Gerald McCoy says the best lineman he ever faced was...
by CoachEtch on Mar 2, 2010 10:07 AM CST
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So I was watching the combine late last night and after Gerald McCoy finished his workout he was interview by Rich Eisen, Mike Mayock, and Brian Billick. One of the final questions they asked him was who was the best lineman he ever faced. He was very torn for a while because he didn't want to alienate any teammates but he said the best lineman he faced bar none was Charlie Tanner. He said tanner was the best he faced because he was just a scrapper and never gave up on the play and gave him fits. Just found that to be an interesting comment for our beleagured offensive line.
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Interesting. Good find, Etch
My sense was that Tanner was exactly what McCoy describes, and that was why the coaches wanted to go to war with him — skills limitations notwithstanding. He gave all he had and he knew what to do; there just were times when he lacked the skills to do them well.
Also, my sense of our O-line last fall was that the pass protection (except for the first half when OU used all those wild-ass blitzes, and against Suh de Man) was pretty good. Our run blocking was not, and that was a product of the formation, the blocking scheme, and the constant changes among running backs — plus the linemen themselves.
My vote on how the linemen played: Ulatoski B+, Tanner B, Hall C+, Hix B, Huey C, Snow C+, Smith (as a blocker) B- . . . . Yes, the line was disappointing. But 13-1 is a lot better than Blow-U (8-5) or Aggie (6-7), two teams we struggled to beat.
Re: OU's wild blitzes
While I’m glad it was so, I don’t get why they didn’t stick with that in the 2nd half. Perhaps it was just tiring for the players to be switching their positioning right up until the snap, but it was giving our o-line fits and led to some nasty encounters for Colt. I’m really surprised they stopped since it was working so well.
LOL David Snow
I’m all for pumping up our boys, but Snow was a F.
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
by run Bevo run on Mar 2, 2010 11:40 AM CST up reply actions
No disrespect . . .
but nobody at UT has been a F or close to it for over a decade. Disappointing, inconsistent, sub-par, confused, penalty-prone (fill in your own set of adjectives). F-level play is what Washington State or Illinois got.
You're probably right
But I’m pretty down on that 2009 OL. A grading system that gives Chris Hall anything above a D is just off. He was bad enough that I would have contemplated a trade for the WSU or Illini center. I’m going with D-/F+ for Chris Hall.
Ulatoski at a B+ is way too high. During the season I actually lost count of the number of blitzers running untouched from his side. The final sack-fumble of the NCG was an unblocked blitzer right in front of him. Fucking awful at blitz pickup. Uly gets a C-/D+. The critical nature of the blind side means every mistake of his is magnified.
Tanner a B? C’mon dude. I’ll accept an argument saying he was average, and B-/C+ is average. I’d give him C+, although I dont ever remember him opening holes in the run game or holding up against good pass rushers.
Hix and Huey were alright in my mind. I’ll go B or B+ for them.
Ok, now I’m angry from having to relive the ’09 OL. Time to start drinking.
Chris Hall
Chris Hall was named to the AFCA Coaches All-American 1st team last year. Now I know that isn’t the end all, be all on who the top center was, but to be named an all-american by a real organization seems to at least earn you a passing grade.
The sack/fumble in the NC game
I originally thought that was Ulatoski’s but later I realized it was a miss on the protection call. The protection had shifted inside to the two would-be blitzers in the middle. The empty set didn’t help any, either. Neither did Gilbert.
"You've got to think lucky. If you fall into a mudhole, check your back pocket - you might have caught a fish" -- Darrell Royal
by SpiritOfTheFedora on Mar 3, 2010 7:00 PM CST up reply actions
I disagree
But, I’m unwilling to do the research to accurately suggest otherwise. So good luck with all of that.
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
by run Bevo run on Mar 3, 2010 10:59 AM CST up reply actions
Pretty close to how I'd grade 'em
I would probably raise those half a grade for pass blocking and lower them half a grade for run blocking. The pass blocking was especially good when we weren’t having to make calls to adjust for blitzes.
It’ll be a Brave New World for that group in the near future, especially after next year when we lose four projected starters. Gonna be a lot of young guys playing in 2011, I sure hope we don’t expect them to execute the current zone blocking scheme in any consistent manner.
"You've got to think lucky. If you fall into a mudhole, check your back pocket - you might have caught a fish" -- Darrell Royal
by SpiritOfTheFedora on Mar 2, 2010 11:52 AM CST up reply actions
Grade the curve, bro'. These are college players. ;)
"Football is an incredible game. Sometimes it's so incredible, it's unbelievable." - Tom Landry
I've never done any in depth film study on the Texas Oline
But it seemed to me that our zone scheme didn’t encourage many double teams, which is especially important on the outside zone plays where reach blocking is involved. I could be wrong because its a while since I watched a game but thats just what I seem to remember.
"I want to be remembered as the guy who gave his all whenever he was on the field."
-Walter Payton
Isn't that the whole idea?
I thought that by definition you double teamed then peel off the guy in the worst position to the next level. Excuse my lack of understanding, I still don’t fully understand the concept. I suspect some of the OL are in the same boat ;)
"You've got to think lucky. If you fall into a mudhole, check your back pocket - you might have caught a fish" -- Darrell Royal
by SpiritOfTheFedora on Mar 2, 2010 12:03 PM CST up reply actions
My ignorance on the subject notwithstanding
this was a pretty good article from the FSU SBN site explaining how Rich Trickett employs zone blocking. Especially interesting is their take on the type of athlete required in the line and at running back and the communications required. Makes you wonder how college guys can pull it off.
"You've got to think lucky. If you fall into a mudhole, check your back pocket - you might have caught a fish" -- Darrell Royal
by SpiritOfTheFedora on Mar 2, 2010 12:26 PM CST up reply actions
Yes absolutely.
For instance. Let’s say Texas is in a right set which just means it is normal personell with the TE on the right set of the formation on the line and we are running a zone play to the right. In that instance, more than likely the right guard would have a three technique over him and ideally he and the center are responsible for that 3 tech and the MLB. The point of zone blocking, and I am a proponent of it when done right, is that you take a step and stay in that zone. So for instance, the guard and center would both take their right zone step, the guards being much shorter than the centers and would double team that 3 tech until they either get him to the MLB or he scrapes over the top in which the center takes over the 3 and the guard is pushed off to the MLB or the MLB comes under the play and the center peels off.
This is how I have ran it as a coach and how it was ran when I played and we were very successful at it. I don’t pretend to have near the experience or intelligence as Mac but I do wish I could be a fly on the wall on a film session or meeting one day.
"I want to be remembered as the guy who gave his all whenever he was on the field."
-Walter Payton
Thanks coach
I love this subject, tend to ramble on about it sometimes. Nuts and bolts, my kind of stuff.
"You've got to think lucky. If you fall into a mudhole, check your back pocket - you might have caught a fish" -- Darrell Royal
by SpiritOfTheFedora on Mar 2, 2010 5:48 PM CST up reply actions
anytime man
love talking football.
"I want to be remembered as the guy who gave his all whenever he was on the field."
-Walter Payton
the problem with zone blocking
is that every coach has their own way of teaching it and coaching it
so defining it as i have seen some do, as ‘this guy blocks the man on him, this guy is uncovered so he helps the man next to him double-team the DL on him’ is a simplification, but it is not always accurate
which is especially important on the outside zone plays where reach blocking is involved
Depends. If the frontside guard has a linebacker aligned over him (a 20 tech), he’d make a zone call, so you’d basically see a 5-man reach as the whole line zones outside, and there are no double-teams.
It depends on how you teach it and coach it, and everyone is different.
Agree on everything is taught differently
However principles stay the same. The reason it is called “Zone Blocking” is that you are blocking within a zone.
Perhaps you have misunderstood what I am saying when I say “outside zone” an outside zone hits off the tackles butt. Therefore the double team is important at the LOS. You are thinking more of a sweep when there is a 5 man reach or a pulling guard involved. I have not seen Texas use many pulling lineman except for on counters.
Also, while a guard does make calls, I have never seen an offense in which the guard makes a call to alter the blocking scheme. He may relay to the center what technique he is seeing but the center usually has last call on how the play is being blocked.
"I want to be remembered as the guy who gave his all whenever he was on the field."
-Walter Payton
Perhaps you have misunderstood what I am saying when I say "outside zone"
No, I understood it perfectly. You said double teams are especially important on outside zone plays, I’m simply pointing out that depending on the defensive alignment, no double teams may be needed nor will they happen.
Also, while a guard does make calls, I have never seen an offense in which the guard makes a call to alter the blocking scheme.
Really? Even a simple ‘you-me’ call by a guard can arguably alter the blocking scheme. I’ve seen lines where the center just identifies who the MLB is, and says if he needs help with the 1 tech, then the guard makes his call, then the tackle, then the TE, all the way down the line. The guard call can alter what the center, tackle and TE all do on the play.
I should also point out that when Dave Christensen was the offensive line coach/offensive coordinator at Missouri, a guard’s call could alter how everyone else blocked.
Disagree
On an outside zone play, if their is a normal alignment where you have a 3 technique and a 5 technique there will be two double teams from the center and playside guard and the playside tackle and tight end. That is quite normal.
Yes, really. Every offense I have played in and coached in the center has final call on blockign schemes. “You/me” calls don’t alter the blocking. That call is generally made to decide who is taking over a double team or if one of the players can handle the down lineman on his own thus sending the other player to get the linebacker.
I’m not saying there have never been offenses where guards don’t make pivotal calls. I’m saying in my experience the center gathers all information and makes the final calls.
I’ll be gone for the next week, however, if you feel like you would like to continue to look silly in this argument I will gladly oblige when I get back. Go back to aggieland, beerbelly.
"I want to be remembered as the guy who gave his all whenever he was on the field."
-Walter Payton
well
On an outside zone play, if their is a normal alignment where you have a 3 technique and a 5 technique there will be two double teams from the center and playside guard and the playside tackle and tight end.
As I’ve already said, we’re tlaking about a play where the linebacker is in a 20, so we’re not talking about an exactly normal alignment, we’re talking about a situation where the linebacker alignment would alter the blocking scheme b/c of a zone call by the guard.
Every offense I have played in and coached in the center has final call on blockign(sic) schemes.
And your playing experience is what? High school and what level of college? Coaching experience is one year as an ‘intern’ coach at Mansfield High School?
As I said before, zone blocking can differ depending on who coaches it. I gave you one example of someone who does it differently than what you are claiming is dogma by mentioning Dave Christensen. It is amusing to me that you somehow think you know more or know better than a man who has more than 20 years of college coaching experience, and is now a head coach. Christensen is just one college coach I know of who does his line calls this way.
Just because you in your VAST coaching experience have never seen it done differently doesn’t mean your way is the only way, but maybe that is a lesson you will learn as you gain more experience. I would simply mark it up as ignorance on your part, but you seem to think your one season makes you a guru, which is quite funny, really.
if you feel like you would like to continue to look silly in this argument
The irony.
hahaha
I was actually looking forward to reading this when I got back from vaca.So where to start?
What we have been talking about all along is a normal alignment. I don’t know what football circles you run around with in aggieland but whenever anyone draws up a football play they will usually draw it up against a normal 4-3 alignment to begin with. It is obvious that you plainly just didn’t know what you were talking about as to what constitutes an outside zone play so threw out there your “20 tech” caveat. Nice try beer belly.
Secondly, I don’t need to have a juvenile dick measuring contest with you on my football experience. I was fortunate enough to play high school and college ball and get GA experience as well as an internship with a high school program. Whatever your opinion is of my experience, I have it. You just referenced one coach, who I was actually fortunate to meet in college, who runs his zone scheme differently than most, as you stated. I could care less if you know one coach who does their line calls differently. I was stating what is the norm.
If I want to seek advice from someone with experience in tackling overweight women I will make sure to consult you first.
"I want to be remembered as the guy who gave his all whenever he was on the field."
-Walter Payton
I was actually looking forward to reading this when I got back from vaca.
You must go on incredibly exciting vacations then.
What we have been talking about all along is a normal alignment. I don’t know what football circles you run around with in aggieland but whenever anyone draws up a football play they will usually draw it up against a normal 4-3 alignment to begin with.
Actually, we are talking about an exception to your original statement, which was that double-teams are required in blocking in an outside zone scheme. I pointed out the exception, you claimed I must not have understood what you meant, I explained that I do understand outside zone blocking, and now you’re questioning who I talk football with, because you have no response. I merely point out that there is an obvious exception to your blanket statement, and instead of simply acknowledging that I might, heaven forbid, be correct, you had to go off half-cocked, b/c God forbid anyone get the inference that InternEtch doesn’t know what he is talking about or might have made a mistake.
It is obvious that you plainly just didn’t know what you were talking about as to what constitutes an outside zone play so threw out there your "20 tech" caveat.
Are you really this stupid, or do you actually believe the crap you type? Just b/c you apparently have no idea what a 20 tech is nor have you ever heard of this explanation of outsize zone blocking doesn’t mean I’m making this up. Just b/c you are ignorant in this area doesn’t mean someone else is wrong.
I was fortunate enough to play high school and college ball and get GA experience as well as an internship with a high school program.
Where did you play your college ball? Where did you GA?
If you worked for a season as a GA, why weren’t you able to get a paying job working as a position coach, instead of as an ‘intern’?
I could care less if you know one coach who does their line calls differently. I was stating what is the norm.
I know more than one coach who does their line calls differently than what you are calling ‘the norm’, several in fact.
If I want to seek advice from someone with experience in tackling overweight women I will make sure to consult you first.
Seriously, a comment about my weight? You’re so desperate to salvage some respect from looking bad on here that you’re resorting to personal attacks? I’m fairly certain I weigh less than you do and am in a helluva lot better shape than you are. If that is you on the left in your avatar pic, I’m not only certain, I KNOW I’m in better shape than you are. Maybe you should worry less about other people, and work on getting rid of those man-boobs. Just a thought.
hahaha
Man you are sad.
Actually, we weren’t. We were talking about outside zone blocking and then you started throwing out random linebacker alignments that would possibly change the scheme. Your reading comprehension skills are lacking.
I already told you I’m not into juvenile dick measuring contests. I know you will get all excited but there are some things I don’t post on the internet. As far as my internship, my masters was in Education with a sports psychology emphasis. Completing an unpaid internship was part of my graduate course work, moron.
NCLB definitely did not work for you. I commented on your preference for overweight women, not your weight. Reading comprehension.
"I want to be remembered as the guy who gave his all whenever he was on the field."
-Walter Payton
yea he did mention the pouncey twins.
"I want to be remembered as the guy who gave his all whenever he was on the field."
-Walter Payton
I Thought
Ulatoski was supposed to be our best lineman.From his poor showing at the combine I now have more respect for MacWhorter.
I tend to see through orange colored glasses and think our players are superior to everyone else.Many are but this past O line wasn’t.
Other than outworking everybody I,as an old Hog himself, have no solution to the problem.Most of the time it is see the man block the man.If you can’t block him double team him.
What do you perceive the problem to be?
If you are asking me
I just think we are asking our guys to block in too much space. When we stretch everything to the sidelines you not only give the defensive lineman more room to operate you are also asking the guy you are double teaming with to make that much of a bigger step and get across that much quicker. As you know being a former lineman, you want to keep the best base you can and the bigger step you have to take on the zone’s the harder to is to get your feet back under you and up field to help you once you engage in the block.
"I want to be remembered as the guy who gave his all whenever he was on the field."
-Walter Payton
I never played line, for obvious reasons
I was wayyyyyy too small. But just from watching, I think it looks like it’s a lot easier to block in tight spaces. Seems almost obvious, although somehow Tech got by with their wide scheme. But the space seems like it’d make it a lot more challenging.
I have beat wholesale ass for a whole lot less.
by burntorangehorn on Mar 2, 2010 5:28 PM CST up reply actions
I agree on the blocking in space issue
A bigger one as it pertains to Texas’ O-line is that the players were bred to be pass protectors — then, they were asked to be athletic and play in space to make the running game work. Our blockers were recruited to be reactive players, long on bulk and a bit shy on speed/quickness, mandated to keep the QB on his feet as he worked his way through 3, 4 reads. Then, the linemen were assigned the duty of trying to chase down linebackers and sometimes safeties who could slant through gaps to make stops at or near the line of scrimmage.
Translation: We sent our willing and well-trained boys out there and asked them to be men.
Notice the absence of Hall and Tanner (and, after the 2008 season, Dockery) from the NFL Combine? The NFL could care less whether you’re blocking in Tech’s offense or Notre Dame’s or the Notre Dame box (look it up) . . . they just want skilled players.
Exactly what I saw
Or I think I saw. They were pass blockers first and did well at that but they didn’t have quick enough feet for the side step to zone block in space. Snow and Huey especially seemed off balance a lot of the time. I think Snow’s move to center will be good for him.
"You've got to think lucky. If you fall into a mudhole, check your back pocket - you might have caught a fish" -- Darrell Royal
by SpiritOfTheFedora on Mar 2, 2010 5:42 PM CST up reply actions
IMHO
I think it was a combination of scheme and lack of athleticism. Our scheme certainly did not help alleviate the shortcomings of our line’s athletic ability but I think that Mack and Greg were committed to Colt and letting the pass be the center of the offense that the run, while they felt it was necessary, was simply not worth changing things away from Colts strengths.
"I want to be remembered as the guy who gave his all whenever he was on the field."
-Walter Payton
you're overthinking it
if you can slide to pass block, you can zone to run block
it is more difficult to pass block than run block, period
I think a bigger problem is that you had linemen who just were not very good. I used to laugh at the media when they tried to hype Ulatoski; he was hooooooorrible.
Over the last two years
I think most would agree that our OL was better at pass blocking. Some guys are better at pass blocking, some at run blocking for whatever reason. One example- our OL pass blocked pretty well against Alabama, the run blocking was just not there.
"You've got to think lucky. If you fall into a mudhole, check your back pocket - you might have caught a fish" -- Darrell Royal
by SpiritOfTheFedora on Mar 6, 2010 4:40 PM CST up reply actions
Tech's scheme is a bit different
For one they have about 4 foot splits which is insane. Dead people can run through four foot gaps. Secondly, they pass so much that when they run it’s fairly unexpected. Lastly, they definitely run a man blocking scheme.
"I want to be remembered as the guy who gave his all whenever he was on the field."
-Walter Payton
REALLY?!?!?
I didn’t realize our splits were that huge! Are we threatening the Texas Tech splits?! ;-)
Tech's splits have about 4 feet
I believe ours are between 2 and 3 feet which is quite normal.
"I want to be remembered as the guy who gave his all whenever he was on the field."
-Walter Payton
From what Neal Brown has said in the past weeks.....
our splits will now be roughly 3.5’ instead of 4’. At this point, I’m not really sure how that is going to effect the first step of all our linemen. Tech teaches a right foot first step and it’s made rather quickly. Shortening the gap between the linemen might cause somewhat of a conundrum. Watching Brandon Carter this year and Louis Vasquez last year, their first steps were made back and wide almost under the next linemen. This might create some strange lanes and quite possibly a lot of flat falling over or getting beat.
Didn’t intend to highjack the thread, just thought I’d chime in.
" Answers -- Become Resources."
Without Questions; There are limited Resources...
that's correct, Tech does run a man blocking scheme.
The best example to date, I think, is our game with Nebraska in 2009. Or Winn getting beat man to man by Kindle. But I don’t like to remember that hit, so I’ll move on.
The Tech oline made quite a few great calls during the Nebraska game and quite a few bad ones. The one that stands out the most is Carter calling Suh out towards the end of the game. Called the block and blew up Suh right in the ear hole. Entirely to bold for my taste but he did the job and Batch got the hell outta dodge for 10-12 yards. Fantastic play.
" Answers -- Become Resources."
Without Questions; There are limited Resources...
Our O-Line Grades... hrmmm F+?
Heres a TD pass during the Wyoming game:
4 Wyoming rushers, against 5 Linemen. McCoy nearly gets sacked almost before 2 Mississippi, and saves the play with an improv roll-out.
I watch this clip and cringe every time, even though the net result of the play was a positive.
I remember McCoy saying Tanner is...
the best competitor he ever faced, not the best player. But its still a great compliment and good for Charlie.
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
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