Cinderella Horns Win 2010 NCAA Championship!
(Glendale, January 10) The impossible has happened.
Written off for dead at mid-season at a mediocre 4-4, the Texas Longhorns parlayed an unlikely sequence of events into an improbable championship run which ended tonight at the University of Phoenix Stadium with a 26-23 win over fellow Cinderella North Carolina State in the NCAA Division I Championship Game.
No one thought the Longhorns would be here after the Horns dropped back-to-back games at home against Iowa State and Baylor at the end of October. And though Texas never looked particularly impressive in winning any of its last four regular season games (who can forget needing a game-clinching 97-yard punt return against Oklahoma State?), an improbable series of events down the stretch in the Big 12 South allowed Texas to win the division at 5-3 in a multi-team tiebreaker.
After defeating Nebraska yet again in the Big 12 Championship Game, Texas qualified for the NCAA playoffs as Big 12 Champion. Texas knocked off an arrest and suspension-plagued top-seeded Oregon team in the first round and then took out fourth-seeded TCU in the national semis 6-3 in a defensive struggle for the ages.
Meanwhile, North Carolina State did some of the Horns' dirty work for them, knocking off second-seed Alabama and third-seed PU to set up the most unlikely of championship games.
If the NCAA had a Division I football playoff (at least any playoff system with at least eight teams), the scenario I described would be possible. Unlikely, but possible.
I point this out not to say that the Longhorns would still have hope but for the lack of a playoff system but rather to get across the point, to playoff advocates and foes alike, that a team as mediocre as Texas has proven to be would still have a chance at being National Champions if we had a playoff. (And for those who are unable nowadays to type the word "Texas" without simultaneously unleashing a load of profanities, please feel free to substitute "Florida" or "Clemson" or "Syracuse" if it makes you feel any better.)
Would it be a Good Thing for college football to allow so many teams to still have hope, no matter how faint, of winning a championship this late into the season, or would it be a Bad Thing to allows teams which have displayed mediocrity over much of a season to still have a chance at being awarded with the crystal football in two months? The concept of a four-loss college football champion seems sacrilegious. Yet an 9-7 Arizona Cardinals team came within seconds of conquering Evil and winning the Super Bowl a couple of years ago, and the cries of outrage at such mediocrity being awarded were few and far between. Similarly, an 83-win St. Louis Cardinals team won the World Series in 2006, and only a few old guys sipping on their Ovaltine seemed to be bothered by this.
Would it be a Good Thing for a program like Texas to still have a national championship out there as a possible target, or would it be a Bad Thing to allow teams and coaches to delude themselves into playing for something almost certainly unobtainable this season when building for the seasons beyond would be the smarter move?
So what say you, playoff advocates? Viva mediocrity? And what say you, playoff foes? Give up all hope?
(The specific scenario is predicated on my belief, which I haven't bothered to prove or disprove one way or another, that, even with three conference losses, Texas is still mathematically alive in the Big 12 South, much in the same way that a baseball team 15 games out of first on Labor Day hasn't been officially eliminated yet. If we are in fact already eliminated, well, um, pretend that we're not.)
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How many 16 seeds have won the NCAA Basketball Tournament?
I vote for playoffs.
I get what you're saying...
…but a couple of points:
(1) The relative strength of an 8th seeded Texas/Florida/Clemson in an eight-team playoff as I described is much, much greater than that of a 16-seed in basketball. The better example would be, in a 16-team NCAA playoffs, the Sun Belt Champion winning.
(2) It’d only take three wins in football with an eight-game playoff. A 16 beating a 1 in basketball for the first time ever would still have five games in front of it.
Don't let the bastards get you down. Even the burnt orange ones.
by Hopkins Horn on Nov 4, 2010 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions
The better example would be, in a 16-team NCAA playoffs, the Sun Belt Champion winning.
Which has also never happened.
An 8th seed (Nova) is the lowest to ever win the tourney, and that’s happened just once.
8 seed = 29-32
There are are 4 number 1s and 2s and 8s so the 8th seeds are really the 29th, 30th 31st and 32nd.
There are about 350 D1 basketball schools and 120 D1A football so an 8th seed in football is (if my math is right) the same as the 23/24 seed in basketball or the worst 5 seed/best 6 seed in the current basketball tourney. This isn’t exactly right though because it doesn’t take into account auto bids.
The better comparison
is the NFL playoffs. A very good analogy would be the Pittsburgh Steelers in 2005, who were 7-5 after a three week losing streak skid. They won out, snuck into the playoffs as the 6th and lowest seed in the AFC, but still managed to win it all, defeating the Seahawks in Super Bowl XL.
The next year the fifth seeded Giants managed a huge upset over the Patriots.
Are you saying we should have 6 seed NCAA playoffs?
I fail to see how that would make anyone happier than they are now. Statistics are thrown out that the BCS has a country-wide approval rating of 10%
What do you think the country-wide percent would be if only enough teams to fill a 1-6 seed bracket were able to enjoy a post season?
You're gonna strongly agree with some of what I say, and you'll strongly disagree with some of what I say. Either way, I don't give a d@#n. I'm just here to talk sports.
No.
I am saying that the NFL playoffs is a better comparison to a hypothetical College Football playoffs than is a College Basketball Playoffs. This is because CFB has a lot more in common (i.e., the shape of the ball, the scoring system) with the NFL than it does with any form of basketball.
In any event, the NFL has a 12 team playoffs, but because the NFL divided into only two conferences, the AFC and NFC, each conference seeds 1-6. If I had my druthers, we would go to 32 team FBS playoff, but I’ve been shouted down enough to rarely suggest that outright.
we might win it all in a playoff
if we played every playoff game away from home
by trueorangeblood on Nov 4, 2010 11:17 AM CDT reply actions
After going undefeated in the 2011 regular season and winning the Big 12-2 Title,
The Texas Longhorns got bounced in the first round of the NCAA Playoffs by 16 seed Arkansas after having lost their QB Gilbert in the final game of the regular season to a nagging injury that was re-aggravated and just didn’t have enough time to heal. Arkansas took advantage of Garrett’s misfortune by throwing waves of pressure at an untested Case McCoy all night. The Texas defense did all they could by holding the Razorbacks to 13 points, but when Case and Crew can only muster two field goals and 137 total yards of offense it’s pretty hard to beat anyone. Unfortunately for everyone that bleeds Burnt Orange, the favorite Texas Longhorns are gonna be watching the rest of the playoffs rooting for whoever plays against OU and wondering…“What if?”
You're gonna strongly agree with some of what I say, and you'll strongly disagree with some of what I say. Either way, I don't give a d@#n. I'm just here to talk sports.
or 8 seed Arkie, whatever works ;)
You're gonna strongly agree with some of what I say, and you'll strongly disagree with some of what I say. Either way, I don't give a d@#n. I'm just here to talk sports.
I'll take any season like you mentioned above...
so long as it offers a freaking conclusive end to the season. The BCS fails in this aspect miserably. Texas was no more deserving than Cincy last year. Both AQ conferences, both fairly weak schedules. Both teams ran the table. Texas got in on pedigree alone and nothing more. And before someone replies with “yeah, but Cincy got worked by FL.” Um, they did not have anything to play for. A glorified exhibition doesn’t mean anything. Matter of fact, I am sure if the Sugar Bowl could have, it would have left Cincy out in the cold for good. Coach Kelly was leaving and the kids were simply down.
I don’t know what it will take to give those “less deserving” their due. Boise just wins. I loathe their turf, simply because they do not need it any longer. It was a gimmick in the beginning, bu they are an accomplished program and should join the big boys club in that regard. I pray for the SEC East winner this year to knock off the winner from the West.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Not really feeling the playoff debate today
but I will say this: if Hopkins Horn was standing in this room, I would give him a notably awkward, very extended hug.
This is one of many dynamics that playoff advocates, blinded by what they see as some sort of manifest-sports-destiny, are not really considering. Viva mediocrity indeed.
But I'm even putting some garnish on it for you today!

Don't let the bastards get you down. Even the burnt orange ones.
by Hopkins Horn on Nov 4, 2010 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Mmmmm... raw meat.
Anyone ever try raw ostrich? Freakin unbelievable.
by BrooklynHorn on Nov 4, 2010 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions
I like steak tartare. A lot.
Never ask a man if he's from Texas. If he is, he'll tell you soon enough. If he's not, don't embarrass him.
If you have not, go grab your copy of "Death to the BCS."
If anyone still could supprt the BCS after reading it, then one is more concerned with their myopic views of how things ought to be rather than what is just and fair to universities across the nation.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
never really much cared for fairness
isn’t “fairness” patently unAmerican? ;)
by BrooklynHorn on Nov 4, 2010 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Wait...
So you’re saying that everyone who doesn’t agree with you is myopic? Isn’t that statement the definition of myopia? Believing that there’s only one right way to look at something (i.e., narrowmindedness)?
I have not read the book, but I have read reviews of it (and their arguments are the same ones everyone always has) and I can say that I disagree with them. Not because they’re “wrong” but because we have different values that we place on certain things surrounding college football. Their values are no less right or wrong than mine, but their different values lead them (and you) to different conclusions.
So you’re saying that everyone who doesn’t agree with you is myopic? Isn’t that statement the definition of myopia? Believing that there’s only one right way to look at something (i.e., narrowmindedness)? . . . Not because they’re "wrong" but because we have different values that we place on certain things surrounding college football.
Yeah, BrooklynHorn Mulliganville, what he said! :)
Don't let the bastards get you down. Even the burnt orange ones.
by Hopkins Horn on Nov 4, 2010 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Awww, can't take a joke? :)
Don't let the bastards get you down. Even the burnt orange ones.
by Hopkins Horn on Nov 4, 2010 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions
winning friends and influencing people again Hopkins?
proud to swim home
by learned hand on Nov 4, 2010 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions
It's like a conspiracy against me, man!!!
Don't let the bastards get you down. Even the burnt orange ones.
by Hopkins Horn on Nov 4, 2010 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions
If the season ended today...
Boise would go to the Humanitarian Bowl, and Va Tech would be in the Fiesta facing the Big 12 champ.
Why you ask?
Because the Sugar Bowl will take the Big 10 runner up to face Bama.
TCU would go to the Rose and face the Big 10 champ.
The Orange Bowl would take the ACC champ and the Big 12 loser from the title game.
So, VaTech gets its share of the big money, after losing to Boise on a neutral field, and will be lucky to be ranked in the top 15 at the time.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Doesn't a Top 4 ranking in the BCS guarantee a BCS bowl...
…or does that not apply to the second of two non-AQ schools in the top four?
Don't let the bastards get you down. Even the burnt orange ones.
by Hopkins Horn on Nov 4, 2010 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Only one non-AQ gets taken...
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Only one non-AQ gets taken "automatically"
I assume that’s what you meant, as last year’s Fiesta shows two non-AQs can still make the BCS.
Don't let the bastards get you down. Even the burnt orange ones.
by Hopkins Horn on Nov 4, 2010 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Correct...only one is guaranteed a spot.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Moreover...
if Boise and TCU/UTAH are each in the top 4, only one will be taken for a BCS bowl. I’d lay $1000 on it right now.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Forgot the Fiesta...
BIg 12 winner vs. Big East champ, otherwise known as the non top 25 rep.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions
It's early on Kauai...where's the delete button.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
this is an ongoing theme
This idea that I have a dismissive attitude toward certain arguments.
And truthfully, I am dismissive toward certain arguments, because while many viewpoints have a credible validity,the same cannot be said for all arguments.
I’m actually bored to death by people who see the world exactly as I do, for the selfish reason that I can’t learn anything from them, which leads someone like myself, someone with an overly-pedantic personality, to spend a lot of time in foreign cultures, desperately (and perhaps naively) trying to culture shock myself in order that I may maximize the visible and usable intellectual reference points, through which I can refine my mental frame-work.
But nine out of ten people who will disagree with something that I’ve said will do so in a useless manner (and that does not make me unique, as 9 of 10 who disagree with you will do the same). They will disagree because either they have no intellectual will beyond latching on to one viewpoint given to them by some source that had the simple luxury of having gotten to them first, or they will disagree because they have a direct emotional agenda, or they will disagree simply because their IQ’s are deficient and ill-equipped for such debate.
The gems are those that disagree with good meaning and good insight, because they will either illuminate a new reference point, or will at least allow for a sharpening or refining of my own. And I, like so many, am the type who values only those who directly and skillfully challenge my viewpoints. The problem is that those gems are rare.
And face to face, the giveaways are obvious. A person’s expressions and body-language, or the look in his eyes as he “listens” to my position, or a transparent emotional urgency can all betray someone’s inability to enlighten. But even online, one can easily pick up on certain cues: things like responding not directly to a post, but instead shoe-horning an agenda, or the odd and seemingly irrelevant manner in which a person chooses to interpret a certain post, or what insignificant part of it he or she highlights.
I come across as arrogant and dismissive particularly when I’m being fed the same tired arguments that our culture has over-simplified and codified and packaged as stock arguments (things like “it should be settled on the field”), most of which are groupthink and superficial. I’m annoyed in those moments because I want people to be able to elevate their discourse to the level that I can actually learn something from them, but most don’t. Instead I get stock arguments, and my arrogance in those instances is a sublimation of my disappointment that I’m not being fed a good argument today… and I’m f#cking hungry,
Apologies to everyone for the long, hijacking post.
No apologies needed...
I appreciate your loquaciousness.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions
agreed
which is why playoff debates should be anchored by what we believe to be valuable about the sport and what we want the sport to be able to do for us culturally. Instead, most debate-participants want to discuss the superficial end-game, without establishing the substance behind it.
What’s frustrating is that most seem to lose interest in the argument when I move toward those issues, as if I’m some impractical romantic.
by BrooklynHorn on Nov 4, 2010 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions
I do not think people lose interest because you are an impractical romantic.
Once both speakers recognize that your values are so alien to one-another, the discussion is uninteresting for the reason that you are “talking past” one another. If you value something that has no application to a playoff system, and they value something that has no application under the current regime, then you’re just arguing about whether your rock is heavier than their string is long. That is unproductive, i.e. uninteresting, although I think it is very helpful to establish these distinct values early on to avoid the equally frustrating eventuality where two people argue until they are red in the face, only to realize that the disagreement is about something trivial, like vocabulary.
The main reason people couch debates about football playoffs in terms of “fairness” is because the general rule is that most people value fairness, therefore the disagreement must be about results rather than inputs, because surely the other guy isn’t unfair by default. I think it is similar to the “Think of the children!” plea.
by Skin Patrol on Nov 4, 2010 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Sometimes, but not always
I’ve wasted a lot of time trying to argue about the peripherals of the game, that it remain a game we associate with Autumn (when class begins in September and the leaves begin to fall) and not Winter, because football serves as a seasonal landmark. I’ve argued that a Winter tournament will shift television interests and bring the casual fan onboard (which doesn’t happen as much now, because the casual fan doesn’t want to follow along for 4 months, whereas many people wait and casually tune in to March madness or the NFL playoffs confident that they haven’t really missed anything), and such shifts in “target demographics” will culturally affect the game as it will be marketed differently. And so on.
My contention is that these nuances will affect every college football fan, the degree to which depends on ones ideals and values, but it will affect everyone. And yet the sense I get from playoff advocates on most occasions is that they believe, genuinely, that the advent of a playoff will keep football as we know it entirely intact (culturally), its just that we will now have a fair and just champion. And thus, my arguments seem, to them, irrelevant.
It is happening, you old impractical romantic.
This is a great stopping point for us, because you’ve identified values that just don’t compute with me. I am not that worried about keeping the college football culture intact for the reason that I don’t watch it for its unchanging culture, but because I like watching adults hit each other. Even if I internalize the import of culture, even that wouldn’t clearly militate towards maintaining the status quo, since plenty of massive overhauls of CFB culture (television) have had the bad (TV timeouts) along with the good (GAMEDAY!!!) with the latter winning by unanimous decision. In other words, I am not afraid that the game will become more accessible, that more casual fans will get on board, or that it will be marketed differently than the game that captured my passion. These things might all have unintended consequences but probably will net FTW.
I also don’t think playoff advocates, at least this one, believe that the game will remain entirely intact (culturally) but only with a fair and just champion. I think many of us believe that a playoff system will radically change the culture of the game, but for the better, and along the way we will get a fair(er) and just(er) champion (if these terms mean anything at all, which they might not and, anyways, this component of the argument is not at all central or necessary to at least one playoff advocate).
I'd recommend you read the book...
and not rely on some reviews to bullet point it for you. Contrary to popular opinion, the BCS does not make college football more interesting. Exposure does. There are more games than ever before. Oregon’s facilities are accessible at the click of a mouse for a prospect. In year’s past, recruiting centered around the state where the university was located. Now, those schools that are “less deserving” are attracting great athletes that can compete with anyone nationwide.
If Oregon, Auburn, TCU, and Boise remain undefeated this season, anointing two of them to play for a title is simply unfair. Who the hell is the BCS and their computer models, of which 5/6 will not divulge their formula used to calculate which team is “more worthy” of a higher ranking, to determine the two most deserving teams? Nobody wants a March Madness in college football. However, it cannot be denied that the BCS is failing at its overall objective.
If every game mattered (which is not true, signed the 2008 Texas Longhorns), then Alabama would not be mentioned at this point. There is blatant politicking for them already, setting the stage if you will for voters to “do the right thing.”
Call me myopic for wishing for fairness in college football, I’ll proudly wear that label.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions
You'll never get rid of the unfairness
People will still complain just as much; the only difference is that they’ll be complaining about other aspects of the system. There is no good or fair system for choosing the champion of a league with 120 teams playing 12 games a year. Someone will always have the potential to be screwed over.
GOURANGA!
But, you can get rid of subjectivity surrounding the top 8-16 teams in the nation.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Given college football's number of teams and short shedule, you can't remove subjectivity
You can kick it down the road a bit and end up with the number 9 or 17 team complaining, but there’s still subjectivity.
Also, why is subjectivity a bad thing? College football is just as likely to declare the best team its champion as any other sport. The NCAA basketball champion isn’t the best team, it’s the team that won the tournament. There’s a high correlation between winning and being the best, but they aren’t the same. There is simply no objective way to determine which team is the best (I’d take hockey’s long regular season with 4 best of 7 playoff rounds as the closest, but even it doesn’t always result in the best team winning it all).
The BCS isn’t perfect, but there’s no magic bullet that will solve its problems and usher in a new era of objective fairness.
GOURANGA!
I wonder...
how is college football right, while every other sport is somehow wrong in determining its champion? Nationwide, the BCS approval rating is 10%. It makes Congress look good.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions
No one is arguing that the BCS is right and that everyone else is wrong
No system is perfect. The BCS is a decent fit in light of college football’s traditions and the fact that no other sport shares its scheduling disadvantages. It certainly could be improved, but no system can make college football fair or objective.
Until you point out a league with 120 teams with little parity playing 12 games each, comparing college football to another sport is pointless.
GOURANGA!
Look outside the United States
where the most popular sports are soccer, formula 1, tennis, golf, etc. In none of those sports do the winners of one event, on one date in time, have the benefit of proclaiming themselves champions of the entire year.
Playoffs are a mostly American phenomenon.
Perhaps if anointing were subjective regarding something more imperative...
People would see the unjust aspects of this system. I am simply appalled that we can look at a team, like Auburn in 2004 and simply tell them, “nice season…but sorry, we THINK you are not good enough.”
We will move to a playoff one day…there is too much money involved for it not to be enacted.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions
If you took the top 8 in 2004
you’d take 9-2 Georgia and tell 11-0 Boise state “nice season . . . but sorry, we we THINK you are not good enough.” If you moved it to 16, you’d take 8-3 Miami while leaving out 9-2 Wisconsin and five other three loss teams.
Plenty of people Boise or Madison would have been appalled by this too.
GOURANGA!
But for every Auburn 04
I can counter with a NE Patriots 08.
Consider that the rest of the world loves tournaments, but a tournament is not the same thing as a play-off. Tennis and golf are built around tournaments, and soccer has some enthralling tournaments. Those events generate excitement, but do not reward empty teams that win them by entrenching that year’s entire cultural significance within them, nor do they diminish an excellent team’s greatness by stripping them of glory simply because they slipped up on the wrong day.
But a playoff is not a tournament; it is something different. It’s in the very language; it connotes this idea that we haven’t established a team onto whom we want our glory to be bestowed, so we need to “play it out.” And the winner of this tournament is now going to be retro-fitted as the best team that season.
Which is where the Patriots come in. We should all absolutely be celebrating the fact that, after many decades of coming close, a team finally accomplished a 16-0 record. But who remembers this feat? No one. People barely remember it now, but a generation from now it will be lost almost entirely. Instead, a very mediocre Giants team gets the record book, and awkwardly, they are upon whom we have heaped all of 2008’s glory.
There are no Bush-push games in pro-football. No Missouri 5th downs. No Les Miles overtime thrillers. There are very few, if any at all, regular season NFL games we hoist as being crucial in making a team into the gloryful champion we’ve crowned. Personally I can’t remember any meaningful October games in my entire NFL-watching life. Sure we watch them, and the league profits from them, but they don’t shape the memories and the cultural relevance of that season. College football spreads the meaning from late-summer to early winter, and we all have great memories of everything in between.
And as LongCat says, we have a 120 team league, and one in which the participants cannot all play each other, which categorically precludes any “fair” method of determining a champion. So if we know we can’t accomplish that ideal, then let’s focus on the ideals we can affect, such as elongating the relevance of the game throughout a 5-month span, and not confining it almost entirely to a one-month Winter madfest. I value the game itself over who becomes crowned champion.
My suspician is that this is the way the world outside of the US sees it as well (largely). A tournament is exciting, and so we’re going to schedule them, by all means. But there is too much risk in placing the weight of history and glory upon only your tournament winner, when rationally we tend to sense that the team that dominated the entire year, on aggregate, is the team really worth remembering from that campaign.
Re:
There are no Bush-push games in pro-football. No Missouri 5th downs. No Les Miles overtime thrillers. There are very few, if any at all, regular season NFL games we hoist as being crucial in making a team into the gloryful champion we’ve crowned. Personally I can’t remember any meaningful October games in my entire NFL-watching life. Sure we watch them, and the league profits from them, but they don’t shape the memories and the cultural relevance of that season. College football spreads the meaning from late-summer to early winter, and we all have great memories of everything in between.
You have lost me here. If what you value in the sport are these memorable, meaningful CFB moments that “shape [your] memories and the cultural relevance of that season” then isn’t it at least POSSIBLE that a playoff system maximizes these moments? For every 2008 Giants victory (which, incidentally, while you were lamenting it, the rest of the country was celebrating as a truly iconic moment in sports when the underdog done got after those evil cheaters) there are countless celebrated playoff moments where the better team really did win, and everyone loved that moment, too.
But that moment was necessarily confined to the first week in February
College football’s relevance is more organic. The things that shape a season unfold at their own pace and as naturally as is possible with this format. The NFL has guaranteed we place all of the cultural weight on whatever game ends up being played in late January or early February, whether the game, or its participants, are worthy or not.
Its predictable. Its like painting by numbers, like a Hollywood movie, which is perhaps why this society prefers it. But its empty.
Here is the difference between the NFL and college...
With 32 teams, the NFL sends 37.5% of its teams to the post-season. Even with a 16 team playoff, which I am leaning towards supporting over a 12 teamer, it would send 13.3% of its teams into the post-season. The reasoning, the NFL does not send multiple undefeated teams into the post-season, college football routinely has several unbeatens, which coincidentally, just happens to be occurring with a greater frequency since the exposure of college football is ever increasing. Simply selecting two, or worse, just having one undefeated team and staring at 5 one-lossers to choose from and anoint as the lottery winner to complete the partnership of the MNC dance, is so unjust it is comical.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Those of us who spent years of our lives writing about the National Football League year-round might be expected to disagree that meaningful NFL moments are confined to a week in February, or that the only cultural weight of the sport ends up in late January or early February (the draft, by way of example, is of some interest culturally).
It is strange to hear you lament the “predictable” (is this bad? College Football games are played, predictably, on Saturdays*) NFL through the example of the 2008 Giants, who were huge underdogs that few outside of New York predicted could upset the mighty Patriots, who themselves had managed an unpredictable upset over the St. Louis Rams just a few years prior.
This all might be empty, but it will be empty for reasons besides that society prefers Hollywood movies. I have interpreted your last two sentences as forgivable cheap-shots of a sport I love.
I have to go, but
if you think placing all of the cultural weight on one week of the season so that it can be packaged and sold to the public (in other words, “don’t worry, John Q Citizen, you don’t have to watch the whole season, we’ll tell you when the most important moment is going to be, and you can simply tune in to that”) is the same as placing college games on Saturdays than you are either poking fun at me or grossly misinterpreting my argument.
I prefer to enjoy the complex nuances of the season, which cannot occur in the NFL in the NBA. Those sports are packaged and that package is for lazier people, in my opinion, which the typical person is. Lowest Common Denominator, all that BS, blah blah blah. College football makes you tune in every week, otherwise you may miss the moments that serve as a framework for the narrative of the season.
And by the way, those of us in New york were as surpised as anyone that the Giants won that Super Bowl. THat season in no way reflected Texas’ 2005 campaign, which had a sense of greatness about its entirety. New Yorkers looked at each other in sudden surprise, “we have an NFL Champion? Who knew?” And then we threw an unexpected and awkward parade, which had no long, emotional build up to it.
If I don’t respond again, its because I’m late for an appointment. Damn you Hopkins Horn!
But...we live in America.
And this is American college football. Setting that aside, how could one not be intrigued by Butler this past March? In college football, they get nothing. In basketball, they beat VERY good teams and pushed Duke to the brink. But, in the end, the best team won. I just thankful Butler had a chance. Others deserve the same opportunity.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions
It sounds like you are anti-BCS, here.
In none of those sports do the winners of one event, on one date in time, have the benefit of proclaiming themselves champions of the entire year.
Also, doesn’t the World Cup end in a championship game?
Do you think maybe the reason Formula 1, tennis, and golf have evolved different methods of evaluating the participants relative to one another is related to the fact that those sports, unlike College Football, involve individual competition?
I addressed the soccer tournament argument just above
Even better than the World Cup is the Champion’s League tournament. But when comparing tournaments and “champions” in soccer you have to compare apples to apples. The FA cup is the all-England tournament, while those teams still compete in a “League” which is a round-robin. Unequivocally, in all cases, the winner of the League is considered the best in England, while the FA cup is considered mostly just fun and exciting, and it needs to be noted that the two events have nothing to do with one another (unlike our playoffs and regular season).
I would maintain that if we had both an International round-robin league, and a World Cup, that the winners would be treated the same as in England respectively. The Cup might be enthralling, but the winner of the League would be whom we recognize as the greatest soccer nation on Earth,
As per the BCS, I am against it, if only slightly. I preferred the old system of voting, in which there were no pretensions of objectivity. We treated it more like the Oscars. As a rebellion against that subjectivity, we could simply choose to value the season more than the champion. But the BCS is inching toward a facade of objectivity, which a playoff would complete. I think that when you have a facade of objectivity in determining a champion, in a league that has 120 teams all of whom don’t play each other, you’re shoe-horning an ideal, and the whole enterprise becomes specious and disingenuous.
My ideal scenario would involve stripping Divsion 1 down to 64 teams, at most. Then we can probably find more common ground on both sides of this debate.
My fault
I got to your above post only after I’d written this one. I don’t know enough about soccer to respond.
Regarding your preferential treatment of the prior system, its downfall came in part, and I’m not sure this is much different than meaningful criticisms of the Academy throughout its history, because without the “pretentions of objectivity” it was subject to the worst of abuses: that it was either 1) totally ineffective even for its professed purpose or, worse, 2) simply corrupt.
We can criticize the BCS together, but I don’t think the introduction of computers to increase the “pretension of objectivity,” no matter how limp-wristed the attempt, was a net loss considering the alternative: More rather than less emphasis on the rankings by Coaches who do not watch games, are beholden to their former employers, can’t even keep tracks of the scores, and are therefore unqualified to opine on the subject.
You celebrate the old system because it was the farthest thing from the current “facade of objectivity” but even that isn’t true; the old system was replaced NOT because it didn’t take its job seriously, but because it did, but simply sucked at it. The reason the old system failed is precisely because it had merely a “facade” of objectivity. The BCS was an abortive attempt to fix, rather than hid, the facade. At least we tried.
If you want to see if the BCS is corrupt...
Watch what happens this season if the following plays out.
If Bama beats Auburn, Oregon goes undefeated, Boise goes undefeated, and TCU or Utah go undefeated, The Sugar Bowl will take the Big 10 runner up over an undefeated Boise who will be ranked ahead of the Big 10 runner-up.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions
How does that show corruption?
The Sugar Bowl has no relevance to the championship. The non championship BCS games exist to give fans an interesting match-up between good teams. If the fans would enjoy watching the Big 10 runner-up, the Sugar Bowl has fulfilled its job.
GOURANGA!
$$$
Boise would be more deserving in this instance.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions
And that is corrupt how?
Does the game exist to provide a venue for the team most deserving of playing the SEC champion or the team that people would most enjoy watching play the SEC champion?
GOURANGA!
You don't think the Orange Bowl is corrupt?
Because it is also unwatched in virtue of the fact that it selects participants in a way that minimizes interest in the game.
I'll accept that the Orange Bowl has a crappy conference tie in, but how does that make it corrupt?
The Armed Forces Bowl selects teams in a way that minimizes interest in the game, so is it corrupt too?
GOURANGA!
And it is unfair as demonstrated here...
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Here...
http://www.youtube.com/user/playoffpac#p/a/u/2/W6hja5g5Txg
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions
so anything that is unfair is therefore corrupt?
Any why is the Armed Forces Bowl not equally corrupt?
GOURANGA!
watch the vid...then tell me you don't think it's corrupt.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions
The video doesn't show corruption
It shows a group comprising most of the valuable teams in college football agreeing to play each other. It is no more corrupt than the Big 10 keeping their money to themselves and not cutting checks to the MAC. At no point does the BCS take money from others; it merely distributes it to its members in accordance with its contracts. If the WAC doesn’t like this, it’s free to create its own bowl system.
Do you think the idea of conferences is corrupt?
GOURANGA!
No regarding conferences...
I think that it is corrupt in the sense that I agree that it is fixed…
5 out of 6 computer formulas are not verified for accuracy since their formula is not known. In essence, they could manipulate them and nobody would know any differently.
This just in, the Utah AG met with the Justice Department this week. I hope like hell they get involved and fix this atrocity of a system.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions
The video wasn't about that; it was all revenue distribution
As for the formulae, is there any evidence that they might be manipulated other than the fact that they could be? I have no proof that Boise isn’t paying off refs, so should I assume they’re corrupt also?
GOURANGA!
It is my opinion that the BCS is a good ole boy network...
which wants to keep the “little” guys down. These little guys routinely kick the ass of the bigger brother. You can think otherwise if you wish.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions
To find corruption...
you have to go where the money is…that is why the Armed Forces bowl doesn’t matter. No $$$ to fight over.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions
The Armed Forces Bowl gives 100% of its money to just a few conferences, regardless of their on-field performance
Even if a Big 10 team beats Army, the Big 10 gets no money. According to the video, that’s corruption.
GOURANGA!
The $$$ there are a pittance compared to the BCS
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions
It's the exact same
The Armed Forces Bowl distributes money without regard to on field performance; it is solely about the agreement reached by the respective conferences. The only difference is that the Sugar Bowl gets better teams. They are functionally the same.
GOURANGA!
Armed Forces pays out $600,000 per team
now…those teams have to buy X amount of tickets. More than 70% of all CFB teams lost money on their bowl games last year.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions
How much of that $600,000 per team is based on the on-field performance of the Big 10?
That’s the complaint lodged in the video.
GOURANGA!
I see you working...
and the functionality of the bowls is a bit different. The BCS could choose to take Boise OR BIg 10 runner up…the Armed Forces Bowl, like all other lower tier bowls, is locked into specifics regarding selections. The BCS bowls are not strangled in the same manner.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Both take the most profitable they can get
If the armed forces bowl had the option to get Army or Alabama, they would take Alabama. The BCS’s only sin is that they have a better contract.
GOURANGA!
But, now you are abandoning the on field aspects...
The Big 10 runner up had a better season than Boise St.? Really? Sadly, it’s not quantifiable.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Why does that make it not corrupt?
The purpose of the any bowl is to create an enjoyable game that people want to watch. The Armed Forces Bowl takes the team people most want to see and so does the Sugar Bowl.
GOURANGA!
It's corrupt in the sense...
that the Sugar Bowl, by Bill Hancock’s own admission, is a charity of sorts…yes, he said that. A charity that gave $0.00 to Katrina relief efforts, yet whose director pockets about $600,000 annually for running one game. This is one of the arguments for the BCS and the bowl system…that they are charitable contributors. Oh really? Fail.
It’s corrupt in the sense that Boise St. will be passed over sitting in the BCS top 5 while Va Tech, whom they beat, and sitting outside the top15, will enjoy the $$$ from the Cartel’s payout. The system is nothing more than a stranglehold by the Big 6 AQ’s and their insatiable desire to keep all of the money for themselves, all the while denying the teams which they deem “unworthy,” yet those teams routinely smack their AQ representatives in their beloved BCS exhibitions.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not sure you really grasp the difference between a charity and a non-profit
As a threshold matter, any argument an undefeated Boise would still be left out of the BCS entirely died last season.
So the game is corrupt because Boise won’t get free money? The Sugar Bowl is an exhibition; it has no bearing on the championship. It wants to maximize its revenue and has no legal requirement of altruism.
How is the non-championship BCS any different from any other bowl that has a conference tie-in? The Pinstripe Bowl won’t share its fabulous riches with the WAC, so should it be brought down too?
You can’t have a bowl system at all without some system for selecting teams.
GOURANGA!
Are you actually defending the argument that
Bill Hancock stated, “they are charities” and yet they do not provide in that capacity?
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Assuming he even said it (google doesn't turn anything up) how much money does the BCS give to schools?
If I donate money to UT and not Katrina survivors, it’s a charitable contribution. If the BCS does it, it’s evil. Got it.
GOURANGA!
It's simply a very bad PR move to proclaim them charitable...
BCS Bowls all claim to be ‘501©(3)’ public charities—the same tax designation as the American Red Cross—to make their revenues tax-exempt and obtain other taxpayer-funded benefit ~ PlayoffPAC
The complaint lists significant tax irregularities discovered through a review of over 2,300 pages of tax records and public documents. The complaint was submitted to the IRS on Playoff PAC’s behalf by Marcus S. Owens, former head of the IRS’s Exempt Organizations Division, and Joseph M. Birkenstock, former chief counsel of the Democratic National Committee. Both attorneys are members of Washington, D.C., law firm Caplin & Drysdale
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions
A 501(c)(3) is a non-profit corporation
Most charities are non-profits. Not all non-profits are charities. They’re separate legal concepts, and trying to compare them to Red Cross is either ignorance of the law or a disingenuous attempt to confuse people.
GOURANGA!
Yes...
but non-profits are bound to reasonable compensation guidelines for their executives…and in this capacity, they are egregiously erring.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not tax lawyer, so I'll give you that the BCS executives could have an illegally high salary
That doesn’t change the nature or purpose of the system nor demonstrate that the selection of teams or distribution of revenue is corrupt. Jerry Jones is an asshole but that’s not a rationale for breaking up the Dallas Cowboys as a cartel monopolizing Dallas football revenues.
GOURANGA!
It's just about the money...
I’m a playoff advocate simply because I long for an objective conclusion to college football’s season every year. I’d rather have controversy centered around the #9 or #16 team in the land than the #2. That’s my bottom line. It’s highly probable we will have 3-4 unbeatens this season. But, a one loss bama will be more deserving. Uh huh…OK. That’s a hollow argument because it is highly subjective.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions
how is this your argument??
you’ve been ranting on about charities, corruption, and money distribution.
where does that tie into an objective end to the season?
They are interconnected...
The guise is these non-profits help the communities, are good for the school, etc., when in fact, over 70% of schools that go to bowl games end up eating many tickets and return a net loss on the game. The fat cats such as the Bowl Directors and Conf. Commissioners hoard the dollars for themselves. The system itself lines the pockets of a few, at the expense of many. Unless they actually do the right thing and adopt an end-season playoff format, which would provide profits beyond belief, they will continue to hoard the cupboard and throw some crumbs to the little guys. My contingency is the little guys are not so little any longer and they deserve a shot.
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 11:43 PM CDT up reply actions
But you must at least concede
that a playoff format in a 120 team league will pose a greater facade.
A transparent danger is better than an invisable one. People hated the old system and bitched about it, which held intact its true place in the grand scheme of everything, a flawed solution to an unsolvable problem.
But the moment we have a playoff, there will be an assumption on the part of nearly all of this culture’s participants (as is the case with the unquestioned status of the Super Bowl Champion) that we have objectively solved the problem. That is intellectually more dangerous.
You will have removed subjectivity from crowning a champion for the season...
Hey, the system is not perfect. But, it's better than the one we had. Um, really? Joe Paterno led 4 undefeated teams under the old system that were not National Champions. With this "better" system, we've only had to endure a BCS controversy OR an inconclusive end to the following seasons: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.
by Mulliganville on Nov 4, 2010 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions
It is not always the case that a transparent danger is better than an invisible one; that would depend in large part on what’s being threatened. The common cold, which is invisible, was less threatening than the Cold War, or at least that’s what I’m told.
Our disagreement is that you view the old system as a flawed solution to an unsolvable problem, and I view it as a flaw. The only problems that need solving in the sport are what we think will make the game better, which can proceed without caring one way or the other whether said change will cure an undefined or unsolvable problem. The old system was revolting. I don’t need to adopt a global, world-solving teleological view to fix what I find revolting. If I don’t like spinach, I don’t eat it!
I disagree that the moment we have a playoff, our entire culture will assume that we have objectively solved some problem, mostly for the reason that I doubt whether our entire culture agrees on what the “problem” is, or whether it really exists to the degree you think it does. That also explains why I’m not worried about the intellectual danger your hypothetical proposes.
The common cold and cold war argument is irrelevant
a proper analogy would be a disease that has obvious symptoms, and one that lays dormant for years. You’re comparing two things that have nothing to do with one another.
Well, in that case
Ebola has rather obvious symptoms, chlamydia often does not, I’ll take my chances with the clap?
Plus
your last paragraph is contradicted by NFL fans, who do not at all question their Super Bowl winner. “I suppose they must be the best team, an/or Champion of this season.”
College fans at least question what they been presented with.
I can only assure you
that thousands, maybe millions, of NFL fans questioned, still question, and will continue to question whether the 2008 Patriots were better than the Giants.
Myck Kabongo Re-Commits to Texas
Wonder what that was all about.
Fine, I'll say it: yes, this would be a good thing
If this scenario happened to get us the NC, I would be perfectly happy if Texas won the last 4 games and then had to beat Oregon, TCU and NC State. All of which are very good football teams. Injuries/arrests or not, running that gauntlet would be impressive. Oh, and beating Nebraska AGAIN too.
I’m making my way through the Death to the BCS book and there is a lot of information in there that I hadn’t considered or known about.
If we go to playoff
How do we look at the regular season? Do we reschedule and try to go as weak as possible and go undefeated in hopes of a 1 seed, or do we keep the meaningless games and just play them for fun?
You're gonna strongly agree with some of what I say, and you'll strongly disagree with some of what I say. Either way, I don't give a d@#n. I'm just here to talk sports.
How's that worked out this year?
When you’re really good, perhaps they are meaningless, but when you’re not, they take on a different range of meaning. So, you can’t always know that, can you?
I get your presumption, but some years it won’t be there.
Oh i was calling the games against top competition meaningless
Not the games we refer to as meaningless now. If we were to go to a playoff, there is no reason to ever play any good teams other than for fun or to say you’re “getting ready”
You're gonna strongly agree with some of what I say, and you'll strongly disagree with some of what I say. Either way, I don't give a d@#n. I'm just here to talk sports.
If we go to a playoff there will be seeding.
A team would need to be 1 or 2 within their conference but beyond that would be a seeding process. With teams like OU in your conference, those ooc games would give some insurance wrt seeding that a slate of laughers wouldn’t.
If you win every game all the time, then possibly the ooc wouldn’t make a difference. But, quite frankly, I don’t see that in Texas’ future. In general, winning tough games is more valuable and revealing to a team in so many ways than beating a weak team.
I never considered the ooc slate to be a serious argument against a playoff structure. I would consider the 12-game expanded schedule now more of a problem…the only real reason NCAA went to that was because there wasn’t a playoff and there was a pressing need for more dollars in the member football programs. Those dollars are being sucked upward by the BCS elite and slowly but surely diminishing smaller programs.
I would agree that separating the upper division into small and larger schools for a dual playoff format is feasible (ala Texas HS). The actual split would be 80-40 or so due to conference membership (not 64 as suggested). Have a 16-game playoff in the larger division and 8-team in the smaller.
Finally, I would keep TV broadcasters out of the equation until the system is set up. TV and their dollars are the single most corrupting influence in college football. Make them adapt, not vice versa. Make the playoffs something that will feed and grow college football, not the present push-all-the-money-to-the-top system which is causing many schools to wither on the vine.
Do you love football or do you love your TV? Which should be a function of which?
Last, a real champion would be determined at a given time and place on the field. No speculation, no polls, no two-bit beliefs, no bullsh*t, just nothing but two teams who earned the right to play for a championship. It’s so f*cking simple it plum evades people.
We already have a playoff
A two-team playoff, similar to boxing and professional wrestling.
The BCS then offers about 30 consolation exhibition games. Yeah, we’re all winners! Everybody gets a medal.
Hell, with a playoff
We might as well go Independent in football. We would no longer need a conference.
You're gonna strongly agree with some of what I say, and you'll strongly disagree with some of what I say. Either way, I don't give a d@#n. I'm just here to talk sports.
Wouldn't that require one hell of a schedule?
I’m a firm believer in cupcake games at the beginning of the season for warm up. I can’t think of a better way to get the offense clicking. In a non-conference scenario, one would think you’d have to schedule against the world to snatch a top bowl game. And quite honestly, that could be a real bitch.
Texas without a conference would require some serious primetime games.
" Answers --Become Resources."
Without Questions, There are limited Resources...
Um, maybe you misread
I was talking about if we were to go to a playoff, not Bowls.
You're gonna strongly agree with some of what I say, and you'll strongly disagree with some of what I say. Either way, I don't give a d@#n. I'm just here to talk sports.
May as well do that anyways
once Boise demonstrates that you can go to the NC without any credentials.
If you're so sure of what it ain't, how about telling us what it am!
Anybody know where to watch the replay of the Baylor vs Texas game?
Some of my Baylor friends would like to know. he he he
how fitting..
..the aggy comes to a Longhorn board to gloat about a Baylor win over UT. No, not a A&M win over UT, but a Baylor team who’s ranked (when was the last time A&M was ranked?) and beat the worst UT team in 3 years. Typical. Go back under your bridge.
by vy til i die on Nov 4, 2010 11:56 PM CDT up reply actions
No way the '07 squad is as bad as this team
like, not even close
If you're so sure of what it ain't, how about telling us what it am!
I know...
…
beat theworstfirst mediocre/bad UT team in 3 years
fify
by vy til i die on Nov 5, 2010 12:40 AM CDT up reply actions
I started reading this post and wondered if I needed to lay off the vicodin
Never ask a man if he's from Texas. If he is, he'll tell you soon enough. If he's not, don't embarrass him.
I just logged in for the first time this morning....
…and am surveying the destruction left behind.
Job well done, HH. Job well done indeed.
Don't let the bastards get you down. Even the burnt orange ones.
by Hopkins Horn on Nov 4, 2010 10:01 PM CDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
And famous last words
Not really feeling the playoff debate today
Ha!
Don't let the bastards get you down. Even the burnt orange ones.
by Hopkins Horn on Nov 4, 2010 11:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Have you ever seen "Leprechaun?"
I hope you haven’t, but if for some reason you have, this is something like the Leprechaun’s inability to resist shining shoes…so the protagonists simply throw shoes at him, and rather than chase after them, he HAS to shine the shoes.
I’m like that Leprechaun. If you want me out of the way for a few hours, start a debate on college football playoffs.
nice work
Never ask a man if he's from Texas. If he is, he'll tell you soon enough. If he's not, don't embarrass him.

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