bowl in the late 80’s and early 90’s as a child. Those games had a really festive vibe, because, as I said, the National Title was an abstraction, and Oregon and BYU weren’t really in that [then much smaller] conversation, they were just excited that they had won 9 games, had a great season, and were going to San Diego for a celebration. Later that night, you might tune in to see if Miami had taken care of business, or if Washington was still #1 in the final poll, but the sport wasn’t structured around the National Title. Again, it was exactly like going to see Katy win the Texas Bowl, and then looking in the paper the next day to see whom was crowned the high school National Champion. If you were an Oregon fan, you were content to assume that Miami was better, and if the media gave accolades to the Hurricanes, it certainly didn’t take away from having just beaten Oregon State and winning the Freedom Bowl in your final two games. I understand that you feel this way still about Texas Tech, but my point is there has been a cultural shift.
I liken the National Champion at that time to the Oscar winner: No Country For Old Men goes in the history books, but that doesn’t ruin There Will be Blood. And the Champion should be treated like the Oscars, because it is relatively arbitrary and subjective. Five teams have great seasons, but we cosmetically decide which one we think is best. One of my problems with a playoff, is that it arrogantly assumes its “Champion” to be indisputably, and validly, “the best team” (which of course it isn’t), which devalues the second and third place team’s efforts. At least within the old mentality, finishing second or third was equivalent to making There Will be Blood, and not failing completely. By the way, I think I’m getting tired and losing my lucidity, is this analogy making any sense? : )
In other words, leaving it cosmetic, and devaluing the “Champion” a bit, leaves enough gray area or nuance for us to celebrate a #2 Florida St., or a #3 Penn St., as teams that were probably just as good as the “Champion.” But declaring an “objective” approach to a “Champion” (leaving no room for nuance or debate) and structuring the entire sport around it (rather than a championship just being an after-thought to an already evolved sport, which it originally was), declares that every team that isn’t champion is a failure. Which, again, I think is stupid. There is no reason to restructure a sport for the sake of a concept as abstract and unprovable as “Champion.”
And I’m losing my concentration at this point, so I will eat and then get back to you.
by BrooklynHorn on Jan 8, 2009 5:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Re:
Those games had a really festive vibe, because, as I said, the National Title was an abstraction, and Oregon and BYU weren’t really in that [then much smaller] conversation, they were just excited that they had won 9 games, had a great season, and were going to San Diego for a celebration.
As you point out, you’ve just described Texas Tech in the Cotton Bowl in 2005. We had no shot at a national title. We had 9 win seasons or better. We were going to Dallas for a celebration. The National Title is and has always been an “abstraction” for Tech fans, because we’ve never been close to getting one under the BCS system. If the joy of the Cotton Bowl is the joy of not winning (or even worrying about winning) the national championship, I assure you that’s a joy I’ve felt before.
The question regarding the cultural shift, and the crux of what I’m asking, is whether or not the cultural shift is a bad or good thing. That’s what my post is asking. I’m asking you to explain why the shift is bad, I will take your word for it that this alleged cultural shift has occurred. I can’t SENSE the badness of the change merely from reading your 12 year old remembered subjective love of the CFB system in 1996. I need something more tangible, something that I can experience without living your life, on which to judge. For me, it’s a no brainer, because as a CFB and NFL fan I have a playoff system and a non-playoff system on which to measure which I like more. Think of me as one of the massive amounts of youngsters who found CFB without any attachment to old systems and now you have an opportunity to convince me that it was better back then. Reminding me how fun it is to walk up hill in the snow both ways won’t sell me. Is there something horrible happening in CFB? If so, what? This entire discussion is difficult because we don’t share common ground on the value of the CFB experience, and I want us to share some common ground on the experience of CFB. It sounds like you’d be comfortable with something like: Fan appreciation of the game (surely that’s what you’re describing?)? Wouldn’t that metric necessarily be objective? Because what’s good for CFB can’t be “What BrooklynHorn thinks is good for CFB” right? So here’s my shot at an objective test: The system that produces the most appreciation out of the most fans, that increases the utility of “fan appreciation” the most in other words, is the better system. Are you comfortable with that measure? Do you think that favors the old system or the new one?
I liken the National Champion at that time to the Oscar winner: No Country For Old Men goes in the history books, but that doesn’t ruin There Will be Blood. And the Champion should be treated like the Oscars, because it is relatively arbitrary and subjective.
One of the benefits of a playoff system is that it eliminates much of the subjectivity of deciding a Champion. Indeed, a playoff is hardly arbitrary since the winner is decided by the rules of Win Or Go Home. I suppose a criticism of subjectivity could still be leveled against an 8 team field, but that criticism will be far weaker than the one leveled at the 2 team field currently utilized by the BCS.
One of my problems with a playoff, is that it arrogantly assumes its "Champion" to be indisputably, and validly, "the best team" (which of course it isn’t), which devalues the second and third place team’s efforts.
Let’s be clear: Systems do not assume things. People assume things. Patriots fans assume that the Patriots are the World Champions of Football and All That Is Good In This World. Giants fans assume the same, but for the Giants. Whichever assumption is correct is irrelevant. The Giants are the team that won the NFL playoffs which determines the Champion. Playoffs or not, the AP will remain free to pick whomever they want. They could pick a 9-4 team this year to be the NC. They could pick no one. They could pick a winless team. They could pick a team that graduated a lot of students.
ONE (of a hundred) reasons for a playoff is to render all that moot. Is a playoff system the “best” for deciding an objective “Champion” of a sport? No, who on earth knows what the best objective measure of deciding champions could possibly be, but it is an easily understood, highly consumed, favored, and nearly universally utilized method for determining a champion of a sport. Is the March Madness winner always the best objective team in the league that year? Fuck if I know. Who cares? Should anyone?
I’ve never felt like my team’s football season was useless or devalued and I hope no Texas fan feels likewise in years they don’t win the National Championship. Your concern seems to be that there’s more to football than winning championships, and on this we can all agree. No one more than I, because Texas Tech doesn’t even have A championship. But that’s true whatever system we use for determining a champion, right?
There is no reason to restructure a sport for the sake of a concept as abstract and unprovable as "Champion."
MAYBE that was true prior to the BCS, but having restructured the sport for precisely that sake and done so in a completely retarded way that assigns prestige arbitrarily (to the likes of Virginia Tech over Alabama? Anyone over Utah?) and often times unreasonably, a sea-change is necessary. I’d rank BCS behind no-BCS and no-Playoff and both behind Playoff.
by Skin Patrol on Jan 8, 2009 6:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Now
you lost me entirely. You’ve completely misunderstood everything I’ve written in the prior post. I suppose I should have made more effort to differentiate the terms “Champion,” and “best team,” as I wrongly assume most people don’t. This is good, however, because they are not, in fact, the same thing.
That said, a playoff format (or the proponents thereof) absurdly proclaims its victor “the best team,” which is, in my eyes, unprovable, just as the Best Picture is unprovable. One can prove the best team on a given occasion (that is, after all, why they play the games), and one can objectively identify a team as the Champion of the tournament. However, one game can not objectively identify the best overall campaign of 2008. It takes only a touch of reflection to lead one to realize the Patriots probably had better campaign in 2007 than did the Giants, but none of this is provable.
A playoff system operates under the pretension that it is objective in its pursuits to determine the best team, the dangers of which exceed even the harmless confines of a college football debate. Viewing issues of natural nuance as entirely black or white is perhaps just dangerous in general, particularly when such thinking becomes indoctrinated into the entirety of a culture. Again, I am more comfortable with the current [or old] system which left people feeling that perhaps the wrong team was crowned champion.
Few issues have any room for objectivity, but culturally we attempt to frame things as if they do, because we feel we cannot move forward unless we have something considerable, legal and concrete…which incidentally is a great statement if you feel inclined to instigate a fight between students of Eastern and Western philosophy.
by BrooklynHorn on Jan 8, 2009 6:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
completely disagree...
playoffs do NOT, in fact, determine the “best” team. That particular fallacy is completely a function of the current voting system.
A playoff would determine a true “champion”: the team that won. You can argue for decades whether that is actually the “best” team. I still believe, and will to my dying day that the Dallas Cowboys in the Ice Bowl way back were significantly “better” than the Packers. Unfortunately for them, their offense was affected far more by the weather conditions than the Packers, and it came down to a last play (where, by the way, Kramer was in motion prior to the snap…). At the end of the day, however, they were not the NFL champions, and I’ve never heard anyone, even including myself, argue that they were… The winners are all legitimate champions, even the Villanovas of the world, because they won the championship.
by Pflash on Jan 8, 2009 7:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you are simply restatng what I wrote
by BrooklynHorn on Jan 8, 2009 8:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What that should demonstrate...
is that the things you assign to playoffs or playoffs proponents are simply untrue. Playoffs do not, even by those who vehemently support them, attempt to answer some objective question about the best team or best overall campaign. It’s simply a mechanism for naming a “champion” and nothing more.
by Skin Patrol on Jan 9, 2009 11:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
so why restructure an entire sport around it?
by BrooklynHorn on Jan 9, 2009 12:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That said, a playoff format (or the proponents thereof) absurdly proclaims its victor "the best team," which is, in my eyes, unprovable, just as the Best Picture is unprovable.
Or they just claim that the winner of the playoffs is the champion. In which sport’s playoff does a team when the title “The Best Team”? If “the best team” is unprovable, anyways, why would it matter if anyone claimed that anywho?
However, one game can not objectively identify the best overall campaign of 2008.
But we’re not discussing the system in place to “identify the best overall campaign of 2008” we’re trying to determine the system to identify the champion of the overall campaign of 2008. I don’t think there’s any reason that a playoff winner is NECESSARILY the “best overall campaign of 20XX” (although in most instances they would be) but who cares? Why is that important? The objective best overall campaign of 20XX sounds more like a “the best team” debate, which is entirely separate from that of champion. People are free to agree and disagree about which between the Giants and the Patriots last year was the best team of 2007 (it was the Patriots) but the champion is not indispute. Similarly, fans will happily wonder whether Utah, with its unblemished record, didn’t accomplish as much or more than Florida, who lost at home to a then unranked but extremely underrated Ole Miss team. But of the question of champion there is no doubt: It is Florida.
How is a playoff any different? The advantage playoff proponents charge isn’t that it is better at answering this “best team question” but that it is better at answering this “champion” question. I think everyone agrees that one game cannot objectively identify the best overall campaign of 2008. The question is, can one game objectively identify the champion of 2008? Yes, it does, and that game was the one played last night. Should it have been is the question.
A playoff system operates under the pretension that it is objective in its pursuits to determine the best team, the dangers of which exceed even the harmless confines of a college football debate.
I couldn’t disagree more and I have no idea why you keep assigning irrational pretensions and assumptions a SYSTEM that is incapable of either. A playoff bracket is merely a procedure for determining a champion that has an elegant structure. It is inclusive in that it includes more than the current system. It attempts or should attempt to maintain a degree of exclusivity so that the regular season remains meaningful. The determining criteria is one universally recognized and appreciated throughout sports, indeed it is THE criteria that determines everything in sports: Win and you Win. Some of these aspects it shares with the current BCS system (like the winning part, Florida is champion). Others it doesn’t (like the inclusivity part, win and you aren’t in, unfortunately, for Utah). Nothing about those structures assumes or pretends that it is better capable of answering the question of which team is better: Giants or Patriots. It simply puts those teams on equal footing and says, Here’s your chance to settle it on the field good luck.
Doesn’t the BCS crown a champion? Does it do so in shades of grey (perhaps OU is 40% champion? Perhaps Utah is 10% champion and then Florida gets 50%?) or in black and white — Florida it is? Whatever philosophical damage a clearly titled champion does to the sport or culture (I think this is hyperbole), damage is done. And there are survivors. The question now is not: Does crowning a champion irreversibly affect us as college football fans, as human beings, but HOW SHOULD WE CROWN A CHAMPION. Those other issues have been dealt with already. CFB names a champion, the world still exists.
Your position sounds like it should be dismantling the BCS more than fighting against playoffs. Whatever is commendable about your philosophic position is just as contrary to the current system as it would be to playoffs.
which incidentally is a great statement if you feel inclined to instigate a fight between students of Eastern and Western philosophy.
I majored in philosophy and find it to be one of the most tedious, boring, and unnecessary intellectual pursuits available. This is a good example of when, where philosophies might disagree, it is fortunate that cultures, human beings, do not. Japan embraces playoffs. China embraces playoffs. Korea embraces playoffs. A vote for playoffs is a vote for bridging the east-west cultural divide, viva la union!
by Skin Patrol on Jan 9, 2009 11:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I have to disagree with you on “making the regular season meaningless”. Take the preseason AP top 25 this year. Five of the top 8 teams wouldn’t have made any reasonable eight-team playoff (Georgia, OSU, Missouri, LSU, and West Virginia). OSU only lost twice in the regular season and they’d still be out. And three of the teams in would have come from outside the top 20 (maybe even four, depending on which of Penn State, Texas Tech, and Boise State you decide to leave out).
Furthermore, how many games have actual meaning now? Certainly none of Utah’s or Boise State’s did – they were eliminated before the first kickoff of the season (if they can’t get in with zero losses, is there any realistic scenario in which they can get in?). Penn State-Michigan State and USC-UCLA could have decided playoff spots instead of who gets to play in a meaningless exhibition game (as far as the national title picture is concerned). Buffalo’s upset of Ball State in the MAC title game might have had the teams on the fringe (say, Penn State or Texas Tech) celebrating as it knocked out one more contender. (That may sound strange, but there’s one position I’m not willing to compromise on in a playoff – any unbeaten team must get in, because there’s no one who’s proven they don’t belong.)
I think the best situation would probably be: 8 teams, home sites until the championship (partly for logistic reasons – you’re not going to get 30,000 fans to travel to bowl sites three weeks in a row on short notice – and partly to give the top seeds an advantage), no automatic bids except for unbeaten teams (and if there are more than eight, we expand the playoffs for that year only), selection by a committee of some sort (the coaches’ poll should, for reasons that should be obvious to everyone, not be a factor at all).
by SpartanDan on Jan 8, 2009 4:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, yes...
“…expand the plaoyoffs for that year only…”. The slope is getting awfull slippery already.
marshalld
by duras on Jan 8, 2009 10:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That was only in the unlikely event that you have more than eight unbeaten teams. I can remember one year with five, but most years there aren’t any more than three – including smaller conference teams who are unjustifiably eliminated from consideration before the season begins.
Eight is plenty, but I threw in that contingency clause only to deal with the possibility (however unlikely) that even that system would leave out a team with no losses. That is one point I am completely unwilling to compromise on – if you want to declare a champion, every team had better have a chance at least a theoretical chance at earning it, and if a team hasn’t lost it hasn’t blown that chance yet.
by SpartanDan on Jan 11, 2009 3:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice Article
Before you cry about how Virginia Tech didn’t belong in your ultra-exclusive BCS club, maybe you should actually try to win your conference. The Fiesta Bowl was the meaningless game, played between two crybaby runners-up whose greatest strength was making money – not winning football games.
by tylerlang on Jan 8, 2009 3:23 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
It’s not like Texas won 11 games in the regular season. That’s so much less than V-tech. We just paid our way to our bowl game.
Get lost, idiot.
by TheElusiveShadow on Jan 8, 2009 5:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"but would be botched in practice"
This is the only argument against a playoff that has any play with me as well, but then I ask if a blotched playoff would be at least as good or better than what we have now and for most years the answer would be yes.
The easiest to predict and first screw up they would make would be to invalidate your statement of “Look no further than the one BCS match up featuring two teams who would have been excluded from an 8-team playoff — the Orange Bowl between Virginia Tech and Cincinnati.”
Ah, but these teams will not be excluded. The BCS conferences would have to receive automatic bids to the playoff or they would torpedo any negotiations. So you would have had VT and CIN taking up two spots that others deserved. Still, would this be as good as or better than what we have now. Yes-out of Oklahoma, Florida, Texas, Alabama, USC, Utah, Penn State, and Texas Tech, six would have been in the playoff and two screwed over by VT and CIN.
Hint-Tech would have been one of those left out b/c their second screwup will be to limit the number of teams from one conference that can compete in the playoffs to two.
by tdwalsh on Jan 8, 2009 4:11 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
We already have a broken playoff – a two-team playoff that has to choose from sometimes half a dozen virtually identical teams. I can’t imagine a format that could be botched any worse.
by SpartanDan on Jan 8, 2009 4:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Argument against a playoff
First let me preface this by saying that I am in support of a college football playoff system, but for the sake of argument would like to present a point not brought up in PB’s article that I find interesting in considering a playoff system. This is that a playoff system would fundamentally change the way that college football is played. Implementing a playoff would create a very conservative league, much like the NFL. In this “new” league teams such as Texas, Oklahoma, USC, Florida, Ohio State, etc. would flourish. These teams have the talent and resources to survive a playoff system. The old saying in the NFL is that by the playoffs “everyone is hurt.” So in creating a playoff system in college football you aren’t creating a competition as much as you are creating a survival contest. For example, earlier in the year Texas was “lucky” enough to play a four game stretch against four top 12 teams in a row. In the end we squandered our chance at a National Championship in the very last game of this four game stretch. Much of what went wrong in Lubbock was attributed to our poor play and the combination of fatigue and injury that plagued the team. This stretch is very similar to what teams would face in a playoff format. Football is a brutal sport and ultimately the team with the most depth would succeed in a playoff. This means that your top tier programs are the only ones that would compete for a national championship year in and year out. Unlike the NFL, the distribution of talent is not as equal. While we would like to think that it would be possible for a team like Texas Tech or Utah to get "hot" and run the table, the fact is they would just not have the overall personnel to succeed in such a demanding stretch of games. In fact, Utah is probably better suited to the current system. They can always claim a piece or argument to the 2008 National Championship. In a playoff system a team like Utah would be crushed. They might win their first round game against Alabama. If given a month to prepare for a single game, Utah might be able to knock off any top 5 team in the nation you pair them up with. However, in a playoff Utah would not beat three (round of eight requires three successive victories to be crowned champion) top eight teams in a row. The idea that a playoff would open up the National Championship is only true if you are one of a select few schools in the nation. Fortunately this scenario benefits a school like mine, Texas.
by Char610 on Jan 8, 2009 5:10 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I agree Utah could never compete in a playoff system against the likes of Alabama.
Would a Boise State ever beat an Oklahoma? I doubt it. That just couldn’t happen because Oklahoma is too good. BCS teams that play in National Championship games are flawless and could never lose by double digits at neutral sites or at home to an unranked opponent no way that would ever happen.
Utah is much better off not claiming even a disputed AP title ever despite going undefeated, for sure. You must know something Utah head coach Kyle Whittingham doesn’t, because he wants a playoff.
by Skin Patrol on Jan 8, 2009 5:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you think he just might be smart enough...
to see that “slim chance” is infinitely superior to “no chance”?
The only real argument against a true playoff that really makes sense is BrooklynHorn’s – namely he just doesn’t like the whole idea of a “champion”. It sounds kind of retarded, but at least it’s a coherent argument. He can at least claim some sense of logic, even harkening back to a purer, simpler time when only regular season games mattered, and they were played for fun and pride… of course, that was back when people regularly were crippled or killed playing a game that has some sort of devolutionary similarity to modern-day football, but hey, it’s at least a real argument against a better method of determining a legitimate champion if you just don’t want a champion to begin with. Naturally, the best argument against that is made by Bill James in the Slate article linked earlier:
“It is inherent in the nature of sports to seek a clear resolution of the competition. You have two football conferences, two basketball conferences, two baseball leagues—you want to know who the best team really is. That doesn’t come from anywhere; it’s integral to the sport. It’s like a movie; either the boy gets the girl, or he doesn’t. Either the cop catches the killer, or he doesn’t. Either the hero wins the battle, or he dies on the battlefield. That’s just the way it is, whether it’s Shakespeare or schlock. Leaving the situation unresolved is unpopular because it’s unnatural.”
As to the whole ‘sanctity of the regular season’ argument – I still don’t buy it. If the playoff pool was large enough that a loss or even two didn’t automatically kick you out, perhaps the top teams would be more willing to play each other more often, rather than trying to buy sure wins. And if the games meant marginally “less”, wouldn’t the fact that they were just better games between better teams balance that out?
At the end of the day, all this talk probably means nothing… it’s the money that talks loudest. And I don’t mean the amount of dollars – any playoff, no matter how badly designed, would most likely rake in substantially bigger purses. It comes down to one thing, it doesn’t count how much you fill the wallet, it’s whose pocket that wallet goes in…
by Pflash on Jan 8, 2009 6:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Slightly off the subject
For the reasons mentioned above,, I would eliminate the conference championships, or make everyone play one! i.e Pac10 Big 10. add 2 teams.
by DR.MARK on Jan 8, 2009 6:11 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Good article as usual PB, but...
the sudden depth of analysis between you, brooklynhorn and skinpatrol, not to mention the lengthy soliloquies, have left me and my short attention span a little dizzy. If I see a post longer than 6-7 lines my eyes gloss over and I hit the “z” button. I’ve just been sitting at a desk looking at a screen for most of the day already for work. Sorry.
Otherwise, nice work. Right now I’m off to the FanShot section for a little recovery.
by UT92 on Jan 8, 2009 6:14 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I've always supported a 12-team tournament
But I still want a Bowl system for the teams that don’t make the tournament. So no problems there with people complaining about not having a bowl system. There’s still the sponsors and money and pride blah blah blah…
I like the 12 team idea because it still puts huge meaning on the regular season, since the top 4 teams get a BYE week. Therefore, I think a 12 team tourney makes the regular season more meaningful than an 8 or 16 team playoff.
by goingforthecorner on Jan 8, 2009 7:33 PM CST reply actions 0 recs























