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Jamaal Charles - Net Plus or Negative?


I caught the following quote from Jamaal Charles in my local paper (Denver Post) today (12/1/09)about his fumble near the goal line last week that hurt the Chiefs:

"The Chiefs destroyed any remote chance of winning with four turnovers. The most momentum-changing was Jamaal Charles' fumble when the Chiefs were driving early and appeared poised to tie it 14-all.

"I was trying to fight for extra yards for the team," Charles said Monday. "In that situation, I should always have two hands, protect the ball. I hurt myself and I feel the pain. We just hurt ourselves. We gave them the game.""

His quote sounded way too familiar to Longhorn fans:

9/23/07 (Rice game):

On fumbling on the second play: I tried to do too much with the ball. All of a sudden, someone came behind me and knocked the ball out. I just tried to do too much. I was kind of down that I fumbled the ball on the second play of the game

On bouncing back: After the fumble, I started to focus and hold the ball in tight. I got my mind focused and told myself that I have to come back and concentrate..

10/6/07 (Oklahoma game):

On his fumble near the goal line: I just saw the end zone and tried to do too much. I tried to score and I thought I scored and the defender came around with his other arm on my left hand and knocked the ball out. I was holding the ball well, he was just a good tackler. I have to give credit to their defense.

I know there's more just like that from Jamaal, was his excuse every time he put the ball on the ground, just not enough time to scour the internet for the other game quotes.

With Jamaal's nasty habit of being responsible for inopportune turnovers I submit the following question to BON fans:

Is Jamaal's presence on an otherwise great, solid football team a net plus or a net negative?  I couch the question that way because I do believe there is a difference between teams that have to make up for a lack of talent by taking chances to overcome their overall deficiencies and teams that have a solid surrounding cast who can match up with most anyone else.

And I tie that presumption to the Texas Longhorns being a team that consistently has a solid surrounding cast.

Full disclosure: I'm of the mindset that for great solid teams it comes down to not making mistakes moreso than quantity of "explosive" plays to beat other great solid teams.  Being deep and having the talent will keep you in games, even just making first downs and playing field position. Capitalizing on the other guys mistakes is the difference maker, as is giving the other guy opportunities to capitalize on yours.  Outclassed teams roll the dice to get results, sometimes winning big, other times crapping out.

And I, for one, wasn't saddened to see Jamaal go pro early even with the disappearance of a running game without him in the backfield last year (or even if he could have been eligible for this season).  I envision him putting the pigskin on the ground at least once during the course of either season that would have cost a game here or there.  So, I'm a "Net Negative".

What do you think?

Poll
Jamaal Charles: on field contributions, were they net positive for Longhorns or net negative
Net Positive
155 votes
Net Negative
11 votes

166 votes | Poll has closed

All comments, FanPosts, and FanShots are the views of the reader-authors who create them.

Comment 86 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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Positive, and it's not even close

People get really, really wrapped up in fumbles, and it’s ridiculous. He has four lost fumbles, I believe, two of them in runs from scrimmage. Considering the outcome of a lost fumble is equivalent to an interception, I have to question why people make such a huge deal about a guy with four fumbles but not a QB with seven picks. Even Peyton Manning has a higher rate of incidence of interceptions per passing attempt than Charles has of fumbles per rushing attempt.

by burntorangehorn on Dec 1, 2009 12:25 PM CST reply actions  

Interceptions - Great Point, re: Chris Simms

Chris Simms had a similar problem with inopportune turnovers both in college and in the NFL. You simply can’t throw interceptions or fumble the ball when you’re in scoring position, particularly against teams that have the talent to match you and don’t make mistakes.

Case and point: the Denver Broncos traded Jay Cutler, a QB with a monster arm and ability to put up great stats, but a propensity to turn it over in the red zone. As a result he has a losing record everywhere he’s played. The Broncos got Kyle Orton, a game manager, nothing flashy, no great stats, but doesn’t make mistakes. Or even take the case of Trent Dilfer, a game manager with a Super Bowl ring, nothing flashy, just didn’t make mistakes.

It’s the timing and location on the field of the fumbles, too.

btw boh, have enjoyed your contributions to this board since our feisty political exchange on the Sooner board. Not going there in the first place is a good thing.

by RMHorn on Dec 1, 2009 12:36 PM CST up reply actions  

You got it, man

No problem at all. Let’s keep our eyes on the (foot)ball, right?

by burntorangehorn on Dec 1, 2009 1:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Are you serious?

2007 Nebraska, Okie Lite would have been losses without him.

He was a solid RB that sometimes had fumble problems.

Hook 'em

by Iron on Dec 1, 2009 12:25 PM CST reply actions  

Remember...

He was also the ball carrier in the first three quarters of those games, in which Nebraska and Okie beat us.

by mikey 4 on Dec 1, 2009 12:29 PM CST up reply actions  

All I remember about Jamaal Charles and Nebraska

is that he made the short list of most impressive 4th quarters any college player has ever had.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on Dec 1, 2009 12:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Was an AWESOME Display

I do remember! Falls under the “roll the dice” outcome, IMHO, though. Can be really, really great, or can blow up on you. That was one of his really, really great moments at UT, and I don’t mean to take that away from him and that accomplishment.

by RMHorn on Dec 1, 2009 1:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe you should elaborate on that "solid supporting cast" on the 2007 squad

Because I think you’re trying to revise college history in light of an NFL fumble.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on Dec 1, 2009 12:26 PM CST reply actions  

you dont throw the baby out with the bath water

to say that Jamaal was solely responsible for that loss to Oklahoma is ridiculous.

by 6th street on Dec 1, 2009 12:27 PM CST reply actions  

Any Win/Loss Is Team Effort

But in close games big mistakes make a difference. And when it’s the same guy who makes the same big mistake over and over how do you ignore that?

Texas has only lost one game since Charles was last in the backfield. I guess the underlying question beneath the poll question is would the Longhorns have beaten Tech last season if Jamaal was in the backfield, while at the same time won every other game? Or would he have put the ball on the ground at critical times in our close games resulting in UT losing more than that Tech game?

by RMHorn on Dec 1, 2009 12:42 PM CST up reply actions  

I continue to be mystified that Horns fans think that Charles wasn't worth the trouble

He was one of the top backs in the nation by the time he graduated. It’s amazing people still overreact to his bad game against Oklahoma.

by TheElusiveShadow on Dec 1, 2009 12:37 PM CST reply actions  

Staggering, in a year we'll be hearing about

how many more games “UT would have won” without Colt holding them back.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on Dec 1, 2009 12:52 PM CST up reply actions  

No Way!

Not where I was going with this. Colt DOESN’T make inopportune mistakes. Charles did, and for that matter so did Simms. They were both parts of very successful teams. But not champions, largely because of their own ill-timed mistakes. No one can ever make that assertion about McCoy, because he doesn’t.

by RMHorn on Dec 1, 2009 12:57 PM CST up reply actions  

Are you kidding?

“Colt DOESN’T make inopportune mistakes.” Did you forget that interception he threw late in the OU game.? If McCoy doesn’t tackle the guy himself, it’s an OU TD and probably an OU victory. And which game was it McCoy was about to score but fumbled near the 5? I guess, since we won you discount those errors. Every player fumbles, throws interceptions, misses tackles, misses blocks, etc., because they are all human. (I heard a rumor that even VY was semi-human himself.)

"Only angry people win football games." --DKR

by OBdoc on Dec 1, 2009 1:05 PM CST up reply actions  

I could just do the clipper cooper laugh

Or I could share the data. This time I will share the data.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on Dec 1, 2009 1:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Nice Graph

Thing I pick up on is this stat: Opp 20 To 1 Yd Ln (RZ) – Interceptions ZERO, QB rating 225.91

Would love to see Simms’ RZ interception total and rating. As well as the number of RZ fumbles in Charles’ career.

Thanks for the support!

by RMHorn on Dec 1, 2009 1:23 PM CST up reply actions  

The data really doesn't support your thesis, but I'm amused you think so

More interceptions than touchdowns in the second half, more interceptions when UT was behind than ahead (and the reason JC gets credit for fourth quarter comebacks in 07), seven ints that gave an opponent the ball within UT’s 40 yard line.

You’re so focused on the “red zone” metric that you’re disregarding the other eighty yards of the field. That’s just absurd.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on Dec 1, 2009 1:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Here's my data for Simms in 2002

Simms ( 2002 ): 235/396, 26 TD’s w/ 12 ints

Colt ( 2007 ): 276/424, 22 TD’s w/ 18 ints

Does anyone here advocate that we would have been better off with Simms in 2007? Simms made errors at inopportune times.

The stat line doesn’t say everything about Charles either. No way he wins a heisman in 2007 without solving his fumble problem.

by notsofst on Dec 1, 2009 1:23 PM CST up reply actions  

I seem to remember a pick six thrown a year ago when we were down 22-13. Was that an opportune time?

by UT_BKC on Dec 1, 2009 1:23 PM CST up reply actions  

I think you just made his point.

That is pretty much the only incidence I can think of McCoy really making a HUGE mistake in a game. He then went on to bring us back from our deficit and put us on top of that game. Unfortunately, he did it a little too quickly.

"I don't care if I have to run100 times or pass it 100 times...Whatever it takes to win is all that matters to me" -VY

by 2100 San Jac on Dec 1, 2009 1:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Or, you know, it was all McCoy’s fault we lost that game and he has been a net negative.

by UT_BKC on Dec 1, 2009 1:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Has this board completely forgotten the 2007 season?

After which many folks were hoping John Chiles became the starting QB. That 2007 season? Lots of revisionist history here.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on Dec 1, 2009 1:42 PM CST up reply actions  

I wasn’t on this board then. I was never rooting for Chiles to take over (sadly, I was rooting for the Q package/Wildhorn and got to see way too much of that failure to execute).

by UT_BKC on Dec 1, 2009 1:45 PM CST up reply actions  

So we should have replaced Colt? I’m not sure if you are agreeing with him or not.

Colt has had some really bad games that LOST us the game. Should we have gotten rid of him for that?

by UT_BKC on Dec 1, 2009 1:57 PM CST up reply actions  

Certainly not, different debate and I did a poor job of clarifying

2007 was a down year for the whole team, particularly the offensive line. That Jamaal Charles ran for 1700+ yards was absolutely amazing and many of McCoy’s issues were directly related to that.

The parrallel I was trying to draw (poorly) was that some took single instances from that season and made arguments that McCoy was a net negative. In view of his career, that is patently false.

These days people enjoy taking a single JC fumble and trying to discredit his contributions to a 10 win season in 2007, 2006 and the National Championship year. It was absurd when these arguments were made about McCoy and they’re absurd now.

The OP apparently thinks that McCoy is great QB, and i don’t think one could rationally dispute that, but he wants to overlook his flaws while highlighting the same flaws in other players.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on Dec 1, 2009 2:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Aw, C'mon Again!

No player is perfect. Even near-god VY wasn’t and made his mistakes. That’s why I posed the question as a “Net Positive or Net Negative”, acknowledging that there are two sides to the balance sheet.

IMHO, Charles’ balance sheet results in a net deficit. That doesn’t mean he didn’t have great contributions to make. Just that he ended up hurting us more than he helped. That’s MY opinion.

And, IMHO, Colt’s balance sheet results in a net gain. That doesn’t mean he hasn’t made mistakes. Just that he ends up helping us more than he hurts. That’s my opinion to. And apparently, by about a 50-1 margin as I post this I’m alone on this. Oh well. Glad to have generated the conversation.

by RMHorn on Dec 1, 2009 2:18 PM CST up reply actions  

From Wikipedia:
Despite skipping his senior year, Charles ranks fourth in the list of total-rushing yards by a UT player, behind Ricky Williams, Cedric Benson, and Earl Campbell, with 3,328 yards. With Charles’ departure, quarterback Colt McCoy becomes the leading returning rusher for the Longhorns

Net positive, without question.

by BoddickerIsClutch on Dec 1, 2009 3:54 PM CST up reply actions  

I want to hear what your balance sheet actually is

Sorry, I graduated with an accounting degree, so I’m going to be a bit nit-picky here. If you’re telling me a handful of unfortunate fumbles undoes he big plays that saved our hides on multiple occasions, I want to see how the heck you’re doing your “math.”

Charles had a good three year run here. I think only people still blaming him for that OU fumble wouldn’t have liked him to have a fourth.

As learned_hand said, a great deal of UT fans were calling for Colt’s head during and after the 2007 season (I wasn’t one of them, but there were many). To make it seem like Charles was the reason for losses in ’07 is ludicrous when he became our shining weapon by the end of the season.

This topic is ridiculous. I’m sorry.

by TheElusiveShadow on Dec 1, 2009 5:09 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Good and Bad

Look, not saying JC was a bad player, just that the luster on his legacy has a lot of scuffs you can’t ignore.

Do you believe there was any other back who could have delivered maybe a bit less productiveness but was less prone to RZ turnovers that the Longhorns could have recruited/had in their backfield besides JC? And would this theoretical back have been able to avoid the costly mistakes JC made and provided the difference he did in the games he won?

I guess the crux of my belief structure on this is that guys you have to rely on who are roll the dice types like JC was, can really deliver on some great plays, but really blow them are less desirable on a solid team than the steady eddies who don’t blow it. A twist on the tortoise and the hare I suppose.

Ridiculous? I think it’s actually pretty cool that this Fan Post ended up with more activity than every other recent one that wasn’t an Open Game Thread or Aggie related. Great to read other fan opinions and insights!

by RMHorn on Dec 1, 2009 5:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Indignation at ridiculous notion drives the # of posts

Not an insight into the quality of the original post

by Wells on Dec 1, 2009 8:59 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm sorry if I came off a bit strong

But you are still pointing to ONE game. Charles had his fumble problems, but he only fumbled, what, four times all year? I’ll take that if he’s going to zip off for 70+ yard touchdowns as well. How many other RZ turnovers are you going to come up with? I guarantee you Colt McCoy has more of them.

Do you believe there was any other back who could have delivered maybe a bit less productiveness but was less prone to RZ turnovers that the Longhorns could have recruited/had in their backfield besides JC?

No. Please give me a name in JC’s class that could do what he did before I consider this. People with Charles’ playmaking ability are rare.

Charles was a big loss in 2008, and our rushing attack showed it. The line in 2007 was actually worse and he still ran well. Like learned_hand said, there’s a heck of a lot of revisionist history here.

by TheElusiveShadow on Dec 2, 2009 10:40 AM CST up reply actions  

well,

Colt McCoy is… lets see…
43-7 = 36

Colt McCoy is +36

"I don't care if I have to run100 times or pass it 100 times...Whatever it takes to win is all that matters to me" -VY

by 2100 San Jac on Dec 1, 2009 10:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Jamaal Charles

Let’s see:

33-6 = 27

+27.

Is that sound logic?

(Hint: It’s not. What’s under discussion is not the W-L of the players, but what they bring to the table that results in those.)

by TheElusiveShadow on Dec 2, 2009 10:35 AM CST up reply actions  

hint:

it wasn’t a serious post.

"I don't care if I have to run100 times or pass it 100 times...Whatever it takes to win is all that matters to me" -VY

by 2100 San Jac on Dec 2, 2009 10:20 PM CST up reply actions  

My bad.

I get riled up defending Charles.

by TheElusiveShadow on Dec 4, 2009 5:40 AM CST up reply actions  

I see. Thanks for the clarification. I too am obviously a huge fan of what JC did for us. I think I’m done here.

by UT_BKC on Dec 1, 2009 2:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Never Hoped That

Colt had a great freshman year, then suffered through his sophomore jinx (largely due to an inexperienced offensive line, hmm, just like OU this year).

Chiles was a great unknown, Colt suffered through injury (Bradford?) and still pulled off a 10-3 season (what’s OU’s record this year?).

So much of it is the supporting cast around them. The underlying premise of my post is that all things being equal I’d rather have the better ball protector with sufficient talent with touches and in the game than the guy capable of explosives but excessive mistakes.

by RMHorn on Dec 1, 2009 1:56 PM CST up reply actions  

On that, I think we'd all agree

The issue many of us took was the player you used to highlight that point didn’t appear to fit your thesis well – at least to a majority of us.

Would I also like a (healthy) Selvin Young type on the roster who could do all the little things well but still provide a consistent running game? Certainly, and Newton may yet turn into that player.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on Dec 1, 2009 2:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Can you clarify what these excessive mistakes are?

The Great Injustice is the 2007 RRR fumble. Outside of that, what mistakes did he make to put the team in jeopardy of losing the game, or that actually did cost us the game? His contributions are well documented: he averaged over six yards per carry over his career (we should appreciate this even more now), scored 39 TD’s, and singlehandedly won or kept us in many games during Colt’s developmental years. What are the mistakes that negate all of that production?

If you're so sure of what it ain't, how about telling us what it am!

by circa1015 on Dec 1, 2009 2:48 PM CST up reply actions  

McCoy wasn't really bad that year

I thought it was pretty obvious that his line let him down. I DO remember a couple of my friends thinking that Chiles should go in, but I made fun of them and predicted that Colt McCoy would win the Heisman the next year. I was wrong, but not by a lot.

"I don't care if I have to run100 times or pass it 100 times...Whatever it takes to win is all that matters to me" -VY

by 2100 San Jac on Dec 1, 2009 10:36 PM CST up reply actions  

You think that Jamaal would have cost us a game last year?

I think if he had come back we would have gone undefeated, and I’m pretty confidant about that. There is no way any team would have been able to slow down last year’s offense if you added Jamaal Charles to the mix, and he would’ve added a lot in terms of clock control and balance (besides his explosive talent). Yeah, he has put the ball on the ground a few times, and you can blame the OU loss on him because he was the last player of many to make a mistake in that game, but the points that he was responsible for more than make up for it.

If you're so sure of what it ain't, how about telling us what it am!

by circa1015 on Dec 1, 2009 12:40 PM CST reply actions  

Yes

Look, last season didn’t leave much room to be better. One play with a few seconds left in the game and it’s an NC. Not much upside potential with him in the huddle, a lot of downside. Just that fact alone means he had more potential to do harm than good.

by RMHorn on Dec 1, 2009 1:02 PM CST up reply actions  

We must've been watching a different running back for three years

And we were damn good at our one dimension, but we were a one-dimensional offense. A lot of the struggling early this season was due to the fact that our offense was learning how to be balanced. You don’t think that adding JC would’ve vastly improved the running game last year? He certainly wasn’t “a lot of downside” when he was helping Texas win in the ‘shoe and win a NC as a freshman, or helping open the field up for Colt his freshman year, or helping carry the team in 2007 when Colt couldn’t get any protection. You seem to be keying on these very isolated instances where JC fumbles and using them to paint a very distorted picture of how valuable the guy was.

If you're so sure of what it ain't, how about telling us what it am!

by circa1015 on Dec 1, 2009 2:16 PM CST up reply actions  

IMHO, Wasn't Very Isolated

A point I made in one of these comments was that Charles and Simms both carry a similar burden to their Longhorn legacy. Both were key parts in the success their teams enjoyed. Both had amazing games with amazing stats and delivered great winning seasons, of the kind we had missed on the 40 Acres during the years that preceded them.

But championships are earned by teams that have the same caliber of talent that UT has been blessed with under Mack but make fewer mistakes. JC and CS both delivered in the games they should have, but faltered in the big games, making critical mistakes. At least in 2005 Texas had VY to go with JC in the backfield and were able to overcome any mistakes JC was responsible for. After VY with a young QB at the helm and an inexperienced line UT still had great seasons, just not championship ones. And before VY, CS had great seasons, just not championship ones. And the few losses they suffered could be largely traced back to costly RZ turnovers by both JC and CS.

Yes, they gave us great wins – the roll the dice theory again shows you can come up big when you take on risk, but you can lose to. The less risky the better, IMHO, when you already have a solid, quality team around you and don’t need to roll the dice as often.

by RMHorn on Dec 1, 2009 2:27 PM CST up reply actions  

We didn't have much room to be better?

We were relying on Colt to be a robot on completions. Not much to improve on his standpoint, but a lot to improve from the running game standpoint.

by TheElusiveShadow on Dec 1, 2009 5:11 PM CST up reply actions  

But We've Only Lost Once Since JC Gone

Don’t care about who was needed where to do what to win the games. The fact is the games were won without JC. If you add him to the mix in the backfield does he make the difference in the TTU game? Perhaps. But does he adversely make the difference in one or two of the other games? Perhaps as well. That’s the nature of a player who has a mistake propensity mixed with a game-breaking propensity; it could go either way.

And with that being a toss-up in my estimation there is more downside risk than upside risk to having JC or a similarly afflicted RB on the team – in my estimation. The poll results tell me that 100 fans disagree with me and only 5 agree. Oh well, I still have my perspective and don’t mind being in a small minority.

by RMHorn on Dec 1, 2009 5:57 PM CST up reply actions  

whoa

bq.But We’ve Only Lost Once Since JC Gone

That is a completely unfair connection to make. Is our program better off without Sweed, Okam, or Finley? They’ve only lost once since they left, so they must’ve been holding the team back right? There is absolutely no correlation between UT’s success the last two years and JC’s absence.

If you're so sure of what it ain't, how about telling us what it am!

by circa1015 on Dec 1, 2009 6:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Whoa! No Correlation Intended

Sorry not clearer. My point was that there’s only 1 game in the past two years that we lost. There’s not much upside from that, that’s pretty darn stellar. Would JC being on the team have won that game and lost none of the other games we did win?

Don’t read that much into the statement, no connection other than the speculative value of what JC could have done to enhance the team since his departure. If you only count wins, not statistics or game plans/schemes, there’s been only one opportunity he would have had to make it better. But there have been twenty four opportunities he could have made it worse. That means not much upside, a bunch of downside.

by RMHorn on Dec 1, 2009 7:02 PM CST up reply actions  

The same could be said for any player

If Jerry Rice in his prime played for us then this is true:

If you only count wins, not statistics or game plans/schemes, there’s been only one opportunity he would have had to make it better. But there have been twenty four opportunities he could have made it worse. That means not much upside, a bunch of downside.

Boy am I glad we did not have him on those teams, too much downside.

by Wells on Dec 1, 2009 9:03 PM CST up reply actions  

By this logic

We wouldn’t even want Vince Young back.

by TheElusiveShadow on Dec 2, 2009 10:42 AM CST up reply actions  

Yes he’s got butter hands, but he’s also an incredible runner. The times that he’s been a boon to his team far outnumber the lost balls.

Let’s realize as well that Colt McCoy has not done a great job of protecting the ball on his scrambles this year – yet because Texas has been destroying its opponents, there hasn’t been a concern about this. Rest assured that if the competition was closer, there’d be a LOT of attention on Colt’s lost fumbles. (I can’t find the stats on this exact number… any ideas?)

by TXinDC on Dec 1, 2009 12:56 PM CST reply actions  

Timing, Location of Turnovers, Not Quantity

Love to see the state of Colt’s entire career where he threw and interception or fumbled in the red zone. And narrow that down further to turnovers in close games. Honestly can’t think of many, if any.

by RMHorn on Dec 1, 2009 1:03 PM CST up reply actions  

So only redzone turnovers are bad? Throwing interceptions or fumbling the ball inside thier own 30 to give them an easy TD or FG is better?

by UT_BKC on Dec 1, 2009 1:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Oh, C'mon!

Everyone knows that RZ turnovers hurt far more than turnovers on other parts of the field. Blowing it in the RZ means either points being scored against you or points you fail to score. Turnovers in the rest of the field means losing a field position advantage but you still have a buffer to recover from scoreboard consequences. Yes, all turnovers are bad. But RZ turnovers are more consequential to the outcome of a game.

by RMHorn on Dec 1, 2009 1:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Turnovers on exactly the 50 yard line are the most consequential to the outcome of a game.

Because it takes exactly 50 yards that the offense had, and gives it to the defense.

The proof is in the pudding. And the pudding is on the internet.

by BoddickerIsClutch on Dec 1, 2009 3:56 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I think you need to clarify.

RZ turnovers are when you are in your RZ and turn the ball over.

If you are refering to turning the ball over when you are 5 yards in the opponents RZ, then we are talking about the same thing. McCoy has turned the ball over plenty of times inside the opponents 20.

And no, it’s not all about where the int/fumble took place. A pick six hurts a lot more than giving them the ball and asking them to go 20. Please show me facts that prove that throwing 50 yard pick sixes are better than giving them the ball inside the 20.

by UT_BKC on Dec 1, 2009 1:43 PM CST up reply actions  

I can't believe this even came up....

Every great running back (and Charles was one of the best at UT, IMO, at least in the past 10 years), fumbles the ball. They usually do it because they carry the ball alot , are often gang-tackled, and are trying to break tackles and gain an extra yard or so, not because they are careless. The ones we remember are those in crucial situations in tight games. Hasn’t McCoy fumbled the ball near the goal-line this year? Didn’t Ricky Williams and Earl Campbell fumble on occasion? I think Charles won us alot more games than he cost us, and I was very sorry he left UT early.

"Only angry people win football games." --DKR

by OBdoc on Dec 1, 2009 12:59 PM CST reply actions  

His Quote After His Fumble This Weekend Too Familiar

I just read it and it sounded wayyy to familiar, then went back and found the game quotes from 2007 that pretty much verbatim. It’s his flaw, the burden he bears in his game that he just hasn’t been able to fix. Is why I made this Fan Post.

by RMHorn on Dec 1, 2009 2:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Early Returns

RMHorn is on an opinion island, a contrarian on BON – go figure! :)

by RMHorn on Dec 1, 2009 1:05 PM CST reply actions  

I'll chime in for RMHorn here...

Charles had a problem with putting the ball on the ground. They brought in Earl Campbell to talk to him about it.

While it may be easy to say Jamaal was a net positive, some people are unduly incredulous when his fumble issue was brought up.

Even Davis was quoted about calling plays for him around to the outside, because he couldn’t be trusted to hang onto the ball consistenly running up the middle.

Don’t act like there wasn’t a problem/issue brought up repeatedly that season.

by notsofst on Dec 1, 2009 1:09 PM CST reply actions  

And Still Does

For many guys it simply can’t be coached out of them. Has Simms’ NFL career surprised ANY Longhorn fan? Just like in college he has been at his worst in the NFL when in the red zone. He’s got a “tell” in his coverage look-offs that opposing defenses can pick up on with a short field to defend. And he doesn’t protect the ball when under pressure in the pocket. He’s never learned at any step of the way, no matter how big an arm he has or what he does from 20 yard line to 20 yard line. No coaching has been able to fix that.

Same with Charles, to wit his NFL challenges with the Chiefs that are a continuation of his college mistakes. No coaching has been able to fix that.

On the other hand, Vince Young had a big problem in his first year starting at QB. I remember several games, particularly the game against Arkansas, where I was screaming at the TV for him to protect the ball. Too often he’d take off on runs carrying the ball like a loaf of bread, just waiting to be smacked away by a defender he didn’t see. And it eventually happened and hurt us. But he learned to protect it. Coaches were able to get him to fix it sufficiently, albeit not perfectly, to be a champion.

by RMHorn on Dec 1, 2009 1:18 PM CST up reply actions  

And guess what, he still does it. He fumbled the ball 10 yards from the redzone this past Sunday because he just holds the ball in his hand instead of tucking it. He also occassionally tries to do to much with his feet. That cost the Titans 3 points. If the Titans had lost that game, everyone would have been all over VY for those 2 moments.

You are picking 1 bad circumstance and saying the rest of his career he was more harm to the team than good. You aren’t even considering the games he won for us all by himself.

Yes, he played in the first half against OSU that we ‘lost’ as you said, but he only had 8 carries and still managed to get 7 of our 14 points. McCoy threw a pick six early in that game, by the way, while JC didn’t fumble.

Same situation in the Neb game. McCoy throws in int and does nothing the rest of the game. JC only gets 10 carries in the first half. We decide to hand him the ball 23 times in the second half and he explodes for 3 TDs.

That bad season gets a lot worse without JC.

by UT_BKC on Dec 1, 2009 1:38 PM CST up reply actions  

He also didn’t fumble in the Neb game.

by UT_BKC on Dec 1, 2009 1:39 PM CST up reply actions  

These Forums Are Great Because We Can Kick Around Our Opinions

I put this Fan Post out there just for this kind of discussion. I’m glad you’re participating and sharing your thoughts and opinions. There’s no way for either of us to scientifically, unquestionably prove our contentions. I’ve got my own preconceptions of what it takes to be a champion and you have yours.

I give priority to not making mistakes at crucial times or in critical parts of the field. Especially true when two squads are evenly matched. I don’t think you need explosive playmakers with an unfortunate propensity to make game-changing errors so much as you need consistent game managers – when you already have a talented team around you. It’s the less talented ones that need to compensate by taking those kinds of chances with those kinds of players. Those kinds players in ball-handling positions can be responsible for spectacular wins or losses.

You don’t seem to give much emphasis to that part of a player’s game. Just a difference in opinion, but I enjoy the debate; sport is great debate fodder among fans like us :)

by RMHorn on Dec 1, 2009 1:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Actually, it is very easy to quantify the value of JC

although I don’t have the resources nor the desire to try and prove something that shouldn’t have to be evaluated in the first place. Maybe somebody who is a stat guru can enlighten us?

If you're so sure of what it ain't, how about telling us what it am!

by circa1015 on Dec 1, 2009 2:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Crap. I was typing and my post got deleted.

The games we lost that year:
Kstate – Colt threw FOUR ints. FOUR. No fumbles.
OU – yes, a large part of it was JC’s fumble. He shoulder’s a lot of the blame. However, it’s not entirely his fault. 1) Colt throws a pick at the 28 when we’re going in to tie it. 2) The D did not step up that game. We held OU to 28 but didn’t cause any TOs.
A&M – Colt accounted for both of the fumbles that game along with an INT

So if you REALLY look at those games, JC played a big part in only one of those losses (with his mistakes). You should retitle this post to say “Is McCoy a net negative: he cost us 2.5 games in 07 and 1 in 08.” Then you should read that title to yourself and realize it’s absurdity. Then realize the same applies to saying that about JC.

by UT_BKC on Dec 1, 2009 2:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Thank you

for looking this up. In 2007,JC had ONE fumble that could in any way be tied to a loss. He SINGLE-HANDEDLY won two games that year. How could he possibly be considered a net-negative? Evidently, he was more a postive than Colt.

Disciplina Praesidium Civitatis.

by zamm on Dec 1, 2009 2:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Actually, I’m done after this. Our other 3 loss season, during Colt’s Fr year:
tOSU – 1 fumble by a TE. Selvin and JC split time. JC had 70 yrds on 16 carreis and 43 rec
Kstate – 1 fumble each by JC and SY. Both costly. He had 2 of our 5 rushing TDs. (wow, forgot Ogbonnaya played in this game and scored)
A&M – no fumbles. JC had our 1 TD that kept us in the game

by UT_BKC on Dec 1, 2009 2:43 PM CST up reply actions  

LAUGHABLE

2009 NFL Stats:
Jamaal Charles has 3 TDs and 1 fumble on 104 touches (78 carries, 26 catches) = 1 TD every 35 touches, 1 fumble every 104

Adrian Peterson has 12 TDs and 6 fumbles on 257 touches (230 carries, 27 catches) = 1 TD every 21 touches, 1 fumble every 42 touches

Simple comparison of extremes here, but I just want to point out how idiotic this article is after Jamaal’s first fumble of 2009. If anything I would say Jamaal has much improved his ball security since college and his comments have been consistent with a genuine focus on improving in this area. The simple fact is EVERYONE FUMBLES and the more times you touch the ball the more likely you are to have a fumble. The only solution is to make sure you keep your FUMBLE RATE down and try to avoid fumbles in key situations (but that seems impossible because almost every fumble becomes a huge play).

Other than that you have to be happy with the the HUGE POSITIVES compared to the small negatives.

by Rashad1914 on Dec 1, 2009 4:09 PM CST reply actions  

Plus

The above didn’t include Jamaal’s 33 kickoff returns for 1 TD, 0 fumbles, and a 26.0 Avg (8th in the league).

THAT is a HUGE POSITIVE

by Rashad1914 on Dec 1, 2009 4:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Every fumble JC had is forgiven for this run

Link
He runs past a guy with a 4 yard head start and an angle. And yes, that’s 7 orange jerseys chasing him when he crosses the goal line.

"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo

by run Bevo run on Dec 1, 2009 11:54 PM CST reply actions  

JC has fumbled three times in his professional career

Mistakes happen. Drew Brees has thrown 9 interceptions and a number of fumbles this season.

If a game is decided with a fumble in the 2nd quarter the team that fumbles didn’t really have a chance to begin with. JC had 140+ yards against the Chargers. Not only was his presence a net positive it was just about the only one for the Chiefs in a 43-14 blow out.

As to his Longhorns career, are you really asking if the guy that had 1600+ yards and 23 touchdowns essentially carrying a mediocre Texas club to 10 wins was a positive because he fumbled on the second play against Rice and in the third quarter against OU?

by 40AS on Dec 2, 2009 8:47 PM CST reply actions  

Hey now

While the theory I think is a little out there, this fanpost is not 1 line long, has proper capitalization, spelling, sentence and paragraph structure. Which makes it in the top 50% of fanposts.

by Wells on Dec 3, 2009 1:39 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

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