Barnes in Winning Time
by pantherchap on Mar 21, 2010 11:57 PM CDT
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There has been a lot of great discussion about Rick Barnes in the wake of the 2010 collapse. For the most part, Barnes has been defended. I myself don’t want Barnes to be fired, but I have - and have always had - concerns about Barnes’ ability to coach in-game. It is his weakness in my opinion and until he addresses it, I’m afraid we Longhorn basketball fans are in for a lot more 2010s and very few 2003s. As I’ve said in many of my comments, what bothers me the most about Barnes is his performance during winning time. I define winning time as both the last five minutes of tight games and post-season tournament play. Most disturbing to me is that he has never won a conference tournament title. If you look at the great programs in this country – including Kansas in the Big XII, they have multiple wins in their conference tournaments. They often have to learn how to win their conference tournament before they learn how to win in the NCAAs. I don’t think we can expect to win the NCAA Big Dance until we learn to win the Little Dance called the Big XII Tournament.
A lot of stats and players have been examined in posts lately, but I would like us to examine winning time – post-season play. Let’s take a look at Rick Barnes’ Longhorn teams in post-season play as referenced by our media guide you can download from Texassports.com:
1998-9 Texas is a one seed in the Big XII Tournament and goes 1-1. To be fair it was an incredible season for a team that started 3-8, but managed to win the regular season conference title. But in the conference tournament, Texas lost to fifth seed Oklahoma State by two points. Chris Mihm is all Big XII Tourney; Mihm and Muoneke are all conference. In the NCAA Texas is seeded 7th. They are upset by 10th seed Purdue by four points.
1999-00 Texas is a two seed in the Big XII Tournament and goes 1-1. Texas loses to three seed Oklahoma by sixteen points in the semi-finals. Chris Mihm is all Big XII Tourney and all conference. In the NCAA Tournament Texas is 1-1, seeded 5th. In a tight game, Texas loses to 4th seed LSU by five in the second round.
2000-01 Texas is a four seed and goes 2-1. Texas loses to three seed Oklahoma in the finals by nine. Texas scores 45 points in that game. Texas loses three games to OU that year. OU is upset in opening round of NCAA. Chris Owens is all Big XII Tourney. In the NCAA Texas is a 6th seed and gets upset by 11th seeded Temple by 14 points.
2001-02 Texas is a three seed in the Big XII Tournament and goes 1-1. Texas loses to two seed Oklahoma in semi-finals by sixteen. TJ Ford is all Big XII Tourney. In the NCAA Tournament Texas is a six seed. Texas upsets 3rd seed Mississippi State by four points in the second round. Texas is defeated by two seed Oregon in the Sweet Sixteen by two points.
2002-03 Texas is a two seed in the Big XII Tournament. Texas loses the first game to seven seed Texas Tech by eleven points. TJ is all conference and national player of the year. In the NCAA Texas is a one seed. Ford’s team goes to Final Four beating UNC-Asheville, Purdue, Connecticut, and Michigan State. The Longhorns then lost to Carmelo and Syracuse in the semi-finals by eleven points.
2003-4 Texas is a two seed in the Big XII Tournament and goes 2-1. Longhorns lose to one seed Oklahoma State in the final by sixteen points. Brandon Mouton is all Big XII Tourney and all conference (media). In the NCAA Tournament the Horns are a three seed. Texas loses in the Sweet Sixteen to seventh seed Xavier by eight points.
2004-5 Texas is a six seed in the Big XII Tournament. Texas loses to eleven seed Colorado by 12 points. In the NCAA, Texas is seeded eighth. Texas loses to nine seed Nevada by four. Gibson is the freshman of the year in conference.
2005-6 Texas is a one seed in the Big XII Tournament and goes 2-1. Texas loses to two seed Kansas by 12 points in the final. LaMarcus Aldridge and P.J. Tucker are all Big XII Tourney and all conference. In the NCAA, Texas is a second seed. Texas loses in the Elite Eight to four seed LSU and Big Baby by 10 in overtime.
2006-7 Texas is a three seed in the Big XII Tournament and goes 2-1. Texas loses to one seed Kansas in OT 88-84. Horns blow 32-10 lead. It is the biggest comeback in Kansas history. AJ Abrams and Durant are all Big XII Tourney. Durant is Most Outstanding Player in Big XII Tournament despite loss (all Chuck Howley). Durant is all conference and Player of the Year in the Universe. In the NCAA tournament Texas is a four seed and loses to five seed USC by nineteen points.
2007-8 Texas is a one seed in the Big XII Tournament and goes 2-1. Texas loses to two seed Kansas by ten points. AJ Abrams, DJ Augustin, and Damion James are all Big XII Tournament. Augustin is all conference. In the NCAA Tournament Texas is a two seed and loses to one seed Memphis by 18 points in the regional final.
2008-9 Texas is a five seed in the Big XII Tournament and goes 2-1. Texas loses to nine seed Baylor by six points in the semi-finals. Dexter Pittman is all Big XII Tournament. Texas is a seven seed in the NCAA and loses to two seed Duke by five points.
2009-10 – (No need to rehash)
The good in the Barnes’ era: We have gone to five Big XII Tournament title games. We have been to one Final Four, three Elite Eights, and five Sweet Sixteens. That is a good record of achievement and Barnes has taken us to the NCAA Tournament every one of his twelve years here. We've had great players (two national players of the year) and now we even have several kids playing major minutes in the NBA. That is awesome. However…
Seven times Texas has been beaten by a lower seed in the Big XII Tournament. Seven years Barnes has been beaten by double digits in the conference tournament. Barnes is 0-5 in Conference Tournament Finals: five losses – with large leads in two of those games by my memory. Given his comments in ESPN the Magazine, I guess he doesn’t care that much. But I hate being the Buffalo Bills of Big XII basketball. Until we climb this mountain, I find it highly unlikely we find our way back to the Final Four unless TJ finds a way to get his eligibility back. We have to be about winning Rick if we are ever going to cut down a net. And Peter, with all due respect, I was at Texas during the BMW era and back then our basketball program produced a lot more winning and excitement than the football team did. Just expecting us to be football dominant all the time led to our downfall in the late eighties and nineties. And by downfall, I don't just mean wins and losses. I sat in some awfully empty stadiums watching Texas football in the late eighties.
In the NCAA Tournament, Barnes’ squads have been beaten by lower seeds eight out of twelve years. (One of those defeats was by the eventual champion: Carmelo Anthony [Syracuse]). Texas has been beaten by double digits five times. This may be because we are over-hyped, but we have been upset quite a bit over the years. And several times, even in the Durant year, we have gotten our @#$’s handed to us. Again, I worry about our coach in winning time. He has got to improve his in-game coaching when the heat is on. Just some data for our conversation to continue...
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This goes back to having a coaching staff around Barnes
with more experience and teaching abilities than the young staff we currently have. We all know Barnes isn’t exactly a great X’s and O’s guy on offense, but great assistants (he’s had some but they moved on to greener pastures) can cover that up. Mack Brown isn’t exactly known for his X’s and O’s, but his staff is excellent.
by goingforthecorner on Mar 22, 2010 12:49 AM CDT reply actions
I wonder if there is a Muschamp equivalent of an offensive assistant
lurking out there that we could hire. And how long he would stay if we were able to get him. I’m still a huge Barnes fan because of where he’s taken us but clearly he needs some help.
Excellent post, many good points. With respect to upsets, it’s interesting that Kansas has now been bumped three of the last six years by Bucknell, Bradley and now Northern Iowa. So we’re not the only ones. Some years the cards just don’t fall the way you’d like.
"You've got to think lucky. If you fall into a mudhole, check your back pocket - you might have caught a fish" -- Darrell Royal
by SpiritOfTheFedora on Mar 22, 2010 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Great Fan Post
Thanks for taking the time to write a coherent, research-driven Fan Post. We’ve had quite a few great ones lately. Always appreciated.
I’m shutting down for the night but will say, briefly, that I think it’s fairer to say that the defenses of Barnes have been limited to “Should we replace him?” I don’t think those of us who are defending him on that ground are at all unaware of his weaknesses, or disinterested in looking closely at them.
In any case, thanks for putting all this together in one place.
You ain't hurt...
I would completely agree with this. nt
"A lot of people look for the easy way to do anything, in swimming there is no easy way." - Eddie Reese
Maybe I am blind?
but it seems that we do not run plays….What is the deal with running around hoping to beat them with pure athleticism? We haven’t run a play since we got Kevin Durant. Time to get back to basics..By the way if you can’t make a free throw…go have a seat. Bad free throw percentage comes from poor coaching and everyone knows it.
"Bad free throw percentage comes from poor coaching and everyone knows it."
In so far as you’re saying that bad free throw shooting is more related to bad coaching than bad rebounding or bad field goal shooting, I disagree.
You HIt it on the Head
Couldn’t agree more with your comments, but I’d be interested in knowing how many upsets we pulled off in OUR favor during winning time for comparison sake – the ratio is bad I assume but just curious on this statistic
Great Point
I should have included that in the original post. And you’re right. It’s ugly. In 2002 we beat higher seeded Mississippi State (3) when we were a 6 seed. Unfortunately the only other time we have beaten a higher seeded team in a tournament was in the 2009 Big XII tournament. We beat 4 seed Kansas State in the quarterfinals. We were a 5 seed. Not good. Something I’m sure Vegas gambling pros know about us.
By the way...
at Clemson, Barnes (from 95 to 98) in the ACC Tournament pulled two upsets. In 96 as 6 seed Clemson beat 3 seed North Carolina. In 98, Clemson upset 4 seed Wake Forest by 19 as the 5 seed. He never went to a conference title game or won more than one game in the ACC Tournament.
In the NCAAs he never beat a higher seeded team while at Clemson. In 96 as a nine seed he lost to eight seed Georgia by seven points. In 97 he lost to the one seed Minnesota in the Sweet Sixteen by six points as a four seed. In 98, his Tigers were a 6 seed and were upset by Western Michigan (11 seed) by 3 points in the opening round.
Thanks for the Stats
…and YES, we probably do need to prove we can win by taking a Big 12 tourney title. Success breeds success, and to finish as a conference tournament champion, for ONCE, would be nice and a heck of a confidence boost for the Horns
Once again, an excellent Post and very viable arguments.
This number can be a little misleading. It may be a little more meaningful for the Big 12 tournery because of all the games (even that can be misleading if you get the toughest Big 12 N opponents at home), but seeding in the NCAA is a subjective thing. Sometimes, as I believe was the case with the Big East this year, you get a bump just for being in that conference.
For instance, there is no way ND should have been a 6 seed. They were 9 seed at best. They played ODO and were ‘upset’ because the selection comittee overseeded them, not because they were the better team going in.
Then there is getting a bump because of your school’s name. This happens all the time. UT is popular enough AND it has had enough recent success that it will get the benefit of the doubt and get a bump every once in a while.
It also makes sense moneywise to seed UT (and other large popular schools) a little higher than they deserve to give them an easier path and the chance to play an extra game or two. That means much better ratings for the tournament and more money. And lets not kid ourselves, this is all about the money.
What a difference four years can make
I wrote a very similar fan post back after 2006 (then known as “Diaries”), citing the same facts regarding seeding and upsets. Needless to say, I agree with most of the above, but back in 2006, this information was greeted by most with an online tongue lashing as the common sentiment was that since Barnes always had us as such a high seed, there were few chances for us to upset anyone while most losses were going to come to lower seeds simply due to the odds. I wasn’t calling for Barnes’ job, just pointing out it would be nice for him to occasionally overachieve.
It got so bad, I deleted that post a few months later to avoid it staining my permanent record…
You deleted a post
two months after posting it?
"A lot of people look for the easy way to do anything, in swimming there is no easy way." - Eddie Reese
Interesting Overall Records
Big 12 Tourney- 16-12 (.571)
NCAA Tourney- 16-12 (.571)
If my math is right…
I still think we over look the fact that during the Penders Era the Sweet 16 was unheard of… Now during the Barnes Era the Sweet 16 is an expectation and the goal is Nat’l title or Final 4.
I do think you are spot on in pointing out the Necessity of winning the Big 12 Tourney. We have always been Out-shot (OU) or Out-coached (UK) in the end in that tournament most often by OU and KU. Just like when Mack finally won the Big 12 he took down the Nat’l Title. I think that may be the case for Rick as well, but it will take Humilty and Adaptation two things that Mack has proven are strengths.
Penders went to the
Elite 8 as a 10 seed in 1990 and the Sweet 16 as a 10 seed in 1997.
Should have rephrased...
Always felt like with Penders the Sweet 16 was the Final 4 and The Elite 8 was a Championship….
Just meant to say at least with Barnes the Final 4 & Nat’l title are in proper perspective with Sweet 16s to be enjoyed but not always satisfying
by HornsUpInLA on Mar 22, 2010 11:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Guess who's Tournament Record this is
09 – Lost to a lower seed
08 – Lost to a lower seed
07 – Lost to a lower seed in the first round
06 – Lost to a lower seed
05 – Lost to a lower seed
04 – Lost to a lower seed
03 – Lost to a seed only 1 better
02 – Lost to a lower seed
This ridiculously under performing team is Duke.
Duke ACC Conference Tournament record:
99 – Champion
00 – Champion
01 – Champion
02 – Champion
03 – Champion
05 – Champion
06 – Champion
09 – Champion
10 – Champion
post season tournament championships since 99: Duke – 9 Texas – 0
I think they hang banners for conference tournament championships and print out great t-shirts.
by pantherchap on Mar 22, 2010 10:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Post-Conference Exhibition Champions
If you are projected safely to advance to the NCAA tournament, the conference tournament becomes a post-season exhibition. All they are are money grabs.
Speak for yourself
I bet the kids from Duke and Carolina would tell you different, as would the kids from Kansas, and true basketball fans. I want a conference tournament championship.
by pantherchap on Mar 23, 2010 11:19 PM CDT up reply actions
So Eskimohorn is not a true basketball fan?
Just because he does not see value in tournament championship?
I see you don’t have a profile image. Might I suggest one for you:
Yep
That’s what I’m saying. Like the picture, too.
by pantherchap on Mar 24, 2010 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions
I like the irony of the first sentence....
Rick Barnes in the WAKE of the 2010 collapse
Maybe irony isn’t the right word, but I had to laugh reading the first sentence. Good points though.
Hook Em!
Nice Post
I was at UT during the BMW days. I remember when you could watch the team under Weltlich and have a conversation with someone on the other side of the arena….
I remember one time
Four of us managed to mount a yell loud enough to be heard on TV: “Block that kick!”
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
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