Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Jeremy Lin And How The Pac-12 Missed Him

The Reclamation of Connor Atchley's Reputation

As many of you probably know by now, Michael Lewis wrote yet another epic article for the New York TImes Magazine this weekend.  The author of Moneyball, Liar's Poker, The Blind Side, and the NYT Magazine article on Mike Leach that started the whole pirate thing in the first place, Lewis has a gift for seeking out instances in which someone in sports is exploiting inefficiencies in old ways of doing things and then translating what those people are doing for the layperson.  The article published this weekend was about Shane Battier, Darryl Morey (the GM of the Houston Rockets), and the coming SABRmetric explosion in basketball statistics.  You should absolutely read it if you haven't already.

The thesis is that, just as in baseball before Bill James' theories gained traction in front offices, traditional cumulative statistics do a poor job at evaluating the contributions individual players make to the team, the Houston Rockets front office is at the forefront of new efficiency statistics that make an attempt to more accurately measure what a player does for a team, Shane Battier is one of the most efficient players the Rockets have ever seen and makes his team a lot better simply by being on the court, but Shane Battier puts up terrible traditional statistics so he is undervalued by other teams and thus is a steal for the Rockets.  Also made explicit in the article is that Shane Battier is, at best, a marginal NBA athlete with poor ball handling skills and a jumpshot that requires him to be open to make.  Sound like Connor Atchley to you?

It sounds sort of crazy, I know, but Connor Atchley is one of the most efficient players on the Texas team this year and last year was one of the most efficient players in the entire NCAA.  Note, of course, that "efficient" doens't mean "best."  But a player who is efficient without putting up great traditional numbers is often overlooked and maligned for not doing anything on the court when in fact he is hard at work making the team better in difficult-to-measure ways. I believe Connor is in this category.  Hear me out after the jump.

Star-divide

The comments that have been floating around BON about Connor this year are astoundingly short-sighted.  He's not shooting the ball well this year, that much is certain, and his points, rebounds and minutes are all down.  But sometimes, it's not traditional "box score" statistics like points, rebounds and assists that define how good a player is.  This is especially profound in basketball because, as Darryl Morey points out to Michael Lewis in the article, individual basketball statistics can be accumulated to the detriment of the team (whereas baseball is a sport in which individual success more or less translates into team success).  Luckily, over the last few years, Ken Pomeroy has been leading the charge of creating/implementing efficiency statistics and applying them to college basketball.

If you've been paying attention to BON's basketball coverage the last few years, you should know that we favor KenPom's rate statistics in terms of team analytics simply because while traditional statistics often belie the true nature of the game, reducing it to its most base formulation of "who can make more shots, get more rebounds, and dish more assists than the other guy," these KenPom statistics make an attempt to get deeper into the true nature of the game--the movements, the flash-outs, and in short, the little things that make it possible for certain players to score a lot of points, get a lot of rebounds or dish out a lot assists.  In basketball, it's a lot easier to develop team efficiency statistics than individual ones, simply because what a team does is a whole entity that is affected by only one other variable, the other team.  However, what an individual does is only part of that whole entity, meaning that there's an added layer of variables to account for (i.e. how that player operates within that team).  As I said earlier, baseball doesn't have this problem because it is an individual sport in almost every capacity other than defense.  It's difficult in basketball, however, to isolate and examine what, exactly, an individual is doing to help a basketball team, especially when he's not putting up traditional "box score" statistics.

But KenPom and some others have developed some metrics for doing just that.  And by those metrics, Connor Atchley is an excellent basketball player even when his shots aren't falling.  And when they are, like last year, he is elite in terms of efficiency.  Let's look at some of those statistics.  I explain some of the stats below; for explanations of others please see this and/or this.

  %Min ORtg %Poss %Shots eFG% TS% OR% DR% ARate TORate Blk% Stl% FC/40 FD/40 FTRate FT% 2P% 3P%
2009
Nt'l Rank
49.5
112.8
308
13.4 14.8 48.1 53.5 6.7 12.3 5.1
14.5
275
7.9
64
1.7 5.1 2.5 27.6 .897 .521 .298
2008
Nt'l Rank
68.9
127.1
12
15.4 16.5
62.1
36
63.0
65
8.3 12.4 5.1
12.8
93
8.5
49
1.7 3.9 2.6 22.3 .672 .622 .413

In sum, what this tells us is that even though the offense doesn't really go through Connor Atchley (only taking 14.8% of the team's shots that occur while he's on the court this year and 16.5% last year), he has a strongly positive effect on the offense while he is on the court, as is Offensive Rating (ORtg) ranks him quite highly this year and was astronomical last year.  ORtg is the efficiency statistic meant to measure what effect a certain player has on the offense.  It's effectively a modified +/- statistic that measures how well an offense does with the player on the floor versus with him off of it, and then figures out how much of that plus or minus is attributable to that individual player.  This year, Atchley is behind only two players on the team, Dexter Pittman and AJ Abrams (for the record, Clint Chapman is last on the team with an abysmal 67.1 ORtg).  Last year, Atchley was behind only 11 other players in the entire NCAA, among those who played at least 40% of their team's minutes.

How did a guy who averaged 9.5 ppg, 5.3 rbg and .8 apg in 2008 end up as the 12th most efficient offensive player in the entire NCAA?  Numerous ways.  His effective field goal percentage and true shooting percentage were off the charts, he never turned the ball over, he got a fair amount of offensive rebounds, and he made everyone around him better.  That is, the team scored more points when he was in the game than when he wasn't, it got more rebounds when he was in the game as opposed to when he wasn't, etc.  In effect, while other players were running the show, Connor was behind the scenes making things happen.  It's the little things that don't show up in the box score.  

And that's just on offense.  KenPom doesn't have an individual defensive efficiency statistic yet, but I have to imagine that Connor would be highly rated by that one as well, especially considering that in 2008 he blocked a full 8.5% of all shots that were taken while he was on the floor, good for 49th in the entire NCAA (and it's only down to 7.9% this year, a #64 ranking).

Note also the offensive and defensive rebounding percentages (OR% and DR%, respectively) for Atchley.  These percentages show the numbers of rebounds he pulled down out of the number of possible rebounds that he could have pulled down in his minutes on the floor.  KenPom says that 10% is a good OR% while 20% is a good DR% and that offensive rebounds are generally regarded as being more the result of individual effort than defensive rebounds.  Note that Connor is a lot closer to the 10% threshold for "good" OR% than he is to the 20% threshold for "good" DR% (at least in 2008), and that while his OR% has gone down in 2009, his DR% has stayed the same.  This tells me that Connor gets his own offensive rebounds fairly well, but his lack of overall defensive rebounds isn't indicative of his lack of worth on glass because even when he's clearly not playing as well as he did last year, his defensive boards are still more or less the same.  And while I don't have the specific stats to show it, I would be willing to bet that a large part of his high ORtg is attributable to the fact that the team gets more defensive rebounds with him in the game than without.  Boxing out your man and allowing Damion James to jump high for the rebound is probably more effective than trying to outjump James for the box score statistic.

And that's the crux of all of this.  Connor does the little things that make teams better that they would be without him, even though those contributions don't show up in the box score.  Last year, we had a love affair with "Good Connor" because in certain games, his contributions did begin to show up in the box score, mostly because of his ridiculous shooting percentages.  This year, he's not making any shots and thus many of you have deemed him "useless."  That's absolutely not true.  There's more to basketball than scoring points, getting rebounds, and handing out assists.  There's the rotation on defense that Connor is so good at, flashing an arm out in front of a cutting offensive player to deny him the ball, weakside help defense, cutting off the high pick and roll without getting too far out of position, and always keeping his blocked shots in bounds.  On offense, it's the subtle moving screen he sets at the top of the key and the flash out for the 3 that defenses still respect, boxing out the weak-side to allow someone else to go get a rebound, keeping the spacing in tact in a way that our other big men just can't or don't.  He makes the team better when he's on the floor, even if he's not hitting shots.  And if he is, look out world, you've got an elite player on your team.

I've been noticing this about Connor for a long time, but one thing hit it home yesterday.  An Aggie drove to the basket and Connor came over to block the shot from behind.  He didn't block it, but ended up under the basket when the missed layup came down right towards an A&M player.  Connor could have tried to grab the rebound, but he was out of position and would have easily lost the ball to the Aggie for an easy putback.  Instead, he saw Abrams at the top of the key and patted the ball back out to him.  If AJ hadn't lost the ball in a scrum with another Aggie, it would have been a fast break, a 4-point turnaround.  Some got mad at Connor for seemingly not hustling to get the ball, but he actually made a good play that helped the team and didn't show up as a rebound in his stats.

Now, I'm not saying that Connor Atchley is necessarily a great basketball player, or that he's anywhere near as good as Shane Battier, even in the realm of these efficiency metrics.  He's often out of position rebounding and does not have the strength to muscle bigger players.  He can't create his own shot, and this year has had plenty of trouble making the ones that were created for him.  But he is a very good basketball player and, if he's making his shots, he's a potentially great college basketball player.  But because he doesn't put up a lot of traditional box score stats, he is undervalued, both by fans and potentially by his own team.  And this will afford the possibility for a smart NBA team to pick him up as an undrafted free agent and start to mold his game here and there, while allowing him to do what he does best--make his basketball team better.  In the meantime, he's doing just that for this Texas basketball team, whether you realize it or not.

Comment 59 comments  |  4 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Right idea, but...

Battier compares much more to Justin Mason, the “glue guy” on the team. Connor directly impacts the team negatively with his terrible shooting %, along with his inability to rebound well. His defense does make up for this somewhat, but there’s no doubt the label of “bust” would be appropriate to describe him. He and Abrams were supposed to be our best shooters this year from three.

Balbay, Ward, and Mason are all Battier-like players in that their biggest contributions aren’t seen in the standard box score statistics.

by goingforthecorner on Feb 17, 2009 1:45 PM CST reply actions  

So

you are just going to ignore the statistical arguments BZ made and then say the other players are more Battier-like? That is exactly what BZ and these new statistics are trying to prevent.

by Wells on Feb 17, 2009 1:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Did you read this or just skim it and assume you knew what it said?
Connor directly impacts the team negatively with his terrible shooting %, along with his inability to rebound well.

Seriously, you didn’t read it, did you? It’s okay. Mea culpas accepted.

And although I made a comparison of outward appearances between Battier and Atchley in the second paragraph, this piece had absolutely nothing to do with saying Atchley is a Battier-like player. Yes, I think Justin Mason plays more like Battier than Atchley. So what? The point of this was that box score statistics like rebounds and shooting percentage only tell you about specific things a player is doing on offense, not the total effect that player is having on the offense. For real though, you can admit you didn’t read it.

by billyzane on Feb 17, 2009 1:53 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

No I read it

The problem is even the “sabermetric” stats have their own flaws (I think your table was cut off too). True shooting % doesn’t account for volume of shots and level of difficultly. His high FT% is one of the reasons why his TS% is decent, but he doesn’t shoot a lot of FTs anyway. No one can argue that besides one recent game, Connor completely lost his confidence in shooting (probably due to the fact that he was airballing shots). What I’m saying is his role this year was to be one of our best shooters, and he’s be a total bust at that role.

As for turnover rate, why should anyone be surprised? He never handles the ball, and this year, he never posts up. Where would he even be in position to turn it over? Maybe his disastrous in-bound passing.

On defense, he’s always been pretty solid. For most of this season, it’s the only thing he had going for him. His quickness allows him to intimidate shots, whether they result in blocks or not.

As for his rebounding, his OR% was high because Barnes wanted players to crash the boards. That’s more of a coaching strategy than anything. Pittman is clearly the better rebounder on both sides of the court than Connor, but Dexy gets in foul trouble with his aggressive rebounding.

What the Pomeroy stats really show was how valuable Augustin was for us last year.

by goingforthecorner on Feb 17, 2009 2:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, this at least addresses the issues in the article rather than ignoring them.

As for your claim on shooting percentages, you don’t make any sense. I very specifically said that he did not have good shooting percentages this year, but that he did last year. In fact, that was a theme of the piece (when he’s not shooting well like this year, he’s good, when he is shooting well like last year, he’s elite). Thus, the fact that his high FT percentage this year inflates his true shooting percentage doesn’t make one bit of difference to anything I said. And last year, his FT percentage was much lower 67% and thus did not unduly influence his true shooting percentage when it was actually good.

And your point about turnover essentially this: “If Connor were a completely different player, he would turn the ball over more.” Well, sure. If Connor ran point, he would have a lot more turnovers. But he doesn’t run point, just like he doesn’t post up. And thus he avoids turnovers and leaves those jobs to people less likely to turn the ball over in such a situation and instead does what he does best. See, that’s how a team becomes good. Different people all doing what they do best and leaving what they don’t do best to those who do it better. Teamwork!

And your rebounding point doesn’t really make any sense either. No one’s saying Atchley’s a better rebounder than Pittman. KenPom’s stats don’t say that. I never said Atchley is a great offensive or defensive rebounder, and he’s not either. I was making a point solely about how the difference between Atchley’s OR% and DR% makes a point about rebounding statistics generally and Atchley’s contributions to the team specifically.

by billyzane on Feb 17, 2009 2:26 PM CST up reply actions  

reply

With shooting percentage, I was talking about last year. He was posting up and made threes. He was really efficient last year, and his FT% while mediocre last year didn’t compare to his 2pt and 3pt FG%. What happened this year? You can’t just say it was all about DJ leaving.

My point about turnovers wasn’t that Connor defers intentionally to other players because he’s such a good team player (please tell me you were being sarcastic with that comment). How’s that teamwork looking this year? Our turnovers have skyrocketed, even if the stats show Connor wasn’t responsible. Truth is he is somewhat responsible for it, along with our overall offensive inefficiency. The point was he’s freaking useless on offense. Other than the OSU game, we’re talking about a total offensive black hole, and thus the criticism of him by so many people on here.

Because of his horrible FG% and lack of confidence, he is passing up shots and moving the ball around to people like Balbay, Mason, and Ward. Not a good idea. So your claim of Connor “leaving what they don’t do best to those who do it better” doesn’t make sense, considering that Connor going into the year was supposed to be one the players to finish plays with his efficient shot-making. You’re deflecting blame of his offensive sucktitude to other players.

by goingforthecorner on Feb 17, 2009 2:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Okay, we're back to where we started. You don't get this.
The point was he’s freaking useless on offense. Other than the OSU game, we’re talking about a total offensive black hole, and thus the criticism of him by so many people on here.

For the last time, scoring points and getting rebounds are not the only things that make one a good basketball player. And I never tried to sugar coat his terrible FG percentage. It’s terrible. He’s not shooting the ball well and the team would be a whole hell of a lot better if he was shooting it well. But my point was that even though he’s not shooting the ball well, he’s still an incredibly efficient offensive player because of all of the little things that he does that people like you don’t notice or understand (and yes, I was referring to you when I was talking about people who don’t understand why that punch out rebound was a good play: see here; that’s indicative of what i’m talking about here—people like you don’t see or don’t understand the good plays he makes because they don’t accumulate statistics and thus assume that unless he’s scoring or rebounding, he’s not playing well, that he’s an offensive black hole, while the actual statistics meant to track such things say the exact opposite).

by billyzane on Feb 17, 2009 2:58 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree . .

with much of what you’re saying BZ and like you I wish we had a more concrete +/- stat available, but looking at the Kenpom stats the one thing that jumped out at me was Atchley’s minutes. He’s averaging around 8 less minutes a game this year. If he’s so valuable to the team’s offensive efficiency, why isn’t he on the floor more?

by DoubleB on Feb 17, 2009 3:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Not everyone has the same appreciation for these stats.

Why does almost every team in the NBA not value Shane Battier the same amount as the Rockets do? Because the Rockets have a unique way of assessing his value that hasn’t really caught on yet. Rick Barnes doesn’t strike me as a huge stats guy. He’s more of a motivator. He probably recognizes a lot of the little things that Connor does to make the team better but still thinks that another player might be better offensively because Texas needs scoring. My point would be that Connor being on the floor helps other people score, but sometimes that’s not immediately obvious.

I don’t know. Maybe Rick Barnes doesn’t fully understand what Connor brings to the table, maybe it’s a desperate move to get ready for next year, maybe it’s just the emergence of Dexter Pittman and Gary Johnson as minutes-eaters that are cutting into Connor’s time, maybe it’s the fact that Connor was playing so out of his mind last year that he got more minutes than Barnes would have normally given him and this year (as he’s not been shooting well) his minutes have reverted back to what they would have been last year. Could be a number of reasons. I don’t think it’s fair to say that the fact that he’s getting less playing time means that he’s not as efficient as the numbers say he is.

by billyzane on Feb 17, 2009 3:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Regardless of what the NYTimes article said

plenty of teams appreciate Battier. He’s been struggling a bit this year because of his injury, but he was infamous for his stellar defensive game on Kobe Bryant last year, the game that gave the Rockets their 22nd victory in a row. There have been a lot of trade rumors involving Battier, but I imagine Morey and the Rockets are balking at them.

Connor is getting less playing time because Pittman with the right matchup is flat out better than him. Problem is Pittman is still slow and obviously can’t guard smaller, faster guys like Connor. If Dexy was more agile, he would be starting and Connor would get even less time unless Rick wants to play him at the 4.

I’d like to think Barnes understands Connor and his production more than you do, so I wouldn’t say Barnes “doesn’t fully understand what Connor brings to the table”. Maybe it’s you overvaluing what he brings to the table.

by goingforthecorner on Feb 17, 2009 3:33 PM CST up reply actions  

I said "I don't know" and then gave like 5 options for what it could be.

That’s certainly an option, though probably not as likely as several of the others.

by billyzane on Feb 17, 2009 3:40 PM CST up reply actions  

“I don’t think it’s fair to say that the fact that he’s getting less playing time means that he’s not as efficient as the numbers say he is.”

Just to be clear, I didn’t say that nor mean to imply it.

Your thoughts and ideas above make sense. My personal thought was that maybe his defense isn’t as good as we think it is.

by DoubleB on Feb 17, 2009 3:40 PM CST up reply actions  

I speculate it is b/c of fouls

see comment at end of thread that i was writing while y’all were writing

by jimmer on Feb 17, 2009 3:51 PM CST up reply actions  

What little things?

First of all lets be clear that we’re talking about offense and offense only. I’ve always thought he’s been solid for us defensively.

All you’ve done with this thread and throw out a few sabermetric stats (namely) ORT that YOU don’t even understand completely and came to the brilliant conclusion that he’s a great offensive player despite his poor shooting. You haven’t given us any facts. The only facts here are the stats, but what is completely subject to interpretation and opinion is your own view on what these stats mean with respect to Connor Atchley’s performance on offense. Nobody knows how exactly ORT is measured and why Connor’s ORT is what it is.

Lets look at your paragraph, stating that Connor “has a strongly positive effect on the offense while he is on the court”.

In sum, what this tells us is that even though the offense doesn’t really go through Connor Atchley (only taking 14.8% of the team’s shots that occur while he’s on the court this year and 16.5% last year), he has a strongly positive effect on the offense while he is on the court, as is Offensive Rating (ORtg) ranks him quite highly this year and was astronomical last year. ORtg is the efficiency statistic meant to measure what effect a certain player has on the offense. It’s effectively a modified +/- statistic that measures how well an offense does with the player on the floor versus with him off of it, and then figures out how much of that plus or minus is attributable to that individual player. This year, Atchley is behind only two players on the team, Dexter Pittman and AJ Abrams (for the record, Clint Chapman is last on the team with an abysmal 67.1 ORtg). Last year, Atchley was behind only 11 other players in the entire NCAA, among those who played at least 40% of their team’s minutes.

Connor taking just 14.8% of the shots this year is supposed to be a bad thing. He shoots less, because he’s struggled from the field. The FG% supports that obvious fact. If he was making more shots, he’d shoot more, and thus his shot% would increase. As for ORTg, you even said it’s a “modified +/-”. Seeing how +/- is more a reflection of rotations, I’d like to think Connor has a decent +/- considering he’s starting, as in playing with the best teammates on the roster like Augustin last year, and Abrams and James this year. You can’t just throw these stats and say, “see? I told you Connor is a good offensive player! Look at these stats I don’t even fully understand!”

And we obviously interpret “the play” differently. Connor dangerously tipped that ball out. It could have easily been deflected to an A&M player. Maybe I’ll have to watch it again, but I believe Connor could have caught that ball with two hands, and then deliver a better pass to Abrams, that would’ve actually resulted in something positive.

I’d like you to explain why Connor, Mason, and Ward aren’t offensive black holes using actual basketball language rather than stats that we don’t even know how they’re calculated. Good luck with that.

by goingforthecorner on Feb 17, 2009 3:26 PM CST up reply actions  

I can't go on like this forever, but...

First of all, plenty of people know exactly how ORtg is calculated. They bought the book, studied it, and decided it was a good measure of offensive efficiency. I do not own the book. I trust Ken Pomeroy, who has a lot more experience than you or I in adapting metrics for college basketball, that this is a “very accurate” measure, as he says. I’ll trust him over you, thank you very much. No offense, of course.

And please point out exactly where I said Connor taking a small percentage of shots is a bad thing. I’ll wait. Nothing? Oh right, that’s because I never said that.

Second of all, if the fact that Connor started is the reason his offensive efficiency is so high, how come Justin Mason’s is so much lower? And then surely the fact that Connor has been coming off the bench the last few weeks would kill it right? Because he doesn’t have any good players playing with him?

The point is that these statistics were developed by people whose jobs it is to develop such statistics to measure the very things you are claiming they do not measure. They say that Connor Atchley is a very efficient offensive basketball player. I relayed this statistical information to you and gave about 8 reasons why this could be. Here they are! In actual basketball language, just like you asked! Never mind that I gave them to you before you asked! Whatever!

There’s the rotation on defense that Connor is so good at, flashing an arm out in front of a cutting offensive player to deny him the ball, weakside help defense, cutting off the high pick and roll without getting too far out of position, and always keeping his blocked shots in bounds. On offense, it’s the subtle moving screen he sets at the top of the key and the flash out for the 3 that defenses still respect, boxing out the weak-side to allow someone else to go get a rebound, keeping the spacing in tact in a way that our other big men just can’t or don’t.

Oh, and there’s also the example I gave where you thought it was a terrible play when it was in fact a good play. But whatever.

by billyzane on Feb 17, 2009 3:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Like I already said

Statistics alone won’t tell you the whole story. You still have to interpret the stats to make an argument. All that good stuff you said about Connor, the spacing and screening… how’s that working out? Our team offensive stats have plummeted this year, and Connor completely disappearing as a reliable offensive weapon has something to do with that. In the end it’s all about putting the ball in the basket, and Connor’s great spacing among other things is moot if the team can’t shoot well. Connor is one of those guys that can’t shoot straight, and it’s killing us on offense. And because of it, he can do his sensational screening and spacing off the bench. Kudos to Rick for making the right move.

Second of all, if the fact that Connor started is the reason his offensive efficiency is so high, how come Justin Mason’s is so much lower? And then surely the fact that Connor has been coming off the bench the last few weeks would kill it right? Because he doesn’t have any good players playing with him?

It’s been… what, 3 games with Connor coming off the bench? One of them was his best game of the season against a terrible OSU team. Why is Mason’s lower? I don’t know… why don’t you tell me? Perhaps Mason’s position has something to do with it, or maybe he plays with our offensive scrubs more than Connor? Who freaking knows. It just illustrates the misleading nature of ORTg.

You seem to act like ORTg is supposed to be some sort of absolute rating to someone’s offensive game. I’ve got news for you, it’s not. If it’s based on +/- like you said, then ORTg, like +/- is much more of a rotational thing. It means if you look at our best 5-man rotation, the 5 players will probably lead the team in ORTg, correct? I’m going to guess the majority of the starters are in our top 5.

by goingforthecorner on Feb 17, 2009 4:01 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm out.

I’m not continuing this. You think I rely too much on statistics; I think you don’t have the first clue about how the sport of basketball works and that you’re too stubborn to admit it. We’re getting nowhere. See you on the live blogs next time you complain about someone else doing something right.

by billyzane on Feb 17, 2009 4:09 PM CST up reply actions  

I've been watching pro basketball since the early 90s

so obviously I don’t have much appreciation for your condescending view on this. At least you admitted your over-relying on statistics. And since stats can be very misleading (the whole premise of the NYTimes article), you know where I stand on this.

by goingforthecorner on Feb 17, 2009 4:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Once again, READ what I am WRITING.

I never “admitted” any over-reliance on stats. I said that you think I over-rely on them as a way to make a point that this conversation is beyond hope. The fact that you don’t actually read what I write just further proves it.

by billyzane on Feb 17, 2009 4:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Apologies for being condescending.

I don’t mean to imply that I am some basketball genius. I certainly understand basketball, but all I’m doing right here is relaying basketball information from certifiable basketball experts and then saying that everything I’ve seen backs this up. You are saying, “No, I know better than both you and those experts.” That’s fine, but it’s a stretch and pretty damn stubborn.

And also, the premise of the article was that TRADITIONAL, “bow score” statistics are misleading and that newer efficiency statistics are in fact reliable. I don’t know what your point is.

by billyzane on Feb 17, 2009 5:42 PM CST up reply actions  

I think this blog proves

that watching basketball does not always make you an expert.

by Wells on Feb 17, 2009 7:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Agreed

very few fans of the game would be considered “experts”. You’re not going to find many experts on here either.

by goingforthecorner on Feb 17, 2009 10:23 PM CST up reply actions  

hey, don't feel bad...

although sabermetricians were the first to truly appreciate his greatness, I don’t think Joe Morgan really truly believes what the numbers say either…

in this case, every single post basically is saying that there’s nothing you’re going to say or show that’s going to change what the eyes are telling him. Nowhere further to go. But, on the other hand, I find your whole post intriguing. As always, wish we had better info at hand – that used to be Bill James’ mantra every year back in the early 80’s with his Baseball Abstracts, which were truly phenomenal…

by Pflash on Feb 17, 2009 4:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Uh huh

clearly what Connor did was right because it led to another possession for A&M. If Pittman was in that possession, we would’ve gone for the rebound and then made the outlet pass to Abrams if he was open.

by goingforthecorner on Feb 17, 2009 4:29 PM CST up reply actions  

“What I’m saying is his role this year was to be one of our best shooters, and he’s be a total bust at that role.”

Was that his projected role this year? He averaged 6 shots a game last year (and about 1.5 FTAs) in what amounts to about 28 minutes per game. He’s averaging about 4.5 shots a game this year (and a little over 1 FTA) in just less than 20 minutes per game this year. That doesn’t seem like a guy who was ever intended to light it up on offense. At best, he’s a third scoring option.

That being said, if Connor is so valuable, why is he averaging 8 minutes less per game? I don’t think it’s foul trouble.

by DoubleB on Feb 17, 2009 2:39 PM CST up reply actions  

His projected role

wasn’t supposed to be some volume shooter like Abrams. I never said that. His projected role on offense was to knock down open threes and be an inside presence with his post-up game, just like last year, and he has failed miserably. I never said he should be our 3rd leading scorer or 3rd leading FGA. I did expect him to be efficient and useful on offense with his shooting. Maybe 8-10 shots per game. He hasn’t, and it’s probably the 2nd reason next to Augustin leaving on why this team has plummeted in offensive efficiency. One of your most efficient offensive players went into a season long funk.

by goingforthecorner on Feb 17, 2009 2:50 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree with your point that he has failed in his shooting this year. I think that’s pretty clear both from stats as well as the eyeball test. That being said, shooters actually shoot the ball and I just don’t ever see how that was a major part of his game. When things are going well, he’s a 5-6 shots a game guy that teams can’t just ignore. I think anyone who projected him being a guy to take 8-10 shots a game (which would be around the 3rd leading shot-taker on the team) were overselling his personal scoring abilities.

by DoubleB on Feb 17, 2009 3:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Question

If the statistics are meant to show how the team performs with player X in the game versus when player X is not in the game, how do you separate player X’s contributions the person that subs for him? In other words, is it possible that Connor seems to be really efficient because when he is replaced, the person that replaces him is just substantially worse, inflating Connor’s relative stats? Like Connor being in is good because someone else is not. I’m guessing Pomeroy tries to account for that, but I’m not sure how.

Obviously this only applies to a few select statistics like the ORtg.

by jw4425 on Feb 17, 2009 2:15 PM CST reply actions  

In short, I'm not sure how, but it does.

The formula KenPom uses is incredibly complex and was developed by someone else and published in a book. While it’s not exactly “proprietary,” KenPom does not divulge the formula, instead saying “if you want to see it, go buy this guy’s book.”

I oversimplified what the formula does in my explanation. It’s not simply a comparison to how well the team does with/without the player in the lineup. I don’t fully understand it, but it’s more than that.

by billyzane on Feb 17, 2009 2:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Thanks

Yeah I did the readup on KenPom and it was fairly cryptic. Was wondering if you could explain it offhand, but it doesn’t sound like that kind of formula… Thanks though, this was a good read.

by jw4425 on Feb 17, 2009 2:31 PM CST up reply actions  

It's too bad they don't have +/- stats in college

+/- along with adjusted +/- not only suggests the best rotations to use but who’s actually useless and who’s contributing regardless of what the standard box scores say.

by goingforthecorner on Feb 17, 2009 2:33 PM CST up reply actions  

yeah. there are just so many teams to keep track of.

i’m sure barnes has someone on staff do it for them. i just wish the info was public.

by billyzane on Feb 17, 2009 2:38 PM CST up reply actions  

More than any info, I wish this were public.

I bet it would shut a lot of guys up on this board.

-rBr-

by run Bevo run on Feb 17, 2009 5:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Barnes

has commented that they use the +/-, and I think that is why he does so much rotating early in the year, but has slowed down in conference.

by jimmer on Feb 17, 2009 3:33 PM CST up reply actions  

I can haz Connor in the Association?

Seriously though, great write-up.

Another interesting comparison between the two is that like Atchley, Battier is struggling mightily with his counting and rate statistics this year (although likely mostly due to injury recovery). Keeping in mind that I don’t get a chance to watch every Longhorns or Rockets game, but on the ones I do, both Battier and Atchley are also not passing the subjective eyeball test. Yeah, Battier’s still a good looking defender, and Atchley still gets a few nice blocks and help D plays a game, but neither is performing to the level at which we are accustomed to seeing them.

Love the statistical analysis, BZ. The Barkers also have a nice discussion going on their site.

by jc25 on Feb 17, 2009 2:48 PM CST reply actions  

Lewis article was great and nice write up on Connor, BZ

One thing mentioned in the article is that fouling is the worst thing you can do on defense. A look at Atchley’s fouls might help explain why his minutes are down. (FPG = fouls per game)

Season – FPG – MPG
2007-08 – 2.68 – 27.6
2008-09 – 2.66 – 20.6

Same number of fouls per game this year, but fouling a lot more often. This year a foul every 7:45, last year a foul every 10:20.

Basically, Connor has gotten into foul trouble more often which is the way he has hurt our team, not by shooting poorly. Think about how many times he has picked up two fouls early in the first half and had to sit down until the second half.

Having a very efficient player on the bench does not help your team.

by jimmer on Feb 17, 2009 3:48 PM CST reply actions  

Possibly.

And it’s not just number of fouls either, as you say, it’s when those fouls come. 2 fouls in the first half isn’t bad, if the second one comes with a minute left. 2 fouls with 18 minutes left and you’re sitting out the rest of the 1st.

by billyzane on Feb 17, 2009 4:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Looking more closely . .

I think this whole thing might be simpler than we think. Look closely at Atchley’s minutes. For the first 7 games of the year, he’s averaging 27.3 minutes a game and shoots 20-39 from the floor (51) including 9-20 (45) from 3 point range—basically the Atchley we all thought we were going to get this year, hell probably a little better. His minutes drop precipitously after the UCLA game (16.6 per game for the next 5 games). He plays 8 total minutes of game action from 12/23 to 1/10 when his minutes climb for the next four games (23.7 per game). In the last 7 games, his average has dropped back to 16.7 minutes per game.

I don’t know if this has been mentioned, but I think Atchley is still hurting from the ankle injury in December and that’s why he’s not on the floor as much. It could also be affecting his shooting ability as well as his defense (picking up more fouls per minute as previously noted).

Much of this is speculation but the drop in minutes from the first 7 games of the year to now is eye-popping to say the least.

by DoubleB on Feb 17, 2009 6:23 PM CST reply actions  

Pittman

His emergence certainly has to have a lot to do with it as well.

by jw4425 on Feb 17, 2009 6:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Few factors

One was that while his stats were solid in his first 7 games, look at the competition. The only team of that 7 that will probably make the tournament is UCLA (Notre Dame has collapsed in conference play). While his % was decent, he didn’t shoot a lot. His double digit point totals were against Stetson, Tulane, and Rice. Back then I was complaining that he didn’t get enough shots and we didn’t post him up. I guess I know why now.

Foul trouble is probably was caused his initial drop in minutes starting with UCLA. I’m looking at his game log and you can see he committed either 3 or 4 fouls from the St. Joes game all the way to the Wisconsin game. Then he cut his tongue in the next game against App St.

Then around that time was when we somewhat saw the emergence of Pittman, like jw4425 alluded to.

by goingforthecorner on Feb 17, 2009 7:02 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't know how foul trouble

would be the cause of his initial drop in minutes. He was getting 3 and 4 fouls a game, but averaging nearly 30 minutes from St. Joe’s to UCLA. He was getting the same 3 and 4 fouls a game from Villanova to Wisconsin but his minutes dropped to 17 a game. I find it hard to believe he was in serious foul trouble early enough in each game for 5 games in a row to cut his minutes that dramatically.

I would agree his early stats COULD be explained by the competition.

Pittman’s minutes are all over the map. He takes minutes from Atchley, but it’s not a zero sum game (they played a combined 48 minutes against Oklahoma and a combined 25 against Nebraska). It might explain why Atchley hasn’t received 30 minutes in any game since UCLA, but I don’t believe it explains why Atchley has averaged just over 18 in the 16 games since then (not including App State).

by DoubleB on Feb 17, 2009 7:37 PM CST up reply actions  

It's definitely a combination of things

Pittman, foul trouble, matchups, his own struggles. Only Barnes gets to see these guys in practice, and perhaps he feels Connor shouldn’t be playing as much in certain games. Same thing with Pittman’s sporadic minutes. Pittman wouldn’t be as effective against teams that are guard-oriented vs teams like OU/A&M with big guys.

If Wangmene was here, I bet Connor’s minutes would’ve further decreased.

by goingforthecorner on Feb 17, 2009 10:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Forget the stats for a sec

We all know that Atchley does not feel comfortable in current system. He is out of position too often and in offensive side of the ball he is limited to shooting 3 pointers. We no longer see his hook shots or floaters as we did last year.
Atchley missing vital 1 on 1 at A&M game was bad…really bad

COACH BOOM BABY!!

by hookemkp on Feb 17, 2009 8:05 PM CST reply actions  

I wonder how Pomeroy, etc

take into account the FT% since missing the front end of a 1 and 1 is more damaging of a miss than any other type of FT.

by goingforthecorner on Feb 17, 2009 10:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Wow.

Reading the back and forth going on between BZ and GFTC during the first 30 or so posts was absolutely painful. Absolutely painful.

These Pomeroy stats are interesting and are ONE method of determing a players value. As are many other things that can be both observed with the naked eye and quantified through statistics.

In tonights OKC versus NO game, Kevin Durant poured in 47 points with a +/- of +1. While Nenad Krstic had a team-high +/- of +13. Clearly, Kevin Durant was more valuable than Nenad Krstic in tonight’s game. But perhaps there is something to be said for the play of Nenad Krstic.

Likewise, surely there are some decent things that Connor is doing. Much of these intangibles can be observed. BZ continues to point out the tip out which is debatable as to whether or not that was a “good” play. Watching it live, it looked to me like Connor had a chance to catch it or perhaps give it a more controlled slap, but I didn’t rewind it and over-analyze it and then try to call out other people with my incredible basketball knowledge about how great it was. I was drinking some beers, we weren’t playing that well, and frankly I didn’t care enough. But I did care enough to enter a post in this thread.

Anyways, my point is that the Offenseive efficiency and Defensive efficiency ratings are a nice “new tool” to use to determine a players worth, just like OPS and other “new stats” are transforming the way people look at baseball.

It shouldn’t be that hard to re-watch a game and focus just on Connor and try to determine what these great things are that Connor does. I would be interested to see a write-up taking 2 or 3 games, with a running commentary during every offensive possession showing exactly what Connor is doing and how it impacted the success or lack of success during each possession.

Time to get naked.

by froggiebaby on Feb 17, 2009 10:51 PM CST reply actions  

It was painful to be a part of too, buddy.

And I wasn’t trying to make my superior basketball knowledge known. I don’t have some super basketball genius, I’ll admit that. But I know basketball, better than I know football. What GFTC was saying offended everything I know about basketball as well as everything all these statistical metrics said, which got me riled up and caused me to ridicule his knowledge. I shouldn’t have done it.

But regardless of how the comments got completely off track, the point of the article itself was merely that these statistics show Connor being a very efficient offensive player and that my personal experiences watching Connor on the offensive end lead me to believe that they are accurate statistics. Thus, I think that Connor is underrated by many Texas fans. That’s all I wrote.

by billyzane on Feb 18, 2009 12:36 AM CST up reply actions  

Great write up BZ...

And I completely understand the premise and point of your article. That said, even if I concede that Connor is a very efficient player, can’t I still be disappointed in his overall play this season?

Maybe efficient isn’t good enough because the expectations for him were so high this year. And while he is still obtaining a high ORtg, the belief that he had elevated himself into an elite player, not a good role player, has been at the very corp of why so many of us are disappointed in him this year. Last year, he was so good, so aggressive and hungry at both ends of the court, that we expected more from him this time around (or at least the same). He may scramble for a loose ball and set a good screen, but he doesn’t look like the same relentless competitor he was last season. I remember him as a sophomore against LSU when he ran down the lane and dunked in a missed shot and I first saw a flash of how good he could be. Last year, he showed so much progress, his points were up, he was a good defender, and he had above average passing skills for a big man.

This season, he seems content to sit out on the wing and wait to chuck up a three (and have a 29% chance of making it). Of his 109 shots this season, 62 have been 3 pointers (about 56% of his shots). Contrast that to last season when only 40% of his field goal attempts were 3-pointers. That tells me he isn’t attacking the basket, getting second chance opportunities, or using his size to post up down low.

He may be the smartest player we have on the court, and you may value that more than points and rebounds, but I can’t do the same. His statistics have fallen to about equal those of his sophomore season. Undoubtedly, many of his struggles can be blamed on the well documented point guard struggles this season. But, from a senior who was projected to be a first round draft pick before the season began, many of us expected more than efficiency and leadership from Connor. We expected a game changer, not a hustle guy who can’t buy a bucket to save his life and isn’t making any effort to attack the basket or get the ball inside. I’m no basketball expert. I played varsity ball in high school and watch a lot but my knowledge is very limited. And while I have looked over Pom’s site, I still can’t put too much into those statistics when I watch him play and see that he isn’t nearly as aggressive as he has been in the past.

by the1austin on Feb 18, 2009 11:51 AM CST reply actions  

Absolutely. Excellent points.

He’s a shell of what he was last year. If last year is the baseline, he’s having an incredibly disappointing year. His ORtg agrees too, dropping from 127.1 to 112.8, so you can’t say the statistics don’t line up with reality. My beef isn’t with the disappointment fans feel about his season. I am disappointed with his season as well, considering what we saw last year.

My beef was with people who consider Connor’s presence on the floor an “offensive black hole” to use a choice phrase. He never really scored a lot or rebounded a lot, and he’s doing even less of it this year than he did last year. But that doesn’t mean he’s not helping out on the offensive end. He’s quite helpful was my point. He shouldn’t be banished to the bench because what he does for the offense, while it’s not nearly what he did for the offense last year, is still helpful.

by billyzane on Feb 18, 2009 12:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Rebounds don't seem to add up

If you have 10 guys on the court at any one time for every shot missed each man has 10% chance of getting the rebound hypothetically. If you know that the defense is likely to be between the basket and the man their guarding then for each shot the chance the defense gets the rebound is higher. If you suppose the front court men are closer to the basket most of the time than the guards then they have a little better chance of getting the rebound. No matter how you slice it there are still 100% to divide up

If atchley is getting a rebound 6.7% of the offensive rebounds that leaves 93.3% for the other nine players. If the three front court opponents are getting 12.4% (Same as atchley on defense)each that’s 37.2% subtract Atchley 6.7% that 43.9% and leaves 56.1% for the other six players. If the last 2 defensive player do 10% that leaves 36.1% for the other four horns which is 9% for each and every one on the court does much better than Atchley.
How many rebounds are there that nobody gets? rebounds that go out of bounds?

by Xerxes on Feb 18, 2009 12:30 PM CST reply actions  

No, 100% adds up to the total amount of rebounds that could possibly be offensive rebounds.

He’s not getting 7.9% of all offensive rebounds. The idea is that every rebound that comes off of your own team’s miss is a potential offensive rebound. So all of your team’s offensive rebounds plus all of the other team’s defensive rebounds (i.e. rebounds that COULD have been offensive rebounds but weren’t) add up to 100%.

So say that’s 100 potential offensive rebounds for your team. You adjust for the amount of time the player is on the court, say 50% of the time, so there were 50 potential offensive rebounds for Atchley. And so if he gets 5 offensive rebounds, then that’s a 10% offensive rebound percentage, which is actually pretty good. For more information, see the links I posted in the article that take you to the formula explanations.

by billyzane on Feb 18, 2009 1:07 PM CST up reply actions  

The Battier trade might be one of the worst the Rockets have made....

They traded their No.7 pick( after drafting) Rudy Gay to the Grizzlies for Battier. If the Rockets have some new way of assessing talent that involves moves like this, my guess is that it’s not going to catch on with the rest of the NBA.
Most NBA teams would probably rather have Gay than Battier, imo….

by SneezyBeltran on Feb 18, 2009 12:38 PM CST reply actions  

This is easily debatable

It’s pretty much half and half with Rockets fans on that trade. I still support the Battier trade, because he was meant to be a nice complimentary player for Yao and McGrady. IF we were able to predict all these injuries, then perhaps we keep Gay. But after reading the NYTimes, certainly your appreciation for him has to rise. Gay is putting up a lot of points on a crappy team. No accountability on the defensive end, and he doesn’t make his teammates better. The NYTimes article states Battier makes his teammates better almost abnormally.

by goingforthecorner on Feb 18, 2009 2:23 PM CST up reply actions  

I'll agree that much of Connor's criticism is unfair

Nonetheless, considering what a great year he had last season, I don’t think it was unfair to expect him to improve. The fact that he hasn’t shown it is disappointing. There are of course a lot of different factors as to why that is, but it’s still a bummer.

Atchley is far from useless and he obviously was never expected (or shouldn’t have been expected) to light up the scoreboard, but we expected more from him. Remember his performance against KU last season at the Erwin Center? He’s one of the main reasons we won. It’s unreasonable to expect Connor to be that good every game, but the fact that he now seems almost incapable of exploding like that if he’s given the opportunity is a step backwards. I think most will agree that his play is below what his capabilities are, which is more like young Connor than anything. Even Durant recognized that Atchley often played below his abilities and tried to help him get out of it.

by TheElusiveShadow on Feb 18, 2009 2:06 PM CST reply actions  

That's the gist of it

Expectations is why I’m so disappointed. His role this year wasn’t supposed to be relegated to a glue player, where his biggest contributions are invisible to the box score. There’s nothing wrong with glue players, but we’re already loaded with them at the guard position with Mason, Balbay, and Ward. There’s too much glue on this team, and not enough players that can put the ball in the hole. I would still call him an offensive blackhole.

I never thought he should be permanently benched, because he’s easily our best defending big man, but it’s completely justified that he comes off the bench. Johnson and Pittman are both outplaying him.

the1austin also brought up another good point. You would think Connor would be more of a leader this year, considering he’s a senior. Leadership shouldn’t be expected out of players, but his basketball IQ is the only thing that even makes him look like a senior. Of course, leadership is another big reason why we miss Augustin. Right now it seems Barnes has taken over all leadership roles. It doesn’t seem like we really talk on the court.

by goingforthecorner on Feb 18, 2009 2:29 PM CST up reply actions  

I still wonder

What ever happened to that sweet little hook shot Connor used last year?

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.

by Caradoc on Feb 20, 2009 6:17 PM CST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Burnt Orange Nation, a blog dedicated to University of Texas athletics. Get BON updates via Twitter.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Photo_57_small
Y'all Can Still Call Me GoBR
Tabasco-gallon-jugs-9_small
Happy NSD Aggies!!!!
Jersey_front_small
A Recruiting Reminder

Recent FanPosts

Small
Texas Women's Basketball
Tabasco-gallon-jugs-9_small
Nike helmet redesign
Horns_small
Rivals 100 released
Small
Don't mess with Texas.
Superman_small
Breakdown of Each Position (Defense)
Superman_small
Breakdown of Each Position (Offense)
Small
Big 12 Expansion is Back!
Small
Miles Onyegbule...why not TE?
Photo_on_11-10-11_at_6
Early Predictions for Fall Depth Chart (Defense)
Photo_on_11-10-11_at_6
Follow the Bouncing Ball

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Site Editors

Pb3_small Peter Bean

Dark_pumpkin_small awiggo

Photo_57_small Wescott Eberts (GoBR)

Contributing Authors

Gse_multipart20834_small 40AS

Pigeons_small billyzane

Zombie_profilepic_small Horn Brain

220px-learnedhand_small learned hand

Jersey_front_small 54b

Small whills

Me_small burnt in ny

600px-lorenz_attractor_ybsvg_small pleaseplaykindle

Small TheElusiveShadow

Rosebowl_small txtwstr7

Silhouette_bull_crop_small TXStampede

Brandedbevo1024x768_small dimecoverage

Whataburger_small Hopkins Horn

Pic_small Reggieball

Debonair_pic_small GoHornsGo90

Dkr_small InDKR'sShadow

Profile_pic_small billfromlaketravis

Peterson_small ElongatedHorn

Small Cat8