Vince and the Future
by whills on Jun 2, 2009 9:57 PM CDT
36 comments
I had written this several weeks ago and was waiting for the appropriate time. Seems like it is now. I do this as a big thunderstorm is bearing down on me, including a tornado watch. Sorta appropriate, considering everything.
When Vincent Young left the
After three years in the NFL with the Tennessee Titans, his career has seen early highs and recent surprising lows but certainly, in my mind, he is far from the peak he achieved with the Longhorns in 2005. I realize that the Titans are within reach of winning a Super Bowl and within that infinity of possible moments, Vince might win a ring. He also might be on the bench when that occurs, but I doubt that unless it is injury-related.
Onward through the fog!
If
That’s what I think VY has fallen into: a caretaker offense with a team that doesn’t - and probably won’t - surround him with the means for him to play at the level he can achieve.
So, what are those means? A strong offensive line is a given for any dynamic offense. Tennessee is getting closer, but not superb. You don’t have the OL, your offense will struggle, whether passing, running or hybrid. Next are the accompanying threats - and at Houston Madison and at UT Vince had speed surrounding him, all receiver and backs (except the FB) had speed to burn and overmatched most every opponent defense.
It is that speed and the potential threats that will open the playbook for Vince - if the offensive attack is aggressive. That is really the difference I see with
Tennessee has Chris Johnson - that’s 4.24 speed - and with newly acquired Nate Washington from Pittsburgh and Kenny Britt, a rookie from Rutgers whose three-year’s worth of receptions established new receiving records, they have some receiver speed. I sincerely doubt within the NFL that the Titans have killer speed or even above average receiver speed. They’re faster than they were, but that’s not saying a hell of a lot, especially with a rookie in the mix. Do they have enough to counter what you find in pro defenses? Can
I really think at this point Fisher - and Bud Adams - made a $58 million mistake. They needed a talented quarterback but they didn’t need someone of the caliber of Vince Young. Vince needed - and needs - a team to build the type of offense which allows him to assert his innate field instincts and aggressive manner of attack. Time is running out on that proposition but still is a possibility as long as VY remains physically gifted. Old quarterbacks all become caretaker QBs if they stick around. If Vince is not the starting QB, it can be stated that damn few teams keep a quarterback pulling $11+ mil a year sitting on the bench for long, especially one in the next to the last year of his five-year contract. He plays or he gets traded. It’s situational.
I’m even wondering if some team is out there thinking exactly that. The calculation could go like this:
Some might take that last option an admission of failure by
I don’t know Vince Young nor do I know his mind, so I have no real idea what transpired last year. I know what the news and web stories said, but there is always more - and less, when the hype is stripped away.
I’m convinced that if you let Vince play the kind of football that is keyed to his capabilities, all problems go away. And if you don’t, few problems are resolved. I don’t worry about Vince being Vince.
**********
You can also chew on these things as the summer begins:
* What team(s) would you think likely that VY might go to?
* What team(s) really suit him, if any?
* What teams actually need a Vince Young? (VY and AP?)
* What QBs would you trade straight up for him (Romo for VY, for instance)?
* Why you think he might start and be the exact answer for
0 recs |
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The storm is coming on strong and I have to shut down.
I’ll check back in tomorrow and see how powerfully y’all have chewed on this bone.
by whills on Jun 2, 2009 10:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe I'm Just Wishing...
Thinking that an offense with an above average offensive line, a stud running back – with another excellent running back, 2-3 solid veteran receivers and a super fast rookie receiver might thrive if VY was given the keys to the car. The Minnesota Vikings are an interesting fit. I know that Denver, Cleveland, San Francisco, and St. Louis are in need; Miami, Washington, and Seattle would be interesting, but the most successful opportunity might be up in the Metrodome. Seriously…defending an offense with AP, Vince, Percy Harvin and Chester Taylor should cause lots of issues for opponents.
What could the Vikings give up? Right now, fortunately, Vince’s trade value might be lower than expected – contract size increasing in the near future, and perceived as the back-up for Tennesee. Maybe a draft pick and one of the three Vikings QB’s: Tarvaris, Sage, or John David Booty could entice the Titans. But, if the Vikings do blow this opportunity, or if Tennesee doesn’t shop him…I’m always hoping for a crappy Minnesota season, ditch both T-Jack and Brad Childress and be able to draft a certain Longhorn that followed VY.
by Veeks! on Jun 2, 2009 10:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Let me start by saying...
I’m a huge Vince fan. I wear his Orange #10 all the time. I was at the 2004 Rose Bowl. I love VY.
But, I don’t think an athlete like VY can play in the NFL with the current state of offenses. How many teams play a wide open, “spread” type offense? Maybe the Patriots and maybe Indy. Maybe Arizona could. Maybe the Texans could too. The Rams that beat the Titans in ’99 could, as well.
But teams don’t play wide open schemes as in college. Teams don’t have explosive sets of WRs and RBs to surround a QB like Vince with attacking speed around the field.
I can see VY becoming a situational QB, somewhat like a wild cat QB but not with the Titans. Vince must leave the Titans, but I don’t know which team he could go to in order to play in a wide open attack. Maybe Arizona after Warner retires. We all know Matty boy is more interested in beer bongs and hot tubs than film study.
"Texas has yet to learn submission to any oppression, come from what source it may."
~Sam Houston
by vik on Jun 2, 2009 10:55 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I expect to be in a minority on this.
In fact, I MIGHT BE a minority of one . . . I think Vince will be just fine as an NFL quarterback. I think he was on the way to becoming one when a confluence of events sacked him last September.
To explain: His first season was excellent, his second season pretty good. Considering he came out a year early with a non-NFL type of game playing a distinctly non-NFL offense in college, he was nearly terrific in 2006. For whatever reason, he got frustrated early in ‘08 and, since the coach had an option, he went with it. And the team took off — as, I believe, it would have had Vince retained the starting job. Since it wasn’t broke . . .
Vince retains the almost one-of-a-kind skill he showed in 2005 and 2006, that terrific blend of a strong arm and elusive but powerful running. His year on the bench, while ego-deflating, gave him the opportunity to watch and learn. If Michael Vick (pre prison) and Donovan McNabb can be near All-Pros, so can Vince.
That said, he needs a break to get on the field. Maybe that’s a trade, but I don’t see the Titans going long with a 37-year-old QB who was Vince’s backup for two years.
by edsp on Jun 2, 2009 11:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Detroit
Nothing to lose and plenty of high draft choices for years to come.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
by Caradoc on Jun 2, 2009 11:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Would love to see it...
But it ain’t going to happen after they just overpaid for Stafford. Schwartz has generally been positive (or, at least, not negative) in his comments about Vince but he’ll be under some pressure to develop Stafford into a franchise QB. It would be interesting if the QB situation in Tennessee replicates itself in Detroit when/if Culpepper performs well and Stafford rides the bench with a fat contract.
by utexas87 on Jun 3, 2009 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Detroit is raving about Stafford and his early workouts.
Of course, the Lions tend to rave before the season starts.
by whills on Jun 3, 2009 7:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah..
….and that’s when Stafford looks his best.
by vy til i die on Jun 5, 2009 11:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As is far too common in sports reporting apparently
many in the media seem to have lost perspective about the relationship between Vince, Fisher, Bud, & the Titans. I believe Vince has a very good chance to regain his job at Tennessee, but even if that doesn’t happen, he has an even better chance to get a shot at a starting spot when all the teams are involved.
The Titans went 5-11 in 2004, 4-12 in 2005, & started 0-3 in 2006 w/ Kerry Collins as the starting qb. They were not a good team. Vince starts game 4 (blowout loss to Cowboys), gets his first win in game 6 (so Titans are 1-5 & Vince is 1-2 as a starter), then leads the Titans to an 8-7 record going into their last game of the season. If they win they are in the playoffs. Think about the turnaround that represents given the previous 2 1/2 years. So their last game of the year is essentially a playoff game, but they’re playing the Patriots & finish 8-8, after being 1-5 w/ a rookie qb. The next year the Titans go 10-6 and lose in the first round of the playoffs to the Chargers. I think drawing the Patriots and Chargers in those 2 years to get knocked out of the playoffs is pretty tough, but it’s the NFL & the AFC in particular, so whatever.
I think that represents something pretty remarkable, especially on a team that was struggling so much prior to Vince playing. I’m not a Titans fan, but I was amazed how quickly Vince went from being the guy who turned the fortunes of the franchise around & saved Fisher’s job to the quarterback who threw too many interceptions & was too stupid to play in the NFL. Everybody forgot that the Titans pretty much owed any success they had in 2006 & 2007 to Vince, while providing below average NFL receivers & not near the running game they have now. There are people in the NFL who remember what he did for the Titans. Bet on it. He needs some good coaching, who doesn’t, but he also needs to play. Somebody will give him that chance.
I think Vince is back behind center before too long for the Titans, but if not, I would absolutely love to see Vince join the Dolphins. Ronnie Brown, Ricky, Vince, & Pat White to mix & match with in the wildcat would be a lot of fun to watch. Think they’d take a run at Vick, too? Second to the Dolphins would be the Eagles. Pass-happy west coast offense. Spread the field, short passing game, lots of dump-offs to the backs, run when it’s there, take a couple shots deep each game. Maybe the Packers?
by hungry on Jun 3, 2009 12:30 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I love VY as much as anyone else, but...
…2007 was not a very good year for him. I’d argue that the defense is what won many a game for the Titans that year. Vince played much better than I had hoped in his rookie year, but that follow-up year was a disappointment. I agree that QB ratings don’t take rushing yards and TD’s into account, but VY really didn’t run as much that second year as he did his rookie year. Don’t know if defenses keyed on it, or if he was just doing so much to try to prove he could be a pocket passer.
by junglerules on Jun 3, 2009 7:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm perhaps too much a fan of Vince to ever be objective
but I think Saint Bevo’s post further down echoes a lot of my opinion, especially in regards to 2007. There were no other weapons on offense, so Fisher got more conservative on offense in an attempt to rely on his defense, and the result was a year w/ no real growth from Vince while other NFL teams had a year of film on him. I think ‘08 was the best offensive team they have had since Vince’s arrival, w/ the run blocking very good, LenDale having his best year, the emergence of Chris Johnson, & the play-action that should be money in the bank. I think Vince will have his best stats yet when he gets his shot. I guess I just feel like they contracted his responsibilities going into 2007, rather than try to evolve & further him. The lack of offensive weapons and strengthening D being why.
by hungry on Jun 5, 2009 12:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, yes their defense definitely deserves credit
but I still think Vince does as well. 9-26 in the previous 2 years & 3 games prior to starting a rookie qb who goes 8-5 the rest of the way in ’06, then goes 10-6 in ’07, w/ no real receiving threat and a sub-par running game.
by hungry on Jun 5, 2009 12:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A few points...
1. I’m no cap expert, but doesn’t Vince have a huge cap number next year (along with this year) that makes him virtually untradeable? I was hearing the options were for the Titans to bite the bullet this year and release him, or to wait until the end of the ’09 season and release him, to mitigate the cap hit. Maybe someone with more knowledge can help me out.
2. Count me on the side of thinking the Titans are going to sorely regress this year, even with Savior Collins continuing his usual caretaker play at QB. I remember a stat from somewhere where the average turnover of playoff teams is 6. I don’t expect Tennessee will be one of those 6 back next year, especially with the always dangerous Indianapolis Peytons and (dare I dream it?) improved play from the Texans.
3. As for Vince, if you look at the objective opinion of league personnel, writers, and fans, almost no one is on the side of VY (save for Longhorn fans across the nation). While some blame can be laid on extremely conservative coaching and personnel decisions, the fact remains that Vince has done little to live up to the billing of being the third pick in the draft. While it’s still possible that he may succeed, every day he sits on the bench that probability drops a little bit more. While I (again, like many other Longhorn fans across the nation) still hold out hope he will be a success, at what point do we write him off from a successful NFL career? Maybe he was just a great college player, and that’s the end of the story. I rather hope not.
by jc25 on Jun 3, 2009 8:44 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I believe you are right
If VY is to be moved, it’s next season. This season, the Titans would take an unwanted cap hit.
by TheElusiveShadow on Jun 3, 2009 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cap Implications
Boiling it down:
If the Titans were to part ways with Young before this season starts, it would actually cost them an additional $2.76 million against the cap. But in swallowing a $7.38 million cap hit in 2009, the Titans would take Young off their books beyond 2009 and then save the complete scheduled cap numbers in 2010 and 2011.
Barring a scenario where he replaced an injured Kerry Collins and had an MVP season or won a Super Bowl as the starter — and maybe even in the context of such unlikely events — it’s unfathomable that Young will be a Titan under this contract in 2010 — when he’s due a $4.25 roster bonus, a $7.5 million base salary and would cost $14.21 against the cap under contract and only $4.29 million if he was taken off the roster in 2010.
by SuperHorn on Jun 3, 2009 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great info, SuperHorn. Thanks so much.
The cap implications will have a direct bearing on whether he stays or goes and when that might happen.
by whills on Jun 3, 2009 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
By the by
Some follow-up from Paul Kuharsky, who writes about the AFC South the same way Tim Griffin covers the Big XII (i.e., he knows what he’s talking about).
I understand why, coming out of Texas, Vince Young was compelled to hire an inexperienced agent. Major Adams is a family friend, and it’s hard to sort through outsiders and find someone you can trust at the most important time in your life.
But the time has come for Young to make the sort of in-career adjustment he’s not been able to make in-game. Adams did well getting Young a great rookie contract, but is largely inexperienced in the ways of the NFL. The current list on the NFL Players Association’s Web site indicates Young is his lone current NFL client.
My sense has long been that the Titans’ No. 2 quarterback is surrounded by too many people who tell him what he wants to hear, who don’t want to ruffle his feathers or who add fuel to the idea he may have that the team/the public/the media is against him, and that’s the source of his problems.
And more…
But now Terry McCormick reports that agent Major Adams said Young does not want to be traded.
[…]
That’s all well and good, though it’s possible for a guy to continue to meet obligations and commitments while wanting out.
But if Young has no desire to leave, he probably shouldn’t talk on camera about how somebody else is ready for him to play ball if the Titans aren’t.
by jc25 on Jun 3, 2009 8:49 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Be Ready
VY needs to work his ass off and be ready to step in at the first chance he gets. No way does Collins last another full season without some injury. If VY is ready and takes advantage then all will work out fine.
by TXHorns on Jun 3, 2009 9:08 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It's a bit disturbing how quick Titans fans have turned on him
Some even resorting to revisionist history to claim he didn’t win with them and that he straight lost his job because of Kerry Collins beating him out rather than him being injured. Now, everything he does or says is jumped on to try to rip him; this past interview is really a non-story, a completely boring interview of a backup who said he wants to start and that if he didn’t, he’d have to look elsewhere for his career. Big whoop. Like I’ve never heard that before. Yet this is blown up as a story in which he is threatening the Titans with a “play me or trade me” gambit. It’s bizarre.
That being said, he hasn’t helped himself; he said earlier in the offseason he’d keep his mouth shut because he knew the media would do this to him, and then he talked to the media, and lo and behold, they did it to him. Vince really needs to stay away from interviews, because he is poor with words and it is easy for any malicious writer to take certain quotes out and rip him up.
by TheElusiveShadow on Jun 3, 2009 9:40 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Have to agree about this, Shadow.
After the wonderful victory over Army, I watched 61*, the wonderful Billy Crystal produced period piece about Mantle and Maris in 1961. Maris was not articulate and not particularly experienced with the press; one writer in particular stayed on his butt all one season. The syndicated New York columnist influenced many readers and other writers as well. The lovable Mantle was everyone’s favorite (except Joe DiMaggio) long before Maris came along, so Maris was fighting an emotional tide not of his own doing.
There is really no way to counter such wounding, whether self-inflicted or by a malicious writer or broadcaster. With the wide range of sports information being disseminated today, there is always someone to take the counter point and beat it mercilessly. There is not many ways out of the trap either; being quiet and saying nothing – which Maris tried – was as bad as saying anything.
Being bland, truthful and very brief is probably the very best antidote. It is a standing monkey trap with no way out until VY gets on the field with a chance to prove his case where it counts.
by whills on Jun 3, 2009 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boy, that's some pretty rusty grammar. nt
by whills on Jun 3, 2009 7:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I did like the "standing monkey trap" bit, though :-)
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
by Caradoc on Jun 3, 2009 7:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Trade
I don’t see a situation where Vince gets traded this year, unless he has become a huge distraction in the locker room. I would actually be a larger cap hit if they trade him this year because of accelerated bonuses, etc, than it would to just let him ride the pine.
Next year is a different story. Vince can be cut without consequence in 2010. In fact, they end up gaining $9.29 mm. Either he restructures his contract next offseason, or they’ll let him go.
by SuperHorn on Jun 3, 2009 10:32 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Tennessean slams VY today....
Young might be ready to play ball, but he is definitely not ready to be an NFL quarterback. Oh, he can run like the wind, but running will ultimately get a quarterback killed in the NFL. Opposing defenses caught on to Young after his rookie season. They confused him with coverages. They kept him in the pocket. His interceptions almost double his touchdown passes.
After being booed last season, Young balked at going back in the game. A couple of plays later he was injured and Collins became the starter.
The biggest question the Titans must have is — can they trust Vince Young? At this point, the answer appears to be no.
by the1austin on Jun 3, 2009 12:50 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
This brings up something important that is underplayed.
You would expect NFL defenses to find a best solution to any QB. I will note that the confusion arose most when the defenses applied max pressure and disguised coverages well.
What is underplayed is: where was the damn coaching staff? The Titans should have expected such as response and had situational alternatives ready. This isn’t all on Vince’s back. Most any NFL defense can do this to any QB anytime; the best QBs, especially those with quick releases, make them pay for it.
So, for VY, where were the offensive counter to the defensive ploy? The planned roll-outs; the hot receivers, the adjusted routes (especially someone going deep to both keep the safties back and burn them if there was time), additional blocking as needed, quick count plays? This is not an especially unusual situation at all – no doubt there will be rookie QBs who will see it this season – so, where was the Titan coaching staff?
If the coaching staff couldn’t or wouldn’t adjust, I might not want to go back in the game and get murdered again. So, part of the response to that piece is: Can Vince Young trust the Titans?
by whills on Jun 3, 2009 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I keep hearing about this supposed refusal to go back into the game, but I’ve seen a few quotes from Vince and Fisher saying that the story is false, just as with the Wonderlic. Is this another Al-Gore-claims-he-invented-the-internet type of rumor?
by burntorangehorn on Jun 6, 2009 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could be. Haven't had time to delve deeply.
However, that is the one “event” that seems to be the ledge, the premise, that so much starts from.
by whills on Jun 6, 2009 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
VY only has to do one thing
take care of the football. If he can do just that, he’ll be fine, and would be good enough to start on a Super Bowl caliber team. He has to be smart with his decision-making, and improve his accuracy.
On a team with a great defense and a great running game (we all know he can contribute to that running game), he shouldn’t have to throw much.
by goingforthecorner on Jun 3, 2009 6:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
What Vince needs
is a situation where the team will let him play and learn the position at the NFL level. Struggles for a young QB come with the territory and the fact that the Titans added no talent around him when he started didn’t help. A few of things happened that led to Vince’s fall from grace in Tenn:
- Titans discovered their defense – The Defense matured into a very good one and Fisher realized that he could win games with this D, therefore…
- Titans got conservative on offense – I can’t say I blame them, but their offensive playcalling went into a shell in Vince’s 2nd year. They asked Vince to “manage the game.” This doesn’t play to Vince’s strengths and I think hampered his development as a pro QB. If he was a fundamentally sound, accurate QB this would make sense, but…
- Titans didn’t add weapons for Vince – They had the worst WR corps in football the last yew years. Period. A young QB, especially one needing to learn some pro-style skills, needs receivers around him that he can rely on. I remember very clearly watching Vince play the Colts in week 2 of the 07 season. Titans fell behind 22-6, but came back to draw with in 2 (22-20). Down 2, inside 2 minutes, Vince begins to lead his team by the field. He hits a wide open WR (Brandon Jones?) in FG range, but he drops the easy catch. Vince can’t get it done on 4th and Colts win. A half-way decent WR catches that ball and Vince has another great comeback win under his belt.
Vince would be better served on a team that is willing to deal with his mistakes, probably one without Superbowl aspirations, and let him grow into the position.
by SaintBevo on Jun 3, 2009 7:50 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That's a sensible post, SaintBevo.
When the Titans didn’t get VY any help in the draft, there was a gnashing of teeth around here. I had a feeling of trouble up the road. Fisher had put his money on the D. The Titans picked up a lot of receivers in free agency but none of those became weapons at all…most are gone now. This year they split the draft between offense and defense, and made a trade for a good WR. I didn’t think this was due to VY but more that their existing receivers (except TE) just sucked, were old and in the way.
by whills on Jun 3, 2009 8:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Receivers
Speed is always and asset, along with the ability to run good routes. But remember, Vince needs receivers that can get open on broken plays and adjust to shifting passing lanes. (It also helps if they can block.)
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
by Caradoc on Jun 5, 2009 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, you're right about those broken off routes.
Up above I attribute some of that to the coaches, for lack of anticipation and preparation for an eventually they knew would probably happen at some point. If you leave your QB with no options but to eat the ball, that doesn’t all fall on the QB’s shoulders.
Do the Titans (or did they last year) have that sophisticated a passing attack?
by whills on Jun 6, 2009 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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