I Know He's The Roommate, But Isn't He Also The Flanker?
by Peter Bean on Aug 28, 2009 1:04 AM CDT
in Texas Longhorns Football
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PrintI'm trying to work through a longer piece on the depth chart and for the life of me can't figure out what in the hell is going on at wide receiver. Check out the depth chart published on MB-TF.com. Notice anything strange?
According to the 2009 depth chart: Malcolm Williams, last year's starting split end, is now co-starting with John Chiles at Sub-B wideout, the position formerly occupied by Quan Cosby, while Jordan Shipley, last year's starting flanker, is this year's starting split end (backed up by Malcolm Williams and Dan Buckner), while James Kirkendoll and Brandon Collins move to co-start at flanker.
Confused yet? Yeah, me too. Best I can figure, either the intern tasked with publishing the depth chart slotted the receivers in the wrong positions on the published depth chart, or Greg Davis and Bobby Kennedy have decided Jordan Shipley is Texas' top downfield option at the split end position. To the extent a lot of these guys are interchangeable (and they are), it doesn't actually matter too much. That said, if the depth chart is correct, there's something to discuss here. Among the questions it would raise:
- Has Malcolm Williams been struggling (or Jordan Shipley thriving) so much at split end to have convinced Davis the switch was necessary? Or might it be that Texas wants to get Ship-Williams-Kirk out there together, and Shipley's proving the better split end right now?
- John Chiles in the Quan Cosby role makes sense to me, but Malcolm Williams? Can this be right? And if it is, would Williams succeed in that role? Would it be a misappropriation of resources?
- Not that there's too much difference between what Texas does with the Sub-B and Flanker, and I'm certain these wideouts crosstrain and all, but... huh? We're moving Shipley and Kirkendoll-Collins, both of whom took the majority of their 2008 snaps from the Sub-B spot?
Again, if the depth chart is right and all this shuffling is correct, it's not exactly a cause for great concern. Just... confusing.
Anyone?
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Another question to add to your list
Is Shipley growing a moustache too?
Still a Blaine Irby fan
by patienthornsfan on Aug 28, 2009 1:11 AM CDT reply actions
Oh, and are you going to post a similar story for the selection of Vondrell as our starting RB over Fozzy?
Still a Blaine Irby fan
by patienthornsfan on Aug 28, 2009 1:21 AM CDT reply actions
Not surprised
I wrote in this year’s annual that I expected Vondrell to be the nominal starter, and certainly with Fozzy dealing with (yet another) minor injury, I’m not surprised that he is. There will be touches to be had for Fozzy if he can stay healthy, and both these guys will have ample opportunity to separate. I like both guys a lot, though, so my hope for Fozzy is as much about depth as anything.
--PB--
From my write up on the running backs in the annual:
“The nominal starter: Gone are the days of handing the ball 35 times to a Cedric Benson or Ricky Williams, but someone has to start and (when productive) receive 15-20 touches per game. Like last year, a trio of tailbacks will be competing to fill that role—junior Vondrell McGee, true sophomore Cody Johnson, and redshirt sophomore Foswhitt "Fozzy" Whittaker. While each possesses a unique set of strengths and weaknesses (discussed in greater detail below), my money is on McGee to get the first crack as the starter this fall. Whittaker’s explosiveness is tantalizing, but as med-head Will Carroll is fond of saying, "staying healthy is a skill" and so far Fozzy hasn’t proven durable. As for Johnson, the coaching staff repeatedly praised his spring work, but I’m of the opinion they’ll ultimately agree that extracting maximum value from the rumbling rusher lies in situational usage. That leaves McGee, who enters this fall underrated by fans after failing to wow anyone with two solid but unremarkable seasons. Not only should he benefit substantially from anticipated adjustments to the rushing scheme, but he’s proven durable, fumble-averse, and dependable as a blocker. Given more opportunities to hit defined holes with forward momentum, McGee can thrive and may surprise fans unimpressed with his first two seasons as a rusher.”
--PB--
Not impressed
I don’t think much about any of the three. This has to be the worst set of RBs I can remember. Whitaker might be good, but he can’t stay on the field long enough to show it. Johnson is slow and unproven in the passing game. McGee has had his chance. It’s looking to me like our top rusher will again be Colt McCoy. And that we’ll need a lot of plays to run on 2nd and 8.
So help me out. Tell me what these guys are really good at.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
Id put the 2000 squad as lower
Just off the top of my head. Ced and Ivan did fairly well in 2001 but they would be near as well.
Cody is really good at going forward. He lost 4 yards on 76 carries. Only 3 times did he get the ball and lose any yards whatsoever. Thats 0.052 yards per carry. Other top backs last year:
Back – Yards Lost/Rushing Attempts – Yards Lost Per Carry
Kendall Hunter – 83/348 – 0.24 ypc
Beanie Wells – 114/585 – 0.19 ypc
Javon Ringer – 256/843 – 0.30 ypc
Shonn Greene – 49/376 – 0.13 ypc
Cody wasnt just good as a goal line back, he was freaking amazing. Lets not forget his line against OU:
3 Rushes for 3 TDs. Most importantly, on none of those, was a McCoy sneak even considered. Hes the Henry Melton everyone hoped Henry Melton could be, and possibly more.
Cody’s presence alone makes this set of RBs not the worst in the past 10 years. McGee is servicable, and should do fine this year. Fozzy may even get healthy enough to play in a game, but Id consider that a bonus.
by BoddickerIsClutch on Aug 28, 2009 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions
I guess the big question is....
… can this year’s line open up the kind of holes he needs to be truly effective?
Still a Blaine Irby fan
by patienthornsfan on Aug 28, 2009 1:32 AM CDT up reply actions
Agreed
Vondrell (or whomever) has to be able to run from the shotgun, too. I think a healthy McGee will do just fine, but I’ll be watching the OL closely.
--PB--
They say he was dealing with injuries last year..so you just might be right if he's now 100% healthy.
"Football's so important in Texas. On the West Coast, it's a social. On the East Coast, it's a culture. Here, it's a religion."
-- Major Applewhite
I've always been a McGee fan
1. He doesn’t drop the ball
2. When he turns downhill he’s not afraid of contact
I never understood the love affair with Jamal Charles who loved to get out there and dance and turn the ball over. I hope McGee breaks out this year.
It was probably the world class speed and those 70+ yard runs. nt to a whills.
by BoddickerIsClutch on Aug 28, 2009 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions
His fumble problems have been waaaay overblown
They came at costly times and he deserves criticism for that, but he didn’t fumble that much throughout the season, relative to his carries, and he was dealing with an arm injury during that middle stretch. When our RB coach came back and he got to feeling better, he didn’t fumble (while Colt still did), and he saved our hides multiple times. I’m sorry, there’s just no way anyone can prefer McGee over Charles. People forget that the run-blocking in ‘07 was also WORSE than ’08. Charles just made it look a lot better by making people miss in the backfield, things our RB’s right now would not be able to do.
by TheElusiveShadow on Aug 28, 2009 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions
I was always under-wow'd with his performance
His final season, he finally showed some sparks of what everyone said he should be. If he had returned his senior year, he might have become great, but to me he was always a lot of promise and a lot less deliver.
His fumble problems have continued into the NFL
"From the waist down, Earl Campbell has the biggest legs I have ever seen on a running back." -John Madden
by run Bevo run on Aug 28, 2009 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Jamal Charles was an elite back at the college level
However, coming so quickly after arguably the greatest college back of all time (Note, I’d probably take Earl or Barry but Ricky is indisputably in the conversation) and one of the more prolific backs in school history (Benson) he suffered from a drastic misperception on the part of fans as to what an elite back looks like.
Unlike Ricky and Earl, Charles wasn’t a generational running back. Unlike Benson, he wasn’t an elite back who benefited from one of the best offensive lines in school history and some guy named Vince Young rushing for 1000+ yards, and an outsize amount of carries. He was merely one of the top ten or so players at his position during his junior year. And for most UT fans it appears that will never be enough.
proud to swim home
by learned hand on Aug 28, 2009 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Vondrell has....
…..spilled the blood.
--- All roads to the Big-XII Championship lead through OU/RRS. It's not just another game! We're all about championships here. ---
I would say we're more or less past that era.
If Fozzy could stay healthy and prove he can pick up blitz assignments, he might be the starter instead. Let me ask you: who do you think should be the #1 RB right now?
If McGee practiced the best (and is the most healthiest) than it is McGee.
"Football's so important in Texas. On the West Coast, it's a social. On the East Coast, it's a culture. Here, it's a religion."
-- Major Applewhite
Looks like they may have brought over DJ Monroe when Fozzy was injured.
This indicates they may have some plays specifically designed for Fozzy and wanted a speed back to keep the timing in practice. Maybe DJ has a shot…but I doubt he has trustworthy blocking skills to protect Colt at this point…not enough to get him on the 2-deep.
Since the insufferable references for every smallish multi-purpose back seem to be Bush and Harvin, it perhaps bears mentioning that those guys blocked like Adrian Peterson.
by burntorangehorn on Aug 28, 2009 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Cody Johnson.
Mack’s implications Cody reported out of condition are highly suspect. He is getting it done out there and gets those extra 2 or 3 yards.
--- All roads to the Big-XII Championship lead through OU/RRS. It's not just another game! We're all about championships here. ---
Did I miss something? I thought there was actually an article in which Brown specifically said that the team wasn’t really worried about Johnson’s weight at all.
by burntorangehorn on Aug 30, 2009 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions
This from the AA-S...
“Johnson arrived at camp out of shape — a clear indication that he hasn’t figured out that football season starts in your hometown during the offseason, not when you show up in Austin.”
http://www.statesman.com/opinion/content/sports/stories/longhorns/2009/09/03/0903golden.html
He also addressed in another piece but I’m not finding it.
--- All roads to the Big-XII Championship lead through OU/RRS. It's not just another game! We're all about championships here. ---
From Mack's presser...
…."Fozzy (Whittaker) got dinged up a little bit again and missed some work, so Vondrell (McGee) took over the starting tailback spot and Cody Johnson, who came in we felt like a little bit less than what we wanted in conditioning, he’s come on and had an outstanding camp, so right now, those two would be ready to go. Fozzy will be back Monday, and he’ll be ready to start working his way back in, but if we played today, Vondrell would be the starting tailback and step up.
http://www.mackbrown-texasfootball.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/082809aaa.html
--- All roads to the Big-XII Championship lead through OU/RRS. It's not just another game! We're all about championships here. ---
I think it is interesting . . . .
and agree with your suggestion that is probably designed to get Ship-Williams-Kirk on the field together. Chiles has apparently impressed during fall practice and made the biggest move up the depth chart.
I anyone?
Who will the receivers be if/when Texas sets up in the I-formation? Ship and Williams?
My conspiracy theory
From the practice reports I’ve seen, Williams still hasn’t fully adjusted to catching deep passes (and our “Deep” passes are usually only 20-30 yards). Maybe it’s timing, maybe it’s a matter of route running; third hand I don’t have a guess.
In the eight yard game that Cosby thrived in, Malcom Williams offers a tremendous increase in size and strength. Rather than utilizing him as a home run threat over the top, he may take a more (and I hate to use NFL comparisons because they’re rarely relevant) terrell owens role of a physical mismatch with sub par catching skills. Williams gets the ball in an aspect of the game where he has more comfort and is one broken tackle from a huge gain. Mccoy’s absurd accuracy on short and intermediate passes may help Williams too.
As you’ve been championing for years PB, Williams offers a physical toolset like no one else on the roster. That toolset has to be accounted for by DC’s, but only if greg davis can figure out a way to make him reliably catch the ball.
Equally likely: the intern responsible for the transcription didn’t have enough coffee.
proud to swim home
Subpar catching skills in the short game
do not equate well. A mishandled long ball hits the ground. A mishandled laser short pass deflects, gets tossed up, etc. and is intercepted. If anything catching skills are more important in the short game.
by ryanlionrah on Aug 28, 2009 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Sounds right
I’ve never understood the idea of primarily throwing deep passes to Malcolm (since the defense will just assume he is going deep, it is harder for Malcolm to get open). Short passes are easier to catch than long passes so Malcolm will probably drop fewer passes (though he will drop more passes than Quan). Once the defense gets acclimated to Malcolm predominantly catching short passes, it will be easier for Malcolm to go long.
Quan and Ship really got beat up in the short possession passing game last season. It is nice to see a couple of big guys (Malcolm and Dan Buckner) get involved in the short passing game.
Ship should be an awesome home run threat. His double move is a thing of beauty. He should stay healthier, too.
Honestly?
I think Kafka’s all over it! Keeping Ship out wide with the speed and route skills make him not only more frightening to DB’s than last year, but also keeps him safer in the long haul. I believe Ship will go wherever for the team, but I see this as not only a less physical demand on him, but also greater highlight opps for the NFL.
by orangetower on Aug 28, 2009 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions
Plus it adds pressure on the safeties to stay and not cheat up.
That should help both the short passing game and the running game as well. Teams that have more problems in middle coverage areas (cough ou cough) can’t afford to not guard the deep threat.
If the coaches use Shipley like Mike Adams – everywhere in the passing game, all returns – then he can wear out by season’s end.
This also would open the door for more receivers, esp. the younger group, getting more action. The more the better for 2010.
I remember Mike Adams being out there
But maybe i was too young to pay full attention….was he really a good all-around receiver? I see alot of people hate on Adams so why is that? Sorry for being off subject but its killing me!
Throw Ya Horns, Mayne
Dynamic route adjustment
I think the Colt-Ship mind meld will result in productive dynamic real time long route adjustments. An example would be Ship stopping short on the route while Colt throws the ball short on purpose. Nobody knows how they do this communication (it appears to occur outside of the 4 dimensions that we are familiar with).
Glad to see you back LH
How did the bar go?
"Stats are for losers, I like winning games"
". . .switzer is a cracked out bitch . . ."-osu poster
Thanks
Unfortunately, a family health emergency cropped up and I wasn’t able to take the Texas July exam.
It worked out okay though because I was already planning on a Tax LLM and taking the Illinois bar in Feb. Also on the agenda, avoiding frostbite and flashing horns to every tOSU fan I see on the street.
proud to swim home
by learned hand on Aug 29, 2009 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions
sorry to hear that
There are no jobs in Tejas anyway. Tax LLM is a good investment, especially if you can go somewhere good, like NYU.
"Stats are for losers, I like winning games"
". . .switzer is a cracked out bitch . . ."-osu poster
I see different personnel for different playcalls
Williams is listed as OR with Chiles. Reports have Chiles running excellent screens – likely he will be in the game if UT goes 3-wide on first down. On 3rd and long, look for Williams to be in the game to protect the pass on curls or the two-man game. Collins and Kirk will will likely both be in when the Horns go 4-wide and otherwise will rotate.
Paranoid planning
if you live and die by the pass, it might be worth keeping the details of the passing game from the opponent. Part of that effort might be to purposefully confuse the roster so the opposition can’t gleam any play information from it based on last years play calling.
Since last years play calling was very successful especially in the passing game I wouldn’t expect any major changes, maybe just modifications due to the one more year of experience for the returning players and to adjust for the talents of the new players.
So to maintain some element of surprise in the play calling it would be a big advantage to keep the opposition from knowing who is where.
If I was Mack Brown I call them all wide receivers period and say with all the different formations they don’t even have starters in the old sense of the word.
This is just one more little way of keeping the opponents off balance
We're guarding against the dark forces from Monroe? Whoa.
Everyone else will know after next week.
Do they even need a playbook for Monroe?
… or any of the other non conference games for that matter.
it wouldn’t be a bad idea to have some formations OU hadn’t seen
There are those - and I have been one -
who would like to see special plays and formations held back for OU. But it seldom happens, although Shipley’s usage last year might qualify except the loss of Irby really dictated some change.
Of more value sometimes are early season plays which teams much use practice time to guard against but are never run in the game.
I got a formation for OU but I can do that on one hand. heh
I actually thought maybe the Q pkg was something the team was waiting to roll out in the RRS. Never happened. It’d definitely be nice to see them keep a card or two hidden in the sleeve until needed.
by burntorangehorn on Aug 30, 2009 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions
What we're both nudging is offensive aggression.
That would include more misdirection and counters, simple reverses, half-back passes and the like. The overlying philosophy has seemed to be that we, Texas, don’t need much of that stuff: we execute what we do and that should be enough. Except when it isn’t.
I’ve always wanted to present ou with something special and different, something to counter their expectations and push their frustration limit. Such a ploy is as much psychological as physical on the field. When the D doesn’t know what to expect, that what is coming next is not merely a variant on earlier plays, they must play much looser to guard their territory.
GD and Mack has never been that devious that I’ve seen: they want to force breakdowns with their standard offense as opposed to creating them with imagination and fearless play calling. However, they can actually do both any time they want.
Williams was given ......
…… every opportunity to grab the starting post and consistently did less than required. Let’s just hope that all 8 will be given plenty of opportunities each and every game prior to Colorado. Let’s see who the “gamers” are on this WR crew. It is not as if any early opponent is a threat to win the game.
--- All roads to the Big-XII Championship lead through OU/RRS. It's not just another game! We're all about championships here. ---
Did you see if it...
was less effort or less production or both?
"From the waist down, Earl Campbell has the biggest legs I have ever seen on a running back." -John Madden
by run Bevo run on Aug 28, 2009 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions
Reading into it too much
When its all said and done, Williams, Collins, Kirk, and Chiles will play a fairly even number of snaps and Ship will play the most of the group. The “or” status on the depth chart typically just comes from the fact that one guy is the primary in one package, while the other guy is the primary in another package. Most likely, the formation we find ourselves in most often (4 or 5 wide) is not even denoted on the depth chart.
As far as Chiles goes, he’s definitely made some big strides since the end of last season. For one, he has shed some weight in hopes of regaining some of that elusiveness that we saw on his HS highlight reel. Secondly, he’s been running good routes, and lastly he’s been blocking very well. From all indications I’ve seen or read, Chiles has a sense of urgency about him given that he’s spent 2 years on the sidelines and he’s giving 100% on every play. The only negative I’ve seen regarding Malcolm is that he continues to have trouble dropping balls in practice.
I could see them wanting to put Shipley in there as a deep threat
He’s Colt’s favorite target, and if he’s open Colt’s going to hit him. Physically, he may not match up with a classic deep threat, but he may have the “intangibles”
They’re roommates, did you know?
I heard they once accidentally used each others toothbrush.
Then couldn’t get to sleep for hours due to a serious case of the giggles, so they ended up staying up late watching movies and eating ice cream in their pajamas.
by BoddickerIsClutch on Aug 28, 2009 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Just as long as they don’t injure each other during the pillow fight.
by burntorangehorn on Aug 28, 2009 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions
Shipley came to UT with speed, and plenty of it. Why is he seen as a guy without the ability to be a deep threat? It’s hard to imagine that he’s lost too much off what was perceived as his strength in those days, even in consideration of the injuries. More importantly, I think the guy has picked up a lot of on-field savvy that helps him get by defensive backs even when they’re faster than he is. If that’s not enough to be a deep threat at the college level, I don’t know what is.
by burntorangehorn on Aug 28, 2009 10:15 AM CDT reply actions
I agree Shipley has the requisite speed
I’m a big Shipley fan so I think he’d be fine in that role too. But I think people prefer tall, big receivers who are also pretty fast as that prototypical deep threat. A guy like Sweed and Roy Williams could not only outrun DB’s, they could out-jump them, and particularly in Roy’s case, out-muscle them too. That’s why we all wanted 6’4 Malcolm Williams to fill that role. I think we all started dreaming big when he made the catch against Missouri where he outjumped two Mizzou defenders.
by TheElusiveShadow on Aug 28, 2009 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Are we counting that out this year too soon?
I’m with you Shadow. Malcom nade some sic deep plays last year, but they seemed to come from different positions on the field as well and originated from different line-ups. I think he still get’s deep, but does so w/o double coverage as the safety’s can’t ignore Ship on the other side.
I saw GD interview where he said they also want to get Maclolm the ball on the move and in stride ala Quan.
I think GG and Malcolm could get real acquainted this year late in games.
by orangetower on Aug 28, 2009 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions
Speed, and plenty of it.
His senior year at Texas Relays, Jordan finished 2nd in his division in the 100m dash with a 10.85. Adrian Peterson ran the same day (different division), and after correcting for the difference in wind Jordan and Adrian’s corrected times are almost exactly the same, within one hundredth of a second of each other.
I may be remembering this wrong
But didn’t Malcolm Williams’ OTHER touchdown against Tech come on a short route, a slant, and maybe he was lined up in the slot? I think that may be the best way to get max production from him — big body, hard to deny him the ball.
Not all long plays have to be bombs. You can throw it 50 yards to score from midfield, or you can throw it 3 yards and run it 47 to score from the same spot.
Shipley’s health, as Kafka first mentions, is vital. He was beat to death by the end of ’08; Cosby was sidelined for most of the Tech game (and slowed at other times) . . . those inside pass plays take an awful physical toll on receivers, and the smaller the receiver the more damage a head-hunting safety can inflict.
Biggest issue, though, might be the roommate effect: Colt and Ship can mind link, and any little trip, slip or blip by the corner covering Shipley means the extra-point team is about to be needed.
we're reading waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much into this
Guys I saw Williams make some pretty awesome plays last year and on top of the physical ability he showed most of those plays did come from different spots on the field. If you can’t picture Jordan Shipley being a “deep” threat I think you might be trying to compare him to Sweed. Jordan has rockets for legs and plenty of just football know how to either, one) draw the safeties away with him down field so McCoy can throw to one of the other 40 good receivers they have or, two) actually hit Shipley on a double move. Either way this all works out, I have to believe that Greg Davis and Mack Brown know a little more about football than most of us. This stuff makes for great internet blog fodder but they have never been THIS deep at receiver. I’m more worried about why Eddie Jones and Ben Alexander aren’t the starters ( or at least aren’t named first on the depth chart).
I also think that Vondrell McGee will do just fine. The scouting report on him is that he has gotten much better at picking up the blitz since being left out of the Fiesta bowl due to that. And Cody Johnson is a monster. I don’t think I would trade any of these guys that DON"T fumble for a running back that runs 4.2 but puts the ball on the ground every third carry. How many game’s did Charles’s fumbles cost them? 3 maybe 4.and they were huge games at that. If it wasn’t him fumbling it was Benson getting in trouble. So these guys at least do the right things. Gotta respect that.
You can't spell COCKSUCKER without OU.
I could be wrong, but I think Shipley and Gideon have athleticism that people discount based on their race. No, I don’t think it’s an issue of discrimination. I think people are so unaccustomed to seeing athletic, non-black guys at defensive back and wide receiver that it simply doesn’t compute to see those two guys out there. Gideon’s not an all-world athlete, but he’s at least as athletic as Greg Brown or Marcus Griffin, and I certainly don’t remember criticism of their athleticism or physicality. Shipley, on the other hand, has all the athleticism one could need to be a deep threat at the college level.
by burntorangehorn on Aug 28, 2009 4:39 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
That said....
All questions regarding Scott Derry’s athleticism in the past were perfectly reasonable.
Some merit to this certainly.
But there was most definitely criticism of Marcus Griffin’s athleticism. And no Texas fans questioned the ridiculous athleticism of Brian Robison. Generally speaking, you’re probably right that there is some stereotyping that goes on, but I think most people recognize that Shipley is more or less as athletic as all the other receivers other than maybe Malcolm Williams. And there have certainly been a few times in which Gideon has looked overmatched by a running back or receiver’s athleticism.
It’s a case-by-case basis for the most part, but you’re probably right that white players have to prove their athleticism while it’s often assumed for black players.
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