Help for Greg Davis
by BillyWayne on Dec 8, 2009 2:11 PM CST
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I've taken the liberty of offering the services of my bete' noire' in an effort to help Mr. Davis come up with an offensive game plan, not that the last one was not offensive in a certain manner. She will soon shift her considerable talent away from drawings (canine expressionism) and towards Texas football. I have no doubt that she will be able to continue to sleep 18 hours a day and come up with a better plan than the one we employed Saturday last.
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New Orleans Saints
I’d like the Texas coaching staff to make a call to the Saints to make some adjustments to our passing game. We don’t have the O-Line they have, but if we can add a component to hit receivers in open spaces,on the run, that will be greatly beneficial.
to jump on the "we hate Greg Davis" bandwagon
Doesn’t Mack ultimately decide who the OC is going to be? If you don’t like the play calling, why don’t you blame the guy who hired the guy who is calling the plays? I didn’t hear a lot of calls to fire Duane Akina last year. And where were all of the Muschamp-bashing threads after the defense gave up 59 points over two games?
I don’t necessarily like the play calling all the time- in fact, I hate some of the plays that they call. But it seems like everyone likes to praise the offense when it’s doing well and bash Greg Davis when it isn’t. Chances are that Mack Brown and Greg Davis know more about offensive schemes than anyone on this board will ever know… if you really think that you can lead an offense better than Greg Davis, why don’t you start coaching, because I’d be willing to bet that he makes a lot more money than you do.
"We hate Greg Davis" bandwagon is more like a Cruiseship
I’m not sure what a bandwagon actually is, but if you’re talking about the curious and disappointing playcalling from 1999-Mid 2004, 2006-07, 09, then I think it’s more like a “We hate Greg Davis” cruiseliner at port.
if you really think that you can lead an offense better than Greg Davis, why don’t you start coaching,
I only know that at least 5 teams outperformed Texas against this year’s Nebraska defense, including Colorado. And, over the course of 12 years with Texas, Texas has underperformed at a higher rate than other teams when facing good defenses. I can’t sing as well as Ashley Simpson, but I still know that she sucks at singing.
Fact is, Davis has led one of the top offenses for years
Texas is almost always near the top in the country in total and scoring offense. Find me an offensive coordinator who does more with less against similar competition, and we might be in business.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 8, 2009 2:57 PM CST up reply actions
Average statistics
In no way did anyone say Greg Davis doesn’t do well in general. They’re talking about these disaster game plans that crop up when it looks like we did nothing all week to prepare. Every bad/average defense we’ve faced has largely been crushed under our feet. Every half decent one we’ve faced has made us look like crap.
It's amazing quality of mental gymnastics people will perform to keep from admitting this
Particularly the recent “Texas doesn’t have the talent to compete with defenses like Nebraska and Oklahoma.” It’s high quality stuff.
proud to swim home
How is this different from any other team
Florida put up 13 points in two games this year, to the two currently ranked teams they played.
To expect to never have a bad game or to perform as well against great teams as you do against average teams seems like some pretty amazing metal gymnastics to me.
I think after 12 years we can spot a trend
I hate that GD has become such a polarizing subject. I do think he is for the most part a good coordinator. I just facepalm at the fact when things turn south, we look so common and lost.
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
by run Bevo run on Dec 8, 2009 10:29 PM CST up reply actions
But that is the problem
We are assuming a trend without any measurable data. I looked into this at the end of 2004, but it was more about if Mack was more conservative than Stoops and Carrol, by comparing winning % against top 25 and against unranked. At that time the data showed that Mack did win more against unranked and less against ranked, thought it was not by much. I am thinking after the past couple of years the data has moved in Mack’s direction.
It would be interesting to look at GD’s deviation from his average in offense metrics against ranked opponents and compare that to other top coaches, to see if there really is a coloration. My guess is that like the data above, it will show some of GD’s tendencies to have more disaster games against strong opponents, but it will not be as large as you think they are.
Sometimes it is perception that makes us forget the great offensive games we have had, usually because they are not close, and you only remember the close ones and the bad losses. Your last sentence is a great example of this. When you see other good teams have bad performances you don’t personify it like you did here, and therefore it does not seem as bad.
Data
I’ve looked it up and other “top” offenses did better against quality defenses than Texas from 1999-2003, 2006-07 & probably 09. That doesn’t prove that Davis sucks, but that he underpeforms against great defenses.
I would like to see that data
plus, you can’t just self select years like that and expect it to be objective.
2004-2005
Those years are more acceptable to be omitted due to the nature of who was helming the Quarterback position. VY overcame the shortcomings of the offensive schemes due to his ability to singlehandedly take over games. His versatility made GD’s job extremely easy and negated the need to truly scheme as much as he needed to before Vince as well as now in the spread.
That makes no sense
So do you take away Texas’ National Championship away as well and just give it to VY as well? I can make any coach look bad if I take out the good years.
You can't cherry-pick data like that
This highlights a problem i have with an occasional argument against GD — any successes our offenses have must be discounted because of the talented players we’ve recruited, especially at QB, who overcome the bad coaching.
I guess we must specialize in recruiting really dumb yet talented players on offense who keep coming to the university despite the fundamental coaching deficiencies they will inherently face once on-campus. How do we keep tricking them like that? Haven’t they figured out that playing for GD will merely stunt their growth as players?
And this highlights the "Greg Davis Sucks Generally fallacy"
He is a gifted quarterbacks coach, I don’t really think this can be rationally denied. Many, many athletic quarterbacks have never had a fraction of the development of VY; Colt’s development is borderline unreal considering his background, and both Simms and Applewhite (whatever the criticism about Simms) were competent starters for a top 25 team (notice the qualifier Simms detractors)…at the same time.
Where more valid issues spring up is in selecting, recruiting and scheming the offensive line (yes, McWhorter coaches them but Davis and Brown are the executives, they take blame when anything goes wrong). Can anyone remember a story equivalent to Colt’s (or even VY i.e. highly recruited and fully lived up to the hype) in the last 12 years on the O-line?
On an note related to HB’s comment above, in light of Bama’s recent display – what was the last truly dominant defense that UT’s offense thoroughly demolished? I can’t remember one, but it may be selectivity bias.
proud to swim home
Judging OL development . . .
. . . gets me way beyond my paygrade very quickly, but one easily-reviewable metric is the ratio of OL to all Longhorns active in the NFL. According to this list, of the 41 former Horns active in the NFL, seven (Blalock, Sendlein, Scott, Davis, Studdard, Hills and Williams) played OL for Texas under Brown/Davis (though perhaps an asterisk should apply for Davis as his UT career began under Mackovic). That seems like an appropriate ratio (not too high or too low) of players who either developed like Colt or lived up to the hype like VY to the point at which they were judged to be NFL-caliber players.
Interestingly of the 7 – 5 were on the campus at the same time. If UT had five linemen of NFL caliber now, I don’t think Greg Davis is taking as much heat. Actually, he could probably call whatever the hell he wanted to and it would work more often than not – see 2004-6.
In any case, I think that’s far too removed of a proxy. Iowa reliably has a near dominant line with little NFL talent.
proud to swim home
They were 54th in scoring defense last year
so, no.
I wish I felt like I could though.
proud to swim home
Last truly dominant defense
Depends on what you call a dominate defense.
This year I think Oklahoma and Nebraska could fall into that category.
Ohio St in 2008.
2007 Oklahoma and TCU
2006 Oklahoma and Ohio St, maybe Nebraska.
2005 Tech, USC, Ohio St.
Of these the only games with points over 40: 2005 Tech and USC
You could also include 34 on TCU in 2007.
Quicky and Dirty Results: using a top ten scoring defense as a metric
OU and Nebraska this year, Ohio State in 2008, TCU in ’07, and Ohio State in ’05 would all qualify. UT scored above their season averages, though yea verily with one exception.
TCU is the only one that Texas ran over – literally. Charles has 134 in that game.
To some extent, I think this is part of Davis’ problem. Texas wins more often than not, but there is an absence of signature – Bama Florida 09, USC-Penn State ‘08 – games where a quality team was blatantly out performed. I’m not sure this argument is entirely fair, but if Davis had scored 34 on either OU or NU this season the longhorn internets would be much more placid.
proud to swim home
Not since 2005
Although I think after the OU and Missouri games, although neither had great defenses, was the closest we have come.
In 2005, despite not playing a top ten defense, I would say that there were plenty of signature wins.
I think it was billyzane who posted a list of the programs with higher offensive output. All of them had higher average recruit rankings on offense than Texas does.
I’d really like to hear suggestions about better offensive coordinators to hire. Every single one has question marks and criticisms as great as GD’s.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 8, 2009 3:24 PM CST up reply actions
A scenario
Let’s say you have a cursory knowledge of what it takes to run an offense and you have a Madden 10 playbook. You get the same players that have been recruited as Davis, how much different do you think total offense and scoring offense would be? I would venture to say not too much.
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
It would differ greatly
You or I would crash and burn in such a scenario, as would most other pretenders.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 8, 2009 3:36 PM CST up reply actions
No reasons why?
You have 4 or 5 basic running plays, you have guys in routes, I don’t see the difference if you have the same players
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
You don't see the difference?
Then you really must think Mack Brown and Greg Davis are idiots. Furthermore, the coaches who lose almost every single game, including Tressel, Carroll, etc., must be completel idiots for not being able to stop such an allegedly poor scheme.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 8, 2009 3:49 PM CST up reply actions
I want your reasoning holmes
I find it a bit funny, you are just spewing the meme
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
Spewing the meme?
Excuse me, I thought you were the one echoing the groupthink here.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 8, 2009 3:52 PM CST up reply actions
As are you
You are doing no different than I, you are just on the opposite side of the argument.
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
False
Because my position is not a meme. Yours is, as it’s an echo of a popular and unsupported line. My position is an unpopular one that challenges yours, not the other way around.
It’s preposterous and vain of you to think that you could do as well with UT’s offensive players as Greg Davis does.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 8, 2009 3:57 PM CST up reply actions
Vanity?
Come on guy, that’s weak. Get your stuff together and prove me wrong.
Quit sourcing BZ and show me yourself.
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
Hell ..
… I think my 65-year-old mother, who has only a passing interest in football, could have made a better call on that 3rd-and-30 the other night …
Watch out, I bite.
by EddieTheAlbinoSquirrel on Dec 8, 2009 5:13 PM CST up reply actions
I'm confused. Is this Germany, 1938?
We must hold all criticisms of Der Fuhrer.
Watch out, I bite.
by EddieTheAlbinoSquirrel on Dec 8, 2009 9:35 PM CST up reply actions
Because there's no better way to kill any kind of discussion - rational or otherwise -
than invoking Godwin’s Law
proud to swim home
by learned hand on Dec 8, 2009 10:07 PM CST up reply actions
Pick any fascist regime
Point being, those of us who actually attended and graduated from UT did so for a reason. We wanted to learn to think for ourselves, not perform like trained puppies or follow the herd like sheep (see College Station).
I don’t understand this bizarre assertion that, because a coach has done some things reasonably well, he is sacrosanct and should not be questioned at all. That’s ridiculous.
Watch out, I bite.
by EddieTheAlbinoSquirrel on Dec 9, 2009 10:49 AM CST up reply actions
I'm not a Davis supporter
But comparing those who defend him to fascists is so absurd it annihilates the credibility of your argument.
Someone who graduated from UT should realize that and not merely because Godwin was a UT grad.
proud to swim home
by learned hand on Dec 9, 2009 11:47 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not speaking of defending him
I’m speaking of the attitude that, “Thou shalt not question Greg Davis, just because he was on a staff that won the MNC.” You can’t tell the difference?
Watch out, I bite.
by EddieTheAlbinoSquirrel on Dec 9, 2009 12:48 PM CST up reply actions
...
You can’t tell the difference between vocally supporting a man for specious reasons on a blog and enslaving, torturing, and slaughtering millions of innocent people?
proud to swim home
+
This thread has turned into enslaving, torturing, and slaughtering millions of innocent brain cells.
I wanted to present an unrealistic scenario we all could play and BOH didn’t oblige. I just keep getting the line, “Look at the top 10 offense rankings” and am asked to accept those reasons for Davis to be so great. That just doesn’t work for me. An analogy is a guy can run an awesome 1/4 mile in any Corvette, is it out of the realm of possibilities to run a faster 1/4 mile if you use it more effectively?
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
does more with less?
mack brown is such a great recruiter, greg davis always has top talent to use! its not like he has just above average talent to work with, its the fact that he has the best players and cant do more with them. the only reason he has led one of the top offenses for years is the players that he has makes him look good.
Dream on
UT doesn’t have the best players. Name a team with better overall offensive performance against equal or better defensive schedules, and you’re looking at one of the teams on the list of those with more highly rated offensive recruits.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 8, 2009 3:37 PM CST up reply actions
You've jumped the shark
UT doesn’t have the best players.
It’s disappointing that you actually believe this.
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
UT doesn't have the best recruits, to be more specific.
Look at the rankings and talent on offense. Do you really think UT has better offensive recruits than USC does most seasons?
by burntorangehorn on Dec 8, 2009 3:47 PM CST up reply actions
What is the difference?
Texas has the pick of every kid in this state, USC get’s the pick of every kid in California. What the hell is the difference?
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
There's a huge difference
Just compare the recruits. Also, consider that USC recruits not only the best in California, but also the best in many other states. Texas is the best single state for recruits, but the University of Texas does not bring in the best offensive recruits of any program in the country.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 8, 2009 3:50 PM CST up reply actions
I have compared the recruits
Why don’t you support your position? What makes USC’s better? Are they better because their coordinators use them more effectively than ours?
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
They're more highly rated, for one thing
And that type of rating is done by people who know a whole lot more about football than you or I do.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 8, 2009 3:55 PM CST up reply actions
Do you think coaches care about the ratings of ESPN magazine?
You think the coaches are satisfied when Rivals give them the best recruiting class? Quit being so naive. How did that recruiting class at USC help them out this year?
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
Well Technically your not supposed to see the full effects of a recruiting class until their junior year
and I havn’t looked at USC’s recruiting class from three years back, but I’m just putting that out there
Neither
Opposite opinions are necessary. He takes his personally, I look for truth.
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
by run Bevo run on Dec 8, 2009 11:46 PM CST up reply actions
Well, when you ask for facts, then dismiss them out of hand
and don’t respond with any of your own, I don’t see much truth seeking, but it was amusing.
I can debate on two fronts if you like
Are you looking to defend BOH or Texas doesn’t have the best players?
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
Notre Dame had a highly-rated recruiting class too IIRC
That has only helped in Lou Holtz world, where ND is currently playing itself in all 5 BCS bowls and being coached by a hybrid of Ara Parseghian, himself, and the reanimated corpses of Frank Leahy and Knute Rockne. And Jimmy Clausen has already brought home double the number of national titles he promised.
Ratings?
Wasn’t Colt McCoy a 3star recruit per those who know a whole lot about football?
Not trying to be an a$$, just pointing out that ratings at one level don’t necessarily equate to the next level.
Colt Mccoy = 3stars
Chris Sims = 5stars, National Player of the Year
Which one worked out better?
Works the same way between college and pros. Gino Torretta, Andre Ware, Eric Crouch, Jason White or Kurt Warner? Surely the Heisman winners would make better pros?
Hook Em!
by Margaritaking on Dec 8, 2009 4:38 PM CST up reply actions
More with less?
Davis does less with more, and by now there should be no easing into that realization as if it is a vague possibility. Even if human nature defines itself by differing opinions, we can nevertheless agree on one truth: When Texas wins, it is in spite of Davis, not because of him.
If this is "underperforming" . . .
. . . i dare say every school in the country has underperformed for the last 12 years.
Underperform
When you look at the Top 10 offenses each year, Texas typically has less productivity when they play top defenses than do their counterparts. It’s good that we’re near the top in offensive output in both points and yards from scrimmage. It’s bad that there’s a higher gap between when we play good defenses and bad defenses.
The fact of the matter, we have a consistant output on an annual basis, which means Greg Davis does a decent job. And, that means we keep him, but he doesn’t go on to become head coach somewhere because he’s not THAT good. It’s bad because we are consistantly underwhelming against quality defenses – more so than other top offenses.
I think any given year, there are 10-20 better offensive coordinators than Greg Davis, who works with top talent.
It’s like a story I heard from a mid-major coach. He was listening to Phil Fulmer discuss gap control on defense at a coach’s workshop. Someone asked him, “So what if you don’t have Albert Haynesworth plugging the middle.” Fulmer stammered and repeated, well this is what we did.
The point is – it’s hard to tell how many coaches could do a better job at Texas because they don’t have Ricky Williams, Vince Young, Jordan Shipley or Colt McCoy. Other OC’s have to create and innovate. I’m not sure what Greg Davis does because unless we have overwhelming talent advantage, we usually struggle and more so than other top offenses.
It's the same stupid mentality.
Blame Mack and blame GD. In the last two years, when we’re the favorite “we play not to lose rather than play to win.” (See OU 2009, Neb 2009, Tech 2008, OSU 2008, tOSU 2009). All of these were close wins against really good competition. Yes we won all but one of those games, but they were all very close.
When we are the underdog, we can definitely show up (See OU 2008).
GD’s the mentality is to “take what the defense gives him”. Well sometimes, this philosophy doesn’t work. Yes, sometimes, we have the talent to overcome this, but sometimes and someday, it’ll come back to haunt us. I wish he would sometimes just go out there and say “we’re going to make the defense stop US.” He’s stubborn enough to not adjust on the fly for whatever reason.
Yes Nebraska played a hell of a game on Saturday. They have a great defense…but so do we. But our offense is 100x better than theirs. We should’ve done better and failing to properly come up with a gameplan to put our players in the position to suceed is considered a failure in my mind. Anyways, I pray he comes up with some great plays for the MNC. We’re facing another great defense.
"Football's so important in Texas. On the West Coast, it's a social. On the East Coast, it's a culture. Here, it's a religion."
-- Major Applewhite
I think it's about time to abandon any kind of offensive line at all and just line up all our receivers and running backs in crazy formations
3/19/2009 - Dogus Balbay Made a Three-Pointer. Never Forget.
A11
There’s an offense for that. It’s called the A11. Seriously.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
billywayne sure sounds and looks a lot like billyzane.
then again, with the amount of time i’ve been around lately, i don’t expect others will be confused.
Billy Wayne
Isn’t that your white supremacist/serial killer alter ego?
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
Greg Davis Jr
i think he has a better run game then his own dad lol
It seems to me that this year
most of our offensive problems have stemmed from bad O-line work. Any time Colt has trouble, it’s because he’s being hurried and sacked too much (Neb, OU). Quickly too, not five seconds and then pocket collapse, but DL coming in almost unblocked. Colt has good poise, but gets rattled pretty easy after he gets knocked around a bit. Even with good receiver chemistry, good reads, and good routes, you need a few seconds to let a play develop. Now whether or not this is from bad blocking schemes, I don’t really know enough about that to say. Generally, people criticize the quick passes and bubble screens, but against strong defensive lines those are some of the only passing options we’ve had.
Also, I hear people criticize GD for opposite flaws. This week I’ve heard people say that ‘we should have tried to run more’, and others saying ‘we weren’t passing enough’. People are always going to gripe about offensive production because too many people expect a three touchdown lead at the half. I thought he did a good job of trying to establish the run, while also taking a shot down field from time to time.
Personally, I would have liked to see some more misdirection, some quick slants instead of curls, but all in all I thought he tried to execute a pretty decent plan, but when your qb is getting thrown all over the place, it’s hard to develop a real successful drive.
Penalties were also a bitch against Neb. , it seemed like we had 1st and 15 or 1st and 20 a whole lot Saturday night.
I was in Half Price Books
yesterday and saw a book on Winning Offense in football, it has a lot of illustrations and pictures, hmmmm ….
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