Position Switch For Tray Allen?
by Peter Bean on Aug 19, 2009 12:39 PM CDT
in Texas Longhorns Football
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PrintThe latest rumor making its way around the Longhorns interwebs involves heretofore offensive lineman Tray Allen making the move to... nose tackle? It certainly makes sense in some regards: Texas is thin at the position, Allen is struggling to break through the depth chart on the OL, and the Horns need a big body or two to eat up blockers on the interior of the D-Line. And certainly, if the coaches like what they're seeing from David Snow and Mason Walters more than what they're getting from Allen (a junior this fall), why not? If true, it's a creative gambit that speaks well of the coaches' willingness to try to get the most out of every player on the roster.
The big question would be whether Allen could get low enough to be effective. Allen is listed at 6-5; by comparison, former standout NTs Casey Hampton and Roy Miller are both 6-1. Which is not to say that taller tackles can't get it done, but it's difficult to get low enough to get the drive one needs to be disruptive.
[Update]: Burnt Orange Beat says the initial move happened on Friday ($) and that it is a "trial" move, not necessarily permanent. Also, their sources say that any rumors about grade issues for Ben Alexander and/or Lamarr Houston prompting Allen's move are untrue. --GhostofBigRoy--
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If true, I like the move
But the timing makes me queasy. This far into summer drills, it’s a move made out of (sorry for the word) desperation.
Obviously, the situation at defensive tackle is not good. Great that the staff responds — not so great that they feel forced to respond.
Desperate, nah. Just hedging.
Going from back up OL to back up DL is not desperate. It’s a safe bet for inevitable injuries.
"From the waist down, Earl Campbell has the biggest legs I have ever seen on a running back." -John Madden
by run Bevo run on Aug 19, 2009 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Odd
Coming out of high school, most, if not all, thought Tray was the next great OLineman. It’s a shame that it hasn’t worked out for him. Hopefully, if this is true, this move will work out for the best, ala Henry Melton (though in all reality, that was the most obvious move ever).
I remember when we were recruiting Tray. I think you and I both were ecstatic when he committed, and then qualified. He’s had a few bumps along the road if I recall correctly (associating with the wrong people when he was a freshman) but I definetly expected him to be a starter by now. Maybe this is his chance. Whatever happens I hope he finally lives up to our expectations this season.
Still a Blaine Irby fan
by patienthornsfan on Aug 19, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Agree about height perspective,
It’s one of the things that I worry about with Kheeston Randall. As much as I would like this to work, I’m not sure if I see this, or even if I necessarily believe that it’s true.
by Wescott Eberts (GoBR) on Aug 19, 2009 1:15 PM CDT reply actions
there is precedent, and this make sense given Lamarr Houston's movement on the line
Shaun Rodgers and Haloti Ngata are tall NT (6-4) who have made it both in college and the pros, so its shouldn’t necessarily count against Allen.
To me this news seems to fit in with what we’ve been hearing about Houston’s role on the D-line. The coaches seem to want to free Houston up from the double team. But since 5 OLs is greater than 4 DLs, someone is probably going to be getting double teamed. Kheeston & Ben Alexander are probably going to have to be those guys for the most part, but two is certainly not enough. It would seem like a waste to potentially burn a redshirt on a guy like Calvin Howell if he’s just not physically there yet to handle two blockers. All of which would make this the right move for Tray Allen.
In general tackle requires less of the fancy footwork LT requires, and is better suited for a run blocking offensive linemen to convert to. Tray would have been a great fit in the zone running scheme he was recruited for, but the Horns are a pass first team now and we certainly seem to be headed in that direction with Gilbert.
I don’t think Tray could have the same type of impact Henry Melton had because he’s probably not nearly the same physical specimen Melton was. However, providing another big body to gobble up blockers and free up Houston, Acho, and Kindle seems to make sense and shows how important getting to the QB is to Muschamp.
I like the move the more that I think about it,
particularly after seeing that he did play some defense in high school — like Chiles, he’s trying to remember what he learned rather than starting from scratch. As I mentioned in the update I just added to PB’s original story, the move isn’t permanent and if he can give the team anything, particularly in taking up two blockers as you mention, it would be a huge lift to the defensive line.
by Wescott Eberts (GoBR) on Aug 19, 2009 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions
How is the move last year working out for Ryan Roberson?
Any news on him? I think the kid was like a 4.4 fullback coming out of Brenham? Have to think he’s starting to show up on the radar as LB?
by orangetower on Aug 20, 2009 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions
No buzz about Roberson at all.
by Wescott Eberts (GoBR) on Aug 20, 2009 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions
He's still young
Saw after my post that Mack said he’d been moving him around quite a bit, even running back? Did I hear that right? Still listed as LB, but looks like coaches are keeping everyone guessing?
Great speed and strong looking athlete though. Hope to see him develope.
Unselfish move for Allen
If it is true then I admire the young man for being open to helping the team however he can. This could be a new wave of adjustment coming down. O-lines seem to be getting shorter heavier guards to offset the shorter heavier D-lines…Tray & Keenan just might be the leading edge to counter that trend….regardless I like the contribution!
If true, what a team player!
This is the type of move that if it works out, could really make for a special season. We need a space eater, big and strong enough to stuff the run. I dont know about his mean streak, but if he has one, long strong arms, can get low and is coachable this could be GREAT news!
I guess he played NT and DE in HS for SGP - maybe not a stretch!!!
HIGH SCHOOL
Coached by David Fisher at South Grand Prairie H.S. … a consensus first-team prep All-America selection on the offensive line as a senior … a Parade All-American … tabbed the top lineman on the Parade All-America team … also earned first-team All-America honors from USA Today … participated in the 2007 U.S. Army All-American Bowl … was a member of ESPN’s top 150 national prospects … a three-year starter on both sides of the ball … played left tackle, nose guard and defensive end … named first-team 5A all-state by The Associated Press and the Texas Sports Writers Association as a senior … also a first-team all-district 7-5A selection … led South Grand Prairie to a 10-2 record and a 7-5A District Championship … part of a line that helped South Grand Prairie average 379.0 total yards per game and 207.8 rushing yards per game … helped lead team to a victory over Arlington Bowie in the 5A Division I playoffs … played on both sides of the ball versus Euless Trinity and recorded six tackles … as a junior, helped the Warriors average 349.2 total yards per game and 238.5 rushing yards per game en route to a 10-2 record and a bi-District Championship … also a three-year letterwinner in basketball and played baseball as a freshman.
some possible reason for optimism?
This move, if it’s really happening, could give the Longhorns more opportunities to do things defensively, and we know how much Muschamp likes to be multiple. Height is not entirely correlated with a lack of leverage – a more important factor is center of gravity. A player with a lot of lower body strength and shorter legs than normal for their height can have a very low center of gravity and be difficult to uproot. I haven’t seen a picture of Trey Allen, and so it’s impossible to speculate about his center of gravity, but I wouldn’t write him off just because he’s 6’5." Further, as noted by sam0807, his bio states that he was a starter at defensive tackle and/or defensive end for three years in high school, so playing defense isn’t completely new to him. He also was a high school basketball player, and may have more quickness than the typical offensive lineman. One can only guess why these abilities didn’t translate into success on the OL.
The other thing to consider is that different sizes and shapes of defensive tackles can be used in different schemes ( for a simple and informative primer see this link). Depending on Allen’s weight (listed at 315 now – I bet that could go up to 325 in a month), center of gravity, and lateral quickness, he could be used as a two-gap tackle at the nose (0 technique), between the guard and tackle (3 technique), or even like a 3-4 defensive end right on the tackle (4 or 5 technique depending on which side he “shades” the offensive lineman). For more info, see ChrisApplewhite’s video-enhanced discussion of the DT position in BC’s archives. If nothing else, Allen would give Texas a second player big enough to take an OL on straight up, which may be critical in keeping the DL fresh and implementing the “Buck” package that moves Kindle around to different gaps.
My initial thought
was that it really hurts depth on the OL next year when we lose Hall, Tanner and Ulatoski. But the DT depth chart for next year could be really, really ugly if more than a couple of the vast number of unknowns don’t step up. Going into next year the DT situation could be even worse than the coaches are facing this year.
A poster on BC said this move was initiated by Muschamp. If true, not sure it says more about the potential he sees in Allen or the potential issues he sees outside of the one known commodity, Houston.
Although his height is not ideal, it...
will really come down to how hard he works at the position and how quickly he can adjust to moving to the other side of the ball. And based on sam0807’s post, he played a substantial amount of DL in high school, so that should make the transition a bit easier, but it is still going to require a tremendous commitment on his part. He has always had great strength and a great attitude, but I am just not sure about his initial burst off the line. And he doesn’t always seem to have the quickest feet in the world, which will be less of a problem on defense, but may explain why he went from an OT to OG to DT prospect in the span of two years. Although his height may present leverage issues, there is hope for both he and Randall—former UT DTs Rodrique Wright (6-5) and Shaun Rogers (6-4) were “taller”, but had very productive UT careers and both went on to play on Sundays. In the alternative, Allen can gain 50 lbs. and be Terrence Cody “lite” (who is 6-5 tall and seemingly 6-5 wide). Seems like a great kid, so here is to hoping that he now becomes the season’s “biggest” surprise.
Exactly
can you imagine a 6’2 or 6’3 QB trying to find a passing lane? If he gets any kind of push at all then just lift his arms. I think the question will be can he get off the ball low enough and quick enough for the penetration?
by orangetower on Aug 20, 2009 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions
his height
I’ll go the other way with that. I love the 6-5, let’s say “too tall Tray” if he gets a fair amount of playing time, and gets his arms up on passes, let’s set the pass defelection over/under at 5 conservatively adding to potent pass defense.
Are you talking about against Colorado?
Or for the year?
He may get 5 against KU as well.
by BoddickerIsClutch on Aug 19, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions
I dont recall ever having a 6-5 NT
Throws a nice PD wrinkle in though I think, and you may be right, call it 10-12 PDs possible for the year, 5 is too low.
Fine
He isn’t going to do anything substantive on the OL this year; he is not going to start and there is good depth and talent.
Might as well try him out at DL and see if he can produce some quality PT sometime this year.
In summary, I’d rather have a chance at something than a guaranteed nothing. If he stays on offense, he’ll probably graduate without ever taking a solid starting spot.
A Question about transferrability of skills
My knowledge of the requisite skills for linemen is limited. As I understand things, O line requires acute playbook knowledge, lateral movement (especially tackles), balance, excellent upper body strength. Interior D line emphasizes leverage to get underneath O line, so excellent lower body strength….not sure what other skills make a superior interior def lineman.
There are successful guys of varying sizes, as discussed above. For Tray Allen, a tall dude, what skills transfer from his previous position? What will he need to work on in order to make a difference when it counts?
Lateral movement and a high motor are important,
as are using hands to keep the offensive lineman’s hands off.
by Wescott Eberts (GoBR) on Aug 19, 2009 10:56 PM CDT up reply actions
2010 O-line.Who starts?
LT- Kyle Hix
LG- ?
C- David Snow
RG- Huey
RT- Mason Walters
'10 starters
LT Walters
LG Allen
C Snow
RG Huey
RT Hix
Top subs (deep breath): Mitchell, Ashcraft, uh, uh, Moore
I think Mitchell has been playing well at tackle,
so he might have a shot at starting there next season. I think you are probably right about Allen playing the other guard spot, I forgot about him for some reason. Hardly excusable today seeing as how he has been in the news.
by Wescott Eberts (GoBR) on Aug 20, 2009 12:01 AM CDT up reply actions
Has no one heard of Frank Okam? I can’t find the combine results for him, but he was listed at 6’5" 320 on the nfl.com draft page, which usually draws from the combine measurements.
Regardless, plenty of other tall defensive tackles have been successful at the college level, including Richard Seymour, Marcus Stroud, John Henderson, Shaun Rogers, Rien Long, etc. Several of those guys were 6’6" or taller, in fact. Rogers, who I believe was 6’4", is the midget of the bunch.
by burntorangehorn on Aug 20, 2009 1:38 PM CDT reply actions
follow-up:
I’m going through some DL draft history, and I’m sure I missed a few, but I’m also not going to click through to find the height of every single Red Bryant (6’5", by the way) defensive tackle. I’m going for fairly impressive college defensive tackles who are 6’4"+.
Alan Branch (6’5")
UT’s own Rodrique Wright (6’5")
Darnall Dockett (6’4")
Jimmy Kennedy (6’5")
Albert Haynesworth (6’6")
Wendall Bryant (6’5")
Gerard Warren (6’4")
The list continues, and of course includes the guys from my previous post, who (other than Rogers) were all 6’6" or taller. John Henderson, who was absolutely dominant in college, was listed at 6’7" for Tennessee.
by burntorangehorn on Aug 20, 2009 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions
How many were OL until their Jr years in college?
I guess this is my only concern. I have hope considering Melton’s ability to switch and contribute at a high level, but over at Barking Carnival they were ripping this switch to shreds.
Not sure how many, if any, were, but I was specifically addressing the concern about his height, not anything else. Few guys make a great transition from one side of the ball to the other; Damian McIntosh did for Kansas State, and he’s been a starting offensive lineman at almost every position on several NFL teams. I’m not sure about the likelihood of success for a talented, but under-performing, guard moving to nose tackle. I would think that if he’s asked to be more of a space-eater and to occupy blockers, a lot of the skills a guard uses in run-blocking would translate rather well, but I’m certainly no expert on the matter.
by burntorangehorn on Aug 20, 2009 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions
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