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Around SBN: UNC 77, Ohio State 73

Blog Poll Submission: Week 9

Boy do I have a treat for you guys:

RankTeamDelta
1 Florida
2 Texas
3 Alabama
4 TCU
5 Cincinnati
6 Iowa
7 Oregon 3
8 Boise State 1
9 Georgia Tech 2
10 Penn State 5
11 LSU 2
12 Pittsburgh
13 Houston
14 Miami (Florida) 3
15 Southern Cal 7
16 Oklahoma State 2
17 Ohio State 3
18 Arizona 4
19 Notre Dame
20 Oklahoma 3
21 Utah 3
22 California
23 South Florida
24 Wisconsin
25 Virginia Tech 9
Last week's ballot

Dropped Out: West Virginia (#19), South Carolina (#21), Central Michigan (#24), Mississippi (#25).


You'll notice Oregon still ahead of Boise State.  More on why I hate puppies after the jump...

Star-divide

Numbers 1-6 and 9-25:  You don't care.  Except maybe that I did drop Oklahoma State a few more spots owing to their lack of a really good win.

Oregon vs. Boise State:  Let's look at the relative resumes of Boise and Oregon.

Boise State has beaten:  Oregon,      ???,      and     Fresno State?  Maybe?

Oregon has beaten:          USC,         Utah,      and     California

Honestly, Fresno is just thrown in as a joke.  Oregon is the only team that Boise has beaten that even sniffs my top 25, while Oregon is 3-1 against my ballot, with a very impressive set of wins over the two Cal teams.  Add to that the fact that watching the Oregon-Boise State game made my stomach make angry sounds, and it's bye-bye Broncos.  Look, don't argue with me about how their resumes are close and so head-to-head should be the tie-breaker.  Their resumes aren't close.  If I could, I would put two or so teams in between these guys, but I can't justify moving Oregon over the other undefeated teams.  Think of the rankings as # 6.5 Oregon and # 8.5 Boise State.  Oregon just doesn't deserve to be above Iowa, Cincy, or TCU, all of whom have at least two mentionable wins and no losses.

Really, Cincinatti probably should be the lowest ranked of that bunch, but I give them a bump over Iowa based on their ability to actually win games before the fourth quarter (even with their backup qb, which I find amazing).  The Bearcats' coach should be on the top of the list for any major programs on the market this offseason.  If Weiss loses another game, he may get a call from South Bend (unless, of course, Charlie's contract wasn't kidding about "as many years as your waste size in inches, and as-many-cheeseburgers-as-you-can-eat-right-now millions of dollars per year").

Poll
Horn Brain most hates:
Puppies
35 votes
The BCS
93 votes
Horn Brain
24 votes
Boise State
26 votes
SEC Quarterbacks
69 votes

247 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 62 comments  |  Add comment

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Comments

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Boise State beat Oregon, you know

Just a reminder, in case you forgot,

by Iron on Nov 3, 2009 7:31 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Yes...

…but at some point the overall resume has to be placed in consideration. Oregon is starting to anhilate teams, and has played a much more impressive schedule.

by Kenny483 on Nov 3, 2009 7:49 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Same can be said for...

Oregon over UT. The have the #11 SOS while ours in the 20’s. They have played more top 30 teams and top 10 teams. Their ‘resume’ is much more impressive. But guess what… they lost. TO BOISE STATE.

by Orangechipper on Nov 3, 2009 8:11 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Texas has wins over

OSU and OU. Plus, our wins over Missouri and the like are better than Boise’s win over Fresno.

by Horn Brain on Nov 3, 2009 9:53 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Who the heck has .....

… Missouri beaten? How about (2-6) Ilinois, (3-5) Bowling Green, (4-4) Furman – FCS, (5-3) Nevada and (2-6) Colorado? Who’s impressed. They’re still looking at another couple of losses.

--- All roads to the Big-XII Championship lead through OU/RRS. It's not just another game! We're all about championships here. ---

by HornChamps on Nov 3, 2009 10:03 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Who's Fresno beaten?

Missouri may just lie even with Fresno, but our win over Tech is a better win than Boise’s over Fresno for sure. Tech’s wins over NU and KU look great compared to anything Fresno has done. That’s three quality wins for Texas and only one for Boise.

by Horn Brain on Nov 3, 2009 11:36 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

So now...

…… “Missouri and the like” has become just Texas Tech?

--- All roads to the Big-XII Championship lead through OU/RRS. It's not just another game! We're all about championships here. ---

by HornChamps on Nov 7, 2009 10:37 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

But I though you guys would hold onto that whole head to head thing a while longer. Good work.

Changed my SBN user name from WoodrowWilson.
The Ralphie Report - University of Colorado Athletics

by Jon Woods on Nov 3, 2009 7:50 AM CST via mobile reply actions   0 recs

Not sure

I don’t really have a dog in the fight here, but I feel like Oregon’s resume is kind of thin too. I don’t think you can truly count Cal as a quality win when they haven’t beaten anyone of note. Utah’s 7-1 record looks pretty good, but again, who have they played? Oregon scraped by both Utah and Purdue of all teams. I’m not saying they won’t deserve to be up there by the end of the season, but they don’t have a killer resume that you can’t deny, outside of the USC win.

by OrangeBritches on Nov 3, 2009 8:02 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

But then what does BSU have?

This is problem. You can dissect Oregon’s schedule and declare it lacking, but if their schedule is lacking then what is Boise State’s schedule? It is dozens of levels below Oregon’s and I can’t see any rationale for giving them a pass on that even with the head-to-head. I would have Boise State behind Penn State and LSU and would continue to drop them if some of the two-loss teams continue to win in impressive fashion. Beating Vandy or Syracuse or Baylor is more impressive than any game left on Boise State’s schedule (which still includes their two ‘toughest’ conference games!)

by Rickyspub on Nov 3, 2009 9:12 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I should clarify.

I present Oregon’s flimsy resume outside of USC as more of a counterpoint than anything else. We know Boise’s resume is rubbish outside of Oregon, but what I’m saying is that Oregon’s is not all that sparkling. They’ve beaten some teams that look good in the standings but haven’t really proven themselves, and then they let an awful Purdue team almost take them to overtime. There’s lots of talk about Oregon’s new and improved defense, but they gave up 451 yards to that same Purdue team who’s offense is average at best. If they keep winning though, you certainly have to give more credit to Oregon than Boise for the schedule that they play. I’m not quite sure I’m ready to make that distinction yet though.

by OrangeBritches on Nov 3, 2009 10:01 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

not "and then"

First they struggled against Purdue, as they did against Boise, then they started cracking teams over the head with a lead mace. Order of events supports my assertion that Oregon just played badly against Boise.

by Horn Brain on Nov 3, 2009 11:39 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And against Purdue

And they had a few other tough goes. But this is a resume poll, not a matchup poll, right?

by burntorangehorn on Nov 3, 2009 12:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

(Parenthetically, who has Penn State beaten)?

Akron (1-7)
Syracuse (3-5)
Temple (6-2; best wins, Navy, Army)
E. Illinois (FCS)
Minnesota (5-4)
      all at home
at Illinois, at NWestern, at Michigan (combined 12-14, 7 of the wins over non-BCS teams)

by edsp on Nov 3, 2009 10:58 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The way it has played out on the field so far...

Oregon’s opponents to date are 31-24 while Boise State’s opponents are an abysmal 19-26. After 7-1 Oregon, Boise’s best win is over 5-3 Fresno State. Meanwhile, Oregon got it together and beat 7-1 Utah, 6-2 Cal, and 6-2 Southern Cal.

by Magnificent Bastard on Nov 3, 2009 9:29 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

A question for Horn Brain and the other puppy-haters

The three main reasons I am gathering that advocates of ranking Oregon higher than Boise ate (1) Boise’s schedule, (2) Boise’s schedule, and (3) Boise’s schedule.

I’m asking the following in good faith: Given Boise’s schedule this season, is there anything Boise could have done, or could do, to justify a higher ranking in your minds? If Boise had won every game by 50, would you then feel more comfortable ranking Boise higher than Oregon? How about 70? Or is Boise’s schedule, no matter how well Boise plays, an automatic bar against their rising any higher, despite the double-digit victory over perhaps the best one-loss team in the country?

Formerly kjm017

by Hopkins Horn on Nov 3, 2009 9:19 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I can't reduce that win over Oregon to just a "double-digit victory"...

it was the first Thursday of football and it actually managed to become more ugly than the Duck’s uniforms. Regarding the rest of Boise’s schedule: they cannot dominate their opponents enough to move up on their own. Remember when A&M was 3-0, with the most total offense in the country? How much was that stat worth? Or OU’s two shutout, blowout wins heading into Miami?

by Magnificent Bastard on Nov 3, 2009 9:40 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

While Aggie has taken...

…. 3 losses, they are still #3 in total offense. At 5-3, they are moving the ball up and down the field.

--- All roads to the Big-XII Championship lead through OU/RRS. It's not just another game! We're all about championships here. ---

by HornChamps on Nov 3, 2009 9:53 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

honest question...

..since I’m too lazy to look it up and didn’t see the games, does anyone know how their offense fared in those 3 losses?

by vy til i die on Nov 3, 2009 9:58 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

FYI

AR 458 yards
OSU 382 yards
K St. 301 Yards

Current Avg 490 yrd

by billb on Nov 3, 2009 10:19 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Not the answer he wanted to hear.....

--- All roads to the Big-XII Championship lead through OU/RRS. It's not just another game! We're all about championships here. ---

by HornChamps on Nov 4, 2009 12:09 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

yes miss cleo...

..that’s why I prefixed the statement w/ “honest question” meaning I wasn’t trying to bag on you, but no, you still get defensive when in reality, I was trying to see “how their offense fared”. But go ahead and be presumptuous.

Thanks billb.

by vy til i die on Nov 4, 2009 1:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Nice attempt at the crawfish

--- All roads to the Big-XII Championship lead through OU/RRS. It's not just another game! We're all about championships here. ---

by HornChamps on Nov 7, 2009 10:38 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If they had ONE more win

on the order of Utah and Cal, I’d have them on top.

by Horn Brain on Nov 3, 2009 9:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

So then your answer is . . .

. . . there was nothing else Boise could do with the schedule it had for this season for you to feel comfortable ranking them above Oregon? Again, just curious.

Here’s another way of asking the question: if you’re uncomfortable with Boise, why do you you nevertheless have them ranked above every single other one-loss team (GT, PSU, LSU, Pitt) except for the very one-loss team they defeated?

Formerly kjm017

by Hopkins Horn on Nov 3, 2009 10:18 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe they could fall behind GT

But no one else has really impressed me like Oregon has. Undefeated counts for something, but it isn’t a trump card.

by Horn Brain on Nov 3, 2009 11:40 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It probably shouldn't be a trump card, but...

…the combination of being undefeated AND having stomped Oregon head-to-head really should be a trump card.

by burntorangehorn on Nov 3, 2009 12:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

well...

…IMO, the reason why Boise is getting no love is b/c they did the same exact thing last year (undefeated reg. season), then they played TCU in their bowl game and lost.

So, forgive me if I think that Boise State is overrated, and their only good win might be a fluke. JMO.

by vy til i die on Nov 3, 2009 9:52 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

no...

…but when comparing Boise to actual good teams, like TCU, they showed that all those wins are a little misleading.

by vy til i die on Nov 4, 2009 1:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Absolutely

It’s a two-part question.

Is there anything a one-loss Oregon can do to pass an undefeated Boise in my rankings? Probably not, barring some sort of illegitimate, Fifth Down sort of victory by Boise or something else out of left field beyond what one would expect to see over the course of a season (or has seen this season). Oregon has a ceiling of (Boise -1), so the highest I would ever rank Oregon this season would be #2.

But can Oregon “overcome” the loss relative to everyone else in the country? Of course. I would rank Oregon right now as the best one-loss team in the country, and I would have them ranked ahead of at least one undefeated team (Iowa). And if Oregon kept winning impressively, I wouldn’t have a problem jumping them over Cincinnati, TCU and the loser of the SEC Championship Game if on-field results called for doing so. Just so long as Boise comes along for the ride.

Formerly kjm017

by Hopkins Horn on Nov 3, 2009 10:47 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

So if BSU loses

Oregon could potentially become #1 with a big enough set of hypothetical wins.

But if BSU remains undefeated, Oregon cannot? Even if BSU continues to cane bad teams and Oregon continues to cane good ones? That seems to me as unfair to Oregon as my rankings, to you, seem unfair to Boise.

Point: There are different ways to rank teams within a self-consistent schema.

by Horn Brain on Nov 3, 2009 11:44 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No. BSU is overrated right now...

Like I said I would currently put them below the Penn State and LSU. Even Penn State has mustered enough ‘quality’ wins to overcome their close loss to Iowa and still have a better resume at this point than Boise State. I am not convinced that Boise State would come out of playing Iowa, Illinois, Minnesota, Michigan, and Northwestern unscathed and I certainly know they wouldn’t have gotten past Florida much less taking care of Washington, Vandy, Miss St, Auburn, and Georgia.

Too many people underestimate the advantage of not having to play under high stress at least 8 weeks of the season. Boise State just doesn’t take the physical and mental punishment any of the other top teams take even in years when their conference is down. I don’t think Boise State is a one- or even two-loss team in any of the major conferences outside of maybe the Big East.

by Rickyspub on Nov 3, 2009 11:39 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Boise sucks

by GGoffense on Nov 3, 2009 9:31 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Not only did BSU beat Oregon, they're also undefeated

The schedule is soft, other than Oregon, but when they actually did face strong competition, they dominated. That, to me, indicates that BSU has to be ranked ahead of Oregon. Otherwise we should just not bother with the games and hold a beauty contest.

by burntorangehorn on Nov 3, 2009 10:09 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Boise didn't just beat Oregon

361 total yards to 152, with 11 more points on the board.

Boise lost 3/3 fumbles and missed some field goals.

The ball bounces differently, and Boise wins by 20. They tried to give the game away, and couldn’t.

Boise dominated Oregon and it wasn’t close. Now Oregon is tearing it up.

IMO, Boise stays ahead of Oregon, because they haven’t done anything yet to sully the fact that they won that game other than beating all the teams on their schedule, which somehow, they’re getting penalized for.

by notsofst on Nov 3, 2009 10:20 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

They're getting penalized for their schedule

Not for winning it.

That game was a trash fest. You say Boise tried to give the game away and couldn’t, well why do you think that was? You don’t think that Oregon, playing on an average day, beats Boise when they “try to give them the game”? Oregon just crapped the bed harder than Boise did, is all. That’s an outlier.

by Horn Brain on Nov 3, 2009 11:47 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

so it's a resume ranking

minus the outliers…

well, in that case, I want my championship from the ‘77 season, because I think Earl’s senior year team would horsewhip Notre Dame at least 8 times out of 10. The actual Cotton Bowl result was really just an outlier…

by Pflash on Nov 3, 2009 9:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I like puppies

Your tongue can't repel flavor of that magnitude!!

by UT2001 on Nov 3, 2009 11:30 AM CST via mobile reply actions   0 recs

Quack, quack, quack, quack, quack.

I can’t see Boise State when they play at home because I’m blue blind.

I can see Oregon when they play at home but it makes my eyes bleed.

Duck calls are a lot more fun.

Ducks taste a lot better than puppiess.

Horse shit is a pain to clean up but duck shit starts cycles of flu in lower China and thus are more deadly.

Fiat dux.

And OU still sux.

by whills on Nov 3, 2009 12:06 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I'd probably devolve to limricks at this point.

Boy, we can chew the fat. Good thing there isn’t snow two feet deep all over Texas or we would be really full of it.

by whills on Nov 3, 2009 1:53 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Who got paid

so Boise St could get such an easy schedule?

Just because no one wants to play on blue turf doesn’t mean they should be allowed to schedule inferior opponents and walk into a decent bowl game. Boise’s a great town and teams should jump at the chance to play there.

Beating ranked teams moves you up all day long. Beating sub-par teams moves you up, just very slowly when you’re in the top 20. Deal with it and schedule some teams worth playing against next year.

Order a tailgate party package for your next hotel room at
http://www.uberoom.com

by uberoom on Nov 3, 2009 12:22 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

You think teams just don't want to play on blue turf?

I don’t think that really has anything to do with it. I think teams are just unreasonably afraid to do a home-and-home, or even a home-away-home, with BSU.

BSU shouldn’t be able to schedule inferior opponents? What do you call the UT schedule this year? I’d call it pretty darn inferior. Oregon posed as much threat to beat BSU as any two opponents have to UT this season, and really, facing one team that can actually beat your team, plus eleven scrubs, is a bigger scheduling risk than twelve games against middling teams.

by burntorangehorn on Nov 3, 2009 12:27 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll call BS on that...

There is nothing on Boise State’s conference schedule that matches up to the middling A&M squads in either ’06 or ’07, much less the seemingly improved team we will face later this month. 12 games against middling teams is more difficult and risky than eleven scrubs and one legit team. Those 12 middling teams not only make a loss a real killer to your resume, they all individually have the ability to beat you since they are close enough in talent and coaching to catch you should you lose motivation. The eleven scrubs have no change of beating you (outside of a series of miracles), though a close game might reflect badly on your resume. 11-1 in the scrubs +1 schedule could still potentially get you a BCS bid if you play your media cred properly. 10-2 versus the middling teams might not even win you your conference.

The real problem here is that Texas won’t play 12 middling teams. They will have played 5-6 scrubs (though Baylor only became a scrub when Griffin went down and I am not sure if Colorado is truly a scrub or just a weak middling team). 2-3 legit teams (OU and OSU…not sure where to place Tech and A&M yet but they are both certainly capable of giving BSU a run for their money) and 3-4 truly middling teams. BSU had Oregon and Fresno State as its two marquee games, Fresno didn’t end up being all that great. Some people thought Nevada might give BSU a run for their money and they still might, but they certainly didn’t do much against their BCS-conference opponents to call themselves a legit team. To compare schedules and say that ours is inferior to Boise States is just to have blue colored blinders. Our schedule may not look as good as some of the other top teams but it makes Boise State’s schedule look downright embarrassing.

I also like the tortured logic that Boise State should be in the BCS picture because no one from a BCS-conference will play them. Its noteworthy that teams don’t want to risk a September game against them but the corrective isn’t to make them a top 10 team for walking through an 11-game cakewalk and award them a BCS bid if they win their one difficult game. You pat them on the back for winning their conference and beating what turned into a good Oregon team and let them play in their WAC-affiliated bowl game. If they want a place at the table they have nothing standing in their way of going independent which might open up their chances of scheduling more legit opponents.

by Rickyspub on Nov 3, 2009 2:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

BSU's opponents vs. BCS conference teams

Boise State’s opponents are 7-15 versus BCS conference opponents up to this point they will play 7 additional BCS opponents. Sounds decent right? Take out Oregon and the remaining opponents are 1-15 vs. the BCS (the lone victory was over Washington State) and they will play 3 games against BCS opponents the rest of the way (LSU and Wisconsin should win two of them the only one in questions would be Fresno State at Illinois).

Texas’ opponents are 18-31 versus BCS conference opponents (18-23 if you take out our game) and will play another 30 games against BCS opponents. Even with the mediocre numbers (which will always trend towards .500 since most of the games are conference games) it is obvious we are facing a different quality of opponent. When the second best victory on your schedule sports a win over Washington State as its marquee win, you just aren’t in the realm of apples-to-apples comparisons.

by Rickyspub on Nov 3, 2009 2:37 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It’s always nice to have words put into my mouth, rather than to be engaged in genuine discussion.

Thanks.

by burntorangehorn on Nov 3, 2009 2:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Huh?

Where did I put words in your mouth? And how is what I said not a genuine discussion of your points?

by Rickyspub on Nov 3, 2009 3:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You're putting words into my mouth.

For example:
I also like the tortured logic that Boise State should be in the BCS picture because no one from a BCS-conference will play them.

by burntorangehorn on Nov 3, 2009 3:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And?

So you are going to question my entire discussion because of one sentence at the end? I was trying to understand if you were making the case that BSU has earned their place in the top 10 based solely on the fact that they beat Oregon. You noted earlier in the thread that BSU should be ranked ahead of Oregon because they are undefeated and beat Oregon. So should they be given bonus points for being undefeated with a weak schedule that is only weak because they couldn’t get any other good teams to play them? I argue that they have no other victories that warrant them being in the top ten, even if they have won all those games and one victory over Oregon doesn’t change the fact that they haven’t faced a schedule (nor will they) that is even within striking distance of the other teams around them.

So I am trying to figure out if you think they should be ranked that high because they beat Oregon. Or is it because since ‘no one’ good will play them they should be given a pass because they are undefeated against some of the weakest teams in FBS but do have that one win of note. Or is it because you really think that our schedule is somehow comparable and if we can be in the top 10 with such an ‘inferior’ schedule why shouldn’t BSU. I don’t think one game makes a season. I don’t think 11 creampuffs should warrant a team a spot anywhere near the top 10 no matter what that 12th game is. While our schedule may not rank among the toughest in the country, it is light-years tougher than BSU’s.

If you want to ignore the rest of what I was saying fine. We have had good arguments in the past and I don’t think I have ever given the perception that I am willingly arguing in bad faith.

by Rickyspub on Nov 3, 2009 3:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Everyone at BON is just adorable.

I wish I could hug every last one of you.

by BrooklynHorn on Nov 3, 2009 2:06 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Everyone.

Ducks, mops, overly-sensitive Boise defenders… adorable.

by BrooklynHorn on Nov 4, 2009 12:36 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Geez

I can’t believe this conversation is still going on on.

by Infield Elephant on Nov 3, 2009 2:59 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Where else...

in the blogosphere can you find a community in which the most contentious and thorough argument in weeks involves defending the honor of two teams that not only have nothing to with that community’s own school, but aren’t even in the same conference?

I wonder what Oregon and Boise St. fans would think of these threads.

by BrooklynHorn on Nov 3, 2009 4:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

TexasAgs forums

They’re surprisingly intelligent and sophisticated.

by Iron on Nov 3, 2009 6:33 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Problem with resume voting...

You can virtually put ANYBODY above anybody, Remember the Doug Lesmerizes wacky rankings in week 3 or 4?

Okie State was ahead of Houston at that point if i remember right.

You are ex Bob Stoops coach and hate Texas. Well then put Texas @ #5 & OU @ #1. because afterall. Goshdarnit. Ou just looks better.

You are an AP voter and a Cincy grad. Well… Cincy has LOOKED better than Alabama and has a higher Margin of victory. Cincy is #2 and Oregon #3 because they are so hot right now. You put Texas #4 because they are CIncy’s biggest threat.

I know, I know. Extreme examples. But if you just have this uber-subjective smell test then a true consensus is near impossible and you get Regional and other bias’s that take over.

by Orangechipper on Nov 3, 2009 3:58 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

That is why you have 100s of voters....

Its far from perfect, I’ll agree. The absurdity of it is that we use such measures in the hopes of picking a mere 2 teams from 119 to play for the championship (even more ludicrous was using voters to crown a champion, sometimes even before the bowl games!). If the system was picking the top 16 teams to play in a playoff the amount of teeth gnashing would mostly be in the seeding. If teams 17 and 18 want to cry, they can, but sympathy will not be greatly forthcoming.

by Rickyspub on Nov 3, 2009 4:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs


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