Texas players don't pan out in the NFL?
by TexasFight83 on Apr 6, 2009 12:00 PM CDT
97 comments
I would not normally take the time to write a Fan Post, but something caught my attention today I thought I needed to share with the Burnt Orange Nation.
Another blog I follow about the Kansas City Chiefs systematically concluded that the Chiefs should not "mess with Texas" during this years draft. Apparently tempered by disappointments surrounding recent Texas acquisitions Derrick Johnson and Jamaal Charles, the article went on to say that Texas players drafted in the first round during the last 10 years do not live up to their first round billing. To quote directly from the article:
"For some reason, a good chunk of Texas players don't pan out in the NFL. Take a look at the players drafted in the first round since 1998 to get a better idea of what I'm talking about.
- DB Michael Griffin (19)
- DB Aaron Ross (20)
- QB Vince Young (3)
- DB Michael Huff (7)
- RB Cedric Benson (4)
- LB Derrick Johnson (15)
- WR Roy Williams (7)
- DT Marcus Tubbs (23)
- T Mike Williams (4)
- DB Quentin Jammer (5)
- T Leonard Davis (2)
- NT Casey Hampton (19)
- RB Ricky Williams (5)
From my perspective, there's one player (Casey Hampton) whose justified his draft position. There are a few players, like the DBs selected in the last few years and Vince Young, who could still blossom into 1st round-type talent but have yet to demonstrate that. "
This is all supposed to be evidence that Brian Orakpo will not be good in the NFL, and consequently the Chiefs should not consider drafting him. So, all this brings me to my question: Is this true, are their really no good Texas players in the NFL, or am I taking crazy pills? Maybe I'm just wearing rose colored glasses but I think some (even most) of these players did alright at the next level. This of course begs the question: Why single out Texas?... as if all draft busts come out of Austin. Anyways, What do ya'll think?
Link to the original article in context: http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2009/4/6/824387/chiefs-shouldnt-mess-with-texas-in#comments
All comments, FanPosts, and FanShots are the views of the reader-authors who create them.
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Um....
Ross, Griffin, Huff, Benson, and Williams are all providing for their teams – in some regards, key game changers, in others, they’re serviceable.
by TXinDC on Apr 6, 2009 12:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Ross, Griffin weren't judged
The thinking is that you can’t fully judge a draft class until 3 years out.
Agreed on Williams…he’s still got plenty of time to justify the 7th overall pick.
Cedric Benson is serviceable, I guess. But with the 4th overall pick wouldn’t you want a guy whose gotten more than 2,340 yards in 4 seasons?
by Joel Thorman on Apr 9, 2009 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just because a guy has a blog
Doesn’t mean he’s capable of writing something worth reading, much less worthy of a response. There are half a dozen pro bowlers on that list, two others were key contributors to super bowl teams (Tubbs, Ross). Any regression one would like to mention after a player attains that level of play doesn’t have much to do with the players college career.
This general idea was brought up before by Don Banks, and probably a few others after VY flamed out. The argument goes that players are more coddled at Texas, than say USC. A logic which clearly breaks down when comparing Mike Williams and Dwayne Jarrett to Roy Williams.
Were one to do an inclusive study of Division I teams, I suspect quickly find that 50% of their first round picks panning out would be a good ratio. But, it’s much easier to be intellectually lazy and parrot some half assed meme from ESPN. That said, I agree with the author’s core thesis. I too hope Rak doesn’t wind up in KC.
proud to swim home
by learned hand on Apr 6, 2009 12:51 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Exactly
Why do people take blogs so seriously? You know what they say about opinions …
Everyone wants to take an unsubstantiated idea and run with it or take a statistic that is probably applicable to most programs and use it to indict one specific team. The myth of Mack Brown having many #1 recruiting classes and only 1 national title and of Texas always finishing the season ranked well below where they started the season are prime examples of things that A) are categorically untrue and B) could just as easily be applied to many other programs, but no one is tripping over themselves to get to a keyboard and pound out that treatise.
It’s an agenda. That’s it. If Texas players really weren’t worth it, there wouldn’t be so many of them on NFL rosters. Nobody is holding a gun to the heads of all those GMs who draft Longhorns every spring.
by bassale47 on Apr 6, 2009 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You should read the whole entry I wrote
I’m not saying this is a reason NOT to draft Orakpo. I was just bringing it to the attention of some readers who were talking about Orakpo. Again, I’m not saying this is a reason to pass on any Texas players I just thought it was interesting to note considering they’re an elite NCAA program.
And, as far as Jamaal Charles is concerned, we love him. He was a steal in the 3rd round and we’re very, very excited about him in KC.
As far as Derrick Johnson is concerned, no one is calling him a full out bust. He’s been an average, to above average player for the Chiefs but we were hoping for more with the 15th overall pick.
by Joel Thorman on Apr 9, 2009 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I did read your entire entry before I ripped it. I read it again just now. It didn't get better.
I’m not saying this is a reason to pass on any Texas players…
The title of your entry is “Chiefs Shouldn’t Mess with Texas in NFL Draft”. Apparently you’re not given to non-sequitors because your title has something to do with the subject of your entry. In the 10 analysis free sentences you assert that “for some reason, a good chunk of Texas players don’t pan out in the NFL.” You then proceed to list only first round picks from 1998-2008 despite the generalized statement about Texas players. Then you tell us your perspective that only Casey Hampton lived up to potential, and a few others may yet do so.
You conclude with:
I’m not putting much stock into Orakpo’s potential based on a handful of other flameouts to make their way through Austin before hitting the league but it does make me wonder what’s going on down there that such a stellar college program produces an unusual amount of busts
The meaning of this sentence depends greatly on where one decides to put the emphasis. From your title, I would say your emphasis falls on skepticism of any and all UT players. From your posts above, I suppose it may not.
My larger problem was that you never backed up the second clause, “but it does make me wonder what’s going on down there that such a stellar college program produces an unusual amount of busts”. It was just a list surrounded by generalized statements with the overall assumption that because other UT players didn’t live up to your expectations, the next one wouldn’t either. And that’s probably right. Your article gives no indication of a rational basis for the relative “success” or “failure” of a draft pick, so readers have no way of gauging whether your expectations are reasonable.
All you leave your readers with is the statement that, in your opinion, an all pro nose tackle with two super bowl rings taken in the second half of the first round “justified” his position. That’s adequate if you want to drum up page views, or get some pats on the back from big 12 north fans. If you’re actually trying to write an article with substance, analyze other schools (I noted you looked at USC recently), draft slots and teams drafting.
Causality matters when you’re doing something like this. Did the player under perform because he was tremendously overrated coming out of college like Ced Benson? Was the player drafted for a position he shouldn’t be playing like Davis? Was a promising career derailed by injuries like Tubbs? Was the player a hall of fame talent with a penchant for recreational pharmacology like Williams? There’s clearly not just one reason for any perceived inadequacies. As becomes apparent, each player is an individual. Your post suggests that it will address something systemic, but leaves it to the reader to fill in the blank.
As far as Derrick Johnson goes, a quick look at other 15th overall picks shows Brandon Albert, Lawrence Timmons, Tye Hill, D.J., Michael Clayton, Jerome McDougal, Albert Hayneworth, Santana Moss, Deltha O’Neal, Anthony McFarland and Anthony Simmons have been taken at that slot in the last decade. The only world beater is Hayneworth. Maybe your expectations are skewed in relation to college hype, or what you’d like to see, but in that company Derrick Johnson looks pretty good.
I appreciate you coming over here and being cordial, and I doubt you thought your work would generate any sort of negative response elsewhere on the blogosphere. I don’t mean to be quite as sarcastic as this probably reads, but your entry was an opinion thinly veiled as analysis. I treated it as such.
proud to swim home
by learned hand on Apr 9, 2009 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Thanks for responding
Fair criticisms and duly noted. The piece stemmed from a comment thread in another post about the first round talent that comes out of top tier college programs (which is why I noted “specifically in the first round” right before the sentence you quoted above. Thought that implied better, my mistake for the confusion). There wasn’t intended to be any analysis, it was a follow up to a long comment thread we had earlier in the week.
I’ve hashed out some of my reasoning for calling a few of these players busts. I probably should have done this in the original post but, as you pointed out, I didn’t which is part of the reason it was insufficient.
Cedric Benson – Over 200 carries once, more than 5 TDs once, never topped 800 yards. After 4 years, he’s well on his way to being a bust. Is he a contributor? Sure. Was he overhyped? Probably (judging by the way you worded your question). Does that mean he’s still not a bust? No.
Roy Williams – Career averages of about 56 receptions, 800 yards and 6 TDs (largely aided by a 1,300 yd year….3 years ago). He’s still got a ways to go but are you saying that’s not largely below expectations for the 7th overall?
Marcus Tubbs – Call it injuries if you want but outta the league in three years for the 23rd overall pick is a bust.
Mike Williams – Outta the league in four years.
Quentin Jammer – Won’t call him a bust but certainly hasn’t lived up to expectations, esp for the 5th overall pick. 5th overall corner (a relatively “safe” position in the 1st round) should be making Pro Bowls.
Leonard Davis – 2nd overall for a guard? Great guard but that’s like being proud of a 1st round kicker making the Pro Bowl.
Ricky Williams – Again, whatever the excuse was for why he was only in the league for four years before getting kicked out (and never having another above average season since then) doesn’t really matter to me. You draft a guy in the top 5 you expect him to be on the field. Ricky wasn’t.
Thanks for your comments, LH, they didn’t come off as sarcastic and I can understand a lot of your points and where you’re coming from. Confirms all the good things I’ve heard about BON.
by Joel Thorman on Apr 9, 2009 7:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure what the standards are, especially coming from the Chiefs...
It interesting that guy is bagging on Texas players when the last time the Chiefs were any good it was because of a former Texas guy. For all of Larry Johnson’s video game numbers, they have become a worse team each year since Holmes went down. I haven’t followed Jamaal much with Chiefs, has he been that big of a bust in just one year?
I am sure if you looked over the past 10 years, our first round players have panned out and busted at an equal rate to other first round players. There are very few veritable superstars in the league and the Pro Bowl is generally made up of tried and true players rather than the best players in that given year and yet there are guys on their that have made it to the Pro Bowl.
Its easy to knock Vince Young, but even he made a Pro Bowl by actually leading a team to the Playoffs unlike this year’s Pro Bowl back up Jay Cutler. If Vince didn’t take his injury so hard and so publicly, it would be hard to call him a failure after the season Collins had once he took over.
by Rickyspub on Apr 6, 2009 12:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
How are they upset with JC? He was a third round pick.
by UT_BKC on Apr 6, 2009 1:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
As a Chiefs fan...
I’m not upset with JC. Some are though, claiming that he fumbles too much. And yes he was a 3rd rounder. I think he will be good for the Chiefs, especially because LJ sucks.
OU SUCKS!!!!!!
by TexasFight83 on Apr 6, 2009 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, for a rookie 3rd rounder, I think he did fine. As ‘weak’ as this years RB class is, I think he could have made more money by staying a year longer. To this list…
Bases on the body of work today, here’s who I’d say was worth it:
DB Michael Griffin (19) – yes
DB Aaron Ross (20) – yes
QB Vince Young (3) – no *
DB Michael Huff (7) – maybe
RB Cedric Benson (4) – no
LB Derrick Johnson (15) – no (sadly, he was one of my favorites)
WR Roy Williams (7) – yes
DT Marcus Tubbs (23) – no
T Mike Williams (4) – no
DB Quentin Jammer (5) – yes
T Leonard Davis (2) – not sure, i haven’t seen him enough to say yay or nay
NT Casey Hampton (19) – no
RB Ricky Williams (5) – no
4 for 13 (minus davis). Really, I think it’s too early to count VY, so 4 for 12. And even then, I STILL think it’s too early to look at a lot of these players. Ricky did well this past year, and he definitely has the physical abilities to redeem himself. Benson played well over his last 4 or 5 games. I think it’d be better to look at players who have at least 5 years of playing time (prefer 7) before making these calls.
I hope Rak drops to 15 (I know he won’t :( )
by UT_BKC on Apr 6, 2009 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, no on Hampton!
I thought Casey was doing pretty well for Pittsburgh. Hasn’t he made 2 pro bowls in the past 3 years?
Leonard Davis was a bust as a tackle but is a two-time pro bowler at guard…not worth the 2nd overall pick or the tackle money the Cowboys are paying him to play guard, but he is contributing at a pretty high level.
by Rickyspub on Apr 6, 2009 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hampton was named to their "all-time team"...
Steelers love Hampton! Here is the link to the article which lists him as the all-time defensive tackle for the Steelers
http://www.steelers.com/article/83505/
by BigDSteve on Apr 6, 2009 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My bad. Must be getting him confused… So that makes 5 / 12.
That seems pretty good to me when you consider how hit or miss things are.
by UT_BKC on Apr 6, 2009 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Benson
looked good at the end of last year, and they just signed him for 2 more years. He could blossom with Carson Palmer.
Leonard Davis made the Pro Bowl the last two years.
Casey Hampton is a beast and also a pro bowler.
Ricky Williams is great..just stupid.
DJ isn’t bad, he’s just on a horrible team.
by Longhorns84 on Apr 6, 2009 8:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and davis was 1st team all pro in 2007
Ian Johnson gets on one knee.
Sam Bradford gets on both.
by acho81 on Apr 8, 2009 7:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
fumbles too much? not Jamaal Charles!
The Chiefs are idiots if they are suprised that he fumbles a lot. He did the whole time he was at UT.
by Longhorns84 on Apr 6, 2009 8:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
???
Upset with JC? The point of it was just 1st round picks. I didn’t claim all Texas players don’t pan out (because a lot do), I was just noting that they didn’t have a lot of 1st rounders that justified their draft position (like say Tennessee has who isn’t a program like Texas).
I don’t think anyone talked about Charles in this.
by Joel Thorman on Apr 9, 2009 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tennessee has a good draft record right around the time they were a top team, now not so much...
From 1998-2008 the two UTs both had 13 players drafted in the 1st round. Both have had 6 of those players earn a Pro Bowl. A big difference is that 9 of Tennessee’s first rounders in this period were from 1998-2002. They only have 4 1st round since then, none of whom have made their mark as a Pro Bowler. Texas has the opposite profile. Eight of their 13 were drafted after 2002. Roy Williams, VY and Mike Griffin have made the Pro Bowl and we’ll see how their fortunes (and that of guys with potential like Aaron Ross and those who haven’t thus far done well like Benson and Huff) go over the next 5 or 6 years.
by Rickyspub on Apr 9, 2009 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good Points
Didn’t really pick up on that. Most of Tenn’s class stemmed from the ’98 NC win.
by Joel Thorman on Apr 9, 2009 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
im pretty sure
most if not everyone but marcus tubbs and cedric have made the pro bowl at least once
Hotty Toddy and Hook'em Horns.
by Olemissreb451 on Apr 6, 2009 1:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Opinion masquerading as analysis
--PB--
by Peter Bean on Apr 6, 2009 1:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
true...
is anyone sure this wasn’t an article posted to the New York Times sports column covering the Big 12 and written by JMac’s best friend? Could have been control c’d. Just the supreme journalistic abilities Mr. ArrowHead demonstrates seems vaguely familiar…
by divinebovine on Apr 6, 2009 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the list speaks for it self
Plus Charles was a rookie, I thought he played pretty good.
I think the Chiefs have bigger problems then worrying about drafting players from Texas
Blazz
by blazzinken on Apr 6, 2009 1:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think the Chiefs have bigger problems then worrying about drafting players from Texas
Isn’t that the truth, that’s why the blog post irked me.. even though I’m a diehard Chiefs fan. Blaming a single college as essentially the reason why your Pro team sucks when I happen to go to that college, pisses me off.
OU SUCKS!!!!!!
by TexasFight83 on Apr 6, 2009 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
You should re-read it. It had nothing to do with blaming the Chiefs’ woes on Texas. In fact, it really wasn’t about the Chiefs at all.
by Joel Thorman on Apr 9, 2009 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only reason Ricky Williams didn't meet expectations
Was because he was crazy. He’s come back to be a good back again, but he threw away a his Hall of Fame potential. It had nothing to do with his ability. He was just… diferent.
There are a lot of good players on that list, and a lot of players who are still young. How bizarre to argue that they aren’t worth it.
by TheElusiveShadow on Apr 6, 2009 2:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
take it from a saints fan (albeit a biased Texas fan as well)
He was worth the 5th pick. The major problem with him (if you put aside his dancing with mary jane) was that dumb ass Ditka announced that he would trade his whole draft for him, thus making it manifest destiny that the Saints did. If he would have been a normal ol’ 5th pick, he woudn’t get so much criticism. He was plagued by injuries in New Orleans but was not a bust. He had a couple of great seasons in Miami before the drug policy came a calling.
by SaintBevo on Apr 6, 2009 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’ll have to excuse my fellow Chiefs fans. Many are idiots. I mean, gosh, maybe KC ought to not consider anyone from USC because of Shaun Cody, Chris Claiborne, Reggie Bush, Matt Leinart, Mike Williams….
And of no Florida players. Wouldn’t want a repeat of Jacquez Green, Bert Emanuel, Reche Caldwell, Jabar Gaffney, Danny Wuerfell…
And Florida State? Really, who wants the next Jamal Reynolds, Peter Warrick, Andre Wadsworth…
by burntorangehorn on Apr 6, 2009 2:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Went back to 2000 for OU and USC
Here are USCs first rounders since 2000:
R. Jay Soward (29)
Carson Palmer (1)
Troy Polamalu (16)
Kenechi Udeze (20)
Mike Williams (10)
Mike Patterson (31)
Reggie Bush (2)
Matt Leinart (10)
Sedrick Ellis (7)
Keith Rivers (9)
Sam Baker (21)
Lawrence Jackson (28)
Granted USCs first rounders are hard to judge since half of them came in the past three years, but Troy Polamalu and Carson Palmer are the only real standouts here.
And here are OUs:
Stockar McDougle (20)
Roy Williams (8)
Andre Woolfolk (28)
Tommie Harris (14)
Jammal Brown (13)
Mark Clayton (22)
Davin Joseph (23)
Adrian Peterson (7)
If you consider Roy Williams to be good then OU is hitting a higher percentage of ‘hits’ than we do considering their overall smaller number of players.
This was a quick hit looking on wikipedia so I could have missed some names.
by Rickyspub on Apr 6, 2009 2:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
To make it an apples to apples comparison I should have gone back to '98
So add Chris Claiborne (9) to USCs sorry record of 1st round draft picks.
This exercise just showed me how ridiculous the expectations are for 1st round draft picks and just how few of them even become contributors much less high quality players.
by Rickyspub on Apr 6, 2009 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
This is why I gave no credibility to the talking heads who were asking if the Bears gave up too much for Cutler. Really??? The 18th pick this year, and [something like] the 25th pick next year? Considering 1st round picks seem to slip into obscurity as often (or more) as they embark on productive careers, I’d say the Broncos gave Cutler away for free, and the Bears gave up nothing.
by BrooklynHorn on Apr 6, 2009 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Problem
I think the problem lies in the lack of impact players.
Both USC and OU have a success story at an impact offensive position (QB, RB, WR) in Palmer and Peterson. They both also have a high-profile defensive impact player in Polamalu and Roy Williams (I know, Roy Williams sucks, but he was a media darling). Texas has had neither during this time period, and that hurts in perception.
by jc25 on Apr 6, 2009 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree...
I guess I would replace bad Roy W. with Tommie Harris, but you are correct about having impact position players. In fact, I don’t think Carson Palmer has been all that great, but any one who can hold a starting QB position for multiple seasons is likely to get more attention than a starting guard or safety.
Had Vince not lost his starting job last year and lead the Titans to the playoffs I think we would look a lot better. On the flip side, its been the two head case RBs and VY’s drama that have really damaged our reputation more than Mike Williams or Michael Huff being busts.
by Rickyspub on Apr 6, 2009 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
M Griffin
will be WAAAAY better than Williams. Texas has a lot of OL and DL in the NFL.
by Longhorns84 on Apr 7, 2009 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ou's Roy Williams is HORRIBLE
he couldn’t cover a bed.
by Longhorns84 on Apr 6, 2009 8:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thought it'd be interesting to do a draft position comparison
2007 comparators to Griffin and Ross are Darelle Revis (NYJ), Leon Hall (Cin), Reggie Nelson (Jac), and Brandon Merriweather (NE). All are starters. Of the list, Revis probably ranks the best (which makes sense, as he was the highest drafted), but none of them have been too shabby. Doubtful that Tennessee and New York are unhappy with their picks. Winner, winner, chicken dinner.
2006 comparators to Vince Young are Matt Leinart (Ari) and Jay Cutler (Den). Young’s got a step on Leinart, but is behind Cutler (although all three are probably even on the immature, off the field transgressions). You gotta think if Tennessee had a second shot, they’d like this one back. Whatever.
2006 comparator to Michael Huff is Donte Whitner (Buf). Whitner was a considered a reach when he was drafted, but has performed adequately, if not spectacularly. Huff was benched, partially due to the considerable vortex of suck coming from Oakland. I’d imagine Oakland would like a redo as well, but doubt they’d stick with the safety position and select Whitner instead.
2005 comparators to Benson are Ronnie Brown (Mia) and Carnell Williams (TB). Brown’s obviously had the best career of the three but isn’t anything to write home about. Williams has been slowed by injuries. Again, no way the Browns retake Benson, and probably look elsewhere for help.
2005 comparators to Derrick Johnson include DeMarcus Ware (Dal), Shawne Merriman (SD), and David Pollack (Cin). Obviously, one would rather have Ware and Merriman rather than Johnson, but both were gone by the time KC picked. Pollack is done due to injuries. Not a terrible pick by the Chiefs. I remember being ticked off at the Texans for trading down and not selecting DJ. They got an infinitely worse Johnson in Travis. Serves them right.
2004 comparators to Roy Williams include Larry Fitzgerald (Ari), Reggie Williams (Jac), Lee Evans (Buf), and Michael Clayton (TB). Fitzgerald’s the real prize, but again, he was gone before the Lions could select. Williams probably ranks second on the list, and would probably still be a borderline Pro Bowl Lion if not for Matt Millen’s treehouse of horrors. Lions fans are the real losers in this one. Next year is a real make or break year for Roy.
2004 comparators to Marcus Tubbs are Vince Wilfork (NE) and Junior Siavii (KC). Wilfork rules but was drafted ahead of Tubbs. Siavii is a nobody. Not really much to say about this one.
2002 comparators to Mike Williams include Bryant McKinnie (Min) and Levi Jones (Cin). Let’s say Buffalo would like to have this one back.
2002 comparators to Quentin Jammer are Roy Williams (Dal), Phil Buchanon (Oak), and Ed Reed (Bal). Roy Williams is absolute crap in a bucket and I refuse to acknowledge that Jammer is worse, Pro Bowls or no Pro Bowls. Buchanon couldn’t hang on to the Texans, but is somehow relevant again. Whiffing on Ed Reed hurts. I realize, CB to S isn’t exactly apples to apples, but Jammer has been serviceable, not spectacular like a 5th picks hould be.
2001 comparators to Leonard Davis are Kenyatta Walker (TB) Steve Hutchinson (Sea) and Jeff Backus (Det). I know Davis revived his career as a guard for Dallas, but ouch. I’m sure the Cardinals and Bucs wanted this one back.
2001 comparators to Casey Hampton include Damione Lewis (STL), Marcus Stroud (Jac), and Ryan Pickett (STL). Looks like Pittsburgh came out winners on this one.
2000 comparator to Ricky Williams is the Edge (Ind). Mike Ditka would obviously want to apply revisionist history here, but Williams was great until he became a headcase.
What does the list tell us? Relative to their draft position and prospect counterparts, the only ones I would classify as a true “bust” is Mike Williams. Michael Huff is veering dangerously close to that. Quentin Jammer counts as well if you put him up against Ed Reed. Leonard Davis is borderline as well.
More troublesome, the only player to outperform is Casey Hampton. Ross and Griffin might as well, but they have heady competition. I’d love to see the breakdown against outperformers and underperformers to first round status. A more comprehensive comparison to other major schools would be helpful as well (unresearched vote for the winner would probably be Miami). In any case, this was probably just a waste of 20 minutes of my time.
by jc25 on Apr 6, 2009 3:00 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
Two things become clear from your list
By definition, it is almost impossible for first round picks to outperform expectations – essentially they have to become borderline hall of famers like Hampton. (That’s not saying he’ll make it, but him and Williams from the Chargers will probably be the nose tackles from this era in the hunt). Conversely, a solid, reliable contributor to a good team like Jammer is considered a disappointment.
Second, a player drafted by a terrible franchise is more likely to appear to be a bust than a star. You take a dysfunctional franchise like Oakland, Arizona (Historically) or KC and players will not have the potential to make the impact they otherwise would. There’s a causality problem there, have UT players struggled because no players excel in those vortices of suck, or for other reasons?
It’s amusing to me that this post comes on the basis of Derrick Johnson as a linebacker, and the same author wrote a post lamenting the embarrassing play of the Chiefs D-line last week saying there is no NFL ready tackle on their roster. So the author thinks Glenn Dorsey is already a bust, and doesn’t understand the linkage between D-Line play and LB success. Wow. Too bad Big Roy can’t give a tutorial to all the SBN folks.
I blame playstation.
proud to swim home
by learned hand on Apr 6, 2009 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Likely correct
Although the analysis is skewed since it’s first round draft picks. The rationale is if you’re a top 10 draft pick, you better damn well perform like a borderline hall of famer, since that’s the type of money you’re getting paid. If you’re drafted anywhere in the first round, the expectation is likely solid starter, occasional pro bowler (with a sliding scale depending on the number you’re picked). I don’t think that’s unreasonable; it’s a lot like Texas/OU recruiting vs. the rest of the Big XII. Obviously, the other schools will have more Chase Daniel/Todd Reesing success stories because A) they tend to recruit from a lower star base, and B) the level of competition is against others of similar ilk. Conversely, you’ll see bigger busts from a Texas/OU level since many of the 2 deep will have been 4 and 5 stars coming out of high school. The most obvious example of this is Vince Young; had he brought anything less than a national championship to Texas, he would’ve been considered a disappointment. On the flip side, a guy like Todd Reesing can take his team to an unexpected BCS bowl and be hailed as a savior.
That’s not to say that you won’t see “outperformers” in the first round. Like I mentioned, Ed Reed is a pretty clear example of when that happens. The two guys taken after him, Charles Grant and Lito Sheppard, were no slouches either. In Hampton’s year, Reggie Wayne was taken at 30, an absolute steal. However, for sheer volume of “outperfomers,” you’ll definitely find more in the middle and later rounds. There you’ll find Texas players like Justin Blalock, Bo Scaife, and Nathan Vasher and even undrafteds like Lyle Sendlein and Ahmard Hall that outperformed expectations. On the flip side, there’s your David Thomases and Rod Babers as well.
by jc25 on Apr 6, 2009 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, I didn't see any year where more than half the players made a pro bowl...
Wiki’s draft synopses include a note which players became pro bowlers and I don’t think any year between 1998 and 2008 had half of the players end up in a pro bowl at some point during their career.
You maybe correct in what the expectations are, but I doubt even the NFL brass really think they getting a borderline hall-of-famer when they make a top ten pick. They are just hoping the guy is serviceable enough to keep them from making another top 10 pick a few years later!
by Rickyspub on Apr 6, 2009 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dorsey a bust?
Um, no. The article was about whether Dorsey (or anyone on the roster) can be a 3-4 NT because when Dorsey was drafted we were running a 4-3.
by Joel Thorman on Apr 9, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In my search for USC and OU first rounders....
Miami definitely was the winner and it was evident without even having to count. Miami in the late 90s up through about 2005 put out a ton of quality first round talent. But even they had a few busts.
Ohio State didn’t have a lot of top notch guys, Florida didn’t either as far as schools having multiple players chosen.
If you want to play the stats and you need a sure fire school that will deliver Pro Bowl, rookie talent you need look no further than East Carolina!
by Rickyspub on Apr 6, 2009 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent Point Rec'd
Never thought of it that way.
by Joel Thorman on Apr 9, 2009 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What is the deal with dissing VY?
He has made 2 pro bowls in 3 seasons. Now he has one off year. He immediately “sucks”.
Ian Johnson gets on one knee.
Sam Bradford gets on both.
by acho81 on Apr 6, 2009 4:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
2 Pro bowls?
It was ONE pro bowl, and he made it because Rivers was injured.
Have you been living under a rock the last two years?
by goingforthecorner on Apr 6, 2009 9:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right, he only made the Pro Bowl once in the two seasons he wasn’t out with injury, and made the playoffs both seasons. acho81 stands corrected.
by burntorangehorn on Apr 6, 2009 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He did win the NFL Rookie of the Year Award
And he did play in a Pro Bowl. He’s had some issues, but it’s too early to condemn his career.
by the1austin on Apr 6, 2009 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah it's too early I guess
but if I’m a Tennessee native and a true Titans fan, I’m probably kicking myself we didn’t draft Jay Cutler instead.
by goingforthecorner on Apr 6, 2009 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't know...
that guy doesn’t have the “it” factor, and I don’t know if he’s ever been a winner at any level (of the top of my head). Vince, once things slow down for him, will be able to master the game just like he always has.
by vy til i die on Apr 6, 2009 10:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cutler is a number collector not a winner...
You have to remember Cutler was picked by a Broncos team that had gone to the playoffs the year before (I think it was a streak of several seasons). The Broncos were supposed to pick later in the draft but got the earlier pick from the Rams.
That season Plummer had the team on the verge of the playoffs before he had few lackluster games, so they brought in Cutler. All Cutler had to do was win 3 of 5 games and the Broncos would have made the playoffs. Just like at Vanderbilt all Cutler had to do was beat a mediocre team (MTSU in college and the 49ers in the pros) to make the post season and he choked both times. He then couldn’t do anything with a similarly talented team the next year missing the playoffs and last year, while the team had its issues, he couldn’t even take a referee-gifted two win bonus and get to the playoffs in what was one of the worst divisions in the history of the NFL!
Cutler won’t win anywhere, so I think while the picks Denver got have only potential value they have likely dodged a bullet by getting rid of him.
VY really hurt himself with similar immaturity and while he is proven winner his selfish display after his injury puts his stock even lower. The bad attitude while on the bench was bad enough, but what head coach wants to put his job on the line to a guy that talks about killing himself after suffering a relatively minor injury?
by Rickyspub on Apr 7, 2009 8:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a Titans fan living in Nashville,
I can tell you that no one here would trade Mike Griffin for anything short of Ed Reed. He is a flat out playmaker, and is beloved by the fans here. Also a helluva nice guy, sat next to him on a plane back to Austin after their playoff loss to San Diego his rookie year. Quiet, nice kid, with a watch the size of my head.
by ctex80 on Apr 6, 2009 4:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
that must have been cool
Ian Johnson gets on one knee.
Sam Bradford gets on both.
by acho81 on Apr 8, 2009 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't think of an o-lineman that I'd rather have than Leonard Davis....
That guy’s a beast and has played great for the Cowboys.
by SneezyBeltran on Apr 6, 2009 5:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Current Vikings
I know that you’re basically looking at the first rounders, but if you look deeper into the draft, the players that are picked lower usually hold their own, if not more. The Vikings have gotten a couple of gems in both Brian Robison and Cedric Griffin starting to make noise late last season and into their playoff game. These are guys that aren’t flashing in December’s pan, but have started the progression that was expected and will be major factors on the Viking defense. And with the Minnesota offense steered by Brad Childress and T-Jack at QB, the defense has to be exceptional.
by Veeks! on Apr 6, 2009 8:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
According to the poll, half of people think that drafting in the first round is a wash...
And I think this is clearly the case. There are a lot of busts. This happens when a player does not make the team or starts in less than 16 games. But how can every player drafted in the first round make the pro bowl. This is obviously not going to happen. So, is a serviceable veteran that contributes to his team with average or even above average stats for about a decade a bust? I cant see how this could be the case. I agree that a lot of this has to do with the team a player goes to. David Carr could not be as bad as he ended up being. The Texans had a terrible line and he got beat up. If Texas coddles its players and VY was supposed to suck as soon as he got into the NFL, why did he win Rookie of the year? DJ has been somewhat of a disappointment in KC, but he has had a terrible supporting cast and as many of the same fans that criticize Texas have pointed out, he has been poorly coached as well. Each situation is different. As I think all the commentors have shown with their insightful analysis, blaming the school for a players failure or success is really shortsighted and frankly intellectually lazy.
OU SUCKS!!!!!!
by TexasFight83 on Apr 6, 2009 9:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
what about..
L. Senderlein (sp?), J. Blaylock, and D. Dockery? not 1st rounders, but all starters in the NFL.
by Longhorns84 on Apr 7, 2009 9:11 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It must be noted, the blog in question did acknowledge
in a follow up article that USC has the same problems. I still think it is hard to make predictions about such things. You can not say that Sanchez will bust because of Lienart or that he will be incredible because of Palmer. He is a unique case. So is Rak. To their credit, they did back off their position that Texas is the only school to avoid in the draft.
OU SUCKS!!!!!!
by TexasFight83 on Apr 7, 2009 10:10 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
So what happened with Derrick Johnson?
I thought he’d be a great pro.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
by Caradoc on Apr 7, 2009 10:49 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
True, but he has also been pretty mediocre...
He has averaged 95 tackles a season and has only played two full seasons in his four years in the league. 95 tackles in a year only makes you a top 50 linebacker. To narrow it a little further just to OLBs, in his two full seasons he was 7th in tackles his rookie year and 17th in 2007. The guys in front of him came from a mix of crappy and good teams, so overall team quality doesn’t seem to impact individual tackle stats that much though I bet the scheme matters a lot.
Overall KC’s defense has been middle-to-lower end of the pack in his four years (range of 13th to 28th) and yet his numbers have been consistent during his four years.
The interesting thing to look at would be how he compares over those 4 years to other linebackers and their positions in the draft. It wouldn’t surprise me to see that 1st rounders don’t dominate the list. Likely there might be more total first rounders than from any other round, but the numbers would be close and would drop as you go deeper in the draft (i.e. several more first and second rounders than third and fourth, etc.).
by Rickyspub on Apr 7, 2009 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not just that he’s with a bad team or a bad defense. It’s that he’s had a revolving door of defensive schemes, with Greg Robinson and then Gunther Cunningham, plus several linebacker coaches and a lot of strife between those guys and Herm Edwards. The team itself has been without any sort of direction or purpose since Schottenheimer left. I guarantee DJ would’ve been a top linebacker if he were playing in a Schottenheimer defense. As it is, he has the chance again, although I can’t say I’m a huge fan of Pendergast.
DJ did play some awesome football in 2007. I would venture to say that he was about on par with some guys who went to the pro bowl that season.
by burntorangehorn on Apr 7, 2009 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point...I forgot about the D coordinator turmoil KC has had...
His best season was his rookie year, so perhaps he would have grown as a player had Schottenheimer stayed. I would like to see how he ranks against his peers over his four seasons. Since it is likely the top of list doesn’t have the same guys each and every year, it would be interesting to note whether the top of the list guys benefit from strong teammates, good schemes, or just plain continuity in coaching. The talent level is likely going to be pretty close across the board.
by Rickyspub on Apr 7, 2009 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Schottenheimer wasn’t there during any point in DJ’s career; he was in San Diego by that point. You’re thinking Vermeil, I guess. Schottenheimer last coached for the Chiefs back in, oh, about ’98 or so.
I think DJ’s best season was 2007, not his rookie year (2005). He was great in basically every aspect of the game, and made fewer “rookie mistakes” than he did as, well, a rookie.
by burntorangehorn on Apr 7, 2009 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't follow in the NFL that closely...
I was just looking at his career stats and KC’s overall defense rankings. His 2005 and 2007 seasons are pretty close stats wise (1 more tackle in ‘05; 2 more sacks and 2 ints in ’07) but he was in the top ten in tackles amongst OLBs in ’05 but only 17th in ’07, so that is why I said his rookie year was better though KC’s overall defense was better in ’07 (13th) than in ’05 (25th).
I know these rankings and the stats recorded are bit ephemeral, but if you compare his number of tackles each year to the top guys he lags way behind. Every year the top ten in tackles all had over 120 tackles, so it isn’t like he was just outside the top tacklers by a small margin. I’ll grant you OLBs aren’t as likely to throw up as many tackles as MLB, but they generally rack up a lot of sacks and in DJ’s best season he only had 4 while the top ten OLBs were all racking up 8+ sacks a year.
I am sure this is probably where scheme becomes important, but at that point the question becomes did KC waste a first round pick on an OLB when their defensive scheme doesn’t need an elite guy to man the post.
by Rickyspub on Apr 7, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If by “defensive scheme” you mean fall down and let opposing running backs walk all over them, then sure, their defensive scheme doesn’t need an elite guy. In all seriousness, though, KC’s coaching has just been horrible the past few years. Very few early picks have panned out for KC in all those years.
Of all the defensive players KC has drafted in the first three rounds in the past ten years, only three have justified or come close to justifying their draft picks:
Greg Wesley – 3rd rd. safety out of Ark-Pine Bluff in 2000
Kawika Mitchell – 2nd rd. mike backer out of USF in 2003
Derrick Johnson – 1st rd. linebacker (#15 overall) in 2005.
Seriously, that’s it. Prior to those guys, you would actually have to go back to the Schottenheimer era, when they actually had an amazing draft:
(round/overall#/name/pos/school)
1 28 Jerome Woods DB Memphis
2 58 Reggie Tongue DB Oregon State
3 68 John Browning DT West Virginia
4 98 Donnie Edwards LB UCLA
5 135 Joe Horn WR Itawamba CC MS
Now THAT is how a team should draft. Woods and Tongue were awesome in KC before Tongue left for Seattle, Browning was a solid starter and backup who spent his entire career with KC, Edwards is a multi-year pro bowler, and Horn has been, well, Joe Horn.
If my fellow Chiefs fans want to complain about UT prospects not panning out, maybe they’d like to examine KC’s overall track record and just consider avoiding first-day defensive players entirely.
by burntorangehorn on Apr 7, 2009 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that's the point of all this...
Looking just at first rounders and then expecting them all to turn in to future hall-of-famers, much less a one-time pro-bowler, is asking too much. Especially when you have to consider the overall team and its coaching it is hard to figure out just where the ‘bust’ actually occurred.
DJ is obviously a talented guy. He is a four year starter for an NFL team. Have other guys been better? Definitely yes. Is it all DJ’s fault? Definitely not. The blogger who knocked him is obviously choosing to blame DJ and his alma mater for his team’s deficiencies rather than looking at the coaching or even the players around him.
I am not knocking DJ. I am merely saying his stats show him to be an average to above-average starting linebacker. Is that good enough for a guy picked 15th in the draft? Heck if I know, but it wouldn’t surprise me if he were about average in that regard as well!
by Rickyspub on Apr 7, 2009 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
more SOLID NFL Longhorns:
A. Hall, Bo Scaife, B. Robison.
The title of the entry was players that don’t pan out in the NFL….not 1st rounders that don’t pan out. I think if a player has a long NFL career, its a solid player. A lot of the players listed on the entry are still very early in their careers. He also left off a TON of players that are in the NFL having good careers, but didn’t get drafted in the 1st round.
by Longhorns84 on Apr 7, 2009 11:20 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think both fans and the medai
Are way too quick to place all blame on alleged “busts” solely on the players. I think it is entirely possible that a team made the correct choice on draft day but failed to give help that player needed to develop and reach his potential. David Carr, for all we know, may have been better if he didn’t get ruined and destroyed in a crappy Houston team. Even Titans fans who are still mad at Vince acknowledge that Norm Chow did not help in Vince’s development. I’m not saying Carr would have been a superstar (I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t have), but while Carr certainly deserves a lot of blame, you can’t fault him for all the beatings he took in Houston. Other examples can be given.
I believe every player should obviously hold most of the responsibility over their careers, but coaching and development matter a lot. It is often said that perennialy good teams like the Colts and Pats simply draft really well. I think part of it is fulfilled by the franchise itself; they draft players they think they can develop and then they develop them in their system very well. It is possibile for teams to do the former well and be crappy at the latter, and while it’s convenient to dump all blame on those “bust” players, it probably does not tell the whole story. It seems like Kansas City’s struggles have a lot to do with their own instability compared to other teams than simply making bad picks.
Furthermore, there are plenty of good Texas NFL players, and some of them have not worked out. That’s not very different from any school.
by TheElusiveShadow on Apr 7, 2009 3:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think the good Roy Williams is a prime example...
How good would he have been if he had been drafted by a better team? But for as bad as the Lions are he still didn’t turn out as bad as some of their other first round picks who literally busted in that horrible environment. Sadly, even Williams got tainted by being drafted a Lion both in terms of his own level of effort and the fact that he now has to reinvent himself in hopes of proving his future value.
by Rickyspub on Apr 7, 2009 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am not saying Williams is a bust...
I should have stated that up front. The guy could have been an every year Pro Bowler if he had just caught on with another team, even another crappy one like the Bengals. Hopefully Roy will now fully realize the career he could of had in his new home, Dallas.
by Rickyspub on Apr 7, 2009 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jamaal charles was a bust...
jamaal charles was definitly sufficient enough for KC he was not their problem this year, it was thigpen, he sucked
by Frazier90 on Apr 7, 2009 4:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t think Thigpen was all that bad. He performed admirably, considering the circumstances.
by burntorangehorn on Apr 7, 2009 7:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bad Statistics
It’s really hard to tell from just a sampling of results one way or the other on this question. It would help to have a chart of the average career length based on draft position, then average Texas player’s draft position, the average Texas player’s career length, and then compare. It’s more of a challenge to judge a player’s “success” other than career length, unless a system is put together to compare relative worth between different positions, results, etc.
It is worth noting that since Limas didn’t catch a TD pass in the SB, the record still holds that no Horn has scored in that game.
by Tackchevy on Apr 8, 2009 9:31 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Go for it!
I am sure NFL teams have compiled all sorts of statistics, but feel free to give it a go. I would like to see the results!
That said, your plan doesn’t control for ‘intangibles’ like being drafted by a team in turmoil. For every problem athlete that succeeds because they dropped down and were picked by a better team, there are dozens who go early and get picked by teams like the Lions and Bengals and Cardinals and burn out quickly because the team’s whole system is corrupt.
Then there are the good guys who get drafted early and burn out on a crappy team with no coaching, while a less talented guy gets picked later by a successful team and is lauded not only as a superlative player, but the team that drafted them later gets accolades for being so savvy.
I think the real successes are the guys who make it and excel while toiling for years on a crappy team. That probably says more than a guy who succeeds by being drafted later and starting for the Patriots.
by Rickyspub on Apr 8, 2009 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I feel like the KC fans....
Have completely forgotten that 1) he’s only going into his second year and 2) he was a qualifier for the Olympics track events. Idiots. You’d write someone off who’s got that kind of speed?
by TXinDC on Apr 8, 2009 10:02 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I hadn’t read anything about the Olympic qual, unless you meant from when he was a freshman in college. Where did you read that?
by burntorangehorn on Apr 8, 2009 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love Charles
The guy is going to be an amazing player for the Chiefs. What I would give to have Orakpo on our defense as well!!!!
by Mostate44 on Apr 8, 2009 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kansas City and Texas Fan
I am new to burnt orange nation and I check out arrow head pride’s blog because I am from KC, am a KC sports fan, but a die hard Texas Longhorn fan. The arrowhead pride guys also posted a post about USC players being busts in the NFL. Personally I don’t know of a better school to produce NFL talent, maybe not Hall of Famers but yes some HOF, then the University of Texas. HOOK EM.
by Mostate44 on Apr 8, 2009 2:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I’ve seen a few people claim that Miami is the center of the talent-producing universe. I’m inclined to disagree.
by burntorangehorn on Apr 8, 2009 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When I was looking up OU and USC first rounders from '98 to '08...
Actually Miami was the only team that stood out to me as I was searching for OU and USC guys. In the first half of the ten years I searched they had more guys drafted in the first round that made a Pro Bowl than guys that didn’t and we are talking about at least 10 guys, probably more. I didn’t do a tally of them, but maybe I will…
Now I know the Pro Bowl isn’t the best metric of success, but I am not an NFL historian so it at least functions as a good starting point.
by Rickyspub on Apr 8, 2009 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I had to stop at 2005...
Here are Miami’s first round picks from ’98 to ’05. PB means they have made a Pro Bowl during their career.
Duane Starks (10)
Edgerrin James (4)-PB
Bubba Franks (14)-PB
Dan Morgan (11)-PB
Damione Lewis (12)
Santana Moss (16)-PB
Reggie Wayne (30)-PB
Bryant McKinnie (7)
Jeremy Shockey (14)-PB
Phillip Buchanon (17)
Ed Reed (24)-PB
Mike Rumph (27)
Andre Johnson (3)-PB
Willis McGahee (23)-PB
William Joseph (25)
Shawn Taylor (5)-PB
Kellen Winslow III (6)-PB
Johnathan Vilma (12)-PB
DJ Williams (17)
Vernon Carey (19)
Vince Wilfolk (21)-PB
Antrel Rolle (8)
13 out of 22 is pretty sick! I’ll do the remaining 3 years, but I think they picks decline in number after this and the number of Pro Bowlers overall really drops since few of the guys after ’04 have played long enough to get voted in.
I was collecting info on a few other teams as well and Tennessee and Ohio State had good numbers of Pro Bowlers to overall picks while Florida and Florida State didn’t.
Not a scientific study, but interesting none-the-less.
by Rickyspub on Apr 8, 2009 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some of that’s pretty bad. No way Franks or Buchanon should’ve made the Pro Bowl in ANY season.
by burntorangehorn on Apr 8, 2009 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said Pro Bowls aren't a perfect metric....
But if you look at that list and then look at ours and USC’s (which are probably the next two closest in terms of sheer numbers), you can’t tell me (after taking off our rose-colored glasses) that we are even in a league with that sort of overall quality output.
Bubba Franks must have made the Pro Bowl in 2002 when he lead the NFC in TDs by a TE and was second to Shockey in receptions by a TE. Otherwise he has been at best mediocre.
by Rickyspub on Apr 9, 2009 8:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So Miami has had 27 players drafted in the 1st round from '98 to '08!
Ohio State was second with 17
Florida State was third with 15
Texas, USC, and Tennesee tied with 13
Florida had 12, LSU and Georga 10, Penn State and Michigan 9, OU, Wisconsin and Auburn 8
This may not be an entirely accurate picture. Teams like Clemson had a lot of single 1st rounders and I might have missed some that could have given them much more than 8. And teams that were once strong like Syracuse and North Carolina had a lot guys early on but nothing later. Nebraska had only 4 1st rounders over the last decade!
Miami had over half (14) of their guys make at least one Pro Bowl! I know it isn’t a great stat, but as a comparison tool it has some merit. Texas and Tennessee 6, OU and Ohio State 5, Michigan 4, Florida, Georgia and FSU 3. USC and the others had 2 each.
by Rickyspub on Apr 9, 2009 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Earl Campbell
I’d say he did pretty well
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
by Caradoc on Apr 8, 2009 6:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
How many players in the NFL are game changers?
There are 2 guys on that list that do not start for a team in the NFL. The guy in Kansas City is an idiot. What did he think he was getting? D Ware? D.J. wasnt that type of player in college. What makes you think that he would be that type of player in the NFL. Remember that guy is a writer. Let him give his opinion. Look at all the other schools that have guys that dont live up to billing. That list is long and deep!
by LEMILES on Apr 10, 2009 5:23 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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