Burnt Orange Nation: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: Cal RB Jahvid Best Seriously Injured, Carted Off Field

Augie Garrido, Austin Wood, and Media Outrage

In the multitude of BON posts over the magical weekend at the Disch, we've soaked and basked in the afterglow of the two weekend victories from nearly every angle.  Like many Longhorns fans, we've celebrated the heroics of Preston Clarke and Austin Wood and fixated on the brilliance of the various moments, experiences, and performances of our players.  While we've largely remained focused on the victories, the pitch count of Austin Wood over the weekend has become ensconced as a topical point within the ongoing national debate over pitcher safety. 

Several respected baseball pundits have eviscerated Garrido's decision to leave in Wood, with Keith Law ($) even calling for Garrido to be fired.  After the jump, we will highlight several talking points from the discussion thread following an excellent post from Lone Star Ball, the Texas Rangers SBN site.  Within this discussion, the commentators help unravel the complexities which are normally left uncovered in the normal debates over the issue.  Instead of simply repeating the mantras over "Pitch Counts are for Wimps" or "130+ pitches = FIRE THE MANAGER", this discussion bears direct relevance to the issues surrounding Wood's performance.

Star-divide

In his post, which debunks the myth of Nolan Ryan actually abolishing pitch counts in Texas, Adam J. Morris highlights quotes from Evan Grant and Keith Law over Garrido's decision to leave Austin Wood as long as he did.  The money quotes are below, pulled from the Lone Star Ball article and linked to their original sources.

Evan Grant, writing on Inside Corner for D Magazine.

But Kevin Millwood, obviously tiring in the 93-degree heat won an eight-pitch battle against Jack Hannahan to end the inning with just the one run scoring. Millwood must be done with 116 pitches. Well, unless Augie Garrido has taken over the Rangers. He let a kid throw 169 pitches. As somone up here said "A coach can’t buy a kid a cheeseburger without creating some kind of violation, but he can abuse his arm all he wants." Me, if the coaches won’t act responsibily, I’d have the NCAA legislate pitch counts.  I know Austin Wood probably didn’t want to come out of the game, but 169 pitches is just shameful. 

 Keith Law ($), writing for ESPN's MLB Draft Blog

Sending any college pitcher, especially one with a pro future, out there to throw three or four times as many pitches as his arm is accustomed to throwing, and doing so when his arm is already fatigued from an outing the day before, is a firing offense. Both coaches should be terminated immediately before they get another chance to blow out anyone else's arm.

The Lone Star Ball post is interesting, but the most relevant points to this discussion come from various commenters in the discussion thread.  This discussion highlights both sides of the debate, but I want to highlight two comments outlining a more centric position.

From commenter "Darrell McKown", an avid UT fan who has previously posted under a "BurntOrange" handle.

Isn’t what Nolan is really saying is that he wants his pitchers to work harder and get in better shape so that they can throw more pitches without hurting themselves?

Nolan was well known for being in great shape. I think it’s pretty well accepted that the way you get hurt is throwing while tired, particularly if your mechanics get all out of whack because you are tired. So, if you work harder and get in better shape, it logically follows that you can throw more pitches before you get tired and greatly increased your chances of hurting yourself.

I think what’s he’s saying is don’t be happy just throwing 6 innings or 100 pitches, but work harder to increase how much you can safely pitch, which will vary by pitcher. He isn’t saying just blindly throw until your arm falls off.

McKown's point is significantly topical for this debate, as, immediately preceding Wood's epic performance, TexasSports.com published an feature article over Wood's off-season conditioning program, which he claims has allowed his arm to remain stronger over the course of the season.  However, any defense of Wood's extremely high pitch count based on his improved off-season workouts run into two immediate problems.  The first is that the TexasSports article additionally adds that his workouts were later tailored to his role of a closer.  The second--and larger problem--is presented by our own Big Roy, who, in his last post, noted that Wood was throwing up and cramping in the dugout during the 15th inning and continually fought through dehydration and exhaustion during his performance.

The fact that Wood was throwing while obviously being exhausted isn't a definitive precursor to an injury, but it definitely adds ammunition to Garrido's detractors.  On the flip side, the vomiting and cramping by Wood eliminates the ability of Garrido's defenders to point to Wood's conditioning as a defense for Wood's high pitch count.  However, neither of these arguments remain dispositive, as the second commenter that I want to feature explains how this might not effect Wood's short-term career prospects.

While I hate to ever credit someone from College Station, "WestTxAg06" brought a great perspective to the discussion.

Smart guys like Kevin Goldstein have made the point that the Rangers are just trying to manage the major league guys the right way: for too long, pitchers were overworked, and then the pendulum swung too far the other way and we started babying pitchers too much. Now, the Rangers are just trying to inject some common sense and find the middle ground: your starters are your best pitchers, generally, so use them as long as possible in a manner that is safe for the pitcher and good for the team’s chances of winning.

I generally like Keith Law, but his occasional hyperbolic rants against perceived evils and injustices annoy me. The Longhorns should fire Augie for keeping Wood out that long? Yeah, okay. I’m no fan of Augie as a person, but he’s one heck of a baseball coach. There are about 200 other Division I teams that would LOVE to see him fired for that offense.

The pendulum swing is an excellent observation and dovetails with my own personal experiences with the debate.  I'm not sure the proper middle ground has been found between non-existing and rigid pitch counts, as the proper barometer probably remains too speculative for any fan's liking or comfort.  Later in his entry, WestTxAg06 points out Jim Callis' measured response over WoodGate, which came in a chat session with the DMN.

1:15
[Comment From kyle]
How will the high pitch counts for Austin Wood and the BC reliever in the marathon 25 inning game on Saturday impact their draft status, if at all?
1:16
Jim Callis:  They won't impact them draft-wise. If there was a repeated pattern of overwork, it would be a concern. Belfiore is a second- to fourth-rounder, Wood a seventh- to 12th-rounder. Those pitch counts, especially for relievers who worked the day before, aren't what scouts want to see. But they were one-time only deals under exceptional circumstances, and both pitchers were strong throughout the outing and didn't look hurt.

In addition to making one point, Callis' response perhaps raises another.  Austin Wood's ceiling of a 7th-12th round draft pick can be viewed as an indicator of his potential to reach the major leagues.  In what will almost certainly amount to the highlight of his baseball career, Augie Garrido allowed Austin Wood to achieve greatness, instead of pulling him at a more reasonable time.  In my opinion, the fact that Wood adamantly opposed coming out of the game should amount for something, as a College Senior is old enough to not require constant "protection from himself."  I'm not absolving Garrido of any blame for the decision, as I'm still a little queasy over Wood throwing 200 pitches in 2 days after spending the season as a reliever. 

The ordeal reminds me of something from high school.  I've never forgotten one of my high school baseball playoff games, in which the opposing pitcher for Duncanville threw over 155+ pitches.  I was incredulous at the effort and quizzed one of the assistant coaches what he thought about the potential slagging of the pitcher's arm.  The coach said the kid had no prospects of playing Division I baseball due to his mediocre stuff and this effort would be the highlight of his baseball career.  My coach ultimately said that this was going to be the story the pitcher would be able to tell his kids, and he didn't see any harm in letting him go as long as he was physically and mentally effective on the mound.  Once again, this discussion made me a little queasy, but I definitely understood the point.

The fact that the gigantic workload shouldn't effect Wood's draft status is somewhat comforting to me, as it means that Wood shouldnt lose any bonus money from his signing.  An injury caused by the effort would obviously temporarily or permanently derail his career, but, based on his draft position, the opportunity cost remains smaller than it would for a first-rounder.

Conclusion

While we've largely ignored debating over Garrido's decision to leave in Austin Wood for 13 innings, he is being pummeled by some national writers concerned over Wood's future health.  I dont presume to have any moral certainty over whether this was the right decision, but, through this post, I wanted to highlight some intricacies within the debate beyond the drumbeating from the "Old School" and "New School" crowds over pitch counts.  We've found our star pitcher and legendary manager in the midst of a raging debate, and I wanted to provide BON with the opportunity for the topic to be adequately discussed.

To me, the key revolves around the bilateral nature of Wood's continued performance.  At any point, either Wood or Garrido could have terminated his outing, yet neither chose to take this step.  We will forever remember the heroics of Austin Wood, which is the result of a joint decision between Wood and Garrido to let the pitcher achieve a level of greatness perhaps never matched in College Baseball history.  In my opinion, I absolutely would have pulled Wood sooner, but I'm not entirely comfortable with getting on a high horse and declaring that Garrido inexorably should have protected Wood from himself.

What do you guys think?

Hook 'em!

 

0 recs  |  Comment 22 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Kirk Dressendorfer

It might be worth reviewing the case of Kirk Dressendorfer

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.

by Caradoc on Jun 1, 2009 9:44 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

"Bigger than the game"

That’s an important notion in baseball, where certain performances attain that stature. This week SI has a feature on Harvey Haddix, the Pittsburgh pitcher that went 12 innings of perfect ball before losing in the 13th, retiring 36 in a row. Considered one of the greatest performances in professional baseball history, Haddix was bigger than the game that night. That was in a time before pitch counts and starters went all the way if they could. And no one was going to interfere with a perfect game.

by whills on Jun 3, 2009 7:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

great article

so, really what these MLB guys are saying is that a guy damaging himself for $$$ is okay, but damaging himself for sheer glory is all wrong? Wow.

Had a fellow Husker alum and college baseball fan tell me this on the phone this evening – “That kid from Texas, throwing for 13 innings… that’s the most amazing thing I’ve ever heard of. I don’t think I can think of anything that’s more amazing than that.”

And with regards to Augie – when you’re the best at your profession, you’re always the biggest target.

Go Big Red Nebraska!
Our Cobs Are Bigger Than Yours!
Corn Nation!
Twitter!
cornnation@gmail.com

by corn blight on Jun 1, 2009 10:28 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Good point Twstr

It’s funny you point out some comments from a Rangers blog.
I have long been a Rangers fan and have followed the Jamey Newberg’s “The Newberg Report” blog for several years as Jamey has been blogging about the Rangers since his days at UT or shortly after. He does the best job of keeping up with any team’s minor league system out of any major league blogs I’ve ever seen.
Last year at “Newberg night” at The Ballpark, I asked him what he thought about Augie’s management of our pitchers last year in what some people called “overpitching” and Jamey just shrugged it off and just said, probably just college coaches overpitching their ptichers, nothing new. I thought that was funny how cynical he was about it.
I’m not about to blame Augie for keeping him in so long. All in all, it was a badass performance that will probably never be replicated. Hook em!

by SneezyBeltran on Jun 1, 2009 10:28 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Craig Way Reported

that Wood told Augie and Skip that there was no way they were taking him out of the game.If true then Augie is not so much to blame.

We went throughthis before with Huston Street and J. Brent Cox and both of them seem to be doing fine in pro ball.

This was a very important game for the Horns so IMHO Augie should getr a pass this time.

by TCB Orange Dino on Jun 1, 2009 10:39 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Correct me if i'm wrong

But i don’t believe cox has thrown a major league pitch yet…..

by Egonz on Jun 2, 2009 2:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Twstr: Thanks for the post and the references

Thanks also to Caradoc; the Dressendorfer issue has long been used as evidence that Gus abused his pitchers. In my view, and I love Gus in many ways, he did. Did it with Swindell and Dressendorfer and Hooton and others. But he also won and he, and other coaches, would argue that sometimes you have to do one to achieve the other.

If memory serves, there was some indication that a poor job of placing the pitching rubber in the UT bullpen led to Kirk throwing “at a wrong angle” for a time, and that the injury may have been related to that.

As to Austin Wood, Augie shouldn’t have pushed it that far. That’s crazy. Winning the game isn’t THAT important, especially given that Texas had the talent and pitching depth to lose to BC and still win the regional. But, and this is important, WE WEREN’T THERE. If the coaches felt Wood was straining, or losing it, they’d have hooked him. If his conditioning was first rate (evidently it was) and his mechanics sound that night, he may suffer no ill effects.

Let me throw in one more thing: If Augie pulls Wood after 120 pitches and the first batter the next reliever faces goes yard, what do UT fans say about Augie?

by edsp on Jun 1, 2009 10:42 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

didn't we go through something similar...

with Brooks Kieschnick? I seem to recall Gus leaving him in for something like 200 pitches in his last start (against oklahoma state?). At the time, lots of people freaked out but I remember thinking “the guys probably never going to pitch in the majors, this is probably his last time, is it really that big of a deal?” Obviously Wood is a slihtly different matter, given that he will pitch in the majors. It seems to me that 1 incredibly long outing is not likely to be a big deal…my 2 cents…

by SaintBevo on Jun 2, 2009 8:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Quick Thoughts

Everyone is quick to jump on the dehydration bandwagon. By all accounts it sounds like the kid was drinking after every half inning and may have been vomiting and cramping because of hyponatremia. Surely there were athletic trainers there to judge what was going on either way and if he was fit enough to pitch.

Next, I’ve notice most of the opinions falling on the “it was wrong to pitch him that much” coming from the group of people that see the stats but didn’t watch the game. The reverse is true, most of the people saying “this was a one time thing, he’s young and will be fine” coming from the group that was watching the game or listening on the radio broadcast. The truth lies somewhere in the middle and there is no right way to answer what was the perfect amount to pitch him.

"From the waist down, Earl Campbell has the biggest legs I have ever seen on a running back." -John Madden

by run Bevo run on Jun 1, 2009 11:44 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Do they drink water?

From what I know the risk of hyponatremia can be totally avoided by drinking gatorade (or competitors) which is isotonic with blood plasma.

by ajax77777 on Jun 2, 2009 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You cannot keep adding liquid to your body.

It’s like gas. Sure it’s a liquid and most liquids put out fires, but not all. From the accounts I read he was drinking too much.

King quotes Wood saying coaches were talking about taking him out after four or five innings, but he refused. He also said he drank 30 cups of Gatorade, Pedialyte and water, more than 200 ounces total. Wood, who entered in the sevennth inning, started cramping before the 15th, so the trainer would stretch him out. Before the 17th inning, King writes, Wood went into the locker room and “threw up violently because he’d been drinking too much too fast.”blockquote>
Link

"From the waist down, Earl Campbell has the biggest legs I have ever seen on a running back." -John Madden

by run Bevo run on Jun 2, 2009 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry for the fail formatting

"From the waist down, Earl Campbell has the biggest legs I have ever seen on a running back." -John Madden

by run Bevo run on Jun 2, 2009 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Know Nothings

I’ll dismiss the national media types, who do not cover college baseball. Back in the day, Kornheiser (on PTI) called for the dismissal of Garrido for not sending his team to receive the runner-up trophy in the CWS Championship game. All that controversy was was a slow news day.

by Eskimohorn on Jun 2, 2009 8:48 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

Frankly, it pisses me off that these guys who don’t give a damn about college baseball and have rarely lifted a finger to cover it have suddenly annointed themselves as judge, jury, and executioner on the Austin Wood issue.

Even Yankees manager Joe Girardi got in on the action and said that if he were Austin Wood’s father, he’d be pretty upset with Augie Garrido. Newsflash, Girardi – you’re not Austin Wood’s father, and you’re not his coach. Worry about your own pitchers.

Austin Wood is not a child. He’s a 22-year-old college veteran who has been both a starter and a reliever during his career. He’s not in Little League or high school baseball where the coach is supposed to know better than the player how much is too much. He was pitching better than he ever had in his career, and HE said his arm felt great. He was under the watchful eyes of his coaches and medical staff. Why is it anyone else’s business, least of all some “journalist” who cares about college baseball about as much as he cares about windsurfing, to say what Wood should or shouldn’t be doing?

Normally I would think a coach was crazy for throwing a closer beyond 3 or 4 innings at most. But this wasn’t a normal game or a normal situation. As Augie said after Sunday night’s game, baseball is a spiritual game, and some things you can’t expect to understand.

by bassale47 on Jun 2, 2009 9:04 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Well balanced article

I don’t think it was the right thing to do, but I agree that there’s a lot more to it than simply totaling the pitch count and declaring Garrido should be fired.

If a young pro pitcher were in the playoffs and pitching a no-hitter on his 130th pitch in a scoreless game, would the manager pull him? I don’t know, but I do know it would be a lot more debatable than what we’re getting from the mainstream media in this instance.

by DoubleB on Jun 2, 2009 11:24 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

a legend

The same columnists who are saying that Austin Wood was abused would be saying pitchers are coddled if he had been pulled earlier and Texas had lost. They’re just filling column inches. I’m pretty sure that none of them cares as much about Austin Wood and his future as Austin Wood and his current manager.

Most athletes never have a chance to do something legendary—Austin Wood became a god. What he did is what makes sports incredible. We should just appreciate what he did and forget about all the other stuff.

by ricockulous on Jun 2, 2009 12:09 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Super and beyond

Great analysis. I did not realize Belfiore was that highly regarded. That makes me feel a little better about our noodle bats. I’m looking more at the near future for Austin. How effective will he be this weekend and hopefully in Omaha? We will find out within a matter of days if the hero of Saturday night and Sunday morning still has a arm, that was golden for over 12 innings.

by b&g80 on Jun 2, 2009 2:54 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I didn’t realize he was that highly regarded either. The whole row of scouts at the game didn’t even lift a gun when he was pitching. They were obviously there to scout Wood. I don’t know too much about the scouting process but I’m a little surprised there were 5-6 scouts there to see a 7th-12th rounder. If they were….they saw a hell of a performance!

by RCD on Jun 3, 2009 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

mourning Wood

i’ve had the pleasure of meeting Austin on a couple of occasions. He’s impressive, really, really smart and focused. He knows what he wants and knows it takes a lot of work to get it. If he told Augie that he was good to go and there was no pain or anything happening with his arm, then knowing what kind of kid he is, what choice did Augie have? Sometimes you have to let people do what they need to do. Maybe Austin needed to do this.

Not to mention the fact that most of the people raising hell about this haven’t watched a college baseball game since last year. Much less a Texas baseball game. Austin will be fine. Augie? Who knows?

by Michael Crabtree on Jun 3, 2009 10:03 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The only that matters is the future of Wood's arm

We can argue this endlessly. If Wood suffers damage in the future, we probably know what caused it. If he doesn’t , then this one game didn’t really affect his arm. The future of his arm will settle this debate.

by goingforthecorner on Jun 3, 2009 6:20 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Richard Justice Chimes In

Richard Justice, Houston Chronicle sportswriter, has a blog today ripping Garrido for this pitch count issue, essentially saying he did it out of selfishness and greed and in disregard for the player’s future. Justice, although a UT alum, seems to enjoy occasionally getting UT fans riled up. He also apparently hates Garrido. I still have an article from years ago in which excoriates Garrido for the team not coming out to accecpt their runner-up CWS trophy. Justice is like the other righteously indignant sports commentators mentioned above who generally ignore college baseball unless there is some “scandal” or blood in the water.

"Only angry people win football games." --DKR

by OBdoc on Jun 4, 2009 9:11 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Burnt Orange Nation, a blog dedicated to University of Texas athletics. Get BON updates via Twitter.
Start posting about the Longhorns »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Ut_vs_fau_8-30-2008_049_small
Tebow Apologizes, Resumes Place at Right Hand of God

Recent FanPosts

Texas_old3_small
Defense performance vs. non-conference
2401104_1__small
The Almost Perfect Day of College Football
Jackut_small
Can we stop talking about the Aggies now?
Small
Texas-Baylor 2nd Half Thread Photo Recommendations
Img_0095_small
This week's petition to the AP from OU
Elephantlogoorange_small
BCS System Alternatives
Small
Mock BCS talk between Fla, Bama, Tex, Iowa
Clock_tower_small
Weekly BON Hit Award osu
Small
TCU?
Small
Boise St.

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

SPONSORS


Site Editors

Pb6_small Peter Bean

Dark_pumpkin_small awiggo

Menbooger_small GhostofBigRoy

Contributing Authors

Jersey_front_small 54b

Zombie_profilepic_small Horn Brain

Gse_multipart20834_small 40AS

Pigeons_small billyzane

Small whills

Brandedbevo1024x768_small dimecoverage

Rosebowl_small txtwstr7

Small TheElusiveShadow

Me_small burnt in ny

Official Partner of CBS Sports