UT Faculty Council Criticizes Mack Brown's Raise
The University of Texas Faculty Council voted 23-15 in favor of a resolution criticizing Mack Brown's $2 million raise as "unseemly and inappropriate." The December 14th meeting was called to discuss the Report of the Intercollegiate Athletics Council, which you can read here. Because the Council lacked a quorum, the resolution condemning Brown's raise was unofficial.
Because it was unofficial, [Council President Janet Staiger] allowed voting by others attending the meeting, including campus administrators, most of whom voted against the resolution. [UT President William] Powers abstained.
"College sports is widely viewed as an out-of-control train on a collision course with academia," said David Hillis, a professor of integrative biology. "Right now, UT is stoking this train to make it run ever faster."
My feelings on the issue are mixed. On the one hand, I don't find Brown's raise terribly problematic. However, that has everything to do with factors particularly related to the University of Texas Athletics Department. To the extent that Brown's raise fuels an "arms race" that looks, in my view, unsustainable over the long-term, for the vast majority of FCS schools, it raises legitimate concerns. Whether, and to what extent, you think that's 'not our problem,' should probably inform how much you worry about something like this.
[For a lighter view of the issue, check out our good friend Rob Lunn's take over at The Fat White Guy.]
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As an academic, I'm pretty uncomfortable with the tone of the rhetoric in the link you posted.
UT athletics is not alone in being an independant, highly profitable auxilary of the university. It is singular in how profitable it has become. The University places restrictions on salaries for such auxilary agencies (UTIMCO, J.J. Pickle Research Campus, on-campus research facilities, among others) even when funding is entirely external. It appears that administration asserts no such control over the Department of Athletics and I beleive the question of whether this is appropriate is warranted outside of the scope of its effect on the “arms race”.
I should add, I haven’t formed an opinion on this, but I do think its worth a discussion.
The swine flu takes a Will Muschamp shot every September.
by pleaseplaykindle on Dec 15, 2009 3:20 PM CST reply actions
Rob Lunn
Almost everything he writes is tongue-in-cheek, so I wouldn’t read more into it than what it is.
You ain't hurt.
I guessed (hoped?) as much.
The swine flu takes a Will Muschamp shot every September.
by pleaseplaykindle on Dec 15, 2009 3:24 PM CST up reply actions
*should have guessed as much
The swine flu takes a Will Muschamp shot every September.
by pleaseplaykindle on Dec 15, 2009 3:24 PM CST up reply actions
eh fuck ’em. the athletics dept can spend what it makes.
by Displaced Longhorn on Dec 15, 2009 3:25 PM CST reply actions
Agree.
Isn’t this just market forces at work? I know academic-types hate it, but it’s the way the world works.
Market forces at work also means that when athletic programs are not self-sustaining, we cancel them, right?
Intercollegiate athletics is not, as most would suggest, anything like a free market.
See here:
Few programs are self-sufficient. Two of every five I-A athletics programs said they operated in the black in 2001. But take away state and school subsidies, and only 6% were profitable."(emphasis mine).
The swine flu takes a Will Muschamp shot every September.
by pleaseplaykindle on Dec 15, 2009 4:09 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
That's the key
And hence my mixed feelings: Not a problem for UT, one of the few that’s profitable, but to the extent the rich are leading the rest off a cliff, it could be a problem that everyone feels.
You ain't hurt.
This is another question I have:
Has UT Athletics always been self-sustaining? I’m not old enough to be able to have first-hand knowledge, perhaps someone here can point me to a reference? It seems that behaving as if we will always generate 5x expenditure in revenue might be short-sighted (see: Texas A&M).
In any case, my biggest concern about unregulated staff salaries (in any department) is that at the end of the day, The University is financially responsible for the solvency of its football program -which is currently turning absurd amounts of profit - but if that should change, administration is sitll responsible for making sure that it does not go under. Which is why I ask the question: have things always been this good here? Because they definitely are not at most other places around the country.
The swine flu takes a Will Muschamp shot every September.
by pleaseplaykindle on Dec 15, 2009 4:22 PM CST up reply actions
That was not meant to be struck through.
The swine flu takes a Will Muschamp shot every September.
by pleaseplaykindle on Dec 15, 2009 4:22 PM CST up reply actions
To answer your "arms race"
From the same article:
No proof of an athletics-spending “arms race.” Spending increases in football and basketball by one or more members of a conference did not bring significant increases by other member schools. Once more, that takes only operating expenses into account, and the report noted “an arms race could potentially exist in capital spending” — which many athletics officials believe is the case. Jim Isch, NCAA chief financial officer, acknowledges not using capital expenditure is a “significant hole.”
The swine flu takes a Will Muschamp shot every September.
by pleaseplaykindle on Dec 15, 2009 4:26 PM CST up reply actions
it is a problem
and it fuels the arms race. While Texas may not suffer for it other schools will, or rather other student athletes will. You can look back no further than Iowa State’s elimination of their 100-year old baseball program to pay Dan McCarney’s salary. You’re going to see a lot more of that in the next year or two as state budgets hammer away at education, and education hammers away at athletics.
If UT were in the private sector, it would make a lot of sense. Economically speaking, there aren’t many people who are as successful as Mack Brown, and because he’s a rare commodity, he’s worth every penny.
But it’s not the private sector. Texas fans/alumni can rationalize this all day long as is evident from the posts here. Unfortunately, you don’t exist in a vacuum. You know damned well that agents will be working the phones, and working the raises.
That it’s a bad idea doesn’t have anything to do with faculty, really. In fact, if you look at tuition costs, they’re out of line as well, and probably a lot of that has to do with how much faculty is making these days.
This system is unsustainable.
Go Big Red Nebraska!
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by Jon Johnston on Dec 15, 2009 6:42 PM CST up reply actions
I'm with you on this one
The faculty has nothing to do with the argument. They have the right premise but the wrong argument.
Faculty are involved in public service. Certain amounts of public funds are available to pay them and raise them at any particular point in time. Funds are not currently available, or at least it’s deemed so at the highest level. Such is the nature of academia and public service.
The real question is whether large coaching salaries provide an unfair competitive advantage. You’re damned right they do. And to say, ’Well, we can afford it, to heck with the other schools" smacks of elitism. Let them eat bread, too.
That combined with ‘Tell the FC to sit down and STFU’ is not a valid argument.
by SpiritOfTheFedora on Dec 15, 2009 8:02 PM CST up reply actions
So if 6% are profitable, and the rest get cancelled...
Will we need a playoff, or can we round robin the 8 remaining teams and keep the BCS?
by BoddickerIsClutch on Dec 15, 2009 4:22 PM CST up reply actions
I bet the BCS folks would still be against a playoff with 8 teams left.
Hilarious, btw.
The swine flu takes a Will Muschamp shot every September.
by pleaseplaykindle on Dec 15, 2009 4:24 PM CST up reply actions
The athletics dept should respond to this resolution.
By cancelling the checks for all the millions donated back to academics every year.
Not true
Powers cited more than $6 million that has been poured into academics in the last few years. The athletics department has intentionally spent this money on academics in an attempt to shut up the professors, who will never be happy.
Watch out, I bite.
by EddieTheAlbinoSquirrel on Dec 15, 2009 10:02 PM CST up reply actions
DAVID HILLIS????
THE David Hillis of Integrated Biology fame? Holy shit, UT landed him? When did this happen? Have I been out of the loop? I mean, I was out of town last week but didnt know he was on the 40 acres. Is he teaching too? What a get. This is really going to put us on the map as far as integrated biology is concerned.
Did yall read his last published piece? Of course you did. Who am I kidding. It was the one where he studied how biomechanics and morphology shape the way an animal’s skeleton develops and how that may have driven the animal’s evolution. I tried to get tickets to his speech when he took his findings on tour, and ticketmaster sold out in like 20 seconds. StubHub had a pair of seats for $1500, but I just didnt have the coin after seeing Univ of Illinois’ Dr. Carol Augspurger at the Erwin Center. Nosebleed seats, holla!
by the other Andrew on Dec 15, 2009 3:59 PM CST reply actions 9 recs
Hillis is a well-respected guy
and has a right to express his opinion. UT fans and alumni should be proud to have good faculty members.
+1
Good point on the “unsustainable arms race” aspect.
Absolutely Ridiculous
Exactly 0 dollars of UT’s funding go towards Mack’s salary. What the FC is really criticizing is UT’s fans and alumni for providing the resources to fairly compensate a uniquely talented individual. Well, FC, I don’t need you telling me or any longhorn fan how to spend our money. The longhorn football program raises the entire university’s profile, particularly among potential students. Students, who, in turn apply to and enter the university thereby paying the FC’s salary. So please, FC, sit down and STFU.
"Stats are for losers, I like winning games"
". . .switzer is a cracked out bitch . . ."-osu poster
by 98horn on Dec 15, 2009 4:10 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
We don’t have to pay top dollar for a top tier coach. That’s fine. It’s a slippery slope, though.
Mack’s impact shouldn’t be understated here. $5 mm/year is a fraction of what he generates for this University. The money he generates through football basically pays for the rest of the athletic program. Which means the University doesn’t have to feed it money year in and year out. Which in turns clears up room in the budget for other things around campus.
I can understand why professors are frustrated, but you get what you pay for. And, whether they’ll admit it or not, they benefit from his presence at UT.
Exactly right ...
Plus all the new students, football recruits, university interest … etc. Plus, they are giving money to the university, as well.
"I've always been an admirer of Texas' clock management. Now, I am completely sold." -- Les Miles
by Distributor of the Football on Dec 16, 2009 8:12 AM CST up reply actions
H eeeeeearns it !
When I joined the Longhorn Foundation in 1996, there were less than 40k season tickets sold, and Texas struggled annually to crack the top 10. Now season ticket sales are over 85,000 and Texas is consistently in the MNC discussion. Texas is pulling in huge revenue and a lot of it can be attributed to Mack.
That said, Mack isn’t going anywhere, I’m not sure why they went from $3M to $5M. I’m more concerned about Muschamp, I think he is getting paid about $925k. Why not a cool $1M ? He is worth every penny ! I don’t want him even thinking about going elsewhere.
I'll go serious for a second here
Is Muschamp really worth a million? We honestly don’t know. We know he can coach defense, he has a track record of that. But can he do everything else that goes along with being a head coach.
I think the “arms race” has more to do with paying exorbitant salaries to unknown commodities. Guys like Saban, Brown, Carroll, Stoops, & Tressel are worth their price tag, but that doesnt mean whoever coaches after them should make their same salary.
by the other Andrew on Dec 15, 2009 4:47 PM CST up reply actions
Fair enough.
One thing I admire about the University of Texas is they don’t have Richard Brodhead as their president. What an unethical train wreck that “man” is. He should not be a president of what was once a major university (Duke). He should be breaking rocks into gravel and wearing an orange jumpsuit on a chain gang.
Just because I'm an occasional to frequent troll, doesn't mean I lack a heart or don't have a point. Rocky Top Talk blog ban: I did it for teh lulz.
unknown commodities
this parallels the problems of unsustainability in professional sports that guarantee $40 to rookies. They’ve already learned the horrors of escalation, and the phenomenon is beginning to hit college football.
My experience is that human beings almost never learn from history, as is evidenced by the near-sighted thinking of all those on this thread screaming “He’s worth it – STFU!”
by BrooklynHorn on Dec 15, 2009 5:59 PM CST up reply actions
After seeing results for 2 years
I would seriously pay him $1M per year for him to coach defense forever. The head coach in waiting stuff….who knows ? But he’s definitely a proven commodity as D Coordinator.
All this concern about an arms race reminds me ...
This is our system. It’s foolish, and actually outrageous, to ask U.T. to “self-regulate” within a system where the market is purportedly allowed to work. We can argue about the amount of Mack’s raise. But if he is worth it, some one else will offer it. I don’t think we have to worry about the Mike Shermans of the world holding every one hostage.
Where are those academics who taught economics? What are we looking at … a holdout by Turner Gill because he want’s 5 mill?
Bottom line: Texas athletic dept. can (with U.T. regent approval) pay Mack what it wants. If this upsets Nebraska, then hold the line boys and tell Pelini that he’s gotta have 10 10-win seasons in a row and then you will talk.
I guess because the BCS is a wacky system some of these academics would like for Texas to allow TCU to go in our place to Pasadena? No, we played by the rules and the system rewarded Texas. Last year it didn’t.
It’s foolhardy to ask us to fix a supposed problem on our own. It hurts Texas and doesn’t help other programs.
"I've always been an admirer of Texas' clock management. Now, I am completely sold." -- Les Miles
by Distributor of the Football on Dec 16, 2009 8:20 AM CST up reply actions
Fine, then academics can kindly refund that $6.6 million
Cash or check are acceptable forms of payment. There will be $35 fee assessed for returned checks.
"If you kick like that, you can wear a tutu for all I care."
by SunriseStudly on Dec 15, 2009 5:41 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
University Lands nets and unreal amount of money every quarter.
It seems as if the faculty has no idea.
University Lands http://www.utlands.utsystem.edu/
I personally have worked many wells over the years and can give a general idea as to how much they can produce.
University 20-16 #1 40 MCF
" Answers -- Become Resources."
Without Questions; There are limited Resources...
The faculty can get mad and that's fine....
I did get a little bit tired of the few professors that were nothing more than “football haters” as far as I was concerned. I didn’t enjoy their class or their personality obviously.
However, we always like to point out, we’re not the SEC. We’re Texas. We do take pride in our academics and the fact that we are the best public university in the region. Mack and his wife, Sally, take pride in the university as they endowed a “chair” along with the athletics dept. for $2.65 million last year. The faculty sure have a short-term memory as they didn’t mention that or the $6.6 million contributed to academics from athletics last year either.
At the end of the day, Mack will probably need to endow another chair, scholarship or help build an academic building to make some of them happy and who knows then?….One way or another, Hook’em!
good point but ...
Many of them won’t ever be happy.
"I've always been an admirer of Texas' clock management. Now, I am completely sold." -- Les Miles
by Distributor of the Football on Dec 16, 2009 8:21 AM CST up reply actions
I hate gray area situations
I can see valid arguments on both sides of this issue and I really hate when that happens.
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
Bingo.
Now, lets hash out this issue on the internets.
The swine flu takes a Will Muschamp shot every September.
by pleaseplaykindle on Dec 15, 2009 6:55 PM CST up reply actions
general thoughts on UT finances
I can see both sides of the issue. On one hand, the athletics department brings in a lot of money and this raise doesn’t cost UT anything directly. They pay their dues to the academic area, so the university benefits from the success of the football team. Also consider that UT makes a lot of money from licensing (t-shirts, hats, anything with a longhorns logo) and a lot of that revenue is driven by the success of the football and basketball teams.
On the other hand, Powers has completely turned his back on UT staff… for those that don’t know, he sent out an email explaining that even though the university was spending more money than last year, it could not afford to include staff raises in the budget (despite the fact that there were raises the previous year, when the budget was lower). He expressed a need to recruit and keep the best faculty members with the available funds. (Good luck keeping them when the email servers crash and the AC stops working, and nobody is around to fix them). So it’s kind of a slap in the face when he turns around and supports a salary increase for one particular staff member.
Then, more recently he sent another email explaining that he had worked out a deal to free up more money ($7 million), but, again, it would not be used to compensate the staff. Instead, they would be using it on “faculty support.”
So, in a perfect world, it would be nice if UT’s faculty would express a little support for the people that keep the place running, instead of worrying about Mack’s salary which is essentially self-funded. And, it would be nice if Coach Brown would step up and say something on the matter. I’m not suggesting some kind of Robin Hood arrangement, just that he has the ear of the regents and president, and could probably exert his influence in some way. A few comments here and there in the press could make a huge PR nightmare for the administration.
Football is not the only thing that brings money to UT, FYI:
Research Funds Obtained in 2009: $596 million
Applied Research Laboratories: $928 million (over 10 years)
Lets calm down about the $6.6 million.
The swine flu takes a Will Muschamp shot every September.
by pleaseplaykindle on Dec 15, 2009 7:06 PM CST reply actions
And also, probably about the $5 million to Mack.
The swine flu takes a Will Muschamp shot every September.
by pleaseplaykindle on Dec 15, 2009 7:06 PM CST up reply actions
Not required
The AD can do as it please with the money it generates, and Mack Brown definitely deserves the raise; however, I don’t see that there was an economic need to do so. He has no intention of leaving UT for somewhere else at his current salary, so there was no reason to incentivize the situation. As for Muschamp, he’s basically being paid an average of head coach (~$2M) and DC (~$500k). I think it’s a bit steep to pay him that much, but 1) he’s probably worth it after our revolving door of DC’s, and 2) it was probably necessary to keep other programs from poaching him. Once Muschamp becomes HC, I assume he’ll be paid $2-$3M with various bonuses, but I wouldn’t think he’d start at $5M. As for the $5M, Mack should give it back to UT in his name…either as another endowed chair, funds for building and infrastructure, etc…it’d be good PR all around.
The pride and winning tradition of The University of Texas will not be entrusted to the weak or the timid.
Hook'em
I would love to see Mack...
Spend at least some of that $5 million on a giant statue of a man flipping the bird with both hands at the building where most of the voters in this farce work, then endow another chair, and call it the “Eat that motherf***ers!” Professorship.
Just because I'm an occasional to frequent troll, doesn't mean I lack a heart or don't have a point. Rocky Top Talk blog ban: I did it for teh lulz.
The Vincent Young Chair of Western American Studies
The swine flu takes a Will Muschamp shot every September.
by pleaseplaykindle on Dec 15, 2009 8:05 PM CST up reply actions
Give it back.
Mack Brown should demonstrate his character and his love for this University by simply refusing the pay raise. The faculty would be pleased and the students as well. It would just make the members of the board look like idiots. Of course, he would stand to lose 2 million, but seriously, making three million dollars a year, and thats not enough? I guess he needs a yacht, four sports cars, you get the picture.
I’ll also argue that he deserves tenure, like most professors, but a more realistic one.
College Football is a business. And its a big racket. Its far removed from the academic world of college. Its time we realize that and take action. Create strict rules on academic standards in recruiting (the current ones are nowhere near strict enough). Lower the draft requirements for the NFL and the NBA.
Ironic that a few days after Alabama declared that they would cancel three days of class so that the students could “recover” from the BCS game (I’m supposing they assume that they’ll beat us and be celebrating, no they wont!!!), Texas does this.
Its clear what these two teams at the top of the college football pyramid scheme are saying. Football first. Academics second. And thats sad.
In defense of UA...
It is a very fair assumption the Tide will roll over the Longhorns in Pasadena. The defense is better, the offense is better against top-ranked teams, and they destroyed a much better team than Nebraska in their conference title game. I think three days for travel and hangover after the 13th National Title win is more than fair.
Just because I'm an occasional to frequent troll, doesn't mean I lack a heart or don't have a point. Rocky Top Talk blog ban: I did it for teh lulz.
I take this about as seriously
As I take your claim of 73 national titles. I fully expect Bama to claim an 86th title, regardless of the game’s outcome.
You ain't hurt.
by Peter Bean on Dec 15, 2009 9:12 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Yea...
86th titles, Bear Bryant was on the Mount Suribachi Flag Raising Team, Nick Saban had relations with Sandra Bullock, and on and on.
"All the white meat is gone. There's nothin' but necks on the platter." Darrell K. Royal
Bama . . .
. . . claims a championship for a year in which the Tide finished 20th in the AP!
I asked on the Tide blog how this could be, and the answer was that a championship was retroactively claimed in the 1980s, on the flimsiest of grounds, so that Alabama could claim that it had more titles than Notre Dame.
by Hopkins Horn on Dec 15, 2009 10:26 PM CST up reply actions
I suppose...
That makes up for the Missing Ring in 1966, when Alabama destroyed everybody, was the two-time defending champion, and were denied a national title by the AP because the governor was a bigot and a showboat, and The Bear was being, well, bearish and boorish. Either way, that’s twelve rings.
Just because I'm an occasional to frequent troll, doesn't mean I lack a heart or don't have a point. Rocky Top Talk blog ban: I did it for teh lulz.
Typical UT fan...
Functionally illiterate, and cannot see the difference between a “7” and a “1”. I love Longhorns. Those cows turn into the best damned steaks.
Just because I'm an occasional to frequent troll, doesn't mean I lack a heart or don't have a point. Rocky Top Talk blog ban: I did it for teh lulz.
I'll bite...
And treat this like it was a serious comment.
Maybe you missed the fact that the “illiterate” UT fan is the Editor of this blog. Or maybe exaggeration is lost on you.
Ah the Beergut of the SEC has arrived.
The swine flu takes a Will Muschamp shot every September.
by pleaseplaykindle on Dec 15, 2009 10:11 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Could Mack's raise be subterfuge?
A way of enticing Muschamp to hang around for a few years? “Hey Ma, look what I’ll be making if I stay.”
"All the white meat is gone. There's nothin' but necks on the platter." Darrell K. Royal
Same ol', same 'ol
I might take this “vote” more seriously if it were something new.
I was at Texas in the early to mid-90s. During the Mackovic era. There were no top-10 rankings. No big raises. No performance bonuses for the coaches. Attendance was low in the revenue-producing sports, and students didn’t wear burnt orange. The athletics department stayed in the black – somehow. But not with ease.
So were these same professors happy? Did they avoid complaining, since the AD budget was extremely modest, compared to today? Did they happily accept the coaches’ salaries, since raises were few and numbers were comparatively low?
NO. They sat around and bitched about the athletic department, same as they do now.
The football team establishes a “bring your favorite professor to spring game” tradition, complete with catered dinner. The athletic department gives significant money to academics, rather than stowing it in retained earnings (could this literally be unprecedented in college athletics??), the football coach and athletics department establish an endowed chair.
What’s more, the AD raises the profile of the school, brings in better academic recruits, directly results in better fundraising across all categories, and drives licensing revenues.
Does this make the professors happy?
No. They will never, ever, ever be happy. Ignore them.
Watch out, I bite.
by EddieTheAlbinoSquirrel on Dec 15, 2009 10:12 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
+1
"I've always been an admirer of Texas' clock management. Now, I am completely sold." -- Les Miles
by Distributor of the Football on Dec 16, 2009 8:26 AM CST up reply actions
Agree with concerns being raised
First, it really is useless to argue with someone who relies on the market forces at work mantra. The dilemma is clearly one of money vs. education. And while I concede that in today’s world a better education generally costs more money, it is important to keep a clear mind about our priorities, which speaks more of current societal trends. By the way, please do not tell me that selling 80,000 tickets gives the University greater exposure, which somehow ensures that more people apply for admission. This is simply asinine.
I enrolled in 1987, arguably one of the darkest periods in Texas football. I loved my college experience, and enjoyed everyone of the games where really all we had was Eric Metcalf — who was outstanding in his own right — but nothing of the athletic magnitude we enjoy now. My pride in the University stems from my education, and how it formed the foundation for my very survival, and productivity as a member of society. I earned two degrees from The University, and while its nice to speak of our football tradition, it pales in importance to what The University stands for, at least in my mind.
I love our football team (and really all that is UT), and wish the Horns a victory against the tide, but my pride in the University will remain forever strong, regardless of its athletic success. I think that there is a seriously substantive issue raised by the academia. The focus on ever-increasing salaries and the cost associated with everything college sports — including the price of tickets for games and merchandise — shows how we continue to become less interested in academics, generally in this country, and are more concerned about making the big bucks, at whatever cost, and in whatever fashion, and of course, make more of it, since a lot is seemingly not ever enough. Seriously folks, where is education in all this — why isn’t teacher pay (generally, especially in our public school environment) ever a winning argument for politicians? It speaks of a bigger issue, that cannot be fully addressed in one post. I have nothing against making a living in an honest fashion, and even without a formal education, but steadfastly adhere to the belief that education, with the right values, makes us better, in every sense of the word.
Suggestions? Many here will laugh, but here they are:
1. Require that if a scholarship college-athlete is ever going to be employed in professional sports (NFL, NBA etc.), an agreement be made where the professional ranks agree to not hire the athlete until a degree is earned. With the proper “coaching,” most athletes can earn a degree, even if without academic distinction. The important thing, in my mind, is that they finish what they started, develop a sense of responsibility, and develop sufficient sophistication to be able to handle the pressures of wealth (for a small number), not to mention more maturity, as they will be older when they become, well, professional.
2. Conversely, of course, this would eliminate the situation, particular to basketball, where athletes leave after one or two years, to join the professional ranks, after they earned a free academic ride (that other athletically deprived kids don’t enjoy), and really build an incomplete, if not unsubstantive academic formation. Our athletic graduation rate is something that really speaks to this issue.
3. What are we teaching our young people? That academics are really a necessity for the athletically deprived? That the best of all worlds is one where you get to live a life of luxury and excess, with little regard for knowledge?
My five cents, but we should try and right the ship before it keels over.
100% Agave Azul
While I agree with you on our cultures overemphasis on athletics and neglect of academics, I’ll offer some counterpoints.
Most non-Texan reaction when I tell them I attend UT is along the lines of, “Oh, so you like football? Vince Young!!!”. Never has anyone commented on the prestige or education of the school. Again this is just anecdotal evidence. I’d argue that Texas’s football success has devalued the school has an academic institution.
No, I don’t think that most college athletes could get a “real degree” (I am defining this as a degree in the sciences/engineering or a challenging set of courses in a liberal arts major , not as a grade-inflated degree in “sports studies/general studies/easy sociology”.
They should be allowed to go straight to the pros, no questions asked.
The top universities with top football programs (Ohio State, Florida, Texas, Cal, USC, etc) usually have a HUGE disparity between the average SAT scores of football and basketball players when compared to the general population. The point is not to “graduate”, it is to graduate meaningfully and have gained knowledge in the process. The act of graduating doesn’t mean a thing. Its one thing for a mediocre student with a 900 out of 100 SAT to go to the University of Texas, study all day and night, and manage to graduate. It is another for an athlete with a score of 900, who has far more responsibilities, and cannot study day and night, to graduate.
Personally, I feel that most of these players are wasting their times at college. They do it, because you have to, to get to the pros. Football first for them. And they should be allowed to do that. Not sit around in an Eng. Lit class they neither care about or sometimes have the ability to comprehend. Not take easy classes in an easy major and “graduate”.
Yes they can finish, at least more, if not most of them...
Point taken, but still disagree that finishing at all, even if barely, is of no consequence. Most athletes with pro futures don’t care because they don’t have to, or at least, are not expected to. If you promote a straight shot for athletes, then they don’t have to participate in college sports — they could play semi-pro ball somewhere else. A four year experience, even if marginally sufficient to pass, is still a hell of a lot to take with you. Again, not all student-athletes can excel academically, and most don’t, but too many don’t finish. Additionally, standardized tests speak to some ability, but certainly cannot foretell college, or for that matter, future success.
Maybe we just have to settle for less talent sometimes, if it comes a the benefit of graduating more athletes. Now there’s a challenge for the Athletic Department, and ultimately, for the rabid, sports-only crowd.
Maybe Mack could start an endowment to help struggling student athletes finish their degree, with the extra 2 mil he’s getting.
100% Agave Azul
The point of standardized tests are to forecast college success. They aren’t perfect by any means, but I’d say they do a more than fair job.
The NFL combine is meant to measure future success as well. Its not perfect, but if man, if a players 40yd time or vertical leap, you’ll get marked down.
The 49% graduation rate of UT football players, is unacceptable at any rate, we agree on that issue. Sure, a few like Vince Young, leave early, as they rightly should. But its extremely rare, 1% rare. So with the exceptions of outstanding players going to the pros, we still have half of football players NOT graduating in six years.
Most of the scholarship-players at UT came here to pursue a CHANCE at a professional football, because that it is the only way, and UT is a suitable stage. Almost ALL NFL players played college. You can’t go pro right away like basketball used to be (though I admire Brandon Jennings for taking the Europe route, and I think many will follow). Most of them never end up with meaningful playing time, are discouraged, frustrated with school and athletics, and don’t graduate.
My take on it is, some of these kids simply cannot handle the school work, even in an easy major. I don’t think its fixable, unless you raise the academic standards to screen out these future drop outs. That would most likely lead to a season without a bowl game though, and for UT fans, thats unacceptable. Well, I would be plenty mad, haha. I don’t think it can be fixed by limiting practice time, giving each player a personal tutor, throwing money at the problem.
Disagree
First, in places like New York and Boston, most people associate the University of Texas with academics, not athletics. That is my anecdotal evidence. But then, those cities have a much higher rate of education per capita than most parts of the US.
Second, the University of Texas puts maybe 6 guys in the NFL each year, maybe 1 guy in the NBA and a few in MLB. That’s it. The other several hundred athletes have no shot at a professional career, and the VAST majority of them are using their scholarships to earn a degree. It could be argued that outside of about 10 athletes and the coaching staffs (who earn, or will earn, a paycheck from athletics), the entire rest of the athletic department is actually in it for the academics.
by BrooklynHorn on Dec 16, 2009 1:21 AM CST up reply actions
Agreed, for the most part. The majority of college athletes are actually in it for the academics, and being gifted athletically is both a way to contribute to the school, and to earn a scholarship.
For most athletes in non-men’s football or basketball, this is almost always, true. But for HIGH LEVEL college football and basketball, a lot of these athletes, especially in the big programs, highly touted recruits in high school, come with the intention of football first. They were good in high school and college is the showcase for a future NFL career. Though most of them will never make it, they come to UT, USC, Bama, ect with the hope that they will. Its a sad reality, and some will realize that, hit the books and learn. While others, who really despise books, drop out, or graduate with a easy-peasy degree and hopefully find work somewhere.
The stakes are just too high right now for Football and Basketball.
It is more than a bit disturbing to me...
that we can properly marginalize sports on certain occasions, but not on others. For instance, there probably isn’t a person on this board that, when it comes to military troops fighting overseas, wouldn’t conform to the stock mantra of “we forget sometimes, but this really is just a game.”
But when it concerns the education of our Nation’s youth, it’s “shut the hell up; the athletics department earns millions; these stuffy professors can kiss my ass.”
The only clear reason I can offer for such hypocrisy is that one (military participation) is propagandized heavily in our culture, and the other (education) is largely neglected and under appreciated. If you want a legitimate concern beyond the escalation already mentioned, perhaps we should be concerned with the overt, symbolic message this sends to the next generation: that we value football more than education.
There are reasons the U.S. falls farther down the global education rankings every decade, and if some of the attitudes on this thread aren’t a direct cause of it, they’re certainly a result, and they serve to perpetuate it. Education needs to climb our cultural hierarchy pretty quickly or our grandchildren’s standard of living may stand in envy of those exhibited in Northern Europe and Asia.
"(education) is largely neglected and under appreciated"
Honestly, I would take that over the outright hatred and fear of anything perceived as intellectual.
The swine flu takes a Will Muschamp shot every September.
by pleaseplaykindle on Dec 16, 2009 1:40 AM CST up reply actions
Unfortunately... I know.
I will never understand why mine had to be the culture of outright insecurity when it comes to knowledge and intellect. I visit so many other cultures in which academic achievement is genuinely valued in each citizen, and the scientists, philosophers, and poets from each nation’s historical traditions generate as much pride and celebration as do athletes and actors.
But not here. Here people are far too frightened of anything that is a catalyst for thought. Just keep following market forces…put down that book and consume.
by BrooklynHorn on Dec 16, 2009 12:34 PM CST up reply actions
one problem with your argument
Is that you are looking at Mack’s situation in a vacuum. How much does the university spend on football vs. “education” as a whole? It’s not even close; nor should it be. When it comes down to it, $2 Million in the U.T. system is a drop in the bucket.
What is our faculty budget vs. football coaching staff? You get the point.
Here, what touched a nerve is Mack’s raise. I sorta raised my eyebrows when I heard about it, too, because let’s face it … making $3 Mil is a good gig. But if we are paying some one what he or she has earned on the market, then Mack is clearly in that range.
You may not like it, but professors are not going to be paid that. Now, if they wrote best-selling books that sold millions of copies for a decade they probably would … or if they invented something that changed people’s lives for the better, etc. This happens, btw.
And … arguing that America’s prosperity hangs in the balance here, or that those who disagree with you are, well, just proof of the effects of our poor uneducated masses being educated by underpaid profs, is ad hominem and proof, I guess, that we needed some higher paid profs back in the day?
"I've always been an admirer of Texas' clock management. Now, I am completely sold." -- Les Miles
by Distributor of the Football on Dec 16, 2009 8:38 AM CST up reply actions
As I initially read this article...
My initial impression was that the world needs more stupidity, and 23 members of the faculty of the University of Texas were filling that need. After reading most of these comments, including some of my own, that initial impression was confirmed.
Just because I'm an occasional to frequent troll, doesn't mean I lack a heart or don't have a point. Rocky Top Talk blog ban: I did it for teh lulz.
You didn't address a single one of my points
you simply used my post as an excuse to restate what half the people on this thread have already been stating. Odd considering you began your response with “one problem with your argument.”
My argument in no way involves the amount of money the athletic department earns (which is indisputable). I also find the truth of market forces to be completely irrelevant. My argument involves the lack of priority given to education (and as ppk points out, intelligence) in modern America. In fact, there is an outright indignancy about intellect in contemporary US culture, whereby people absurdly believe they’d rather not be well-educated. You will have a very difficult time convincing me that this anti-intellectualism is not a substantial cause for concern, considering it is roughly a generation old, and in exactly that time the United States has fallen from 1st in many categories (education, political involvement, standard of living, health care, etc.) to anywhere from 25th-40th. Nothing ad hominem about it.
by BrooklynHorn on Dec 16, 2009 12:25 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Ok, I'll bite.
1. Higher Education is the U.S. is the envy of the world. It’s the primary and secondary education that stinks. You don’t see anyone sending their kids to college in Norway or Switzerland both of which have a higher quality of living.
2. More people have college degrees in this country now than in any point in history. So we’re better educated, not worse.
3. If the quality of education has slipped in the Academy, it is more because of a move away from the western canon, towards post-modernism and mush-headed politically correct groupthink. We could use more Hume and Mill, and less Dworkin and Naomi Wolfe.
4. A generation ago, our parents were tuning in, turning on, and dropping out. I don’t really look to Boomers and dirty hippies as being erudite and intellectual. Have you met the kids going to UT today? They’re too busy being in the top 10% and doing their AP Calculus homework to drop acid and have sit-ins at the ROTC building. I’m sure the quality of students at comparable instutions is just as good.
5. If you mean something different by a generation, i.e. 100 years, most of us were subsistence farmers. So that’s really gotten better, too.
6. I grant you that Healthcare in America is a dog’s lunch, but aside from paying for it, the care is pretty damn good, maybe even the best in the world. Nobody is flocking to Toronto for the superior health care. Given our lead in Pharma, Cancer research, AIDS research, the Human Genome, ect. I can safely say we’re no. 1. Show me the source of your figures, though, and we’ll talk.
"Stats are for losers, I like winning games"
". . .switzer is a cracked out bitch . . ."-osu poster
I don't know about 98, but I do ... :)
Good stuff. It’s some of what I was talking about. Brooklyn Horn, a lot of the problems you describe stem from issues at the primary/secondary level. Even deeper, it’s a cultural, moral problem. But a lot of my profs said it was “anti-intellectual” to believe in absolute truths. Absolutely, they did. I still love U.T. and the Horns, though.
Hook ’em.
"I've always been an admirer of Texas' clock management. Now, I am completely sold." -- Les Miles
by Distributor of the Football on Dec 18, 2009 8:17 AM CST up reply actions
So True! The college professor ranks are jammed full of leftist anti absolute-truth everything is relative persons who mostly congregate in the liberal arts.
Problem is, we are breeding a society where our most educated young men and women, do not know right from wrong, because they have been taught that everything is right and there are no absolute truths. Our future leaders have no moral compass that guides them.
Truth- Alabama’s running game is far superior to Texas’s. :D
My post below
which you may not have read before posting this, pretty much outlines my rebuttal.
Basically, my complaint is with the contemporary anti-intellectual mindset, and the diminishment of standards even within the educated class. Both of which I argue are relatively new.
Yes, obviously more people have access to education, but the manners in which it is viewed and executed have both suffered. College graduates today know very little compared to college graduates of generations past (there was once a time when being educated implied a thorough understanding of history, several natural sciences, and Latin). Not only is the typical 2009 college grad so specialized that he barely knows anything beyond his chosen discipline, he hardly cares to know.
And the US has HORRIBLE primary and secondary education systems. I can almost say quite literally that everyone I’ve spoken to from another culture, whether it be Denmark, Japan, or Kenya, has had a much more thorough high school education than mine. But this stems from attitude and priorities, and not funding. Clearly US schools, and certainly US Universities, have adequate funding and resources, but few students feel the need to take advantage of it, save for a minority of inquisitive citizens and a ton of foreign-born students.
And have you been to a country where people are actually involved politically? Or where they take education seriously? The contrast is unbelievable. American numbness is profoundly palpable by comparison. Again, attitude, not resources.
And the Western Canon of which you speak is exactly the tradition that set the stage for reason as an internal construct, from Descartes to Kant to Hegel to Wittgenstein. Or perhaps you prefer only British philosophers.
by BrooklynHorn on Dec 18, 2009 2:26 AM CST up reply actions
Did you actually read what I wrote?
You say
And the US has HORRIBLE primary and secondary education systems.
In response to what I said:
it’s the primary and secondary education that stinks.
So we agree on that point.
I personally find Kant, Hegel, and Wittgenstein to be a little navel-gazy for my taste. Hume and Mill stayed closer to political philosophy. On Liberty ought to be required reading. I also think that every college student should be given a course in inductive and deductive reasoning, as well as a grounding in the forms of logical fallacies (i.e. the straw man attack you use against me.) Again, I think we have something of an agreement here, even if our reasoning is different. I’d like to see the academy move away from post-modernism, as I believe it to be an intellectually bankrupt philosphical theory.
I disagree that students are too specialized. I was a Chem. major, and spent plenty of time bumming around the Liberal Arts and Foreign Languages to get my degree. And really, how helpful is a grounding in Greek and Latin? At any rate, I do something completely different now, and my broad education at UT has served me well. It also inspired in me a lifetime love of learning and study, often just for my personal edification.
Most of my cohort is involved politically. Also, what are you comparing political involvement to? The only other country I’ve lived in is Mexico, and nobody was involved because it was a one party system. You’d get elected to one term there, steal all you could, and head for the hills. The Danes I’ve known weren’t particularly involved politically, and they were law students…so I would expect them to be more involved than the next Dane on the street.
I know a bunch of college and high school students. Some are bright, motivated, and hard-working. Some are drug-addicted f**k-ups. Some are lazy. It’s the bell curve, brutha. Not everyone is going to be exceptional or bright. The people you meet at UT or Columbia or Rice are the Creme de la Creme, intellectually.
As a parting shot. Kenya? Really? The averge Kenyan goes to school for 10 years. Their literacy rate is 85.1%(defn. pop over 15 that can read and write). In contrast, the average American goes to school for 15 years, and our literacy rate is 99%.
"Stats are for losers, I like winning games"
". . .switzer is a cracked out bitch . . ."-osu poster
BTW, my source on school attendance and literacy:
CIA World Factbook.
"Stats are for losers, I like winning games"
". . .switzer is a cracked out bitch . . ."-osu poster
Yes, Yes, Yes. On Liberty should be required reading! Though, if you force EVERY college student to pass a challenging course in inductive and deductive reasoning, you might find that their would be a significant reduction in the number of “college students”. Most people don’t have the intellectual capacity for that kind of thought, the bell curve speaks.
Adam Smith said it, specialization is <3.
For the most part, our citizens are fairly involved politically, but for all the wrong reasons. Politics has become an emotional battleground seeking to win the hearts of ordinary Americans, who will ultimately determine the success of candidates and their policies. Reason has been flung aside.
Tears and guilt-provoking stories have become a staple, instead of statistics. The right and left are both guilty. Why? Most American’s don’t understand or know about the functions of our countries financial and political institutions. But they understand a sobbing person who couldn’t pay their medical bills or a small business owner whose face wobbles with worries as he faces increasing taxes.
College graduates today mostly know nothing and don’t want to know for the most part. They want jobs. They want money. Outside of a minority of students, college students go to college to get a degree, which they hope will get them a well paying job, and this is what they want.
The Adam Smith in me doesn’t agree with you that specialization is a bad thing, in fact it is a plus for our society, but keep it OUT OF COLLEGE. A college degree is no longer what it once was.
And to recreate your vision of a liberally educated graduate, education in the classical college sense (U-Chicago does a great job of this), will have to be limited to a certain number of people. Because the majority of college students today, will not care or even have the ability to tackle that sort of thinking and work.
Let them specialize. You want to play football, go for it. You must “go” to college to play football in the NFL now (not necessarily graduate), which is sad. You have to go to college to become a manager at Jamba Juice, which is confounding. Do you need college as it is currently constituted to succeed in these professions?Absolutely not. And I’ll go on a limb and say that most people who want to pursue these professions have little or zero interest in reading Kant and most of the time, do not have the capability to do so.
UT’s liberal arts core curriculum is a disgrace to society. Big classes, uninterested professors, multiple-choice exams, grade-inflated essays, and bored students (sometimes of marginal ability) have become the norm when tackling Descartes, Kant, Hegel, Wittgenstein, Hume, Mill, etc. It is near impossible to learn meaningfully in these conditions. Even if you earn an A, chances are, you just breathed in the knowledge for the tests, and exhaled it out as you left that final. Going through the motions. Hell, this is just what I did, and I’m going back and revisiting philosophy as of right now, On Liberty the second time through, is so much more enlightening.
Having lived in Asia, I will agree with you that they have much more rigorous education there, especially in the quantitative fields, which are the basis for any kind of scientific thought. Most American’s these days, frankly, suck at math. We might have the edge right now, our top graduates are exceeding creative, innovative, and resourceful, but the rest of the world is catching up fast, and will eventually pass us if we do not fix this glaring problem.
Too many of our college graduates are obtaining degrees in wishy-washy fields, and many of them expected to land a great paying job, only to be sorely disappointed, especially in this economy.
You only have to look at the economics, engineering, mathematics, and sciences graduate students at UT to see the disparate view of education between us and the world. The majority of them are NOT Americans. Ask any of these students about the difficulty of the quantitative section on the GRE, and they will laugh. American’s these days want easy money, just look at the number of students in second and third tier MBA programs. Sure we still have a marginal edge in innovation and creativity, but that gap is shrinking. We are too busy plastering ourselves silly at the Sunday tailgate to care. Education, whatever. The day will come when we no longer have that economic edge, and it will be because of our de-emphasis on education. At the same time we will be wondering why this is happening, especially when so many people are obtaining college “degrees”.
1. Yes. At the top research levels we are the envy of the world. At the East Greenwich State level, not so much.
2. No. We’re better credentialed for sure, not necessarily better educated.
3. Yes. Couldn’t agree with you more. What happened to classical liberalism?
4. Sort of. They’re too busy being in the top 10% and doing AP Calc because they want grades and decent paying jobs for the most part, not because they actually love the learning.
5. Sort of. We’ve had remarkable technological developments in the past century, most of which were created by extremely intelligent and innovative individuals.
6. Sort of. It’s good on the top, worse on average. Kinda of like my first point regarding higher education.
1. Yes. At the top research levels we are the envy of the world. At the East Greenwich State level, not so much.
2. No. We’re better credentialed for sure, not necessarily better educated.
3. Yes. Couldn’t agree with you more. What happened to classical liberalism?
4. Sort of. They’re too busy being in the top 10% and doing AP Calc because they want grades and decent paying jobs for the most part, not because they actually love the learning.
5. Sort of. We’ve had remarkable technological developments in the past century, most of which were created by extremely intelligent and innovative individuals.
6. Sort of. It’s good on the top, worse on average. Kinda of like my first point regarding higher education.
Actually, I did address your point
You just don’t like my answer. What I said was … you have a problem with the raise, but UT spends a heckuva lot more on education than football. And looking at Mack’s salary in a vacuum misses this point. If your point is that spending a bunch of money on a football coach while the faculty gets passed over, you are missing a whole bunch of points.
You say your argument “involves the lack of priority given to education”, but you don’t cite any examples of what this would look like, other than (I guess) not giving our football coach a big raise. But Mack’s raise has nothing to do with prioritizing education. No one cut the education budget to give this raise.
More fundamentally, though, do you know how much a Marine Lance Corporal who will get shot at in Afghanistan … or maybe dive on a grenade … makes? A lot less than a U.T. prof. So, I guess we don’t value their service as much? Or do we? Does talking about it (“propagandizing”, as you call it) make it valuable … or the paycheck?
Money doesn’t define value in anything other than an economic sense. But the market does tell us the economic value that people are willing to ascribe to it.
Incidentally, if you think Americans haven’t had a healthy sketicism for “intellectuals”, supposedly elite academics and such for longer than a generation … well, you must have taken history at an SEC school.
"I've always been an admirer of Texas' clock management. Now, I am completely sold." -- Les Miles
by Distributor of the Football on Dec 16, 2009 6:24 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
healthy skepticism for "intellectuals"
Very revealing comment. I don’t put all my chips on science or the arts, distributor, and really don’t have much time for a few stuck up “college professor types who can’t make it in the real world (right?),” but I have never been threatened by “knowing more.” There is no question that some Americans hold a disdain, for “intellectuals,” especially the “supposedly elite” ones. In fact, it’s become some sort of sexy new trend, that I honestly don’t understand. While not all knowledge is good, most of it taught in schools is. There’s ignorance out of circumstance, and there’s ignorance by choice. It’s the latter that I’m most concerned with, and that ultimately represents the greatest threat to our nation. Mack’s pay raise “in a vacuum” is hardly the problem. As I see it, it symbolizes a greater truth about our society. Money over education and values. Yes, values, the ones we used to learn at home.
100% Agave Azul
I'm with you when you're talking values ...
But I just have a hard time seeing how Mack’s raise is indicative of a decay in values. It’s not like Mack is making the money that misogynist rappers are … braying actors … or lying politicians … etc. He made it fair and square, and along the way helped to bring a lot of joy to many of us (and jobs, money, other opportunities, etc.). I think it only symbolizes a decay in values if you assume that there is something inherently wrong in what Mack and the program are doing. If it’s wrong to pay him $5 Million, isn’t it wrong to pay him $3 Mill? If not, why not?
The bottom line is … it bothers some that teachers aren’t paid more. Me? I would argue that, if we are talking about preserving liberty in the Republic, people like Gen. Petraeus should be making much more than others, certainly more than Mike Sherman (Ha.). But … intrinsic value doesn’t track economic value. Why should professors make more than firemen? Policemen? The military? The market decides. People make choices and go where they will and pay the prices they will pay for a variety of reasons. Salary is part of it. It’s not all of it.
There are lots of great jobs — like being a high school coach — which don’t pay much in dollars but many of us do it for other rewards. It’s funny to me that it’s often those who claim others are money mongers are quick to make value judgments based upon income, economic status and such.
"I've always been an admirer of Texas' clock management. Now, I am completely sold." -- Les Miles
by Distributor of the Football on Dec 16, 2009 10:57 PM CST up reply actions
Huh? The market does not decide the salary of firemen, policemen, military, state-U professors. Government decides that. And frankly, the salary of the first three professions would be a lot higher if they were subject to real market forces, and the latter a lot lower.
Mack makes his money by exploiting the players on his team and exploiting the corrupt politics of D-1A football.
You've missed my point
First, I actually have no problem with Mack getting a raise. Find one sentence I’ve written that even suggests that I do. I think there are a lot of good arguments to be made regarding an investment, the returns of which may actually help academics in the long run. That is my opinion on Mack’s raise.
My irritation has to do with the people posting on this thread who seem passionately angry that the faculty of a respected academic institution disagree with a decision that places a more notable, and more public, emphasis on athletics. As many have pointed out, this issue has two reasonable sides. What I find unnerving is that so many on this thread are responding to the faculty members of our University (many of whom make perfectly reasonable points) with such scorn and contempt. I’ll take to the grave that not one of these posters would react the same way were a [hypothetical] US Marine to criticize the school for its priorities in wartime. So what’s the difference? Healthy skepticism? Neither of us believes that.
The very notion of being skeptical of a group of individuals more educated than yourself smacks of insecurity and indignation (note: there is a distinction between “educated” and “intelligent”). It isn’t rational to prefer ignorance, whether it be for social acceptance, class rebellion, or for fear of finding yourself in the entirely unpleasant predicament of having been wrongly taught. I suspect many people would rather remain in ignorance because they fear that any deeper exploration of an issue may reveal the fallacious nature of their own opinionated beliefs, or worse, a mental deficiency on their part that precludes them from any deeper, more credible understanding of the many and varied nuances that most issues carry, which leads to the ultimate conclusion that they have either to leave those issues to superior minds, or simply not take part in discourse at all. In either event, fear and insecurity is what drives anti-intellectualism, not healthy skepticism.
And while the uneducated majority has always harbored an emotionally (not rationally) driven contempt for the education, the private notion that an individual should believe his social status increased were he to proclaim allegiance to a prideful brand of ignorance is something that began around 1980. There is a difference between a public denouncing of the “educated elite” coupled with a private desire to educate yourself so as to increase your own chances for success (the typical historical condition to which I suspect your “healthy skepticism” remark alludes) and possessing both a public and private desire not to educate yourself at all (which is what I believe to be the case with many of my contemporaries).
Further, even the educated class in America today seems to deflect its knowledgeable responsibilities. Go read a newspaper article written in the earlier part of the 20th Century, or a professor’s lectures, and compare them to their equivalents today; in both cases you will find a diminished adherence to higher standards. Look at presidential speeches pre-Ronald Reagan, and every one there after (both Democrat and Republican – Clinton’s speeches were every bit as folksy as were Reagan’s). Listen to the careful, nuanced language college graduates once used, and compare that to the Gen Y ivy league graduates I meet every day who butcher their grammar and insert a very unsure and transitional “like” into their sentences at nearly every pause, and who subsequently, and admittedly, experience difficulty in articulating complex ideas, particularly those that go beyond their chosen disciplines or their personal lives.
I see no possibility that more knowledge is ever harmful. Knowing how things work, knowing why they evolved to work in the way that they do, knowing various angles to an argument based on disparate incentives and needs, and knowing both short-term and long-tern consequences of all possible conclusions can only better a person’s decision-making. But anyone who encourages such knowledge is met with juvenile anger (an utterly transparent defense mechanism), as people declare, with a straight face mind you, that they are skeptical of those with more knowledge than they.
by BrooklynHorn on Dec 16, 2009 10:56 PM CST up reply actions
Is this a sports blog or what?
I ask that tongue-in-cheek, of course, BrooklynHorn. I disagree with you that all evil and decay in America (indeed the world) began with Pres. Reagan, but I don’t suppose that’s an appropriate discussion for this time. Who knew that Jimmy Carter was the spellbinding wordsmith? Funny. Or Ford. Wow. I am not sure he even knew Pres. Reagan was talking about when he said the Challenger crew had “slipped the surly bonds of earth to touch the face of God.”
The decay in academic standards that you cite — and I generally agree with — is more a product of poor primary and secondary education, I think. The lack of intellectual curiosity (which I found in some of my UT professors, by the way) stems mainly from upbringing, prejudices, and values, not their university experiences. I had an anthropology professor that thought a W.V. snake-handling cult was a fair representation of Christianity. Happily, she was not given a $2 Million raise.
There are a lot of factors that contribute to the poor writing, diminished capacity to speak, to communicate effectively, etc., that you lament.
But what UT pays its football coach is not one of them.
I think some of the blowback you see on this thread is because of the utterly predictable response that a certain segment of academics will always make to college athletics. It smacks of jealousy and a political agenda.
Methinks that these academics and their ilk shouldn’t take themselves so seriously and would better spend their time pulling for the Horns.
"I've always been an admirer of Texas' clock management. Now, I am completely sold." -- Les Miles
by Distributor of the Football on Dec 16, 2009 11:26 PM CST up reply actions
There are a lot of factors that contribute to the poor writing, diminished capacity to speak, to communicate effectively, etc., that you lament.
On this point we agree. However, while Mack’s raise is not a contributing factor (which I have already conceded), the general anti-intellectual attitude that seems so pervasive in this culture (and not in the dozen or so other cultures I’ve experienced) is the categorical arc that binds these many factors. And many of the posts on this thread both reflect and perpetuate that attitude.
I suspect you agree with Mack’s raise more than you agree with the principles for which these other posters are latently arguing, so I’m unsure as to why you’d continue so persistently to defend them, and why you continue to argue more toward the economic justifications and less toward my disdain for anti-intellectualism. Personally, when a group of individuals produces the same conclusion as myself, but have arrived at it with what I deem to be superficial motives, I tend not to consider them allies. I would prefer as an ally someone who disagrees with my conclusion but has arrived at that disagreement through careful and experienced thought.
But then people are also stubborn and competitive, and their motivations for arguing rarely include an honest pursuit of authenticity or utility, so hey, whatever you feel you need to do to win the argument…
by BrooklynHorn on Dec 17, 2009 12:41 PM CST up reply actions
B-Horn, c'mon ... you seem to know a lot about other people's "superficial" motives
Your comment about the military, Pres. Reagan, the professor’s reflexive response to Mack’s raise — which you don’t oppose and don’t think contributes to the demise of “intellectualism” … whatever that is — appears to illustrate a political agenda at work.
You have a worldview. That is fine. Just because others don’t agree with it doesn’t mean they aren’t interested in the pursuit of truth, however. Many of us on this thread are U.T. grads. We’ve seen professors purportedly interested in “the pursuit of truth” who are, in fact, really interested in a personal or political agenda. Certainly not all or even most of them are this way, but there’s a sizeable bunch. I bet some of those folks were complaining about Mack’s raise.
I think what people resent, but maybe are not articulating clearly, is when people masquerade as mere academics, journalists, whatever, in the pursuit of truth, knowledge, informing/educating the cultutre, the public good, etc. but they are really about something else. Let’s just say (hypothetically, of course) that a journalist writes a news story for the NY Times that is favorable to a certain political party, but it’s done in the guise of a news story. I think that such an approach naturally breeds more skepticism and resentment of such reporting. The reporter in question would likely charge critics with being “anti-free press”.
“People just don’t care about the news any more.” We’ve heard this line from the dying media, in fact. But maybe, just maybe, people don’t care for folks packaging editorials as news … or politics as learning … or pay raises for certain people as virtuous/evil, depending upon one’s own life choices or career … or claiming that if you disagree with me, you don’t like to think, etc.
Through the course of getting a couple of degrees at U.T., I dealt with various academics who thought that only people who saw the world their way were interested in learning. This is not education; it is prejudice. I cited you the example of my anthropology prof. There are many more examples. Such an approach breeds skepticism that is hardly “anti-intellectualism.”
When you make blanket statements like the one that you concluded your comment above with — that the motivations of people for arguing “rarely include an honest pursuit of authenticity or utility” — I think it’s a cue to take a look at why you are so sure of what others are thinking.
"I've always been an admirer of Texas' clock management. Now, I am completely sold." -- Les Miles
by Distributor of the Football on Dec 17, 2009 2:31 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Okay, B-Horn.
Cheers, and Hook ’em.
"I've always been an admirer of Texas' clock management. Now, I am completely sold." -- Les Miles
by Distributor of the Football on Dec 18, 2009 8:13 AM CST up reply actions
Kudos to You Distributor
You’ve exactly articulated my position on this. The profs are clearly playing politics with their admonishment. You’ve also reminded me that I am breaking my most important rule in life:
“Never argue with an idiot unless you are getting your hourly rate.”
"Stats are for losers, I like winning games"
". . .switzer is a cracked out bitch . . ."-osu poster
You two are so cute.
Absolutely adorable. : )
by BrooklynHorn on Dec 20, 2009 1:28 PM CST up reply actions
VS. Soccer in other parts of the developed world.
The United States is the only country in the world with this kind of “college sports” business/racket. Europeans, Asians, South Americans, and everyone else are often perplexed, and rightfully so, at the American college football and basketball scene.
I like their amateur system that is prevalent in Pro-Soccer, where kids can go develop and play on the age-group teams until they can hopefully make the top-tier team. The weaknesses with the system is that it robs the players of any chance of gaining an education or pursuing a non-sports career should they fail to come out on top.
Hell a few pro teams in South America still do carry the name of a University, but its only a symbolic gesture. This is where I’d like to see college football in the future.
If you are a good student and a top soccer prospect, you will have to make a choice. Education or sports.
But that is what life is about, choices. We try to have both in the US, and while it looks good on the surface, the system is filled with contradictions.
Yes, the majority of UT’s football players will never be in the NFL. But many of them, top prospects in high school, do go with the intention of playing pro-football. Most kids coming out of high school have big dreams, they think they can make it. And UT is a stage where they can hopefully prove that. Sure, for most it doesn’t pan out, and some do accept that and focus on their studies, but some can’t even do that, because, well, they never intended to study.
Sad, sad, sad.
Where are your stats
Why do you think there is such a failure rate among these athletes? You seem to be making a very broad generalization without any facts. Take a look at the average college football player that does not make the NFL and compare him to the average kid from his neighborhood. I think you will find that even the kids who you condescendingly say “sad, sad, sad” because they did not finish their degree are doing much better than the kid who never had a chance.
http://www.statesman.com/sports/content/sports/stories/longhorns/2009/11/19/1119utgrades.html
49%. Less than half, graduate. Sure you have a couple standouts like Vince (good choice to go pro). But what happened to everyone else?
That is not what I am talking about
The point is not that only 49% graduate, although others he have linked to different studies that put it closer to 70%.
The point is to compare that to their chance of graduating from college if they had not gotten a scholarship. And even the ones that did not graduate will on average do better than the average child from the neighborhood. So what is the problem with giving these kids a chance, even if their original intent was to go to the NFL?
Look at it this way. If you were a player who went to a big school hoping to play major minutes and earn a degree. You don’t get major minutes and are failing multiple classes.
You think being in that situation is GOOD for self confidence? Personally, I’d feel like a big failure in life.
I’d most certainly give them a chance, if they had a reasonable SAT score and H.S GPA. But I wouldn’t give it to them if they scored 900 out on the SAT.
Look at it like the NFL combine. If you are a running back who runs a comparatively slow time in the 40yd, you are most likely not going to make it in the NFL. Sure, maybe a team or two will take a chance on you, and it might work out, but for the most part, you won’t get drafted.
The problem with NCAA football and basketball, is that we are offering scholarships and dreams to too many kids who don’t have a good enough SAT score (40yd time). You can make an exception once in a while, but it should not be the norm.
Modern day reality...
You write —
I think you will find that even the kids who you condescendingly say "sad, sad, sad" because they did not finish their degree are doing much better than the kid who never had a chance….
Sorry Wells, but I don’t see things in as good a light as you. In this day and age, the kid who did not finish his degree is in bad shape. What’s more troubling is that there is a generation of kids who do not even finish high school, let alone college, and of those, many have no skills whatsoever. I’m talking about auto mechanics, carpentry, plumbing, etc. – today considered a lost art. Have you noticed why there has been such a rise in “technical” schools around the nation, it’s because we don’t believe in a full college education. We are breeding, on have a whole bunch of overweight, illiterate and undisciplined individuals. Guess who’ll be paying for their lunch later on partner, you and me.
100% Agave Azul
You don't get my point
More times than not the average UT player that finishes some college but not all of it is way better off than the average child from the neighborhood that that player came from.
I’m a realist libertarian, along the lines of Charles Murray (sometime’s don’t agree his lines on race), so I think its a negative that you have to finish a degree to be first class citizen when a lot of degrees don’t mean much now.
I also think its wonderful that we have more technical schools and that we should remove the stigmatization from them.
I don’t really care if a football player gets a degree or not. Because most of the time, that degree in sports studies doesn’t mean crap. I think they should just be allowed to make a choice, a chance a minor-league football, or the NFL, without ever having to go through that “college” thing.

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