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Realignment Chronicles: Realignment 101

In the discussion of last week's first installment of Realignment Chronicles, it was suggested that a comprehensive guide be prepared covering the basic issues conference realignment for those who haven't been following the minutia of realignment possibilities as closely as certain people who have no life me.

So, without further ado, after the jump, Realignment 101.

Star-divide

Why might conference realignment happen?  Because the Big 10 is hungry, the Pac 10 is feeling left behind, and the SEC is cranky.

Many have believed for years that the Big 10 would eventually expand by one school to get to the 12 schools required under present NCAA rules to stage a conference championship game.  And while having the ability to have such a game might be a pleasant by-product of its current exploration of expansion, what seems to be fueling the need to expand is the appetite of the unexpectedly profitable Big Ten Network (BTN).  Skeptically launched in 2006, the BTN has proven its naysayers wrong.  The exact amount of profitability per school is questionable and might be worthy of further exploration in a future edition of the Realignment Chronicles, but it suffices for our purposes today to state that each Big 10 school earns a lot more as a result of the conference's television contract than each Big XII school does.  So, yes, Northwestern makes more on its conference's TV contracts than Texas.  And perhaps more importantly, Northwestern makes a lot more than Mizzou or Nebraska.

And with feeding the BTN, and not the addition of a conference championship game, driving the Big 10's investigating the benefits of expansion, it is quite possible that the conference will expand to 14 or even 16 teams in a quest to pick up schools in lucrative markets or in Nebraska to expand the footprint of the network and allow the conference to charge cable companies more for carrying the network where it's already carried.

Meanwhile, the Pac 10 has indicated that it, too, is exploring the possibility of expanding, presumably to 12 schools.  Despite the greater noise coming from the Midwest, quite a few observers believe that the fact that the Pac 10's television contracts are expiring soon will lead the Pac 10, and not the Big 10, to make the first move so that the conference will be able to start negotiating a better TV contract this summer.  The Pac 10 is pretty much in the same boat with the Big XII in terms of general dissatisfaction with the amount of TV revenue coming in.

And lurking in the background of all of this is the SEC.  SEC Commissioner Mike Silve recently dropped a not-so-subtle hint that a move by the Big 10 to expand by several schools might require the SEC to respond in kind to preserve its preeminent place in the marketplace.

So how much do we know about what's actually going on?  Not a whole hell of a lot.  Pretty much everything that is actually known about what is going on is discussed in the section above.

Virtually everything else you might see here or elsewhere -- that such-and-such conference has invited this school or that school, or that School X will move to this conference but won't move to that conference -- is purely speculative.  And the absence of many real facts has led to some really fantastic rumors out there.

Rumors?  Such as? Focusing just on Texas-centric rumors, I have seen all of the following rumors about Texas being floated over the last couple of week:

  • Texas has expressed an interest in moving to the Pac 10 but has asked the Pac 10 to get rid of its "dead weight" (presumably Washington State) first before Texas would engage in further conversations with the conference.
  • The Pac 10 has reached out to gauge the interest of Texas and Texas A&M in joining the conference.  A&M was interested, but Texas was not.
  • Texas and Notre Dame are jointly negotiating entry into the Big 10 under a plan which would allow each school to play one less conference game a year in order for the two schools to play an additional OOC game.  Under the plan, if Texas and, say, Ohio State both went undefeated, OSU would win the Big 10 since its 8-0 record would trump Texas' 7-0 record.  There would be no conference championship game despite the addition of enough schools to allow the Big 10 to stage one.
  • Negotiations between the Big 10 and Texas are hung up on UT's insistence that the conference championship game be played in Texas on a regular basis.
  • Texas would prefer the Big XII to blow up so that it could form its own "tomato can" conference, comprised of schools like Fresno State and such whom Texas could domineer, which would virtually ensure that the Horns would win the conference and the BCS berth each year.
  • Texas will try and bring the University of Houston along wherever it goes, since Bill Powers' championing of UH's academic goals of achieving Tier One status means that Texas wants UH to be an equal partner on the football field as well.

You don't have to have the brains of an Acho brother to realize that these rumors are pure, unadulterated beergut.  Take pretty much anything you read about what is supposedly happening, especially completely unsourced articles emerging from oddball sites, with a huge grain of salt.

Even if we know little in the way of hard facts, are there any facts we can reasonably assume to be true?  Ah, excellent question!

It was accurately pointed out in the comments section of last week's Realignment Chronicles that each school's balancing of the athletic, academic, geographic, financial, cultural and political concerns in making the best possible decision can and will be very complex.  Texas, perhaps more than any other school, has layers of complexity in making its decision, layers which we can only begin to fathom.

But, on the flip side, the actual number of options available for Texas, or any other school, are pretty limited after that complex balancing act occurs.  Texas has more options than any other school on the realignment table, but even these options can be listed very quickly: stay in the Big XII, go independent, or move to the Big 10, Pac 10 or SEC.  (And, of those options, most BONers who've been following this issue closely tend to discount our chances of going to the SEC or fending out for ourselves as an independent.) Most schools in the mix probably only have two, or perhaps three, options open.

I would implore you to keep this in mind when coming up with realignment scenarios, or analyzing the realignment scenarios of others:

KISS.  Keep It Simple Stupid.

Don't get overly complex.  Don't devise schemes which have the Pac 10 splitting in two, or which have the Southwest Conference rising from the ashes, or which have the SEC booting existing members just because it can.

With that in mind, I would recommend following these Golden Rules of Realignment.  Disregard these rules, and prepare to be mocked:

  • No school will be leaving the Big 10 for any other conference.
  • No school will be leaving the SEC for any other conference. It would be financial malpractice for Arkansas to leave the SEC to join the Big XII, so stop scheming about the Hogs being a potential replacement for a departing Big XII school.
  • All 10 schools of the Pac 10 will still be in the same conference when this is said and done. This is essentially the same rule as the first two, but the lawyer in me wants to preserve some sort of technical wiggle room for the minute possibility that there could be something like a "all Pac 10 schools + select Big XII schools = brand new conference" in the same manner in which the Big XII was formed.  (Note that I said minute possibility.  For the purposes of KISS, I would just assume it's an impossibility.)  No one's being kicked out of the Pac 10, and the same geographic isolation which minimizes its TV revenues also acts as a security blanket to keep its members from being poached by the more prosperous Big 10.
  • No conference which is scrambling to save itself will boot out existing members.  No, Baylor and ISU aren't going anywhere so long as the Big XII survives, and they especially aren't going anywhere if the Big XII is in trouble.  Keen observers will note that the Big East violated this very rule when it expelled Temple a few years back, but ISU and Baylor are not what Temple had become by any stretch of the imagination. And Temple was a football-only member of the Big East to boot.
  • The pool of potential expansion teams for the Big XII is limited to non-BCS schools.  There has been some discussion about the Big XII being proactive, but the reality of the first three rules listed above limit who the Big XII could add.  With the potential exception of orphan schools from the Big East if that conference explodes (Louisville?), the pool of potential invitees is limited to non-BCS conferences, presumably just the MWC and C-USA.  Though Utah has actually had some success over the past few years (Quick: name all schools which have finished in the top two in hoops and football during the Big XII era. Answer: Florida, Ohio State and Utah.) and might be an upgrade athletically from Mizzou, the pickings start to become really slim really quickly.

Also, keep in mind that academics will kill certain school's chances of landing in conferences, particularly the Pac 10, no matter how much athletic or geographic sense it might make. If you read a proposed realignment scheme that has Boise State or Fresno State heading to the Pac 10, you can stop reading and move to the next article, because Stanford would never allow that to happen.

So who's heading to the Big Ten? Probably some combination of one to five of the following schools, which can be grouped as realistic contenders (Missouri, Nebraska, Rutgers, Pitt and Syracuse) to safety schools (UConn) to longshots (Maryland) to longshot home runs (Notre Dame, Texas and Texas A&M).  (Note: A&M is considered a "home run" because, if Texas were to be invited, A&M might need to be brought along for the ride.  I don't think it'd be the "home run" on its own.)

The hot rumor of the moment is that the Big 10 is looking to invite NU, Mizzou, Rutgers and Notre Dame.  The former three are pretty much considered locks to accept invites, while ND remains a wild card.  If ND accepts, the Big 10 would immediately look to at a 16th school.  If ND declines, the Big Ten might stand pat at 14, at least for the near future.  Again, this is merely a rumor, and there's no way to confirm or deny whether this is accurate, although there may be some fire to go along with the Mizzou smoke.  I have my doubts as to whether this will hold up.

Why would NU and Mizzou want to leave the Big XII?  I think I've made my position on NU clear, and as for Mizzou, the Tigers have the rare opportunity to prove that they can be mediocre non-entities in three major conferences in less than two decades.  Very few schools ever have that chance.

Seriously, though, it's pretty much a no-brainer for both schools to accept invites if offered.  The relative value of the increase in television revenues from moving from the Big XII to the Big 10 is much more important for those schools than it would be for a wealthy athletic department like UT's.  Texas could afford to leave those extra dollars on the table.  I'm not sure Mizzou can.

Add on top of that the ability to leave behind a conference which Texas supposedly dominates, and we can start looking forward to Rutgers-Mizzou games (now that screams "Big Ten football!") on the fifth BTN auxiliary channel in Octobers in the near future.

(And what would be the over/under on the number of years it would take either Tom Osborne Nebraska or Mizzou to start publicly griping over Michigan's and Ohio State's domination of conference affairs?  I say three.)

We're Texas.  Can't we ignore everything else going on and do what we damn well please?  Maybe, maybe not.

Even though I've made my advocacy for a move to the Big 10 clear over the past few months, I think it's fair to say that most Longhorn fans and supporters, including me, would prefer that Texas stay where it is unless it has to move.  The question becomes at what point in the process a move might be prudent to avoid being stuck in a bad, bad place.  I tend to think early in the process; other very sharp minds believe Texas can hold out for quite a while without having to rush a decision.

Assuming that the Big 10 does go ahead and make a move, and I think that's a pretty safe assumption, let me present a couple of extremes of what could happen:

  • Scenario One: The Containment Scenario. The Big Ten fails to land the two big fish ostensibly available, Notre Dame and Texas, and settles for adding Nebraska, Mizzou and Rutgers.  The Pac 10 crunches the numbers and concludes that expansion only makes sense if it can lure Texas.  The SEC isn't alarmed by the Big 10's addition of three schools which haven't won conference championships since the last century and elects not to pursue a tit-for-tat expansion. The Big East is nicked but can retool by simply adding one school, perhaps Memphis. The Big XII simply reloads by adding Utah (which is still free given the Pac 10's refusal to expand) and BYU.
  • Scenario Two: The Conference Realignment Armageddon Scenario. The Big Ten expands by five schools, adding Nebraska, Mizzou, Rutgers, Notre Dame and Syracuse after Texas turns down the conference (or expresses no interest at all).  The Pac 10 concludes that expansion makes sense even without Texas and invites Colorado and Utah after UT declines an invite.  The SEC is sufficiently alarmed by a five-team Big 10 expansion which includes big fish Notre Dame and starts making its plans to expand by four schools.  Smelling Big XII blood in the water, the SEC approaches UT, A&M, OU and Okie State.  The latter three, not wanting to remain in a dying conference, decide together that they will bolt the Big XII regardless of what Texas does.

The first scenario highlights the danger of Texas making a move too soon when it doesn't need to, while the second scenario illustrates a situation in which UT inaction would lead to having to choose joining the SEC (presumed to be an unwelcome choice for UT) or remain in a conference more or less indistinguishable from the Mountain West.  What will actually happen remains to be determined, but one would have to imagine that Powers and Dodds are working quietly behind the scenes to plan for all contingencies and to shape events in such a way that will allow Texas to pursue its preferred outcome.

So what will Texas do? That's the million dollar question.  It's been the question which has spurred many debates already on BON and which will continue to spur debates until everything is eventually settled.  And the answer is, quite simply, no one knows, and anyone who claims to have greater insight is merely speculating like the rest of us.  I would doubt that either Powers or Dodds have any great level of confidence right now as to how everything will shake out.

I personally am beginning to back away from my prior prediction that Texas would wind up in the Big 10.  Is it still possible?  Yes, but applying the KISS methodology to what has been unfolding, I have to start thinking that a cigar is just a cigar and that the lack of any legitimate contact or expressed interest between the Big 10 and Texas is indicative of a great likelihood that we're not moving north.

My working theory now is that Texas will resist moving to another conference so long as a safe harbor exists for an eventual move to either the Big 10 or the Pac 10.  With that in mind, if the Big 10 appears as though it will settle for a 14-school conference by adding a trio of schools which do not include Notre Dame, the door would probably remain open for Texas to join that conference if it needed to.  And if the numbers crunchers for the Pac 10, a conference which has been very conservative historically, decide that expansion only makes sense if Texas is one of the schools -- and that's quite possible, because geography dictates that the Pac 10's options are very limited -- Texas can defer having to make a move so long as the door remained open to join that conference down the road.

The question becomes at what point a move would be prudent to avoid winding up in a situation like the second scenario laid out above.  Unless, of course, to the shock of many of us, UT wouldn't mind being in the SEC if it came down to it.

So Texas can fend for itself and will almost certainly be OK at the end of the day.  Who won't be? The leftovers of the Big XII and the Big East if realignment spins out of control.  Certain schools, like Kansas and West Virginia, might not have natural homes if realignment destroys the Big XII and the Big East, but they intrinsically seem too good to be left out of the BCS conference mix.  One would think that, somehow, someway, the Jayhawks and Mountaineers would find homes.  I wouldn't be so confident, though, if I were a fan of Iowa State, Cincinnati or South Florida, and perhaps even Baylor.

How soon will all of this happen?  As quickly as this summer, but more likely over a couple of years, especially with all of the trickle-down realignments an initial expansion by the Big 10 or Pac 10 might lead to.  The Big 10 has stated that it will take its time over a 12 to 18 month period, but I sense that the demands of the news cycle in the internet era, with its never-satiated rumor mill, might drive a decision to be made sooner rather than later.  And the Pac 10 might need to make a decision by the end of June of this year so that it can commence negotiations on its next round of television contracts with the knowledge of who, exactly, will comprise the Pac 10.

On the other hand, DeLoss Dodds is negotiating an extension on his contract, and it seems in part to ensure continuity at the top throughout the realignment process.  Without an extension, Dodds contract wouldn't expire until August 31, 2011.  Read into that what you will.

So there's your Realignment 101.  I went on a lot more than I anticipated and didn't even get to touch a myriad of other subjects which will factor into what Texas does, including political considerations (covered in last week's chronicles), how a possible Longhorn Sports Network will play into this, the extent to which academics will drive athletics (or vice versa), and so on.  We can explore those issues more in depth in future editions of the Chronicles.

(Author's Note: Literally a minute before I was going to publish, I received from learned hand a very well written [would you expect anything less?] email on this subject.  Reading it through, I think it works better as a separate but complementary piece on the basic issues surrounding realignment, so instead of trying to incorporate his words into mine, I will wait for him to post it below in the comments for your reading pleasure.)

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Everything depends on how Beebe handles the upcoming meeting and what happens with the network contract. If he can work a deal with the PAC 10, the conference will probably stay in tact. It is all about the money.

I would not want to be Dan Beebe right now.

by dimecoverage on May 17, 2010 10:04 AM CDT reply actions  

Alliance with the Pac 10

Count me as being skeptical that an alliance based upon a loose confederation of the Pac 10 and Big XII schools solely for the purposes of television would fend off the realignment wolves for more than a couple of years at most. This DMN Q&A with Dodds is useful in its reminding us that the SWC and Big 8 tried something similar in the SWC’s last days. We saw how that turned out.

by Hopkins Horn on May 17, 2010 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

It was a different time, though. You may be too young to remember the grand old SW Conf., but I’m not. A lot of people saw the handwriting on the wall, so to speak. At that point the conference needed to completely revamp or just shut down. It wasn’t a good idea to start any deals.

The Big 12 is only in the position of losing members simply because of the money. Beebe needs to do something now before the exodus. The SEC and Big 10 wouldn’t be interested in a network alliance. Aligning with the ACC is clearly not an option as far as I’m concerned. Who is left? The MWC? The WAC?

by dimecoverage on May 17, 2010 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

Trust me . . .

. . . I’m not too young. :(

I was thinking that my age, which led to specific experiences during my college years at UT, might be influencing my doubts about the viability of a retooled Big XII. I was at UT during the dying days of the conference. Those younger than me might have attended UT during its glory days and cannot possibly imagine what DKRTMS would be like if Texas were mediocre. Those older than me can recall the glory days of DKR and Earl and saw how good Texas could be, even in a Texas-centric conference.

Meanwhile, I saw with my own eyes awful football and half-filled stadiums (imagine half of the tickets in the west-side upper deck and the entire former horseshoe unsold). And the atmosphere was d-e-a-d dead. Oh, there were all the ritual cheers and such, but it struck me that those participating were doing so with all the enthusiasm of communist party rallies in the dying days of the Soviet Block in Eastern Europe. Oh, people clapped along, but was it because they wanted to or because they felt they had to? I don’t want to see that ever again.

So I shutter whenever anyone proposes that Texas, and the Big XII, could survive by plugging in the likes of a TCU or an SMU or a UH.

by Hopkins Horn on May 17, 2010 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

You forgot....

and those who did show up, didn’t do so until close to the end of the first quarter and more than likely were gone before the end of the third quarter. And wear orange…where is your fashion sense? Please God, don’t let us go back to them dark days.

We're Texas...and you're NOT

by Bevoboy94 on May 17, 2010 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'll confess

Even though I was always there well before kickoff, I was more often than not so bored out of my mind that I was usually gone by the end of the third quarter, particularly on days when a great game elsewhere was on TV (BC-ND in 1993, for example) and I could just wander back up to the law school to watch.

by Hopkins Horn on May 17, 2010 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Growing up in Chicagoland

as a Notre Dame-hater, this

hung in my room for years.

Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.

by Kyle McCann't on May 18, 2010 4:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

It seems that there is actually talk between the PAC 10 and Texas, according to Nick Saban. So, who knows at this point?

We do have to consider Jr. Berkeley is going to be uncomfortable for little brother when he tags along.

I see the SEC as a better fit because of geography and money. I see the meltdown on academics coming shortly.

by dimecoverage on May 17, 2010 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

Berkeley

As learned hand mentions in his email to me, which hopefully will be published soon as a comment, former UT President Berdahl wound up as UC’s Chancellor, an dis still on the faculty there and is the president of the AAU. He presumably would be a good character witness for A&M if it ever came down to that.

by Hopkins Horn on May 17, 2010 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

I’m more concerned about Jr.’s metal health when he sees all those Berkeley students.:-)

That ad about something being priceless has hit the saturation point, but wouldn’t you want to be at the first Cal-A&M game in Berkeley? Priceless is the only word I can come up with.

I’ve been off-realignment topic too long now. Back to the discussion.

by dimecoverage on May 17, 2010 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

They're all weird . . .

. . . so maybe they’d have more in common than we imagine. :)

by Hopkins Horn on May 17, 2010 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

Sorry you can’t hear sarcasm through the interwebs.

I would never consider the ACC an option, allegiance, etc. for anything.

by dimecoverage on May 17, 2010 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

ACC television contract

Details here.

It’s an interesting development. The ACC struck a much better deal than most would have anticipated in this economy, and Fox emerged as a competitive bidder (has Fox ever before this been a player for broadcasting regular season games over the air, as opposed to merely on FSN?).

I’ve always dismissed on of DeLoss Dodds’ standard lines — “we’ll get ours” in the next round of Big XII contract negotiations — as wishful thinking, but with the ACC benchmark, perhaps he’s closer to the mark than I would have guessed, and with a little patience, the gap between the Big XII and the Big 10/SEC will narrow.

by Hopkins Horn on May 17, 2010 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

The Big 12 has a lot more to offer than the ACC. We are just stuck in the ABC/ESPN contract until 2016. The contract with Fox runs out next year.

If schools can hold out, the Big 12 should be fine after that point.

Peter has mentioned this, but the conference really needs to explore other media/internet possibilities. There is more money to be made out there in the interwebs. They just need to be proactive.

by dimecoverage on May 17, 2010 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

There is more money to be made out there in the interwebs.

It’s too bad Mangino was canned, because Mangino+webcam= . . . well, I suppose I should stop right there.

by Hopkins Horn on May 17, 2010 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

Step 1: Mangino
Step 2: ?
Step 3: Profit

by Texas Wahoo on May 17, 2010 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

Speaking of

I can’t help but think of striking Canadians every time someone says that the conference should get that internet money.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on May 17, 2010 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

Is the ACC’s deal really that surprising? They are in the heart of quite a few large populations areas. I think the only reason it is considered surprising is because they are viewed as not being that competitive recently (true at the very top, but if you look at the regular season and bowl games, the ACC’s #2 through the middle of the packe can can compete with anyone). Miami, FSU, VaTech, and NC can draw crowds and ratings in football and basketball comprable to anyone.

Is there a chance that Beebe is gone by the time we have to negotiate our new contract? He did a pretty bad job last time. I don’t want hime in charge again. Just based on what happend last time (us ahead of the ACC by a small amount), i wouldn’t be too surprised if we could get somewhere around 170 mil.

By the way, what happened to the talks of an ACC/Big 12 TV deal similar to what is being discussed with the Pac10? I read ’legitimate" news articles talking about this before the talk seemed to switch to the Pac 10.

by UT_BKC on May 17, 2010 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

On a side note regarding the ACC,

while they have been mentioned as a) a candidate to pick the carcass of the dying Big East and b) a target of the SEC if the 16-team, Big Ten Armageddon scenario plays out, people are now starting to talk about c) them being a target of the Big Ten’s expansion push. As a Big Ten fan, I’ve been on the Maryland-over-Mizzou bandwagon since day one. Additionally on this point, the (for) now-debunked 4-team expansion rumor from last week would make another ACC school susceptible to the Big Ten’s hunger pangs; it is thought by some that the 16th spot would be left open not so the Big Ten could add another choice if Notre Dame accepted, but rather to offer Notre Dame their choice of running mate (read: Boston College) as an incentive.

Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.

by Kyle McCann't on May 18, 2010 4:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

It would be almost as unlikely

as Texas joining the Big Ten simply because of the long tradition of that league. However, there is some similar sentiment in ACC circles that the expansion did much the same to that conference as it did to the old Big 8. Many coaches in particular aren’t happy about the way that the basketball brand has been diluted with the addition of 3 football-first institutions. However, the conference was just able to swing a rather lucrative TV deal, so everyone may be inclined to stand pat for now.

Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.

by Kyle McCann't on May 18, 2010 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

I just can't see Maryland giving up their rivalries with UVA, UNC, Duke, etc.

I think the heart of the ACC is much more cohesive than the heart of the Big XII. Perhaps the splitting of the Big XII into geographical divisions caused some of the fracturing. If the ACC had a north and a south, perhaps there would be more of that between the two sides. As it is, most people don’t even know what the divisions are or who is in them.

by Texas Wahoo on May 18, 2010 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Footprints

The Big Ten’s primary interest is expanding its footprint so it can pull in more TV dollars for its BT Network. Other conferences will also be looking more at expanding footprint rather than simply adding schools already in their region. So I guess the Big XII could add Houston and TCU, but the Big XII could gain more and get in the SEC’s face (and markets) by adding Memphis and Southern Miss to push the Big XII footprint farther east. This would tie up an impressive media market area from Memphis to New Orleans, and add some impressive hoops and football along the way.

by EarlyDan on May 17, 2010 10:51 AM CDT reply actions  

Top tv markets.

Adding Memphis and So. Miss would not help. TCU sounds like a great idea, but no one other than Horned Frog students and alumni care about the program. TCU wasn’t a draw when they were in the SW Conf. and they won’t be now.

by dimecoverage on May 17, 2010 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

South Florida!

Just so that OU fans will get confused as to who thy’re rooting against when they do the upside down horns.

by Texas Wahoo on May 17, 2010 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

Outside the box . . .

. . . but I’m not sure adding those schools would tie up those television markets. It’s akin to suggesting that adding UH and SMU to the SEC would tie up Texas for the SEC.

And I think the collective schools of the SEC would laugh in our faces if a Big XII attempt expand into SEC territory were met with 50,000 empty seats at the Liberty Bowl the first time Baylor came to play Memphis.

by Hopkins Horn on May 17, 2010 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

Why not

Assuming the scenario that mizzou and Nebraska Leave, why not go for tcu as one of the teams to replace them? And make the other one Houston. That way we could add two up and coming teams with alot of media attention. We could then realign the big 12 moving ou and osu to the north or something like that. I dunno just a thought. Tcu and Houston seem like they would be more than capable replacements.

Hotty Toddy and Hook'em Horns.

by Olemissreb451 on May 17, 2010 11:02 AM CDT via mobile reply actions  

My personal opinion . . .

. . . is that Texas needs to bolt the conference one step before the best available replacement school on the table is another school from Texas.

by Hopkins Horn on May 17, 2010 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hmm, should've taken the time to hyperlink...and edit.

If anyone actually reads this and wonders who/what I’m talking about let me know and I’ll post a link to the background.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on May 17, 2010 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

It looks like 7 schools get the top Moody's rating:

“Indiana University is part of an elite group of public institutions with a Moody’s Aaa rating, including the University of Michigan, the University of Texas, the University of Virginia, the University of North Carolina, the University of Washington and Purdue University.”

by Texas Wahoo on May 17, 2010 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

I had no idea about the credit ratings.

Do you know why Indiana and Purdue have such good credit ratings. Does it have to do with the amount of state funding? The rest of the universities are all what I would consider the top public universities (with the obvious exception of the UC schools).

by Texas Wahoo on May 17, 2010 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

I’m not exactly sure but my first thought is that all of the top credit schools probably have low debt/capital ratios.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on May 17, 2010 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

Does there exist anywhere . . .

. . . a comprehensive chart showing in one place how all the major schools rank on these “best of” charts? It would be interesting to see these Moody rankings side-by-side with US News and all the other rankings to start looking for trends and outliers.

by Hopkins Horn on May 17, 2010 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

You gather the info, I’ll make the chart.

by dimecoverage on May 17, 2010 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

Big XII/Pac 10 Alliance

Seems feasable short term with Big X adding 3 schools over the next 2-3 years.

by DaGoose on May 17, 2010 11:45 AM CDT via mobile reply actions  

This is great stuff, guys

Tons of time and work by Hopkins Horn and Learned Hand. Highly educational.

I have one question: Is maybe all the Big Ten-related stuff a rattling of sabers in an effort to get Notre Dame into the Big Ten fold?

by edsp on May 17, 2010 11:58 AM CDT reply actions  

Quite possibly, yes

The consensus amongst the realignment nerds at Frank’s blog seems to be that the Big 10 would like to land either ND or us, so if there’s saber rattling going on, it could be just as likely directed in our direction as it is at ND.

by Hopkins Horn on May 17, 2010 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Definitely to some extent

I’m certain it is galling to BTN execs that Notre Dame is the default team for much of their network footprint and directly competes on a weekly basis for eyeballs in that footprint. But I don’t think expansion is that simple, because adding a region with a different default affiliation (i.e. Texas) would mean that the BTN/ABC could schedule directly against ND without the same competitive disadvantage.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on May 17, 2010 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

And as Notre Dame is concerned

their inclusion flies in the face of so many of these numbers you and Hopkins have assembled. Notre Dame is a fantastic school, but one with a definitive commitment to an undergraduate education steeped in Catholic values. The Big Ten (save Northwestern) are Land Grant universities with the dual mission of providing (relatively) affordable undergraduate educations to their states while taking the lead in research-based graduate studies. It’s an uneasy arrangement to say the least.

Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.

by Kyle McCann't on May 18, 2010 4:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

A lot could depend on events in South Bend

Great posts. ND remains the Big 10’s dream school. It’s in the middle of the region, it’s culturally identical, there are existing rivalries with half the Big 10 teams, and although it’s not a research university, it’s reasonably well known globally for its academics. Also, ND is expanding its research. ND’s AD kept the door open to conference membership in some recent comments, putting everyone into a holding pattern. ND hates to let this talk last for long, so we may see some movement soon, one way or the other. ND is sort of like Jeffcoat to the Big 10 – they’ll wait for their commitment. We’ll see.
One quibble – according to settlement patterns of UT’s oceanography school, most alumni live near oceans.

by Zona on May 17, 2010 12:20 PM CDT reply actions  

Ha, noted

I just used the B-school because A) There are about 70k of them and B) The information is very easy to find.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on May 17, 2010 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why not the SEC?

Am I missing something here? I get three answers when I ask: 1) Texas doesn’t want the competition; 2) Texas doesnt want to share TV revenues; 3) SEC schools arent of a high enough academic caliber. I realize all this equates to money, so maybe I am just stupid, but it just seems like the SEC is always going to be the greatest football conference and that, geographically speaking, it makes a lot more sense to play Arkansas, Ole Miss, or LSU than it does to play Arizona, USC and Cal. Maybe someone could explain it to me. I can’t believe that we are scared of the competition.

by chilimilkjones on May 17, 2010 12:58 PM CDT reply actions  

Scared? No. Wary? Yes

The SEC is the last BCS conference to use partial qualifiers and non-qualifiers. The Big 12 does not, and Nebraska has never been the same since Texas imposed that rule on them at conference formation. The SEC won’t change for Texas, and I doubt Texas will lower itself to that level when Mack Brown doesn’t even abide by JUCO’s. In that event, Texas would enter at a competitive disadvantage.

Recruitniks would know better than I, but I gather the Texas high school partial/non-qualifiers currently disperse across the country. If Texas joined the SEC, expect them to concentrate in the competition, exaggerating the aforementioned competitive disadvantage.

The academics do play a significant role in football, and Texas simply doesn’t have much in common with much of the conference outside of UF, Georgia, and Vandy. Athletically that plays out like this – lower academic standards generally tend to mean lower academic standards for football players, either on entry or passing while in the program. Ex (non-SEC) does Boise State have a significantly pass rate for football players than the general student body? B/C the academic bar for a football scholarship is higher than the bar for general admission. When football players aren’t on the bottom of the curve by default, the coaches lives are easier.

It isn’t just about competition, it’s about even competition. Otherwise Texas volunteers itself to a situation where it faces some of the old ills of the SWC. Could Texas still thrive? Likely, but it would take even more resources to do so, and a downturn would be much more difficult to overcome.

And I haven’t even touched the academic/monetary part, really.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on May 17, 2010 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Texas in the SEC

Although no one would ever come out and say it, I have to think that part of the hesitancy comes from not wanting to be associated with the South. The state his obvious historical ties to that region that the University would not like to remind people of.

by Texas Wahoo on May 17, 2010 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

I made this same argument,

more or less, earlier this week on Frank’s blog. In a need to assert our own unique identity, I think we might protest too much at times at being labeled “southern,” and a reluctance to confuse the boundary even more, I believe, helps to drive anti-Texas-to-the-SEC sentiment.

by Hopkins Horn on May 17, 2010 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

The same situation exists in the Big 12, though. Brown cannot recruit some players because they would bomb out the first semester. (Some of those players go to other conference schools and whine about being overlooked by Texas.) We still thrive and win. Why would the SEC be any different?

What about Florida and Georgia? What do they do with the players that are not like the rest of the student population? Funnel them into Rocks for Jocks classes? I’m not trying to be sarcastic, I really would like to know.

I agree that Texas is a better fit geographically with the SEC. The money ain’t bad, either.

by dimecoverage on May 17, 2010 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Fair point

But then we all agreed to the same set of rules in the beginning.

As for Georgia, they’re a quality team and program but they have one undisputed national championship in over a hundred years. Given the resources available, I think it has something to do with them being a bit of a misfit in the SEC (I said it Bulldogs, if you’re out there please feel free to tell me how you’ve got more in common with Ole Miss, Bama, LSU, Auburn, Arkansas and Tennessee than many ACC schools).

As for Florida, I suppose Urban Meyer could be a witch and Steve Spurrier is a golf prick warlock. I don’t know how to explain a program that lay fallow up until the last twenty years and suddenly rose to prominence.

But, yes, I am presupposing that it’s different if for no other reason than Texas ended partial/non-qualifiers in the Big 12. Though I don’t follow recruiting, I see the talent drain to the SEC to be much more likely than with any other conference, in no small part due to academics. I think you’ll like this article though.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on May 17, 2010 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

This isn’t to beat up any Big 12 school, but a UT diploma may be a tad more difficult to accomplish than a getting a degree from one of the esteemed institutions in a state just north of Texas. So does it matter that we ended the partial/non-qualifiers? Brown still wins with the players he recruits.

The big drawback to the SEC would be the fact that Alabama, Florida, etc. would then have greater access to the Texas talent pool. The players may be more likely to consider a school in another state if they knew they would get to come back home to play. GOBR has a better idea of what motivates recruits to go out of state.

by dimecoverage on May 17, 2010 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's why an unfortunately small percentage of players leave with a diploma

But yeah, I can crunch the numbers and analyze the politics/academics from my comfy chair, but recruiting is way out of my element.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on May 17, 2010 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good point about the graduation rates.

I always worry about the potential talent drain. We don’t need any more poachers.

by dimecoverage on May 17, 2010 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

When talking about the SEC, recruiting is a HUGE issue.

Has anybody noticed how few Texans go to Arkansas? Didn’t used to be that way. Hogs’ good teams from 1960-90 always had lots of folks from the Houston and Dallas areas.

Thirty, 40 years ago, Frank Broyles practically lived in the Houston area during recruiting, and 1 or 2 assistant coaches spent more time in contact with Texas HS coaches than they did any other state’s.

With Texas in the SEC, about 8 games a year would be against schools east of here that currently do not get much talent from Texas. That would change dramatically if Texas joined the SEC. You could make the same argument about the Pac-10, or Big Ten, getting a recruiting boost if Texas joined those leagues. But academic standards and they’re being in very different parts of the country would mitigate some of that.

by edsp on May 17, 2010 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Great point. UA is almost non-existent now as a recruiting competitor here.

I know we’re all biased but there is a lot of truth to this. UT just happens to recruit in a conference where (A) the best talent, by far, is in their own state and (B) Austin & Texas are much more attractive geographical destinations than everyone in the conference, except maybe with the exception of Colorado. That kind of competitive advantage would be a hard thing to let go of in a conference realignment.

by robthecob on May 18, 2010 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

And I bet Austin would be very impressive to some kid living in Podunk, Mississippi.

by dimecoverage on May 18, 2010 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Or it could be terrifying

After moving to the South after three years in Austin, I was astounded by the differing definitions of a “big city.”

To a lot of folks from rural Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama, cities as large as New Orleans are unnerving. The same can be said for many Texas kids who choose College Station, Norman or Waco over Austin.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on May 18, 2010 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

To be fair, New Orleans is unnerving to just about anyone...

I love visiting New Orleans, but “unnerving” seems like a pretty accurate descripter.

by Texas Wahoo on May 18, 2010 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

I hadn’t thought of that. My Aggie relatives hate Austin because of the big city traffic and the liberal atmosphere.

A lot of the SEC schools are in cities smaller than Austin, aren’t they?

by dimecoverage on May 18, 2010 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

In other confernces, this is a valid concern

The big drawback to the SEC would be the fact that Alabama, Florida, etc. would then have greater access to the Texas talent pool.

But the SEC is the one conference with an embarrassment of high school riches in multiple states. Florida, Mississippi and Louisiana just scratch the surface of what is at the disposal talent-wise for that league. Would Texas offer more choices for those programs? Sure, but it’s a two-way street.

Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.

by Kyle McCann't on May 18, 2010 4:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

Florida’s athletics program didn’t get its fund raising act together until Charley Pell really got the Gator Clubs going in the late ’70s and early ’80s. He also got the school put on probation for NCAA violations, but his greatest contribution had nothing to do with on-the-field stuff. He modernized the system behind the scenes so that it was ready to take off when Spurrier arrived in 1990. The subsequent football success brought in even more money and allowed for increased spending on basketball, which happened to get the right guy at the right time when Donovan was hired in the late ’90s.

Bear Bryant said in the ’70s that Florida was a sleeping giant and to watch out if it ever got organized. It made sense because UF was the flagship school of a state with a rapidly growing population. Pell finally put those wheels in motion, and Jeremy Foley took things to their new heights.

Team Speed Kills
SBNation's SEC Blog

by Year2 on May 18, 2010 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don’t know what Georgia does, but I know some majors at Florida (i.e. Sociology, Family and Community Science, etc.) are more popular among athletes than the general population. UF also has taken to having a lot of players attend summer session classes every year so as to spread out the class load and not have anyone taking a higher than average number of classes at once.

Team Speed Kills
SBNation's SEC Blog

by Year2 on May 18, 2010 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

good points, I guess

Im no expert on these matters. It just seems like if Florida can do it, we can do it. And we get to bask in the warm glow of southeastern conference football, which is where the athletics and TV money is always going to be, IMHO.

I am a Texas fan. Period. And Texas home games are very good and getting better, but they do not quite compare to the SEC games I have been to at Georgia, LSU, Tenn, and Ole MIss. Texas only really started encouraging tailgating about 10 years ago and is just starting to catch up with the SEC since Mack Brown came. I would compare away games at SEC schools favorably to going to Columbus a couple of years ago, except that is how it is every single week (except at Vandy which sux). Having said that, Im starting to understand the extra-football politics a little better and all that is reasonable, but if it is a football question alone, it is SEC hands-down all the way IMHO. It just doesn’t make any sense to me to go to the Big 10 and especially not to the Pac-10 (i.e., 11am games in Chicago or 930pm kiickoffs in Beaverton).

FYI, Oxford in two years is going to be awesome! The Mississippi Delta blues, William Faulkner, Jack Daniels, the Grove, Tunica casinos, Memphis and Beale Street all in one weekend. I encourage everyone to go.

Also, all that crap about the South is just that: it is no better in most places in East Texas than it is in most places in Mississippi. If that is a real reason to not go to the SEC, then we are really getting bogged down with abstractions.

by chilimilkjones on May 17, 2010 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

all that crap about the South is just that: it is no better in most places in East Texas than it is in most places in Mississippi. If that is a real reason to not go to the SEC, then we are really getting bogged down with abstractions.

This is an excellent point, because the line between east Texas and Louisiana is very thin indeed. And therein lies a problem, or at least a discontinuity. East Texas has more in common with the South than do the metropolitan areas, which likely have more in common with the Pac 10 and the Big 10 (or at least Chicago).

In my experience at least, the urban/rural distinction has grown to be larger than the north/south/east/west distinction.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on May 17, 2010 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm a Chicagoan married to an East Texan.

My (amateur) observations over the years have been this:

Dallas/Ft. Worth is the embodiment of Texas but with the trappings of urbanity.

East Texas is most definitely the South.

Austin could just as easily be Madison or Berkeley.

Much of rural Texas (excluding the Panhandle and the East) is reminiscent of large swaths of the Midwest, geographically and culturally.

Aggies are weird.

Your Tex-Mex is vastly superior to ours and our (strictly Chicago in this case) Mexican is vastly superior to yours.

Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.

by Kyle McCann't on May 18, 2010 4:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

D/FW is the embodiment of Texas now, not from 1836.

Technology sectors, booming population, big hair, beautiful women, great weather, cultural diversity, wide open spaces in an urban environment. Nothing wrong w/ that opinion. I’ve lived in every region of Texas both urban & rural. D/FW is as “Texas” as any other region out there.

by robthecob on May 18, 2010 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

All of those things also describe Houston just as much as, if not better than, Dallas, except for big hair. I don’t consider Big Hair to be part of the embodiment of Texas now. But then again, I’ve only lived in urban areas of Texas.

Whatever your preference, I was just taking a dig at Dallas.

by Texas Wahoo on May 18, 2010 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

Interesting

Taking a dig at Dallas with the use of Houston. That’s like making fun of a hooker using a crack whore.

"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo

by run Bevo run on May 18, 2010 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

Perhaps I should have said

the “Spirit” of Texas. Houston, while possessing a number of qualities that make it unique, reminds me of a number of other large U.S. cities (except with much worse traffic).

Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.

by Kyle McCann't on May 18, 2010 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

I see Houston as more of the embodiment of Texas in the 21st century, whereas Dallas is more the embodiment of Texas in the 20th century.

I think Dallas is more of the steotype of Texas. I see Texas today as a huge growth area that combines traditional texas culture with immigrants from all over the US (and other countries).

And since you mentioned it, Houston’s traffic is not nearly as bad as similarly sized cities (LA, DC, Chicago, NY).

by Texas Wahoo on May 18, 2010 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Firstly

you’ve perfectly captured what I was trying to say about Dallas/Ft. Worth.

2nd, it’s true that our traffic is worse, but our options for mass transit lessen the blow considerably if one is willing to surrender their car.

Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.

by Kyle McCann't on May 18, 2010 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

To come around full circle:

It is most certainly against the spirit of Texas to surrender your car.

by Texas Wahoo on May 18, 2010 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Which is what my in-laws in Georgetown say

when explaining why they won’t use public transit.

Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.

by Kyle McCann't on May 18, 2010 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Personally, I support public transit (I take it every day).

But there is no way in hell I am giving up my car. Even if I only use it on weekends, I enjoy the freedom it gives me.

by Texas Wahoo on May 18, 2010 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Texas is definitely a huge growth area for the future of the country.

Dallas definitely has some late-20th-century stereotypical elements to it. Houston is an amazing cultural melting pot but flat, ugly, humid, & snarled with never-ending traffic. It’s got to be the ugliest geographic area but still very much a part of Texas. No way would I say that either H-town or D/FW are superior to the other for 21st-century appeal. Both populations are booming. Out of all the regions I’ve lived in, give me Austin & the Hill Country any day. Beautiful.

by robthecob on May 18, 2010 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

scared, hell no

is there any SEC university that is academically good? no, most of those universities have almost no academic standards. even the big 12 has pretty poor standards minus texas and a few. the big 10 and pac 10 have great research univ and this is a better place for us because the academic dollars to be had are abundant. in the end, it seems that if texas has to move, it wants to move to enable more money towards academic (our athletics definitely is not low on money these days).
i think a lot of this is not about football but about potential research money that can be tapped to make UT a berkeley kind of research U rather than a low top 5 public research U.
ut has been trying to reach the research standard it should have (which is in direct competition with berkeley) rather than where we are. most academic community believes texas is not where it should be in the research arena and i think this conference realignment might be used by texas to tap research money
this is my impression, i havent followed this thing very closely though. someone correct me if im wrong…

by vanterminatorhorn on May 17, 2010 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Turnabout is fair play?

Last week, I was absolutely torched for stating something less inflammatory than this:

is there any SEC university that is academically good? no, most of those universities have almost no academic standards.

TB from BOTC had an excellent response which reset my idea of the whole process; after reading literally hundreds of pages on the topic, my concepts of the universities involved had become so abstract that I was just tossing them about as if they were poker chips. His astute post jarred me back into thinking about the process in terms of reality. Still, my original post was largely the result of faulty phrasing; I was sincerely thinking of the standards for student-athletes in the SEC first, but nevertheless allowed more than a touch of smug superiority to enter the equation. As an “insider” you’ll likely face no such rebuke, but you’d be wise to read TB’s response.

Secondly, the irony of your stated desire for UT to emulate Berkely is this; in the Pac 10, Texas would be standing amongst greatness (and in the cases of ASU, WSU, OSU and Oregon, adequacy) but would reap no tangible reward from the association. In the Big Ten, the presumably parallel invitation to the CIC would add real teeth to the academic funding Texas desires and, according to LH, needs.

Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.

by Kyle McCann't on May 18, 2010 5:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

Help me out;

the direct quote link is the one SB Nation formatting quirk I have yet to figure out. What’s the process?

Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.

by Kyle McCann't on May 18, 2010 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

The permalink for each comment is disguised as the date and time it was posted. Just mouse over it and you’ll see the underline; right click as usual to get the link.

Team Speed Kills
SBNation's SEC Blog

by Year2 on May 18, 2010 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thank you very much.

And from an SEC source of all places. Maybe world peace is attainable.

Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.

by Kyle McCann't on May 19, 2010 12:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

UH?

I can verify that the Rumor involving Texas wanting to help raise UH to tier one status and taking along for the ride is false. After the royal, dry screwing Texas put on UH when the B12 was formed, it’s pretty safe to say that if Texas has any regard for UH it is not a positive one…And, the same goes for TCU, SMU, and Rice….it has been the better part of 15 years and mostly those schools have not recovered from being left dangling in the wind…everyone needs a Texas now and then to remind them that you aint their friend, buddy, family, relative, neighbor when it comes to looking after Number 1. Although, I am an avid Texas sports watcher, as an alumni of UH i have never totally gotten over the shock of being dismissed so coldly.

by SteerPower on May 17, 2010 2:04 PM CDT reply actions  

UH . . . UH . . .

That’s the school that plays in the high school stadium, right?

I remember UH’s last trip to the Cotton Bowl in 1985. One of the Cotton Bowl’s directors, thrilled about UH heading to Dallas, said “”http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:n7eOGvtSiNcJ:www.collegefootballexplorer.com/2009/06/1984-part-ii-southwest-conference-demise/+houston+cotton+bowl+all+7-11s+will+be+happy&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a" target="new">On the day of the game their fans drive up and eat at 7-Elevens or rob them."

by Hopkins Horn on May 17, 2010 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Try #2 at proper formatting

and the Cotton Bowl director said, “On the day of the game their fans drive up and eat at 7-Elevens or rob them.”

by Hopkins Horn on May 17, 2010 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is hysterical.

"Speed Limit defense — we stopped ’em at 55"

by dimecoverage on May 17, 2010 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Cotton Bowl Director

I see that the Cotton Bowl Director has a LOT of class….And, if there is a hint of truth in that it is because a large number of the students at UH are folk that hold down “full time” jobs (unlike the spoiled babies at UT spending papa’s money) while raising families and going back to college to earn their degrees and do not have ‘stipends, allowances, or trust funds’ like so many of the full time students at UT….those are the kind of people that really ‘earn’ their educations…not given to them. And, the Bowl Direcctor and YOU should be embarrased and ashamed of yourself for making fun of people working hard to better themselves and their families…That’s sheer arrogance and ignorance.

by SteerPower on May 17, 2010 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

YUMC. I enjoy that new army has the wherewithal to tout a program that’s barely over .500 over 100+ years.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on May 17, 2010 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Glad it wasn't me.

Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.

by Kyle McCann't on May 18, 2010 5:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

If I might interject for a brief moment......

My brother in law will be graduating from UT this Friday with a PE degree. He spent 4 years in Austin. During the summers he worked on a drilling rig, went offshore, and did everything he had to do make it work. He now has a job with EOG Resources in Tyler as an engineer. All the while, he didn’t have to do any of this.

Stand up folks in Austin. I have a lot of respect for this University. I’ll probably have more after the ceremonies this weekend.

I for one, do not appreciate your comments…..

That is all.

" Answers --Become Resources."
Without Questions, There are limited Resources...

by KWashburn on May 17, 2010 8:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Couple of Quick Hits

The SEC contract averages 17M over the full life of the deal. So the combined local and national deal this year is being budgeted at or around 10-12M. Not a huge increase over the Big 12.

The B10N 22M figure is completely bogus. That is the total of all revenues for each B10 school. The B10N combined with the secondary TV deal is only around 14-15M. Once again not the huge cash cow everyone thinks it is. Lets not forget that the B10N is ran by Fox and they receive 1/2 of all revenue generated from B10N. To go a step further all of the major projections that talk about the Big10 total payout reaching 40M are all based upon the idea that the B10 controls the entire NY tri-state area for college football coverage. If they add Neb or Missouri, it ain’t happening.

The Pac-10 TV deal is going to be just as lucrative as the SEC deal, but it is unlikely it goes as long term. With the jumps in technology, it might not be the best idea to lock yourself in longterm like the SEC has. The major networks are going to have to adapt to the potential problems about that they are about to face with digital “on-demand” rights for out of market games, Internet broadcasting and the potential potential problems with the portable video devices. What happens to the advertising revenue for college football if and when it can be streamed to your hand held portable device from your Internet provider?

One of the reasons I am hesitant to really get behind a lot of the expansion talks is that the census numbers are going to have a huge effect on what happens. Until those numbers come out and the restructuring of weights in regards television and ad revenue that rely on those numbers happen, it is going to be very difficult to give out any form of financial projection that has some reliability to any new prospective member school to any conference.

Conferences that are about to see a radical change in their footprint ,positive or negative, such as, Big 12, Big 10 or Pac-10 all have their time line tied to the census. The Big10 needs to boost their footprint because of the massive attrition in the rust-belt. The Big-12 will be in a strange spot due to the fact that the overall footprint population is expected to take another jump, but the population density is going to become even more skewed.

The best case scenario I can see is a Pac-10/Big-12 TV merger for now that is tied to a 8 to 10 year cycle. This will allow for all the schools, regardless of defections, to generate huge revenues. This could also eventually lead to the formation of an eventual “super-conference” and will give both conferences a carrot to push their weaker members to fix their inadequacies both athletically and academic. If it eventually comes to the point of “super-conferences” some teams are most likely going to be left out.

Regardless what happens, there is not a huge revenue boost that is going to set one conference head and shoulder above everyone else long term. It is just not accurate. The numbers aren’t there. The donors and all the other revenue tied to the AD will still have a much larger sway over the top tier revenue schools than TV revenue ever will.

JD’s like, "you want some fucking pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, bitches!"- RCCook

by laxtonto on May 17, 2010 2:25 PM CDT reply actions  

When you say the Big 10 deal is bogus, where are your numbers coming from?

That’s not a claim I have seen before.

I wholly agree on the census, though I believe rust belt attrition may be exaggerated.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on May 17, 2010 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

It came out about a week ago from the Chicago Tribune

Let me see If I can find the article.

Last year, schools received roughly $9 million each from the conference’s deal with ABC/ESPN and another $7 million to $8 million from the BTN. Add revenue from bowl games, the NCAA basketball tournament and licensing, and you arrive at the estimated $22 million-a-year distribution figure that’s the envy of every Division I school outside the Southeastern Conference.

Link
And this is coming from a VERY pro Big 10 guy. Most estimates have the Big 10N revenue actually a little lower that the 7 to 8 and the ABC/ESPN deal number is closer to 8M. None of the huge numbers thrown out initially make sense. If the Big 10N made 22M per, then Fox would have received 244M from the revenue generated from it. There is no sizable chunks on the 8 or 10k SEC fillings for Fox.

The funny thing is that even this guy has not pieced together the full financial picture. He is WAY of base about the SEC deal as well.

I expect the Pac-10 in the long run to get a better deal than either the SEC or Big 10. This is especially true if the Fox Network gets into college football like they are floating rumors the are. The Pac-10 or a Pac-10/Big 12 Merger concept could easily cover 60% of the nation. Everything west of the Mississippi would be the subscriber base. That would dwarf anything the rest of the conferences could do.

JD’s like, "you want some fucking pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, bitches!"- RCCook

by laxtonto on May 17, 2010 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Okay, those numbers make sense

The 22 million includes basketball licensing of BT content and bowl games and combined payout from both networks. Maybe I should read the tribune occasionally.

For those curious about the relative economic share of conference states.

Regional GDP in millions of chained 2000 dollars incl gov spending

Pac 10

Period Arizona California Oregon Washington
1997 127,439 1,043,480 95,568 188,481
1998 138,668 1,108,720 100,858 204,314
1999 149,717 1,196,640 104,345 219,569
2000 158,533 1,287,150 112,438 221,961
2001 163,448 1,281,730 110,513 220,190
2002 166,860 1,298,750 115,000 221,115
2003 174,205 1,337,850 117,906 224,962
2004 180,539 1,406,810 125,874 230,007
2005 196,176 1,467,890 129,391 241,807
2006 208,619 1,512,850 139,585 248,490
2007 211,570 1,539,440 144,755 259,387
2008 210,235 1,546,130 147,059 264,633

= Regional GDP of 1,958,032 in 2008

Totaling

Big 10
Period Illinois Indiana Iowa Michigan Minnesota Ohio Pennsylvania Wisconsin
1997 425,023 176,853 85,692 317,263 163,072 350,603 362,900 160,193
1998 439,980 185,174 86,409 323,089 170,581 362,724 376,189 166,943
1999 452,859 189,327 87,579 332,986 176,253 368,482 384,378 172,445
2000 464,194 194,419 90,186 337,235 185,093 372,006 389,619 175,737
2001 464,910 190,327 89,360 326,869 186,336 365,735 395,633 177,434
2002 466,150 196,828 92,821 336,862 191,116 373,457 402,978 180,330
2003 479,293 203,459 95,254 341,109 196,738 378,719 411,599 184,139
2004 487,557 209,523 100,887 337,851 205,055 387,436 416,162 188,001
2005 490,293 208,119 102,636 339,872 208,444 390,602 422,527 191,653
2006 505,321 208,297 104,537 334,843 209,424 387,345 431,028 194,964
2007 514,848 211,092 108,126 331,036 212,790 388,281 438,886 196,955
2008 516,144 209,903 110,413 326,123 217,028 385,559 443,669 198,324

Total in 2008 2,407,163

Big 12

Period Colorado Iowa Kansas Missouri Nebraska Oklahoma Texas
1997 137,900 85,692 76,095 168,205 52,781 82,858 627,501
1998 147,938 86,409 79,417 171,653 53,722 84,496 666,590
1999 159,365 87,579 80,798 172,930 54,376 86,863 699,101
2000 171,862 90,186 82,812 176,708 55,478 89,757 727,233
2001 174,763 89,360 83,898 177,810 55,819 91,793 745,325
2002 175,484 92,821 85,259 179,918 56,942 92,933 760,588
2003 176,525 95,254 86,726 183,237 59,859 94,331 770,975
2004 180,595 100,887 88,316 186,375 60,935 97,333 806,005
2005 188,353 102,636 89,994 189,059 62,186 99,209 828,417
2006 193,398 104,537 93,123 188,840 63,774 102,176 869,379
2007 197,303 108,126 96,016 191,235 65,703 104,099 907,358
2008 203,024 110,413 98,110 193,775 66,568 106,937 925,505

Totaling 1,704,332

SEC

Period Alabama Arkansas Florida Georgia Kentucky
1997 107,563 62,474 414,710 250,758 111,576
1998 110,703 64,274 435,601 266,020 113,151
1999 114,430 67,071 453,277 282,849 115,708
2000 114,576 66,801 471,316 290,887 111,900
2001 115,599 66,982 484,886 292,832 112,166
2002 118,185 68,901 497,343 294,105 115,492
2003 121,564 70,770 520,413 299,661 117,239
2004 127,848 74,191 548,566 310,738 119,934
2005 132,251 76,458 589,349 322,625 122,935
2006 134,937 77,540 613,551 326,469 125,805
2007 136,144 78,716 613,351 331,339 127,031
2008 137,112 79,245 603,462 329,482 126,967

Period Louisiana South Carolina Tennessee
1997 128,936 103,331 163,038
1998 134,686 107,126 168,184
1999 137,042 110,902 173,574
2000 131,520 112,514 174,851
2001 129,233 114,055 176,253
2002 129,740 115,713 183,153
2003 131,862 119,631 188,517
2004 139,327 119,865 197,242
2005 140,290 122,784 200,930
2006 143,121 125,227 206,375
2007 144,416 126,316 209,144
2008 144,860 127,065 210,216

Total 1,758,409

proud to swim home

by learned hand on May 17, 2010 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Your BTN revenue numbers

are only including the actual pay-out per school before advertising dollars. 40% of the revenue comes from the deal itself, the other 60% through advertising on the network. Depending on markets (and I’m not counting on NYC; NJ is the 4th largest media market in the country), this figure stands to sky-rocket. The 22 million per school is accurate, just not a true indication of what is coming from the BTN alone. Regardless, the take per school is very real.

Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.

by Kyle McCann't on May 18, 2010 5:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

Census numbers are already pretty well known.

Yes, the count going on now will be the official one, but sociologists and bean-counters have a pretty good idea where the population is going, and where it’s coming from, long before the official count is completed. Population shifts within the U.S. have been consistent for a couple of decades.

The gainers — Florida, Texas, Georgia, N. Carolina, Arizona, Nevada. (California, to an extent, but the gains have leveled off and the cost of living out there is forcing some folks to leave.)

Losers — Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania. To a lesser extent, Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin, and some of the New England states,

by edsp on May 17, 2010 8:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

the problem is that the bean counters and sociologist

tend to be accurate early in shifts, but at the end right before the census they tend to be radically off.

A real good example is looking at the 90’s to the 2000 census. Somehow the population estimates where roughly 10M short due to the fact that the modes used where updated annually instead of substituting hard new data.

This is the reason why people tend to think the advertising models over correct after every new census, but in fact are just adjusting for 5 years of flawed data. Population demographic shifts have not followed the normal predictive pattern the last 10 years. The increase in tech and change in both manufacturing location and type have changed enough that I expect to see much larger shifts than expected.

JD’s like, "you want some fucking pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, bitches!"- RCCook

by laxtonto on May 17, 2010 9:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

I rec'd

For many reasons but the main one is :

You don’t have to have the brains of an Acho brother to realize that these rumors are pure, unadulterated beergut.

Strong HH, very strong.

"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo

by run Bevo run on May 17, 2010 2:37 PM CDT reply actions  

Thank you!

I’m proud of that line, as well as my line behind why Mizzou wants to leave.

I’m all for using “beergut” from this day forward as a euphemism for BS. Seems only appropriate.

by Hopkins Horn on May 17, 2010 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

Amongst other usages.

"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo

by run Bevo run on May 17, 2010 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Noun vs. verb

I think both can work. The traditional BON use of “beergut” is as a verb, while the new usage I propose is as a noun. I think they could live together. Now, if one could work both variations of beergut into one sentence, I’ll be quite impressed.

by Hopkins Horn on May 17, 2010 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'll work on it.

But it may end up as some sort of double negative and quash the whole shebang.

"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo

by run Bevo run on May 17, 2010 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

It’s just a bunch of beergut that we all let rBr beergut that thread all by himself. Where were we when he needed us?

by Hopkins Horn on May 17, 2010 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

UH? UH?

Yes, UH the one that plays in the high school football stadium…last time I saw them play Texas at Memorial stadium, that team from the high school stadium beat the Longhorns 30 – 0. And, I knew I’d get some of those old, stupid, ignorant kind of remarks…congrats, you came through like a true teabagger.

by SteerPower on May 17, 2010 2:41 PM CDT reply actions  

you know when..

…someone gains credibility? When they learn how to use the reply button.

by vy til i die on May 17, 2010 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

And I'm just going to stop while I'm behind

SteerPower has schooled me. I am defeated. I’m just going to sit back and do some more teabaggin’ instead.

by Hopkins Horn on May 17, 2010 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

We realize that there is bitterness from being left out when the Big 12 was formed, but a lot of the anger towards Texas is misplaced.

by dimecoverage on May 17, 2010 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why is everyone angry at us?

Shouldn’t we be pissed at UH and SMU and TCU and Rice for sucking so badly that the conference had to disband?

by Hopkins Horn on May 17, 2010 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

It disbanded because of monetary reasons and general debauchery by many, many members.

by dimecoverage on May 17, 2010 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh, I know

It’s just fun to point out that those schools were (and still mostly are) sucky at any opportunity.

by Hopkins Horn on May 17, 2010 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

When in doubt

I blame Craig James.

Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.

by Kyle McCann't on May 18, 2010 5:08 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Always and everyday.

" Answers --Become Resources."
Without Questions, There are limited Resources...

by KWashburn on May 18, 2010 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

IMO I think the smartest move would be to go to the PAC 10

The weather is great, know need to worry about the humidity, it’s all dry heat out here in the West. I could finally attend a game at UC Berkely or Stanford. The conference is starting to become legit with Oregon being an up an comer, our OU game would be playing USC and im pretty sure we would still be able to keep the RRR.

by kcmorse on May 17, 2010 2:54 PM CDT reply actions  

Pac 10

Oregon and Stanford are suddenly legit because of those good old Texas football players they have….I suspect Mr. Luck from Stanford will be the #1 pick in the NFL draft…His Dad, Oliver Luck, was an NFL Quarterback for the Oilers, but I never hear anyone mention tha, wonder why?. And, Oregon and Oregon State both have really good quality running backs also Texas natives.

by SteerPower on May 17, 2010 3:12 PM CDT reply actions  

Arrogance sits on you head like a bad hairpiece

I’m sure the younger Luck cares….his dad was a pretty fair quarterback…when he left football, he went to law school and became an attorney….I’m sure the kid got lots of coaching and inspiration from his Dad and also finished as either valedictorian or salutatorian at his high school….the kid comes from good genes….too bad “run Bevo run” had to come from a gene pool that only has a shallow end.

by SteerPower on May 17, 2010 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Let's take a poll

Everyone that cares about Andrew Luck’s dad, raise your hand! I counted 5, 6, 7…oops, the 7th one lowered his hand when they realized he wasn’t a family member or apparent stalker.

"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo

by run Bevo run on May 17, 2010 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

How about any Houston pro sports fan?

He was not only a Houston OIler player, but was responsible for the operation of 3 of the pro sports venues in Houston for many years.

He’s also a Texas-Ex (Texas Law 1987). I assume you are, too?

He’s relevant to Texas sports fans in a number of ways.

by sessamoid on May 19, 2010 3:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

UH, SMU, TCU, Rice Sucked?

SMU, TCU, Rice sucked so much that Texas just kept them around for 80 years….They only sucked when Texas wanted/needed to make a move. And UH from it’s admittance in the SWC held it’s own in all the major sports. It still rankles me that TTU and Baylor backed into a major conference, not from being a deserving school but from having the right person in a position of political power….and, how many championships has TTU and Baylor won in all sports over the last 15 or so years? I’ve tried, but I can’t think of any.

by SteerPower on May 17, 2010 3:16 PM CDT reply actions  

The Baylor women's basketball team begs to differ

And, please, if you’re going to start beergutting all over another school’s message board, please learn some basic grammar rules (its/it’s; singular/plural; has/have) or else people might start getting the wrong impression about the quality of your undergraduate education.

by Hopkins Horn on May 17, 2010 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

UH is a tier 4 institution

When discussing the possibility of reloading the Big XII UH should be last on the preference of second tier schools because: UH is a tier 4 institution and it was left out of the Big XII for a reason. The name ‘Houston High’ is given to this academic institution of little reputation for a reason. Baylor and TTU have both had reasonably consistent athletic performances and oh they have bigger athletic budgets and stronger academic programs and that’s why we chose these two schools over the Pony Express, Fort worth Frogs and Houston High. A school that losses its games to the likes of UCF and others on a regular basis does not qualify as a hot candidate for an expanded Big XII or any BCS conference.

by YUMC on May 17, 2010 10:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

They would just beergut all over each other

Leaving those of us interested, beergutted.

"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo

by run Bevo run on May 17, 2010 10:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

The fighting farmer’s new army vs. Cougar High.

And here I thought the thread jumped the shark when I posted a decade’s worth of economic data.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on May 17, 2010 10:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Bazinga...

" Answers --Become Resources."
Without Questions, There are limited Resources...

by KWashburn on May 17, 2010 11:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

BU Women's Basketball Team

You really had to dig deep to come up with that…Everyone that has spent money to go to a woman’s basketball game, raise your hand! I counted 5, 6, 7…oops, the 7th one lowered his hand real quick when he say that I was counting them.

And, I don’t need no frigging Englis lessons from someone from Whacko where Religious sects are burned, basketball players are killed, etc etc etc

by SteerPower on May 17, 2010 3:25 PM CDT reply actions  

Consider yourself warned

I’m pretty new at this, and I am very hesitant to pull any triggers unnecessarily, but if you go around and insult a poster’s fathers for not raising good kids, as you just did in a comment I instantly deleted, I can’t imagine that those who call the shots around here will tolerate your presence much longer.

by Hopkins Horn on May 17, 2010 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Man, if I came from a shallow gene pool...

Nevermind…the insult is only worth it if the person comprehends basic thought.

"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo

by run Bevo run on May 17, 2010 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Me no Alamo Me no Goliad (Texspeak for I don't understand all the ramifications)

I don’t care where we go “We are Texas.”

Independent looks pretty good if all the eventualaties eventuate.

If we became an independant then we would be in the catbird seat when some of these realinements become trainwrecks.

by TCB Orange Dino on May 17, 2010 3:36 PM CDT reply actions  

And for those of you who didn't see it...

The ACC just got a better TV deal than the SEC. Don’t think that the Big 12 TV deal is doomed. The Big 12 has a better overall footprint than the ACC and this deal will probably be the worst case scenario for a future Big 12 TV deal.

The ACC broke from its spring meetings without announcing a new deal, and the conference said a formal contract had not been finalized. But industry sources pegged a pending deal with ESPN at $1.86 billion over 12 years.

That annual figure of $155 million dwarfs the average of $73 million to $75 million the league was getting from its previous media deals, which expire at the end of the 2010-11 season (see chart), but falls well short of the $205 million a year that the SEC gets from its new 15-year deals with CBS and ESPN.

I would highly recommend everyone go read this from the Sports Business Journal.

JD’s like, "you want some fucking pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, bitches!"- RCCook

by laxtonto on May 17, 2010 4:45 PM CDT reply actions  

Good info

But I’m not sure the Big 12 has a more valuable footprint than the ACC. Florida, Massachusetts, Georgia, North Carolina and Maryland/DC? Sure the football is decidedly average but the markets are there and basketball is extremely valuable.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on May 17, 2010 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

The ACC has NC and Virgina, splits Georgia and FL.

Their BB deal has probably a lot more to do with this than the football side. As a whole, the Big 12 has more population centers as they are now aligned and more importantly states that they control completely.

JD’s like, "you want some fucking pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, bitches!"- RCCook

by laxtonto on May 17, 2010 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

I’m not sure I buy the complete control argument, though I’m not an advertiser.

I tend to agree with SRR50 at BC, the home town markets in the ACC (Atlanta, Boston, Miami, Raleigh, Winston-Salem) offer more intrigue than the home town markets in the Big 12 (…Austin). Secondary markets are a separate issue, but altogether the population and wealth seem to be on the side of the ACC. Engagement is a separate issue, but until there’s some data I’m assuming they pull a fair percentage of each market. The states that the Big 12 controls are of dubious value outside of the top 3, as noted above.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on May 17, 2010 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

You used the term "footprint"

which simply implies presence in an area, splitting be damned. Furthermore, the idea that the Big XII has more population centers is questionable and (if Nebraska, Missouri and Colorado have their say) likely temporary. The ACC counts Boston, DC, Baltimore, Atlanta, Miami, Tampa/St. Petersburg and Charlotte among their member markets. While they may not all be as keenly interested in college football as those markets represented in the Big XII, their power seems to be represented in their new deal.

Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.

by Kyle McCann't on May 18, 2010 5:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

Over the next 20 years, the ACC is projected to become the most populous conference (based on current footprint).

by chowder on May 18, 2010 7:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Until the SEC

rips Florida (and maybe Georgia) out from underneath them.

Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.

by Kyle McCann't on May 19, 2010 12:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

It would be interesting to have alumni numbers in the state of Texas. I would assume just by sheer number of graduates, Texas and A&M would have the largest number of grads in the major tv markets in the state (but we all know what assume means). Little brother tagging along is probably good business. More bodies, the more a Texas to-whatever-conference-deal would be worth.

by dimecoverage on May 17, 2010 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

I saw somewhere that UT has over half a million living alumni

And this blog is a pretty decent testament to geographic dispersal. I’m willing to stipulate value added in the Tx. major metropolitan areas, but I’m curious what the pull is in LA/Chicago/New York.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on May 17, 2010 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

National following

That’s one of the reasons Texas is the pretty girl at the dance in all this talk.

by dimecoverage on May 17, 2010 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'll attest to Texas' draw in Chicago alone

by the mere presence of three separate Texas bars within walking distance of my job, each of which are packed to the gills on fall Saturdays.

Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.

by Kyle McCann't on May 18, 2010 5:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

Blame The Big East

If the Big East would stop allowing Notre Dame to use them for all sports other than football it would force Notre Dame’s hand to join a freakin’ conference (ie, the Big 10 or Big East). However, now the Big East is looking at loosing Rutgers, which will then really decrease its media power. If the Big East would just tell Notre Dame they have to be all in or all out, this whole mess of re-shuffling could be very minor.

Also, the Big 10 could help force Notre Dame’s hand by not scheduling them anymore and leave them hanging out to take cross country road trips or join all in.

by Wrangler86 on May 17, 2010 6:44 PM CDT reply actions  

Notre Dame

I’m not sure looking at realignment through a prism of blind hatred towards the Irish is the best way to look at realignment.

Fist, as my other school (Hopkins) basically replicates for lacrosse what Notre Dame does for football (DI independent for lacrosse, not in a conference because it doesn’t have to be; DIII and in a conference for all other sports), I fail to see what the big deal is.

Second, I would argue that many schools would do what Notre Dame does if they could. I’m pretty certain Texas would at least strongly consider independence if it were a viable option, and I don’t think too many hear would humor those of other schools would would complain about us doing so.

Finally, you’re basically asking the Big East to take a hit for the sake of everyone else. The end result of the Big East giving the Irish and “all or nothing” ultimatum would almost certainly be “nothing.” If the Big East decides its in its best interest to have half an Irish loaf than none at all, so be it.

by Hopkins Horn on May 17, 2010 7:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Disagree...

…what does Notre Dame bring to the Big East in the current arrangment? An average basketball team, and that’s about it. If the choices are a) give Notre Dame an ultimatum, the effect of which would mean the Irish are gone and you have a chance to save your conference, or b) keep Notre Dame in a bunch of sports in which it brings little value to your conference from a dollars and cents standpoint and risk the Big 10 poaching some combination of Rutgers/Syracuse/UConn/Pitt, then I’m frankly surprised the Big East hasn’t already given the Irish the ultimatum.

Maybe I’m wrong, but I just don’t see Notre Dame bringing much in the way of TV appeal to the Big East in men’s basketball and the non-revenue sports. They can’t be better than the middle of the pack as far as basketball appeal in the Big East. I don’t know what the Big East’s revenue-sharing agreement is with Notre Dame (maybe the Irish get nothing), but if the Big East is splitting any revenue with Notre Dame I really have a hard time believing the Irish are worth the extra mouth to feed, especially with the possibility that they could cause the downfall of the Big East if they refuse an offer to join the Big 10.

Now, maybe the Big 10 is still interested in poaching other Big East teams even if they get Notre Dame, so giving them an ultimatum wouldn’t save the Big East, but in that scenario, it’s a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don’t situation. They might as well do something.

We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats

by TB on May 17, 2010 7:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Fair points . . .

. . . but I don’t think the Irish have the fate of the Big East in their hands right now.

I think the Big East can survive a blow of one member (presumably Rutgers) defecting. More than one, and it gets tenuous. But so long as Nebraska and Mizzou seem to be the lead candidates to join Rutgers and, perhaps, Notre Dame, in a multi-team expansion, I’m not sure Notre Dame’s decision will make that much of a difference.

What scenarios are you seeing that lead you to believe that Notre Dame’s decision will have a direct impost upon the Big East’s ability to survive?

by Hopkins Horn on May 17, 2010 11:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, good point

Assuming that last week’s report of Nebraska/Missouri/Rutgers/Notre Dame is true, then I guess it doesn’t matter too much. Either Notre Dame would refuse and the Big 10 would stop (for now) at 14, or they would join and the Big 10 would have to take someone else to get to 16. So in that scenario, it’s counterproductive because the Big 10 would probably look east to fill the last spot, which could leave the Big East vulnerable to losing another school.

Obviously if the Big East thinks it can avoid a massive shift by getting rid of Notre Dame, then there’s no good reason (in my mind) not to do so.

We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats

by TB on May 18, 2010 7:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

ND

is not at risk at getting kicked out of the Big East. Basically, none of the non-football schools would vote for it because they view a post-football conference as a definite possibility and they want to be associated with ND for that.

by nuftw on May 17, 2010 11:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

TANGENT!

So many Texas-to-the-Big-Ten rumors have been met with fervent disapproval from UT fans not only for reasons pertaining to the fate of Longhorn football but, confoundedly to this Midwesterner, those pertaining to Longhorn baseball. After spending a fair amount of time on this site I’ve come to understand the place baseball has in the hearts of UT and (most) Big XII fans. College baseball is part of the athletic landscape of the Southern and Western U.S. Here is where ND offers a similar appeal to the Big Ten.

For all the talk about the Big Ten Network and its revenue stream, the potential for advertising dollars (which actually accounts for 60% of the profits for said entity) has only been scratched. Additional/improved programming is essential for pushing the earning power of the BTN forward. To say Big Ten baseball (can I really even call it that) doesn’t move the needle much is kind understatement. However, we strange people of the North an affinity for hockey similar to that Texans share for baseball. Currently, there are four college hockey conferences and a small group of independents, none of which reflect conference affiliations in other sports i.e. Michigan State doesn’t belong to the same conference as Minnesota. If Notre Dame were added to the mix, however, there would finally be enough Big Ten schools with men’s teams (the Irish skate!) to warrant the formation of the first parallel hockey conference. The writing seems to be on the wall that Penn State will be bumping their club team to NCAA status within the next few years, which would give a Big Ten hockey conference Minnesota, Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, Wisconsin, Notre Dame and Penn State (Syracuse also has a team if they’re added). Over a 3rd of NCAA hockey champions would come from this group

Is this a determining factor in Big Ten expansion plans? Hell no. But along with hockey, basketball (men’s and women’s are actually NCAA tourney quality almost every year) and baseball, Notre Dame would be adding more value than they’re being given credit for (and I hate giving Notre Dame credit for anything).

Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.

by Kyle McCann't on May 18, 2010 5:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

HH-You have me wrong

I am Irish Catholic and grew up outside Chicago in Munster, IN. I actually applied and got accepted to Notre Dame Law School, so I’m not an Irish hater by any means.

I keep hearing tha the Notre Dame Alum are adamant about staying Indepedent. I’m not a Notre Dame alum—since I decided I couldn’t survive 3 years in South Bend—but I am a Notre Dame fan. However, I’m tired of Notre Dame fighting the natural alliance with the Big 10 and I’m tired of them pulling this elitest attitude. They have jumped better teams for BCS bowl games and the whole way they have been coddled is unfair and irritating.

Like the preisthood, the lure of the golden dome at Notre Dame is becoming less and less popular. IMO they need to keep up with the times, and I personally think they are making the wrong decision if they don’t join the Big 10. The would be the only school in the Big 10 not a member of the AAU, so it would actually help Notre Dame academically. They are geographically in the midst of Big 10 country. I also agree with TB, they bring very little to the Big East for their conference tie-in for everything except football, so saying all-in or all-out will make them have to think harder about the Big 10’s final offer. And, all the other sports do matter, maybe not as much as football, but there will be a lot of unhappy folks when Notre Dame is left without a conference for everything else. So, I’m saying this to help Notre Dame rather than because I’m a hater. I am annoyed with ND.

by Wrangler86 on May 17, 2010 8:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Fair enough re ND-hating

But let me ask you this: would you oppose a move by Texas to go independent?

It’s been kicked around on BON from time to time, and though the consensus seems to be that it would be impractical, I’ve never seen anyone raise the objection that it would be an “elitist” thing to do.

Would it be elitist for Texas to become independent, or would it be the prudent thing to do if Texas were able to work out the kinks associated with going indy?

by Hopkins Horn on May 17, 2010 10:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Going solo does nothing for me as a Longhorn.

I like our conference rivalaries and collaberations wtih other schools, I want to see UT vs OU. I want to see OU vs. NU also. I like UT vs. A&M also. And Kan. vs. Mizzou.

We have a good balaced program, but the Norht division teams needs to play better and get their programs up to standard.. Mizzouris can write its own future if it starts winning. They have the numbers, quality programs, and the media market numbers. But, when they jump to Big X they will be the lowest team. They will be lucky to beat Illini or Minn. Probably lose to Wisc and Nortthwestern. and Surely lose to Iowa. On the ohter hand, Penn Sate, Mich, Osu , Mich State and Purdue will rule that half of the conference.
Mizzou’s chance of being competitve is less in the BIg 10. They may make a little money, but they will be solely the whipping boy to help the other bigger name teams get the BCS games. NU and MIzzou have good positions right now. They should dominate the Big 12 North, but for some reason they are playing mediocre ball. Instead of running away, they should figure out what the need to do to win and beat a south team.

by Wrangler86 on May 17, 2010 11:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

'They will be lucky to beat Illini '

Had to reply to this- I can’t remember the last time we DIDN’T beat ILL in FBall. Reverse in BBall until this year, but regardless, to say we can’t beat ILL when we have been doing so regularly for many years now is very uneducated. And not to P people off, but it is a bit typical that a UT fan has no clue what MU has or hasn’t done, but is ready to tell us what we can/can’t be in the Big 10.

‘They should dominate the Big 12 North, but for some reason they are playing mediocre ball.’
We (MU) have more or less dominated, at least for the last five years, we have won the North twice, and very well could again next year. And we do have 38 wins over the last 4 years, which isn’t OU/UT level, but it’s pretty damn good. Also were one half away from a NC berth in 2007, and reaching #1. A bit better than ‘mediocre’.

And speaking of 2007, you are missing the boat a bit when there is no mention of the bowl snubs influencing the desire to leave. MU has learned, the hard way, that unless you win the conf. in this league, or have a big name (which is only about three, maybe four schools) you are almost sure to get screwed over in bowl selection. That is all on the Big 12- the big boys essentially don’t give a F about anybody else. Other leagues tie bowl selection to records (except Pac 10, funny how that is the new ‘partner’), which basically means they are willing to stick up for their members over greedy bowls that don’t give a crap about anything other than making a few extra $’s. Big 12, not so much.

This means nothing to UT or OU (or even NU), as they know they will never get screwed for a bowl, they will be doing the screwing. If you think it is right that a six win team gets rewarded for a perception of ‘travelling better’ over an eight win team (or because a dirtbag like Lew Perkins can blatantly disregard the conf. bowl lobbying rules and suffer no consequences), you aren’t making much of an effort to see it from the other folks POV. I think that is what will make the league fall apart- the powers that be don’t really give a crap about anybody other than the other powers that be.

And UT does bring in more, and can argue for a bigger piece of the pie. But in other leagues, there is much more willingness to look out for everybody- for instance, Mich. and tOSU sharing equally with NWestern (who we also beat a few years ago).

If MU can get out, it will be funny if UT follows up by strong arming the league into allowing them to have their own network. Can’t wait for Dan’s ’you’re with us or against us’ mandate in the wake of that. Have a funny feeling there will be waaay less willingness to be mr. tough guy. Which shows how unbalanced the whole thing is.

And I’m not saying UT is the villain, but to say they haven’t been a key player in creating an atmosphere that has teams looking for the door is not honest. This is not a league that looks out for all members- there really should have been some willingness to recognize that all those 9-3 votes (or 8-4, don’t remember the rule) could have indicated folks saw real issues.

by tigertiger on May 18, 2010 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Umm - I think you have your facts wrong. You are just as likely to get picked over in the Big Ten.

http://espn.go.com/blog/bigten/post/_/id/6776/big-ten-bowl-selection-tidbits
“Big Ten records don’t matter: The bowls only need to consider overall records when determining selections. This could come into play if Michigan wins one of its last two games to finish 6-6 overall but 2-6 in Big Ten play. Michigan could be selected before a 7-5 team regardless of the other team’s Big Ten record as long as there is another Big Ten bowl tie-in spot available. I’ll get into this more during Wednesday’s Rooting Interest feature, but the other teams in bowl contention (Northwestern, Michigan State, Minnesota, Purdue, Illinois, Indiana) should be rooting for Michigan to lose because they could get jumped. "

Sounds like you’ll still be getting picked below more attractive teams with the same or worse records are you.

by Texas Wahoo on May 18, 2010 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Mizzou vs. Illini--Who knew?

Tiger, I admit I have no idea what the stats are in this alleged rivalry. The truth is I never even heard of this rivalry until this expansion talk drama. But, I still think Mizzou will have less success if they leave the Big XII for the Big 10. It simply won’t improve their chances for BCS bowl selection.

Given even records, the BCS is more likely to pick Penn State, Ohio State, Mich, Iowa, and Wisc. over Mizzou. Close calls but probably Mich. State and Purdue get the nod over Mizzou. Tie-MIzzou/Illini (since there is such a rivalry I won’t split that). Mizzou only beats out Indiana, Northwestern and Minn. Mizzou will be ranked about 8th in the Big 10.

In the Big 12 Mizzou loses an even record draw against Texas, OU, A&M and Nebraska. Mizzou has even odds to beat out CU, Tech, and Kansas, for a bowl game. And Mizzou should beat out OSU, Ksate, Baylor, and Iowa State. So, I see Mizzou as having the chance to be the 5th choice, and possibly even the 4th choice in the Big XII. Mizzou has little chance to be in the top 5 of the Big 10.

I went to the Mizzou/Texas game this year in Columbia and while I want Mizzou to stay, I really am not that worried if you decide to leave.

by Wrangler86 on May 18, 2010 7:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Absolutely right.

My Iowa Hawkeyes (and the Wisconsin Badgers) have benefited from having one of the most loyal, well-traveling fanbases in the country a number of times in recent years. Just two years ago a more deserving Northwestern team was passed up for the Outback Bowl in favor of Iowa (who they beat head-to-head).

Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.

by Kyle McCann't on May 19, 2010 12:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

I may frame this post

I don’t know if I have ever seen an Iowa fan admit that they weren’t the more deserving team that year.

BTW, Northwestern jumped Wisconsin for the same bowl this year. I think that bowl committee just likes to mess with people.

by nuftw on May 19, 2010 1:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

More deserving on the field

but not for the purposes of a bowl; if you’re unable to half-fill a quaint, smallish stadium situated in one of the league’s nicest towns on a Big Ten Saturday then, nah, to Hell with you.

Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.

by Kyle McCann't on May 19, 2010 5:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

You guys are nailing it on the head

The bowl selection folks want to make money and look good with a full stadium and lots of hotel sales, etc. They aren’t loyal to anyone except what is in their best interest financially. If a team is unhappy the best way to remedy their bowl “status” is to improve their program, attendance, and appeal. Switching conferences isn’t going to help you much if you lose or don’t fill your own stadium at home against a top ranked team. Folks from Mizzou need to go see some SEC games and see what “trailparking” (my better half can never remember the term “tailgating”) is all about….If they play tOSU they will see what I mean—they have a ton there also.

by Wrangler86 on May 19, 2010 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thoughts on Big East making a strong move

There are a couple more articles on this subject I had trouble finding, but the Big East actually could benefit by forcing Notre Dame’s hand (requiring ND to join as a football school or leave). However, I think the general consensus is the Big East is a non-player in this mess and would never make such a bold move.

if ND declines the offer, they are way more likely to join the Big 10, thus potentially saving the Big East, at least temporarily.

If ND accepts the offer, the Big East has leverage for a new TV contract similar to what the ACC just negotiated.

http://www.nunesmagician.com/2010/4/19/1430983/the-big-east-will-not-exist-in-2013
http://inthebleachers.net/2009-articles/december/big-east-and-notre-dame.html

by dontcallmekram on May 18, 2010 12:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

Alabama fan here

I would absolutely love to see Texas and Texas A&M come to the SEC… that would be a true super conference.

by Richie Grogan on May 18, 2010 1:31 PM CDT reply actions  

I found this interesting...
CHICAGO (AP) — Don’t expect a decision on expansion anytime soon from the Big Ten.

Commissioner Jim Delany is basically sticking with the timeframe he laid out in December, when he said the league would explore its options over the next 12 to 18 months.

He says a decision is “months away.”

The conference grabbed the attention of everyone in college sports when it announced that it was considering whether to add to its current 11 members, a move that could lead to a domino effect in other leagues. But Delany insists this is “not as much about conferences as it is about institutions finding the right fit for themselves.”

He says gaining a foothold in growing Southern markets and expanding the reach of the lucrative Big Ten television network would be the main goals. He also says the Big Ten is “not looking for a championship game” in football.

Link

This means quite a bit for Texas…

JD’s like, "you want some fucking pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, bitches!"- RCCook

by laxtonto on May 18, 2010 2:28 PM CDT reply actions  

Well done

Enjoyed the read but a quick question or two. Why in the world is teh Big Math Challanged considering Neb over teams like rutgers, UConn, BC or Syracuse. That makes no sense to me.

I may have missed it but your thoughts on adding a team like Utah or BYU (yeah, the whole sunday thing) or Louisville to the BigXII in the event we lose Mizzu/Neb in a “keep the BigXII going” senerio.

Is it possible for TEXAS to go independent for football ala ND and stay in the BigXII for other sports?

by echeese on May 19, 2010 9:10 AM CDT reply actions  

Nebraska and Independence

(1) I believe that Nebraska is presumed to be a better option than the four Big East schools you mention because (a) it feels more like a typical Big Ten school (large Midwestern flagship university) than the Big East quartet, and (b) more importantly, though from a smallish state, it has more of a national following than most schools, and one would expect its games to draw more viewers to the BTN than the others.

(2) As far as independence goes, if it were on the table, and I’m a HUGE skeptic on that for a number of issues, I think it would have to be an all-or-nothing proposition. No football-only independence. Why would any other conference take in a Texas if it weren’t bringing its football program along?

by Hopkins Horn on May 19, 2010 8:23 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Rebuilding the Big XII

Assuming we’re in the hypothetical situation in which the Big XII loses NU and Mizzou, and no one else, and the Pac 10 isn’t expanding, my choices for the Big XII, would be, in order:

(1) Utah
(2) BYU
(3) Louisville (if available after a theoretical Big East explosion)

At this point, I hope Texas would leave if the conference can’t be retooled with any of the schools listed before this sentence, but to keep going for the hell of it:

(4) TCU
(5) Johns Hopkins
(6) Air Force
(7) Rice
(8) Colorado State
(9) Tulsa
(10) Houston

It should be obvious that I’m beginning to list the first schools which come to mind, so please feel free to insert the name of the MWC or C-USA school I’ve overlooked, but I personally hope Texas is long gone well before the relative mertis of adding Tulsa versus UTEP or SMU is the Big XII’s order of business.

by Hopkins Horn on May 19, 2010 8:34 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Association of American Universities

It is hard to stop laughing at the irony of this sentence, but here it is—a critical criteria for any expansion of the Big 10 from 11 to 12 teams will be adding a school that is also an AAU member. AAU members are considered the top 63 academic universities and ALL 11 Big 10 conference schools are members.Therefore, when looking at any expansion of the Big 10, using the list of 63 AAU members is a must. A caveat is that maybe Notre Dame is considered acceptable despite not being an AAU member. I’m not sure why Notre Dame is not an AAU member institution, but the fact that Georgetown is also not on the list makes me thinkg that there is some philosophical reason that these top tier Catholic schools are not members.

Non AAU members like UConn and BC are not likely choices for the Big 10, regardless of media market appeal.

Rutgers, Syracuse, Pitt, Neb, and Mizzou are all AAU members which makes them qualified logical targets for the Big 10. UT is a member, and A&M is one of the most recent members.

The lack of AAU membership by SEC institutions is part of the reason that it is less appealing to UT than many people understand. The PAC 10 has decent membership, and that is part of the reason that Colorado, which is an AAU member, is an intersting potential candidate for enhancing that conference.

by Wrangler86 on May 19, 2010 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Re: Georgetown and ND

AAU membership is typically extended to top tier research institutions – with a few interesting exceptions. ND and Georgetown, despite being excellent educational universities, are not strong research universities.

I think the Big 10’s willingness to accept ND despite its lack of research cred has to do with its reputation for education and academic rigor.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on May 19, 2010 10:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Conference Profit Sharing

The Big 10 has made it clear that each team shares equally in the conference bootie. The big 3 elite teams (Mich, tOSU and Penn State) do not demand more, they get the same as Northwestern and Minn.. Together the conference does better as a united group.

Perhaps Texas and OU should consider this concept in a revised money distribution agreement. If we are in a conference we should be promoting the entire conference in addition to ourselves. Perhaps we can do better to share the wealth of a strong and united Big XII.

by Wrangler86 on May 19, 2010 10:23 PM CDT reply actions  

I'm not sure...

…revising the Big XII’s rules to allow for a distribution of television revenues disproportionate to the number of television appearances would solve the Big XII’s problems.

If the Big XII did distribute television revenue in a way that failed to take into account the relative number of appearances a school makes, the per-school revenue gap between what each Big 10 school brings in and what each Big XII school brings in would remain quite wide. Combine that with the academic prowess of the conference, as you discuss above, and adding a million or two a year (if that) to Mizzou’s coffers through a different way for the Big XII to divide the pie would do little, if anything, to entice Mizzou to stay in the Big XII if the Big 10 came calling.

Nebraska has voted with Texas on the revenue division policy, so changing the rule wouldn’t help that school to stay, if the media reports that it is favorable to Big 10 membership are true. Though the same benefits to Big 10 membership would be enticing to NU as they are to Mizzou, I’m becoming increasingly convinced that what is driving NU is a hatred — well, maybe not quite a hatred, but a serious resentment — of Texas. Nebraska can no longer bully other teams on the football field as they regularly did in the good ol’ days, and they can no longer bully other conference schools to get its way off the field as well. I sense that they blame Texas for most, if not all, of it.

by Hopkins Horn on May 20, 2010 8:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

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