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Barnes: An "F" in recruiting Program Players


It's not hard to hit a home run with the 5-star studs like Durant, Aldridge, Ford and Augustin - Barnes gets an "A" in bringing them to the 40 acres.  But therein lies the problem, these guys stick for one or two years and then move on to greener pastures - that leaves you with the 4 and 3 star recruits - and that's where Barnes has failed, and failed miserably.

Consider the "non-superstars" who he has signed between 2002 and 2007 (still to soon to judge the 08 and 09 class in my opinion):  here you go if you are ready for it:

Matt Hill

Clint Chapman

Dogus Balbay

Gary Johnson

Alexi Wangmene

Justin Mason

Harrison Smith

Dexter Pittman

A.J. Abrams

Craig Winder

J.D. Lewis

Connor Atchley

Dion Dowell

Mike Williams

Edgar Moreno

P.J. Tucker

Kenny Taylor

Kenton Paulino

 

That's the list.  Other than Gary Johnson (who apparently can't hit clutch free throws), Abrams (who was always a work in progress on defense tii his senior year) and P.J. Tucker, who had grade issues and left after his junior year, it is hard to find a bona fide "hit" with any of the players on this list - but it isn't too difficult to find a lot of "misses."

Program players are the ones who stay 4 years and are the heart and soul of your program - a Justin Mason-type with offensive skills.  Royal Ivey, Brandon Mouton and James Thomas fit that bill to a Texas "T" - although Barnes put Thomas in the doghouse during the later half of his senior season in favor of the great Jason Klotz.  Who has filled that bill since these 3 left?  Barnes has struck out time after time and pretty much gets a pass since he brings in the super stars.

Where are the 4-star recruits who stay and prosper - those who build a program and a team identity?  (Maybe at Baylor, A&M,K-State,Ok. State?)  When Barnes misses, he misses big.  I assume he may have been able to get a lot of these guys but just misjudged their talent. 

We just seem to keep signing pretty much the wrong 4-star recruits.  Who do we blame for that?  The player or the coach?

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You are an idiot

Although it is pretty obvious that this is probably the first time you have logged on to BON.

Feel free to look around and read more intellectual and sound fan posts before spitting out ur ignorance

COACH BOOM BABY!!

by hookemkp on Mar 20, 2010 9:27 PM CDT reply actions  

ditto

Larry’s got 3 post and 52 comments.
Be the change you want to see in the world.

"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo

by run Bevo run on Mar 20, 2010 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don’t necessarily agree or disagree with the main post, but the “rookie poster” argument is annoying and lazy.

by JohnsonUT on Mar 20, 2010 10:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree

If he is a first timer, the best thing not to do is call him an “idiot” then try to direct him to some “more intellectual” topics. Not trying to call anyone out not at all.

"The best decision I ever made was coming to Texas," James said. "The second-best decision was coming back."

by blazzinken on Mar 25, 2010 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well researched

Glad you looked closely at my history – also, thanks for YOUR intelligent post – I love the way you used your insights to attack my statements and not me personally – if your reply is an example of a sound response, well, now I know why I held off from posting for so long – I thought I could start a useful dialogue – instead I got YOU – I won’t spit out my ignorance anymore for fear of insulting the great minds of the world such as yourself – you WIN – enjoy the trophy

by LarrySabu on Mar 20, 2010 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

For what its worth I enjoyed the post and hope you don't stop posting because of one guy.

I sure wouldn’t have taken the time to see whom all Barnes has recruited, but I’m glad someone did. Good information. I think Varez Ward will end up being one of the unheralded 3 star recruits who is a glue guy for the program. Other than him and Gary Johnson I don’t think we have any “program players” currently on our roster.

One question I do have: What happened to Jai Lucas? This kid was a McDonald’s All-American coming out of high school in Bellaire and was an SEC All-Freshman in his first year at Florida. Shouldn’t our coaches be able get more out of his talent than what they did?

by 2Cor12:9 on Mar 20, 2010 11:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Looking at the way he played

I don’t see him ever being productive for us. He’s just too small to make and kind of play on defense, and he won’t be able to get a shot off in the paint. Who knows, maybe the progression of Brown/Bradley/Hamilton next year gets Lucas more room to breathe on the court.

by goingforthecorner on Mar 21, 2010 12:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

I definitely agree with you when looking at how he produced when he was on the floor.

He seems to lack the elite quickness needed to excel at the point guard position. But I would assume he had the same amount of quickness at Florida and in high school. Why did he excel at those places and not here? Maybe it was a case of being on a bad team (Florida) and a case of not going up against elite talent (high school). Whatever the reason, it’s just another added disappointment to the season and team.

by 2Cor12:9 on Mar 21, 2010 1:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

but a good question...

How did he play so much for Florida his freshman year and do so well then? They won a national championship that year by the way so it’s not like he was rolling up big stats for a junk team. Not neccesarily saying that Barnes has ruined him or didn’t use him wisely…but something is weird there. I also wonder why Avery Bradley went from the top HS player in the country to a timid player.

by BeeCaveHornFan on Mar 21, 2010 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

Bradley

Primarily he was known for his Defense and being able to attack the hop. By the end of his Sr. year he was absolutely killing it with his midrange jumper, the kid would stop and pull up and hit it at about a 70% clip (unlike this yr). That said he was just finding these parts of his game when he graduated and happened to be on a HOT streak come Rankings time.

His main struggles this yr were getting stripped driving to the lane and knowing when to take the pull up J (I’d rather see it at the end of the shotclock than early). Also its hard to feel in a rhythm offensively without a Consistent PG, I think everyone on the team suffered from this not just Avery.

by HornsUpInLA on Mar 21, 2010 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

Lucas' freshman season came a year after the Gators

won back-to-back NC. This year is the first year Florida has even made the tournament since those titles after missing it the last two years, which would have been Lucas’ freshman season and redshirt season with us. Technically Lucas will be classified as a senior next season until he gets a waiver from the NCAA because he played in one exhibition game last season with FLA.

by 2Cor12:9 on Mar 21, 2010 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

People who excel at a particular school...

do not just transfer out of that school. If he was “excelling at those places (aka Florida)”, why would he leave Florida to come to Texas AND sit out a year? Also from a coach in Billy Donovan who has won two national championships?

Lucas transferred from Florida because he was relieved of his PG duties, which were given to Calathes. He was not fit to play PG at Florida, and he hasn’t shown any promise (thus far) of being able to play PG consistently at Texas either.

by whodat on Mar 21, 2010 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Lucas has mentioned his desire to play the point was his reason for transferring

and you are correct about Calathes. But that doesn’t change the fact that he averaged over 8 ppg and earned All-Freshman honors, something neither Brown or Hamilton received.

Maybe Barnes told Lucas that he would give him a season at the point considering Lucas’ desire to play there. Personally, I would like to have seen him used similar to A.J. Abrams. Running off screens looking for his shot. This is a kid that shot over 43% from 3pt range at FLA. I will be thorougly disappointed with the coaching staff if he is used the same way next year. Play him off the ball to help spread the floor and pray that he makes huge strides defensively.

by 2Cor12:9 on Mar 21, 2010 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

OK here it goes no more personal attacks

It has become very cliche to say this. But recruiting at any level and any sport is about 50% crapshoot. Some turn out like they are supposed to and some don’t.

Your definition of program players is flawed. It can easily be interpreted as someone who doesn’t have the skillset to play in NBA, but can be successful in college level. (However, I do acknowledge that DWade and CPaul are exceptions to the program player category). Staying all 4 yrs?? Barnes is supposed to know who is gonna stay all 4 yrs? some stay all 4 yrs unexpectedly (Damion James), and some dont (Daniel Gibson, PJ) A program is lucky if they can have your definition of program player every 5, 10 yrs. A good player staying in all 4 yrs has become VERY rare in this era of one and done.

Injuries: I dont think Barnes could have seen this coming.
-Matt Hill (Mr. Basketball in HS out of Nebraska, injuries in 1st 2 yrs)
-Dogus Balbay ( 2 knee injuries in 3 yrs)
-Gary Johnson (Heart problem that basically ruined his 1st yr and some),
-Alexis Wangmene (knee injury last yr)

You are an idiot point
-Kenton Paulino? do you not remember the shot? He is A in my “program player” book http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-H7ZhZWjjU
-Good Connor Atchley: when DJ was here. I cant really blame his disappointing senior season solely on him. (PG play last yr was just awful)
-PJ Tucker: stayed 3 yrs, put up good numbers, and won huge games for us go look up his awards and finalist lists
-Pittman: He stayed all 4 yrs lots lotta weight blah blah, not exactly heart and soul of our team, but I think he deserves more credit. Who can forget knocking out Blake Griffin? (I kid)

WTF cases
-Harrison Smith (refuse to play defense), Mike Williams (WTF??)

I will give your “program players”
Varez Ward, I think he is potentially a good “program player”
Brad Buckman
Jason Klotz .
Brian Boddicker
Damion James—stayed all 4 yrs and was the heart and soul of our team

COACH BOOM BABY!!

by hookemkp on Mar 21, 2010 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Yep

that’s pretty much the point I tried to make in PB’s last thread.

Take a look at our “program players” and compare them to the program players of KU, KSU, A&M, Baylor, and Missouri, and it’s easy to figure out why all four teams finished higher. Heck, their program players are also their best players. Baylor is a unique example. Their best players (Carter and Dunn) are the program players while their potential lottery pick is more of a role player (Udoh).

I think it’s probably safe to go ahead and add Andrew Dick and Dean Melchionni to that list as well. I do think Ward and Williams can be the type of players we’re looking for.

by goingforthecorner on Mar 21, 2010 12:20 AM CDT reply actions  

I've had this conversation several times with some UNC alumni

It seems college basketball has trended toward rewarding the Tyler Hansbroughs of the world – those who have marginal lottery talent and require three to four years of college experience to realize their potential.

I admit that I don’t follow recruiting beyond reading the articles on BON’s front page, but the program seems to be relatively heavy on early exit NBA talent (though in this year’s case, that talent appears to exist primarily in the players’ own minds and year old prognostications) compared to developmental NBA talent. The former can be a joy to watch, but the latter have the potential to offer three to four years of program stability. Further those players who are aware that they need coaching to reach the next level, as opposed to those who are merely meeting the NBA’s one year requirement, are likely to be more receptive to a defense first coach like Barnes.

I would be curious to see the relative turnover of UT compared to Kansas under Self and UNC under Williams.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on Mar 21, 2010 1:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

We probably lead the turnover by a mile

or at least ratio of talented players recruited to the number of them leaving.

by goingforthecorner on Mar 21, 2010 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is why I hate the NBA

I really wish they had at least a three-and-done policy, like the NFL. For all the things I dislike about the NFL, this is one thing I actually admire the league.

Boycott Facebook. It's lame. Inform your real friends that you're going to communicate with them like a normal human being, and then delete your account. Seriously.

by burntorangehorn on Mar 22, 2010 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

nah..

..there aren’t many players that would be ready for the NFL coming out of HS (I think the only one recently was Adrian Peterson). However, there are countless for the NBA. The NFL isn’t looking out for the players, but rather their product. If the NCAA (if they are the ones in charge) wanted to change the policy by the NBA, they should try to adopt a system more like baseball’s.

by vy til i die on Mar 22, 2010 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sure, but it ruins college basketball

The revolving door of rosters just plain destroys college basketball, IMO. A true freshman has a great season? Well, enjoy it up through tournament time, because after that, he’s in the NBA. It’s ridiculous.

Baseball struggles with this as well.

Boycott Facebook. It's lame. Inform your real friends that you're going to communicate with them like a normal human being, and then delete your account. Seriously.

by burntorangehorn on Mar 22, 2010 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

I totally agree.

Either go in right after high school or wait 3 years. I believe it was Bill Self that I heard say he would like it to be that way for basketball as well.

by 2Cor12:9 on Mar 22, 2010 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

I would not give him an F in anything

Maybe a B- or a C. But Come on.

In the 12 seasons prior to Barnes

  • win pct (.654)
  • We won the SWC 3 times but had a .500 in the Big 12
  • 2 seasons with 25 wins or more.
  • 8 Tourney appearances
  • 2 trips past the 2nd round (1-Elite 8, 1-Sweet 16)

In Barnes 12 years

  • win pct (.732)
  • Conf win pct (.737)
  • 6 seasons of 25 wins or more. 11 seasons of 20 wins or more. (1 with 19)
  • 3 times Big 12 Champ (or Co-Champ)
  • 12 Tourney appearances
  • 2-Sweet 16’s, 2-Elite 8’s, and 1 – Final Four

That is just flat out a lot of winning. Does he have flaws? Sure. But I can only name 5 or 6 coaches in the country who have had this level of success at their program.

So I don’t think he gets an ‘F’ in anything.

Plus, I liked Mason, Atchley, Abrams, and I loved PJ Tucker. And DJ Augustine was a Rivals 4*. Varez Ward was a 3*. And we don’t need them to be “Bonafide Hits”. We need them to be great team role players. So I don’t think your argument holds much water.

Not to mention this

It’s not hard to hit a home run with the 5-star studs like Durant, Aldridge, Ford

1 – yes it is. It is not easy. UNC has 4 or 5 McD’s All-Americans playing in the NIT right now.

2 – You understate this like “yeah, he has done a good job getting these guys, but….” Seriously?! In a game where only 5 guys are on the court, getting these guys to come here and commit to being a Longhorn is arguably the hardest and most important job a guy has in todays game. And Lets take a look at THAT list:

TJ Ford
Brad Buckman
LaMarcus Aldridge
Daniel Gibson
Mike Williams
Kevin Durant
Damion James
Jordan Hamilton
Avery Bradley

So stop it already. All over-reactors (I’m looking at you greenspoint) should please make their way over to the newly formed FireBillSelf.com website. I mean they have to fire him right? He obviously can’t recruit role players…… I kid, I kid.

"A lot of people look for the easy way to do anything, in swimming there is no easy way." - Eddie Reese

by SwimTexas on Mar 21, 2010 10:12 AM CDT reply actions  

I'm glad you added some additional names...

There were some names left off the original list that have done very well for Texas despite being unheralded (Buckman, Royal Ivey, Kenton Paulino) or were supposed to be good and preformed as they should (Aldridege, Gibson). I would also argue that Kenny Taylor did a pretty good job considering he was really just a gunner when he showed up here.

Look…Barnes and his recruiting and coaching style has Texas in a place that they haven’t seen before and that is where the fans EXPECT to win. It wasn’t that way before he got here. But he’s lost some of his better assistants as they become head coaches at other schools. His assistants now are good coaches and recruiters…but grew up in his system. I think bringing in an offensive minded assistant from outside the program would do wonders.

by BeeCaveHornFan on Mar 21, 2010 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Maurice Evans and Kelly

I think it was Kelly, I cant remember his first name. From the time I can remember Barnes has done exceedingly well with glue guys. Guys that were knowledgeable basketball players with good but not great athleticism bball skills etc.

We forget Maurice Evans and Kelly, or Freddie Mitchell D-ing up Tensley (drawing at least 2 charges) when they were a Top 10 team.

To me the issue with the latest round of guys is overall BBall knowledge and instincts, with instincts being tough to coach and knowledge coming with time. Two of the guys sat out a yr between HS and College, very very difficult to adjust too especially with bad habits from AAU ball.

I look forward to seeing Wingman, Chappy, and Hill step up to fill some sort of role this next yr. The opportunity is there its up to them and the coaches to figure it out and get it done.

I have full confidence this team will grow in leaps and bounds this next year.

HOOK EM

by HornsUpInLA on Mar 21, 2010 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks for some Excellent Insights

I appreciate the well presented comments. They do an excellent job of exposing what I had to say. That was all I was hoping to do – to generate some good BB dialogue – to get insulted right off the bat really threw me off (people who attack the messenger and not the message are the very ones I try to avoid on blogs – and in life in general).

To those of you who gave support and indeed, engaged in a fun basketball commentary, thanks!

by LarrySabu on Mar 21, 2010 1:21 PM CDT reply actions  

The one thing I disagreed with

SwimTexas already pointed it out:

It’s not hard to hit a home run with the 5-star studs like Durant, Aldridge, Ford and Augustin – Barnes gets an “A”

I don’t know if you meant to type that, but persuading the best high school players in the country to play basketball in Texas (a football school with pretty much no basketball tradition) is definitely NOT easy!

IMO you were spot on with Barnes not doing a good job recruiting the 3 and 4 star athletes that will stay here all 4 years. There are a few good players that fit this bill, but too many busts like you list above shows.

by goingforthecorner on Mar 21, 2010 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

In his defense

I don’t think he was saying it is easy to get them to come, I think he was saying it is easy to get them to play well once they are here…. “hit a home run” with them. But again, as UNC is finding out this year, it is not always easy to be great with great players.

It was the general tone of the post that I thought understated the value in getting them to come here in the first place, which, as you stated, is not easy.

"A lot of people look for the easy way to do anything, in swimming there is no easy way." - Eddie Reese

by SwimTexas on Mar 21, 2010 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Appreciate it

I did give Barnes an “A” for bringing them to the 40 acres. I recognize that this is quite an achievement and thus the grade of “A”

What I meant to say (although I did not say this in such a way as to communicate it to you and others) what that it was not hard to be correct in his assessment of the talent of the 5-star recruits. They were all pretty much excellent players but the predictability that they would become so was pretty high.

Whereas, with the lower rated recruits, where insight and scouting acumen really comes into play, his “hit” v “miss” ratio was, and is, a concern.

by LarrySabu on Mar 21, 2010 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

I understand now

Though I still disagree.

"A lot of people look for the easy way to do anything, in swimming there is no easy way." - Eddie Reese

by SwimTexas on Mar 22, 2010 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Rick Barnes

Rick Barnes is not the man that brought Texas out of the dark ages. That title belongs to Tom Penders. Rick Barnes rode on Tom pender’s shoulders to get the recruits he got. But good recruits alone won’t win anything – you need good coaching – for proof of that, just look what happend to us this year. If he could atleast have a little motion in the half court i wouldn’t feel so insecure about this ball club.

by houston fan on Mar 21, 2010 10:23 PM CDT reply actions  

haha

Barnes rode on Penders’ shoulder to get Ford, Aldridge, Durant, Augustin, Bradley, and Hamilton? Give credit where credit is due. Rick Barnes is fabulous at getting elite talent to play in Austin. And for the most part, his talent has played really well here (wonder if Barnes the coach should get any credit for that?). The issue is they just don’t stay here long enough to sustain elite success.

by goingforthecorner on Mar 22, 2010 12:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

I Enjoyed This Discussion

both pro and con, and certainly points can be made both ways. I understand it is a crap shoot on some of these kids but, just to pick one year, last year, I just didn’t understand how we could have 4 guards who couldn’t shoot the ball from more than 10 ft from the basket (Mason, Balbay, Smith, and Ward – Ward came on as a good dribble penetrator but really didn’t have a reliable outside shot). So were these kids good in HS and forgot how to shoot in college, was it stepped up college defenses that impacted their shots, or were they recruiting issues. Yes, you could recruit one or maybe two guys like this, but 4? And maybe Ward will develop and we can drop him off the list.

My point is, we do seem to be lacking the supporting cast to surround the more elite recruits. Maybe it is just a cyclical thing – you can’t hit home runs every year.

The other thing I wonder about is, are the guys coming in being developed to the top of their potential? I look at a kid like Chapman in pre game warmups and I’m really impressed by his athleticism. OK, I know he may have some defensive issues but is he any worse on defense than Dex? On offense he at least has a jump shot, can dribble the ball some, can make tip in baskets without bringing the ball down to his belly to spring up for a slam dunk every time, etc. He had more minutes playing as a freshman than he did this year. I’m not trying to play coach, Rick sees him in practice every day and there is obviously something going on we don’t see. But since this is a discussion board, I’m just raising the question. Does anyone else have any pros or cons about player development over 4 years?

And speaking of recruiting, what do folks think about teams like No. Iowa, St Mary’s, and Cornell this year? Is that good recruiting, good coaching, just good luck for one year, or what?

by gcinthewoods on Mar 21, 2010 11:38 PM CDT reply actions  

probably a combination of all of the above, but mostly coaching

by LarrySabu on Mar 22, 2010 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

How long

has N. Iowa’s, St. Mary’s, and Cornell’s coaches been at their respective schools? If you are going to give the coach credit for their success this year, lets look at the preious years…… I would say that any time a really small school does well in the tourney 1 year, it is a combination of all of those things, but with the emphasis on luck.

"A lot of people look for the easy way to do anything, in swimming there is no easy way." - Eddie Reese

by SwimTexas on Mar 22, 2010 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

No doubt

The stars have to align just right

by LarrySabu on Mar 22, 2010 8:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

look at how Sam Houston played Baylor – they lost the game but acquited themselves very well – they exploited holes in Baylor’s zone that Barnes seemed unable to even locate, and he had 3 chances to do so

good points on Chapman – he couldn’t be worse than Dex, or so it seems – his is weak on defense, no question – but he can score in more than one way and seems to help the offensive flow with his better movement – he does move a lot better than Dex – but for whatever reason, he was in the same doghouse that others seem to occupy – I hope he gets a shot next season – it’s his last chance

by LarrySabu on Mar 22, 2010 11:21 AM CDT reply actions  

Chappy will also set solid screens

Something we’ve missed since Atchley left.

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.

by Caradoc on Mar 22, 2010 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

excellent point – he can actually get out from the basket area to do so and is more than willing – he is also the first guy off the bench to encourage his teammates whenever there is a timeout

by LarrySabu on Mar 22, 2010 1:25 PM CDT reply actions  

Someone Like Chapman

also has the ability to come out, set a high screen, and if he gets the ball back can potentially pop a 10-15 footer. This was not an option for Dex. He had to station himself 5 feet from the basket or he was not an offensive threat.

I also have noticed the same thing about Chapman that you noted – he is the first off the bench cheering on his teammates, a real team attitude. Maybe he has been a victim of PB’s “Death by Suffocation”. If these guys were able to come in and just play without being worried about being jerked the first thime they make a mistake, we might see totally different play out of some of these guys.

by gcinthewoods on Mar 22, 2010 7:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wheres the love...

For Ian Mooney?

mooooney maniacs #22

by MJY6087 on Mar 24, 2010 5:26 PM CDT reply actions  

Fire, Barnes and hire the Butler Head Coach!!!!!

Texas, needs to fire Rick Barnes ASAP and hire the Butler head coach. For all the ppl saying Rick Barnes shouldn’t be fired nothing will change next year, Barnes will continue to get out coached every game like always. Barnes is the longest tendered head coich in the Big 12 all the horrible coaches are gone and now he’s the weakest link and should be let go.

by TexasNeedsACo on Mar 26, 2010 1:48 AM CDT reply actions  

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