Letter to BON
by JYarbs on Mar 3, 2009 5:54 PM CST
61 comments
First, allow me to express my sincere appreciation to PB and the other site editors for their effort spent ensuring 'The Nation' receives timely, thought-provoking news and insights pertaining to our dearly beloved Longhorns.
I have a few concerns that I wanted to bring to the attention of the masses. Most of my observations were already addressed in PB's eloquent and aptly timed Morning Coffee post from yesterday; however, I do think that they accrue to one major point that, based on my albeit short time as a member, I am fully confident that many already understand and share.
BON is remarkable in many respects. I'm a sports fan in every sense of the word and regularly visit sports blogs and communities of various forms and sizes that collectively inform my opinions and help me understand what's happening with the teams about which I am passionate. While each of these sites offers me something different, none can hold a candle to the emotive impact BON has on its readers. Many bloggers and journalists do an exceptional job of pulling back the veil and exposing the inter-workings of teams to their audiences; however, BON is unique in its ability to communicate the emotional roller-coaster one feels through the course of a game, week, month, season or lifetime as a fan.
That's really the appeal of BON (and more broadly, SB Nation) in a way - it is purely and exclusively a community for fans, by fans. Of course, not all SB Nation communities are created equally, and BON rises above the rest primarily due to the obvious - the University of Texas fan base has not, is not and will never be matched (and it isn't even close).
Forgive the long-winded explanation, but I wanted to first provide some context before I make a critique. In recent weeks, I've noticed a troublesome trend (which is sadly very apparent in this thread) that involves long-time posters and regulars making unnecessarily harsh criticisms on FanPosts and other comments that lack a certain level of, how should I say, 'intellectual stimulation.' I'll be honest, I am a communicator by profession (public relations), and thus have a particular fondness of words and well-crafted arguments (part of the reason I frequent BON). However, I fully understand that many either lack the time or energy required to create a post that would come close to equaling the level produced by PB or his cohorts. So I ask, why should an ill-reasoned Fan Shot or comment elicit such vehement responses?
Naturally some members will feel the need to opine based on their knowledge, experience and/or research, but do we really need to get into a verbal pissing match geared more towards belittling another member than towards sharing facts and educating the constituency? Simply put, making someone feel stupid on a message board doesn't prove a thing, building consensus takes talent..
I'd hate to leave you only with a problem and no recommended solutions, so a few parting thoughts.
1.) Before dismissing someone else's comment or commentary, we should all think about motives. Is it such a malicious or off-base statement that you feel you must set the record straight, or do you simply want this person to know that your logic is superior to their own. If it's the latter, try to figure out a different tactic. Remember, Gandhi taught us a valuable lesson when he demonstrated that the decision not to react is often the most powerful action of all.
2.) Learn to let it go. The need to have the 'last word' is often a character flaw. If a single blue county in a red state proves anything, it is that we can both acknowledge our differences and embrace one another by focusing on our similarities.
Hook 'em.
All comments, FanPosts, and FanShots are the views of the reader-authors who create them.
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I've seen this movie before...
Funny how the same thing happened last year about this time…must be the tides.
Be nobody but yourself in a world that desperately wants you to be like everybody else.
by 54b on Mar 3, 2009 7:10 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Ah yes, the Footballoholic...I know him well
Be nobody but yourself in a world that desperately wants you to be like everybody else.
by 54b on Mar 3, 2009 7:43 PM CST up reply actions
BONer
I was re-reading that tonight and it seems that only about half of the examples you used for each type of BONer are still around.
Then I realized that was over two years ago.
They're still with us in spirit...
except for the one that got banned of course.
But even though a lot of those guys don’t post as often as they once did, the archetypes they represent seem to be ever present…on this site and many other community sites I’d imagine.
Be nobody but yourself in a world that desperately wants you to be like everybody else.
by 54b on Mar 4, 2009 8:53 AM CST up reply actions
I’m still a huge fan of this article… even two years down the road. I haven’t been as vocal about womens’ sports this year as I would have liked (being in London limits my chances to actually attend in person) but Volleyball season is only 5 months away!
Back to the original post – I too am a fan of words, and have read with dismay posts that were intended to wound, or to prove how much bigger their manhood is. So your comments are much appreciated, and I hope our fellow BON’ers take them to heart.
Still a Blaine Irby fan
by patienthornsfan on Mar 4, 2009 3:52 AM CST up reply actions
Amen
Well said, sir. And thanks.
I sincerely wish folks would take seriously the easiest rule of thumb imaginable: If you want to engage another on the merits of their view, go for it. If you just think they’re dumb… ignore. Walk away. Make a mental note not to read their future Fan Posts. Whatever it takes to avoid the nastiness of other boards.
--PB--
by Peter Bean on Mar 3, 2009 7:11 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Totally agree
I’ve been around a while and attempted to post and reply to threads in the past but recently I haven’t frequented BON as much as I have as in the past for JYarbs reasons. Lord knows I haven’t always been intellectually stimulating in my posts (or sober) but those types of comments really deter me from the BON experience even more than the bandwagon or “old maid aunt” fans.
Agree
BON, I think, often overcompensates and overstates the presence and significance of bad fandom. All fanbases (all populations, really) have a low-minded element, and while I agree that such factions are detrimental to rational debate and higher discourse, they are more easily marginalized through an elevation of proper discourse by those who hold such concerns (ie: leading by example), and a regular policy of refusing to acknowledge any member who attempts to lower the form of discourse on this site (ie: if an inarticulate post fails to generate any thoughtful responses, simply choose not to engage the poster, as such failure should prompt him either to try again, or to go away).
But the arrogant put-downs and name-calling that go on at this site come across more as self-righteous and high-horse than as well-intended policing. And I agree with your final sentiment. To me, this behavior is far more detrimental to the site than are the famed “Old Maid Aunt” fans, a phenomenon shared by all fanbases.
by BrooklynHorn on Mar 4, 2009 10:57 AM CST up reply actions
Thank You
I am the guy who posted the Fanpost that you referenced above. That was actually my first post on any blog ever. I created the post at work on a Monday with lots of work awaiting me. The post was not meant to be intellectual or stimulating, I was just trying to talk football. That being said, “When in Rome, do as the Romans do”. I will make sure that my future post are stronger.
HOOK EM!
First off I hate to read personal attacks, or name calling, crap like that. Even against Aggies, Sooners, whatever, there’s just no place for it, I think we can hold discourse above that level.
But railing on someones grammar (if its detrimental to their point) or poor content I feel like is perfectly justified. The readership to demands a level a quality from people who feel the need to contribute content beyond comments, and that’s not a bad thing. Part of what makes BON a good site is not just the front page material, but that you know if you hit up the fanshots or fanposts you will get good quality content as well. Maintaining that is important as well. Since there is no editorial review from the site owners of submitted material, its up to the public to decide what we find acceptable.
I will make sure that my future post are stronger.
Glad to hear it, seriously. As much as I love the main page material, I probably read other users content about twice as often.
I’m also glad that some people who came and posted several fanposts that couldn’t put together good material have more or less been run off from doing so by their efforts. I don’t want to have to ignore a large number of fanposts because I know their authors aren’t putting forth something worthy of my time, unless that becomes a feature in SBN so that I don’t even have to see them in my list.
With very few exceptions, I don’t think anyone wants to hurt or demean someone, but if you are submitting your work for peer review, we do want effort and content, and if we don’t get it, we will let you know. And that is a very big part of why we have so much high quality content outside of the editors.
by BoddickerIsClutch on Mar 4, 2009 8:27 AM CST up reply actions
I wholly agree with this point
Especially re: the lack of editorial review of individual member submitted content. I think its criticism is warranted, short name calling and personal attacks, to the point of maintaining the high level of posted content that this community is built upon and has come to expect.
If youre a member of this community and you just want to talk football, there are posts every day that you can do so IN THE COMMENTS.
I believe fanposts and fanshots should be reserved for a higher level of discussion or when there is an important issue to bring to the attention of the community.
PineypointG. I surely did not mean to attack you as an individual. Im glad to have any and all new members to the community. I apologize if you felt I was unwelcoming or that I was insinuating you were unintelligent.
like these?
http://www.burntorangenation.com/2008/12/25/702064/best-christmas-present-eve
http://www.lonestarball.com/2008/8/7/588896/ot-bad-radio-three-6-mafia
http://www.burntorangenation.com/2008/4/18/17319/9408
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs -- ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
-- Harold Thurman
Im not sure what your point is
in regards to the lonestarball OT post, what care is it of yours what i post on other forums? and how does that relate to the issue at hand on this forum?
And I think the other 2 posts stand on their own merit and contributed something that was relevant to the BON community and well articulated.
good effort though.
Point is your posts meant nothing to me. Period. Zero. Waste of my life even looking it up. But..
you enjoyed it and others may have as well. That’s the point of a fan post. Some will get it, some wont. To each their own so stop worrying about what others write or if it meets your subjective and meaningless standards.
Why does it matter how you post on other forums? I was curious to see if you hold yourself to the same standards that you judge others by, that’s all.
As for your opinion that it was relevant, a whole 5 people weighed in on your best Christmas ever(some are offended by the notion of Christmas, by the way). So as long as you deem it relevant for the community, then it is. Got it.
Thanks for caring enough to evaluate my effort. I can only hope that one day I round up enough brain cells to meet or exceed your expectations.
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs -- ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
-- Harold Thurman
Having content isnt a meaningless standard.
I assume getting into a definition of content would be the next question, so Ill pre-empt it with an attempt at answering.
Content, is posting a fact, or an opinion backed up by facts. It could also be commentary on an event that people generally are expected to have seen, thus making it fact (ie last nights game), or even on events that happen in our cyber-world (posts like this) that the readership is expected to be familiar with (and thus know as fact).
What would not constitute as having content, would be posts with baseless opinions. Like saying Dogus is a bad point guard, with no specific backup information. A post with content along the same lines, would say that Dogus is a bad point guard because he cannot make a jump shot and shoots X% from the line, two things that a good point guard requires!
It doesn’t matter if you care about the content or not, it matters that there is content there. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a comment on here along the lines of “Who cares?” , but there are plenty along the lines of “Your post lacks content.” Which I still maintain, is an overall good thing for the community.
Grammar I’m terrible at as well and don’t care that much about, unless it deters from conveying the information. Its possible I’ve corrected the “grammer” spelling before, but only when its people who deserved it.
-Dogus, I love you as a point guard, my example meant nothing in terms of my regard for you as a player, a student, and as my favorite Turk. Don’t ever change. Well, I mean, Id like you to change your jump shot, but you get what I mean.
by BoddickerIsClutch on Mar 4, 2009 5:11 PM CST up reply actions
Fair enough. But taken too far and you lose genuine discourse.
People start worrying about how or why to say something to the point that only like minded folks will interact. BC, i haven’t noticed you so much as 6th Street. Look at his very predictable reply. his own words 4 comments ago:
I wholly agree with this point
Especially re: the lack of editorial review of individual member submitted content. I think its criticism is warranted, short name calling and personal attacks, to the point of maintaining the high level of posted content that this community is built upon and has come to expect.
So what does he/she resort to…..
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs -- ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
-- Harold Thurman
the fact that you looked up my posting history is amusing
im glad to know that my previous post elicited such emotion from you that you chose to articulate yourself like a jackass.
emotion? i guess, if having fun pointing out your hypocrisy and inconsistency is an emotion..
Unlike you, this isn’t about you as a person. This is about your holier than thou treatment of some posters under the guise of community standards. Laughable.
I dont know you so I have zero emotion invested in you. You could die tonight and it would have zero impact on me personally. Wouldn’t be happy or sad because you dont exist in my world. The only reason i looked up your posting is that i wanted to see if your pulpit had a foundation. Naturally, it didn’t.
You are the one name calling and I am the emotional one…
Thanks for this classic, “articulate jackass.” Is that similar to a “witty 6th street?”
You are boring and obviously learned nothing from YJarbs post. I will now ignore you as the article suggests.
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs -- ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
-- Harold Thurman
by thanos on Mar 4, 2009 7:25 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Hi Pot Your Kettle
Maybe reread the second parting thought before accusing 6th street of learning nothing.
Thanks for proving my point, Larry Literal.
People are becoming so neurotic, one feels compelled to call one’s self out….. I understood your insult without the self critique.
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs -- ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
-- Harold Thurman
I thought I was being funny
but I guess I can’t even make fun of myself without thanos to the rescue.
THAT was funny.
and good timing. i wasn’t looking for funny…. good reminder for me….
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs -- ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
-- Harold Thurman
Apologies again
And well written post, JYarbs. I agree that there’s been some vitriol towards some of the new posters on BON, but I think we as a group are pretty defensive about keeping BON as an “intelligent” committee. If you want to spout off incoherent, thoughtless, one-line opinions, there’s a place for that—see hornfans.com.
I think we welcome dissenting opinions, despite what some posters may say in response. For recent examples, see burntorangehorn’s position on OOS recruiting, greenspointtexas’ view that Harrison Smith is the shiznit, or RMHorn’s outstanding pessimism about this year’s basketball teams. While those commenters may draw some vehement feedback, the point is that they took a position and wrote about it in a coherent manner. Further, the last (and hardest) step is to go the extra mile and back up your assertions with facts, something that has been lacking on many comments (and with good reason; finding facts and presenting them in an adequate manner is quite time-consuming). However, if you are forced into a corner, it’s best to do your research, lest you end up with an “emperor has no clothes” position that beergut constantly finds himself in.
In any case, I think BON as a community are all busy people and want to read something constructive. Put some effort into it, and ye shall be rewarded.
We can be a sarcastic bunch...
Often, people here just like to joke about silly things like grammar, spelling, and ALL CAPITAL LETTERS. But I do see how the responses to that post were a bit on the mean side.
It seems like this place has been sort of wound up ever since our BCS snub and now our basketball struggles. It will pass.
by TheElusiveShadow on Mar 4, 2009 12:50 AM CST reply actions
Well said.
Personally, I think the grammar smack is funny. Lord help you if you try to rip on a commenter’s poor grammar and spell it “grammer.”
Commenting or FanPosting in ALL CAPS is fair game as far as I’m concerned. Who could forget the ALL CAPS FANPOST? I thought it was hilarious. The poor guy tried to voice his opinion on changing the BCS system (waste of time, unfortunately it’s here to stay) and received 33 comments ripping him for posting in all caps. No one even read his post (how could you?). Hopefully he learned his lesson.
That said, things have certainly been a little tense around here. People need to lighten up.
I've been fuelin' my dreams eatin' greens and beans.
Hey, I missed you, too, lh.
Law and order went to hell while you were gone.
I wondered where you were
Here. My attempted humor, alas, fell short of yours.
by TheElusiveShadow on Mar 4, 2009 1:58 PM CST up reply actions
Dodging bullets during mardi gras and reconnecting with the real world after the Fiesta
Glad to be back gents.
proud to swim home
The internet...
serious business.
by the other Andrew on Mar 4, 2009 11:41 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
Two way street.
My job as an HR Mngr. (on the job Psychiatrist if you will) involves dealing with all manner of mental ailments and perceived injustices. I must side with PB on this topic. Should someone’s writing abilities (or lackthereof), level of intelligence, or knowledge base on a particular topic cause you such torment that you’ve no choice but to attack, embarrass, or belittle another, just walk away. Lest you be the one identified as arrogant, angry, or smarmy! In my world, arrogance is just another form of human insecurity, albeit covered with modicum of success. The fact has been, is, and will always remain that some are simply smarter than others – no more no less! Those that are less capable from a mental standpoint should be no less welcome to step up to the plate and participate in healthy discourse.
The flip-side is that those who choose to participate should make every attempt to provide something valuable to the topic. Posting a comment just to post a comment is foolish and not worthy of other BONer’s time – insulting retorts included. BONer’s deserve your best, and you owe the BON community your best. Otherwise why comment? My grandmother used to love saying that “there is nothing more ridiculous than an ignorant person with a big mouth, who thinks they are a genius”. Many times, our fellow human beings would all be better off if we were to simply let certain thoughts die a private death!
The fact is that there are
by Jabo on Mar 4, 2009 3:16 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
grammar or spelling
i love BON except the nerds that have nothing to say except to correct someone’s grammar or spelling. often when i type i slip up. we all do it.
i had plenty of english at UT and don’t need to be corrected. it is a complete waste of
good BON ideas and comments. (yes, i usually type in small-case on the internet.
i am not applying for a job!)
BTW, good sarcasm is a great judge of intelligence.
ut1ou2 for texas-ou weekend
J' disapprove!
If you take the 1st argument to it’s logical conclusion you would have the inner strength to not disapprove of any post or sets of posts. This is because one would be secure in them selves enough not to let ANY type of post to be taken personally or be disapproved of. Gandhi knew that any words or actions demonstrated the character of the actor and not those that were the targets of those words and actions. With that in mind disapproval says is more about the person that disapproves than the object of the disapproval.
You can’t realistically change some one’s behavior by disapproval, they may be stopped from expressing that disapproved behavior but it doesn’t disappear and it will just. manifest itself later. What Gandhi spoke of was disassociating action from reaction and this way the actions stand out and have to stand on there own. In this way the actor might come to the realization of the responsibility they have for their actions.
The easiest thing is to disapprove of what someone else is doing because it is so easy to blame someone else than to look at yourself and question why you disprove in the first place. Anyone being upset by the tone or tenor of certain post is no different than those they disapprove of, they are exactly the same thing.
My idea is that if allowed to write down what you want you might actually read it and realize the anger and frustration has nothing to do with anyone else, this blog or any of the Texas teams, players or coaches. They might see their own emotions and realize in the end they are self defeating for the purpose of actually communicating.
Thanks for insight on Gandhi..
but I completely disagree with you about the ability to change behavior through disapproval. It’s not really relevant to this board, but this post should outlines the general concept effectively. Basically, traits are inherent, behaviors are learned.
However, I do agree with you that posts shouldn’t be taken so personally, which is why I advocate that posters should learn to let things go.
the man, the myth, the legend.
Watch out . Those guys are out of control
Similar posts are sent it very regularly. Somebody disapproves with what another person wrote or how they wrote it, etc. (This is completely different than a disagreement.) You wrote,
“I’ve noticed a troublesome trend (which is sadly very apparent in this thread) that involves long-time posters and regulars making unnecessarily harsh criticisms on FanPosts and other comments that lack a certain level of, how should I say, ‘intellectual stimulation.’”
If there are kinds of posts that don’t meet your standards that fine, why read them? why not take your own advise and just “learn to let them go”?
Like all the other posts like this, they are contradictory. They all have the same contradiction, complaints about the complainers, disapproval of the disapproving. I don’t understand the point?
“Why can’t we just have good posts that are worth reading”? Of course what is worth reading is just a matter of opinion like what is and whats not relevant. So all kinds folks are going to write all kinds of things, no matter what, it helps to develop a filter (sometimes I enjoy reading Beergut and sometimes I’m not in the mood for aggie hijinks) In the end you can only be responsible for your self and your own shit. Worrying about more than that pretty self defeating.
My personal opinion is most times I love pissing contests, vehemence and crazy reasoning. I like this blog because it has good creative insults and put downs that the writers really put some effort into. I have no problem with any of it because can’t reach me here on my side of the monitor and when I don’t feel like it seeing it I go read the NY times.
by Xerxes on Mar 5, 2009 1:53 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Other agendas...
Pineypoint wasn’t, at first, crushed for his lazy post. This site isn’t that unforgiving. Things didn’t get ugly until Burntorangehorn decided to enter the fray, under the pretext of defending Pineypoint’s…er, points (had he actually made a case for any). Similar to Thanos above, the post was simply used as an excuse for Burnt to take a few shots at certain members for his own reasons. JYarbs, on the other hand, decided to actually post his concerns and opinions without making it personal and, hence, this dialogue (a platform which Thanos then used to take his shots at 6th street…whatever). I guess my point is that I appreciate people who don’t take themselves so seriously. We are a community, we’re going to bust each other’s chops now and then. Don’t be thin skinned, don’t preach and don’t be lazy. Do take at least a moment to read some of the great content on the site, do have respect for other members’ time and opinions, do try to have a sense of humor and do try to appreciate fully that we are all fans of the greatest University – in the greatest City – in the greatest State – in the greatest Country on the planet. Hey, I’m living in Detroit right now and it’s depressing. I need you all to help keep me sane!
by utexas87 on Mar 6, 2009 9:51 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Etc
..on the greatest Planet in the Solar System — in the greatest solar system in the Milky Way — in the greatest galaxy in the local group — in the greatest local group in the supercluster — in the greatest supercluster in the whole wide universe. Oh yes, we are so very important.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
How is this rec'd?
There is not an ounce of truth in it. Neither poster you’re accusing has a visible agenda that I can see (both seem, sincerely, to disagree with what was being written at the time they jumped in), and before burntorangehorn “entered the fray,” Pineypoint’s intellect was being compared to Billy Madison’s.
What the hell are you talking about?
by BrooklynHorn on Mar 7, 2009 12:58 AM CST up reply actions
To defend Poneypoint's Intellect
it was only the post that was being compared to Billy Madison, lets not jump to conclusions about someone’s intellect based on one fanpost.
7AM on a Saturday
…getting up, or getting home?
by BrooklynHorn on Mar 7, 2009 12:09 PM CST up reply actions
Getting up
Woke up at 5 am to prepare a speech to prospective students, but of course I had to check BON to procrastinate.
Great Point
To question a posters intelligence is presumptious and irresponsible. For the record, I am a very intelligent person (self proclaimed, I know). The question that I pose is, where do you put forth maximun intellectual thought? I didn’t believe that talking college football required research, proofreading, dictionarys, and references to great philosophers. Ooops! Nuclear physics, microbiology, recruiting, statistics, molecular engineering; Hmm, does anything seem out of place? J/J. In my humble opinion college football doesnt warrant such deep and inner thought. That being said, BON is a great site and I love UT football. I will respect the “laws” that govern this site, and I look forward to being a integral part of this community.
My belief
is that discourse can always be elevated, regardless of the arena.
While football is often viewed as a mindless form of escapism, to some it is something cultural and historic, reflective of sociological and economic trends, and adherent to the very same logic and aesthetics that might make any other facet of our world intriguing. Many people on BON feel that this site is a refuge for those who share the latter sentiment, and that there are plenty of other places for those who identify more with the former.
Personally, I prefer the higher mindset, I just don’t feel like members need to be quite so nasty about enforcing it.
sighs.....
Your entire comment has an agenda and calls out two posters.
You ask be to not be lazy. So I guess it is your acute insight that tells you that I or burnt have an agenda? You underscore the fundamental challenge that now exists here and what should be gleaned from the post. Quit inferring intent. How pretentious must one be to state as fact another’s agenda?
By the way, there’s a difference between wit, sarcasm, and poor form.
Not that it matters but i refrained from commenting from the original “pile on Piney” post. The hypocrisy compelled me to comment when the very peolpe who started the nastiness, uh clever banter, commented on this post as supportive. We even have Piney apologizing for a weak posting on a fan website. Not a rude, offensive, or attacking fan post. No, just one that didn’t meet the standards of few. How asinine is that?
The bottom line is that when people are turds to someone, that someone needs to develop thicker skin. When those same turds don’t adhere to their own standards, others need to take the high road and not comment. If someone covers a topic already posted, they are fair game for insults sarcasm since they should have known to review the national archives. As long as I take insults well or the insulting of others well, then I earn the title of not taking myself too seriously. So, my goal is to be one of the turds so that everyone else has to adjust to me…got it.
Or, I need to stop reading, thinking, commenting or replying on a fan website.
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs -- ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
-- Harold Thurman
BTW
I didnt apologize, I just said I would comply with site “standards”
This is hilarious....
to watch this spiral into what it has become.
"A lot of people look for the easy way to do anything, in swimming there is no easy way." - Eddie Reese
P.S. 45-35
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