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Realignment Chronicles: Larry Scott, Kill This Deal



An open letter to the commissioner of the Pac 10 Conference...

Star-divide

Larry,

I can't tell you how thrilled I was, as a University of Texas alum, supporter and booster when I learned on Thursday that the Pac 10 Conference was prepared to invite six schools -- Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State and Colorado -- to join your conference.

I've been following conference realignment for a while now, and I believe that a Big XII implosion is inevitable and that Texas will need to find itself a new home.  The current staring match between Texas and Nebraska -- who will blink first, accept another conference's invitation and take the inevitable blame for "breaking up the Big XII" --is just the latest manifestation of this inevitability. Even if, somehow, someway, the Big XII survives the next month or so, it isn't long for this world.

I've been an advocate of a move to the Big 10, but, at the end of the day, I would be satisfied with a move to either the Big 10 or the Pac 10, the two athletically-compatible conferences which would offer academic upgrades for UT.  One reason I've supported a move to the Big 10 was from the belief that geography and the reality of Pac 10 conference politics would prevent the Pac 10 from being able to make an attractive enough offer.

But, lo and behold, you did it.  You've stunned the college world and have put together a package which can only be described as the "blank check" package for Texas.  You must really, really want us.  You're even OK with Texas Tech, and no one who has followed the intricacies of realignment politics believed that the Pac 10 would accept Tech and its Tier 3 academic ranking, given the requirement of unanimous approval from existing Pac 10 members (Stanford!)  to accept a new school.

I understand that you're "swallowing" Tech because Texas has a "Tech Problem," with "Tech Problem" presumably being shorthand for the political reality that pro-Tech forces in the Texas Legislature will require that Tech be allowed to come along with Texas into whatever conference we join.  Had I known from the get-go that the Tech Problem was a reality instead of a mere possibility, I doubt that I would have become the realignment-obsessed nerd that I am, given that I wouldn't have thought that either the Pac 10 or the Big 10 would take us.  I would have been too depressed at either of the two likely end-game results: staying in a decrepit Big XII or becoming the westernmost school of the SEC.  Shoot me now.

You seem to have accepted and overcome the Tech Problem, though, and for that, we are grateful, because doing so has allowed you to offer a package which seems to come close to solving the various concerns of athletic and academic compatibility, geography, rivalry maintenance and politics which Texas needs in an ideal situation.  So, congratulations to the Pac 10 for (presumably) being prepared to make this offer.

Now it is still possible that the Big 10 would match, and swallow hard and take Tech as well, and throw in a sweetener of a guaranteed annual game against Notre Dame if the Irish could also be convinced to join.  If Texas had that offer on the table as well, given the probable increase of hundreds of millions of dollars annually in research dollars available through the CIC, the Big 10 could still win the big prize on the table.  But I realize that a number of Big 10-centric observers of realignment think it improbable that the Big 10 would accept Tech.  We shall see.

Unfortunately, rumors are circulating that Texas state politics might force the Pac 10 to accept Baylor instead of Colorado.  Pro-Baylor forces within the Texas Legislature are being rallied by BU Regent and prominent Austin lobbyist Buddy Jones to force the other Texas schools considering invites to the Pac 10 to force the conference to take Baylor as well, or else, presumably, risk not receiving legislative backing for making a move.

In other words, allow Baylor to come along, or we'll make you stay behind in a conference which may be destined to become the SS SWC II after expansion efforts by other conferences take serious bites out of the Big XII, and the conference is forced to replace schools like Nebraska, Mizzou and Colorado with the likes of  TCU and UTEP and Houston.

The Dallas Morning News has obtained some emails written by Jones, and one of those emails indicates Jones' belief that Texas is solidly in Baylor's corner.  If true, I am very disappointed to learn this, even if UT's supposed backing of Baylor has been accomplished by a gun to the back of the school's head.

If Baylor's supporters in the Legislature are able to pull this off, and you're forced to contemplate a six-team expansion which includes Baylor but not Colorado, I have one plea for you:

Kill this deal.

Do you really want a goddamned lobbyist dictating to Stanford and Cal, and all of the other fine academic institutions of the Pac 10, and Arizona State, that a gnat of a school no one (and I mean NO ONE) wants in the Pac 10 is the price you have to pay to get Texas?

Baylor offers nothing.  Nada.  Zip.  It is a mere leech.  Well, OK, it seems to offer one thing: political expediency for the mass of pro-Texas, pro-A&M and pro-Tech legislators who seem to lack the testicular fortitude from preventing this from happening.

Despite what our school's leadership might say, fans of Texas do not want Baylor tagging along.  [Author's Note: please, readers of BON, if I am misrepresenting anyone's position with that sentence, please chime in!] And I would guess that UT's administration really doesn't want Baylor either.  There's a reason why Texas and Texas A&M originally thought that they, and they alone, would be leaving the SWC to join the schools of the Big 8.  I would also guess, given the surprise inclusion of Tech, that backroom negotiations had already worked out the optimal solution from UT's perspective with the original leaked group of six teams.

I don't presume to speak for Aggies and Red Raiders and Sooners and such, but I cannot imagine that any of them are really thrilled.  And if those who participate on message boards are good indicators for the general feelings among a school's fanbase as a whole, you would have been shocked to see how quickly opinion switched from being almost universally positive (Colorado!) to negative (Baylor?!?) among your conference's schools once news of the proposed forced substitution emerged.

Entering the Pac 10 this way would be bad for Texas.  Things didn't exactly get off on the right foot in the Big XII with the perception that Texas forced the schools of the Big XII to accept such an lightweight like Baylor.   (Well, that, and forcing Nebraska to recognize that things like "academic standards for institutions of higher learning" should actually exist.  But that's another story...)  And don't be fooled for a minute that you wouldn't be setting Texas up for long-term resentment by the existing schools of the Pac 10 if we force you to take Baylor.

I can easily see this in my mind, LA Coliseum, circa 2023:

USC Fan #1: (Looks at scoreboard, sees USC beating Baylor 65-3) Remind me again why this piece of garbage school is even on the same playing field as us?

USC Fan #2: Because Texas made us take 'em.

USC Fan #1: That's right.  I thought I disliked Texas after that Vince Young game, but it went to a whole other level after Baylor was forced on us.  I've always hated them since then.

Don't set up inherent instability in the conference because Texas forced the Pac 10 to take Baylor.  Kill it.  Tell Texas: "We solved the Tech Problem for you.  But you have to solve the Baylor Problem on your own.  Then we'll talk."

I think this would be great for Texas.  Texas would have, in its hand, a real-life, tangible example of how the Legislature, in a language the Legislature could understand (football!) is screwing Texas yet again, attaching unnecessary shackles which prevent the school from being the absolute best it could be.  A few years ago, Paul Burka, perhaps the best political reporter in Texas, wrote a great article for Texas Monthly, criticizing the Legislature for its failing to properly take care of the state's two flagship universities.

Though some of the details have changed in the years since Burka wrote that article, some of his words still ring very true today, particularly in light of what the Legislature is trying to force Texas to accept with Baylor:

But too much goes for pork barrel (legislators covet new satellite campuses of major universities in their districts) and too little for excellence.

the Legislature's preference for broad-based mediocrity over excellence is all too clear

But if you live in places like Houston or Dallas or San Antonio or Lubbock or El Paso, or represent one of them in the Legislature, an economic boom in Austin or College Station doesn't interest you very much. You want that flagship in your own back yard, transforming your economy, raising your standard of living.

Words all too easily applied to the situation at hand.  Supporters of Baylor would rather see the "broad-based mediocrity" of remaining in a dying and academically inferior conference than allowing Texas (and A&M and Tech) thrive for the long-term in a superior conference.

Please, Larry, implore your universities' presidents to do the right thing -- the right thing for you, and the right thing for us -- and kill this deal.  Don't let us do this to you.

Sincerely,

Hopkins Horn

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Well, you've summed up my thoughts quite nicely.

As a thought exercise, which of these is not like the others

Stanford – 688 million in annual research. 2nd ranked university in the world. 2nd in Team Titles (99), first in individual titles (432) in NCAA competition.

Baylor – 10 million in annual research. Unranked worldwide. 2 team titles in history. 39 individual titles in history.

Southern California – 519 million in annual research. 46th ranked university in the world. 3rd in team titles (91) and 2nd in individual titles (358) in NCAA competition.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on Jun 7, 2010 12:29 PM CDT reply actions  

AMEN BROTHER!

The Ralphie Report - University of Colorado Athletics
The Crimson and Cream Machine - University of Oklahoma Athletics

by Jon Woods on Jun 7, 2010 12:31 PM CDT reply actions  

I mean

I get where you’re going with this, but I’d be more pissed about Tech getting an invite than Baylor. Tech has sort-of-football-sometimes-but-not-usually and nothing else. At all. Baylor has crappy-most-of-the-time football and consistently-pretty-half-decent everything else, such as baseball, basketball, track & field. And a less depressing location for road trips (marginally). Comparable academics (I guess?)

In summary: if you’re actually willing to accept Tech, then it seems irrational not to accept Baylor as well.

by luxar on Jun 7, 2010 12:34 PM CDT reply actions  

Two counterpoints

1. Tech is a public university, which means that the Legislature *should" have a more vested interest in its well-being than Baylor’s.

2. Tech is decidedly West Texas and draws a completely different market share of Texas. It’s also decidedly much closer to Arizona and Arizona State, two schools it would be playing on a regular basis. Baylor’s Dallas “market” is already being covered by Texas and OU.

by jc25 on Jun 7, 2010 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'll accept

Your first argument. It makes sense that the government should look out for state schools’ best interests.

 I feel like your second argument kind of sucks, though (and don’t think I’m singling you out, pretty much everybody everywhere makes a similar argument these days). Call me a cynic, but just because it’s good for the big wigs and their coveted “market share” doesn’t mean it’s good for college football or college football fans. I feel fairly confident that if anything is going to eventually destroy the sport as we know it, it will be the unbridled greed that people are starting to accept as responsible and typical practice in college athletics. With all that’s transpired over the past few months, people are starting to lose sight of the fact that the focus OUGHT TO BE on academics and athletics, not on ways for AD’s and coaches to line their pockets.

by luxar on Jun 7, 2010 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

"the focus OUGHT TO BE on academics and athletics"?....

Well if it has anything to do with academics, that would be the reason CU is goin’ with us to the Pac 10 instead of Baylor…

by SneezyBeltran on Jun 7, 2010 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

you mean…the 2 schools right next to each other in the rankings?

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-universities-rankings/page+4

only thing CU has going for it academically is public funding.

by thedoctor on Jun 7, 2010 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

CU is a very good Academic Institution.

Stumpy: It's called the '80s. Ford was president, Nixon was in the White House, and FDR was running this country into the ground. I was bummin' in a hole-in-the-wall town in what is now called "Utah".

by kriess on Jun 7, 2010 6:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

yeah, both CU and Baylor are, that was my point.

by thedoctor on Jun 7, 2010 7:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Completely

And I’m not sure what kind of Doctor doesn’t care about graduate programs.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on Jun 7, 2010 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

we've definitely jumped the shark here...

and I’m sure CU has more programs than Baylor and more research dollars flowing in, especially as a public university and a more technical one, but Baylor seems to have well-ranked graduate programs by comparison in the big areas?

Business: BU: 52 CU: 71
Law: BU: 64 CU: 38
Medical: BU: 24 CU: 27

but yeah, we’ve beat this one to death. :)

by thedoctor on Jun 7, 2010 9:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

BCM hasn’t been affiliated with BU for decades.

by ohman08 on Jun 7, 2010 9:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

huh, didn’t know. i suppose CU doesn’t have one either, it’s with University of Colorado-Denver, now that I think about it.

by thedoctor on Jun 7, 2010 9:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

Debatable, as it came about from the merger of two CU member institutes, and is (understandably) located in the largest city in the state.

by ohman08 on Jun 7, 2010 9:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

wasn’t BCM affiliated with Baylor previously as well though?

by thedoctor on Jun 7, 2010 10:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

You dont have to look up the year anymore

This comes up in every discussion, and learned always sets it straight

It's a Horns' world. Even Aggies play hoops with a burnt orange ball.

by Speedway on Jun 8, 2010 5:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

Confused.
Call me a cynic, but just because it’s good for the big wigs and their coveted "market share" doesn’t mean it’s good for college football or college football fans.

Texas is a phenomenal academic school, and for this reason neither the Big 10 nor the Pac-10 would have to hold its nose to let Texas in.

That point being established, do you think the Big 10 and the Pac-10 want Texas primarily a) because Texas is a strong academic school, or b) because Texas offers financial opportunities in local and national television markets that are nearly unrivaled. If you think a), I wonder why the Big 10 isn’t interested in the University of Pennyslvania (maybe they are, I just don’t know)?

This entire thing is about money, primarily about money. For Texas, it represents potentially millions more a year that can be spent on atheltics, which may include a lot of funding that kids would not have access to otherwise. That’s a good thing, right?

Go register. Or else.

by Skin Patrol on Jun 7, 2010 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Big 10 will pry UPenn out of the Ivy League from John Wharton’s cold, dead hands…Wait…

Seriously though, I don’t think they’re looking for another U of Chicago exception. But I have been wrong before…

proud to swim home

by learned hand on Jun 7, 2010 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

I know exactly why they want Texas

And it’s purely for option b). And that’s precisely the reason why it all seems fishy to me. Doesn’t decision-making that is made solely in pursuit of money-grabbing make you at least a little bit uncomfortable? This kind of decision-making is where things like the BCS come from.

And if you think that money is going to the “kids”, you’re kidding yourself. College athletes have been unpaid professionals for decades now, and they’re going to remain unpaid until some bizarre proletariat uprising of the athlete-class occurs (fat chance). (And don’t give me the scholarship BS. A UT student athlete’s time and effort is worth more than $15,000 a year, assuming they’re in-state).

by luxar on Jun 7, 2010 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Doesn’t decision-making that is made solely in pursuit of money-grabbing make you at least a little bit uncomfortable?

No? Do you think I’m uncomfortable going to work?

Go register. Or else.

by Skin Patrol on Jun 7, 2010 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

surely you went to McCombs

They do a pretty good job of sucking out souls.

I’m gonna come over to your house tomorrow and steal most of your belongings to sell on ebay. Luckily that won’t make you uncomfortable.

by luxar on Jun 7, 2010 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Criminal behavior directed at my personal property makes me uncomfortable.

But that’s not really what you were originally asking about, was it?

You want me to agree with you that actions motivated exclusively by greed are inherently “fishy” (if not evil). There are enough millions of counter-examples that I don’t need to repeat any to rebut your completely untenable position.

Go register. Or else.

by Skin Patrol on Jun 7, 2010 5:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's not completely untenable

The idea that decisions can be made in a moral vacuum without some things inevitably going badly is untenable.

There are also many examples of greed-exclusive decision making leading to disasters (see: mafia). The times that those sorts of decisions didn’t lead to problems were in spite of greed, not because of it. There’s a reason why philosophers, religious types, and generally logical people tend to consider greed a bad thing when not paired with trappings of ethical behavior.

But this has gone way beyond college football at this point. I’ll let you have the last word if you want it.

by luxar on Jun 7, 2010 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Or...

…perhaps Milton Friedman could explain it to him.

by utexas87 on Jun 7, 2010 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

The irony is that

Milton Friedman assisted Pinochet and his junta in Chile, whom most people considered evil.

by luxar on Jun 7, 2010 9:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Um...sure he did.

Friedman and Pinochet were best buds and conspired together to conqure and control the Chilean people. I’ve now read your other posts; I’m not going there.

by utexas87 on Jun 7, 2010 9:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh c'mon

we’ll not go there, but you did start it.

by luxar on Jun 7, 2010 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

what could possibly be MORE...

motivated by greed than Baylor’s insistence on tagging along? To a conference they really do not fit into in any way at all? Where they’ll continue to be a drag in every sense of the word? And where they’ll continue to be largely uncompetitive going against bigger, better endowed and more powerful schools every week? But…. they’re willing to do it for – you guessed it – the money.

There is no other reason for them to even desire to go. It’s all about the money. Sounds rather greedy to me…

by Pflash on Jun 8, 2010 12:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Surely you jest sir

Please tell me you’re not that naive frisbee golf guy hanging out on the west mall.

Your tongue can't repel flavor of that magnitude!!

by UT2001 on Jun 7, 2010 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

isn't the west mall

mostly concrete? don’t know why somebody would be hanging out over there chunking frisbees around…

But yes, I jest. I’ve spent years inside the belly of the beast that is McCombs, so I feel (over)qualified to comment on it facetiously. Forgive me if I offended you and your degree.

by luxar on Jun 7, 2010 8:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

apology accepted

Your tongue can't repel flavor of that magnitude!!

by UT2001 on Jun 7, 2010 8:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

It seems we're at a bit of a crossroads

This situation represents a showdown between college football purists and nouveau chic sports business wheeler dealers. Which camp Powers and Dodds reside in remains to be seen but the purists usually come out on the losing end of financial matters.

The college football landscape is really starting to shape up a lot like the WWF and the 2005 USC Trojans- all about cash, marketing and hype but lacking in fundamental strength. One of the reasons I’ve loved college sports for so long was the respite it provided from the classless pro sports atmosphere. Now it appears we’re headed directly down the same road with a Jerry MacGuire or Lane Kiffin at every turn. Not a good example to set for future generations.

"You've got to think lucky. If you fall into a mudhole, check your back pocket - you might have caught a fish" -- Darrell Royal

by SpiritOfTheFedora on Jun 7, 2010 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

But we've managed to keep our integrity . . .

. . . being around schools associated with Oklahoma used car dealers and FedEx shipments. We can handle whatever improprieties could be coming our way from out west. (And I’m not worried about that at all, myself.)

by Hopkins Horn on Jun 7, 2010 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

we may have our integrity

relative to other universities, but college football in general lost it’s integrity awhile ago with the rise of ESPN & cable television; and conference realignment for the sake of greater television share is just another step in the wrong direction.

by luxar on Jun 7, 2010 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agree

I think being in the same conference with OU has helped us immensely in building our ‘brand’. I think the brand would only get stronger and I’m not worried that we’d take on Kiffin-like characteristics, especially with Mack and Boom still around. What worries me is the overall message.

"You've got to think lucky. If you fall into a mudhole, check your back pocket - you might have caught a fish" -- Darrell Royal

by SpiritOfTheFedora on Jun 7, 2010 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is almost exactly the way I see it as well

And a major reason why I am really not in support of decisions made primarily, or in some cases almost solely, due to financial & media exposure reasons. I’m not under some naive notion that money doesn’t talk, but that doesn’t mean I have to support decisions made in the spirit of “capturing markets” like so many FOOTBALL FANS seem ready to do.

by luxar on Jun 7, 2010 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Tech may have to rehabilitate itself.

There’s the real possibility that the Leach lawsuit may blow Tech up…but this could be a good thing, particularly in terms of this deal. Hance and Meyers are probably goners, from my reading of the lawsuit, and maybe a few more on the Board of Regents for abetting and condoning the actions wrt Leach.

Meyers can retire gracefully and Hance is a politico that can weasel his way into the background or the dustbin. I don’t care how this occurs, but the Lege – and the other public universities – can push Tech to develop into being a better educational entity.

The growth of Tech satellites – like Texas Tech Highland Lakes, already growing after several years – which have been planted the last half decade, as well as an expanding base of alumni now showing a wide range of support, gives Tech a stronger grip than it had a decade ago. The local alumni here were concerned about this growth, the great progress that had been made, when the Leach affair began. These alumni had done well enough in these pursuits to realize that Tech’s own limitations were a liability. So, I see some hope for the future for the Tech Problemo.

Last, the Tech alumni here are relatively close to the Texas Alumni here, a lot of interactivity in a manner that doesn’t quite exist as far as A&M and Baylor. Perhaps we have a lot of people who have settled here in the Highland Lakes from the Midland-Lubbock lexus and that spurs the camaraderie. (Lakes Buchanan and LBJ were once the closest bodies of water to West Texas for fishing and recreation, so those folks who came here decades ago now retire here.)

Last, for me personally, I’m most comfortable with western culture than those east of the Mississippi. It’s not like we don’t mix cultures anyway, but being from the central part of the state and spending a lot of time in the west, I’m at ease with this.

You’re gonna have to KO Baylor one way or another. Even if A&M should get all gutsy and independent and go to the SEC, I’d take Nebraska over Baylor. And that’s saying something, although it would make dime scream and yell.

by whills on Jun 7, 2010 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Whills, good point and it's also one that I maintain about the cultures.

I don’t particularly care for the SEC and all the southern stuff, but some people think that since we’re in the southern region(technically southwest) of the US that we automatically identify with other southerners.
I’m a Texan and if anything identify more with the west than the south and would prefer the western culture and Pac 10 as well

by SneezyBeltran on Jun 7, 2010 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

That’s true of Austin and some other parts of Texas. Go east and they identify more with the South. Texas is complicated.

by dimecoverage on Jun 7, 2010 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

As one of my favorite jokes from a recent Esther's Follies show goes,

They’re in a different time zone in East Texas, so when you go there you have to set your watch back 100 years.

by LonghornEm on Jun 7, 2010 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Coincidentally just about the same spot the pine trees start to thin out...nt

"You've got to think lucky. If you fall into a mudhole, check your back pocket - you might have caught a fish" -- Darrell Royal

by SpiritOfTheFedora on Jun 7, 2010 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think it even gets to Texas

I think the official border line with the “deep south” is the place where they start/stop selling Sweet Tea. I have tried several times to figure out just where that happens, and it seems to be near Lake Charles

by Wrangler86 on Jun 7, 2010 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Huh?

Where do you live in Texas where you cannot get Sweet Tea? About the only place I cannot get sweet tea in Texas is Mexican restaurants, and even then the majority of them serve it. Also, the oldest known recipe for sweet tea is from a Texan.

by TexasReb on Jun 7, 2010 10:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yea But...

If you order ice tea in Texas without saying anything else its normally not sweet tea as opposed to Bama or Georgia where Sweet Tea is the norm.

by Silentjay on Jun 7, 2010 11:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yet again, huh?

Never had that problem. I also spent the past 5 years in Georgia and Alabama and there isn’t much different in ordering tea. Even there they ask whether you want sweet or unsweet. I guess that’s what gets on my nerves about people on this blog talking about whether or not Texas is part of the “South.” After living there, I didn’t see much difference. It isn’t “a whole other country” as many seem to believe.

by TexasReb on Jun 8, 2010 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well I'm from west Texas and obviously identify with the west more than the south

You are very true Dime in that Texas is complicated….big state with many different cultures within its boundaries.

by SneezyBeltran on Jun 7, 2010 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm Texan as well

But I guess I’m just closer to the other end of the spectrum. I would guess I skew more to the southern/SEC culture than the west-coast/PAC-10 culture (GD Hippies!), but I know that’s just a personal thing that’s really neither here nor there as far as conference affiliation goes. Guess I’d just fit in better at tailgates, but I can get over that.

by luxar on Jun 7, 2010 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Also, the national perception of Tech

is that they are on the rise, both athletically and academically. Baylor seems to have had their best days long ago.

I still couldn’t see that as being enough to get them entrance into the Big Ten but for a conference still rooted in an area of the country experiencing growth, the Pac 10 may just see them as an investment.

Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.

by Kyle McCann't on Jun 7, 2010 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Tech doesn't bother me so much

we already have a tier 3 school in Oregon State, and at least it appears that the state of Texas is going to pony up some dough and try and improve academics at Tech.

Baylor is the freaking joke I want no part of.

--Dave
Addicted to Quack, SBN's Oregon Ducks blog

by David Piper on Jun 7, 2010 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

I mean

I’m not gonna tell you that Baylor is not a freaking joke (I don’t really have evidence to back that up), but at least my perception around here, and I think it’s pretty similar amongst UT students, is that Baylor and Tech are largely comparable athletically & academically, except for the Leach years in football, with Baylor being marginally better in most other sports.

Is it a widespread perception on the west coast that Tech is (apparently) lightyears ahead of Baylor? Because being a lot closer to both schools, and knowing people who go to both, the difference isn’t as great as your rhetoric suggests it is, imho. Someone please correct me if the difference is really ZOMG GIGANTIC.

PS I’m probably coming off as a Baylor homer with these posts and that makes me feel retarded. I’m not, I just don’t see how Tech is really any more worthy than Baylor. Both worthless, imho haha.

by luxar on Jun 7, 2010 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

The difference is at the graduate level

Outside of the Law school (which is very good), Baylor lacks the resources of Texas Tech. The graduate level is also where schools tend to built their reputations.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on Jun 7, 2010 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Baylor is a private institution, Texas Tech belongs to the people of Texas.

Tech is not necessarily “more worthy than Baylor” but the people of Texas, and their legislators, certainly have more of an interest in Texas Tech’s financial well-being than that of Baylor, seeing as how they’re subsidizing one and not the other.

If this is about politics, who cares what Baylor wants? They are not a governmental entity. Texas Tech is.

Go register. Or else.

by Skin Patrol on Jun 7, 2010 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Let's call a spade a spade

the Pac-10 isn’t offering to invite Texas. They are offering to kick out Arizona and Arizona State to form a new conference with Texas and whatever schools they want and can get. The schools in these two conferences will play a “Challenge” like they currently do in basketball where each school plays one cross-conference game a year. Also, the champions of each conference will also play.

In other words, Baylor will play at USC once every 16 years. I think they’ll get over it.

by nuftw on Jun 7, 2010 12:37 PM CDT reply actions  

Wrong

It’s the same conference.

The Pac 10 currently plays a nine-game schedule. The most obvious way to divide the 16 teams is into two divisions (with, as you note, the two Arizona schools going to the other division, not conference). Play all seven schools in the same division, and two crossover games (one home, one away) each season.

That would lead to Baylor visiting USC once every eight years, the same frequency with which Georgia visits Baton Rouge.

by Hopkins Horn on Jun 7, 2010 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

No . . .

. . . it would just mean one less OOC game — which could be a concern to some. Though, from what I’ve read, the Pac 10 schools don’t mind foregoing an extra money game nowadays because there aren’t as many Sun Belt-quality pushovers in nearby territory.

by Hopkins Horn on Jun 7, 2010 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

From what I've heard

most in the Pac-10 do not like having 9 conference games. I would personally be very surprised if this new grouping would have more than 8 conference games. They might even go to 7 games a year. Of course, I’ve been wrong before and will be again so who knows.

by nuftw on Jun 7, 2010 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

I love having 9 conference games. People like to blame it for the lack of getting 2 BCS games, but that simply hasn’t been the case.

If the Pac-16 happens, I hope they keep 9 games, because I want to watch good football, and 9 games would work perfectly in a 16 team conference.

--AddictedToQuack, SBNation's Oregon Ducks blog

by jtlight on Jun 7, 2010 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Without 9 games . . .

. . . Texas really does visit Eugene once every 16 teams. And it doesn’t make sense for you to support this if we wouldn’t be visiting, in theory, until 2027 or so.

by Hopkins Horn on Jun 7, 2010 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, it seems like 9 games is the only option (7 divisional, 2 other division). You preserve every divisional game, but also keep a good but not overbearing amount of inter-divisional travel.

The main argument against this is bowl-related. And if this move happens, the bowls will drastically change as well, so that can be re-worked to fit conference desires.

--AddictedToQuack, SBNation's Oregon Ducks blog

by jtlight on Jun 7, 2010 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

If other 16-teams conferences emerge . . .

. . . one would hope that they’d all get on the same page as to whether eight or nine conference games would be the preferred number.

by Hopkins Horn on Jun 7, 2010 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

For the sake of watching a lot of good football, I hope it’s 9.

--AddictedToQuack, SBNation's Oregon Ducks blog

by jtlight on Jun 7, 2010 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

As someone who likes the idea of a 16-team Big Ten

I would be alright with a continuation of an 8-game league schedule provided the conference adopts a 4 “pod” system instead of 2 divisions. This would still allow for a much greater sense of community with the pods shuffling match-ups every few years.

Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.

by Kyle McCann't on Jun 7, 2010 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

for the Pac-10

I hate the pod system, but for the exact same reason you want it. I want my games with traditional rivals like USC and Cal. I want to play the other games, but I don’t really care to play Oklahoma State or Texas Tech as often as Stanford or UCLA.

--Dave
Addicted to Quack, SBN's Oregon Ducks blog

by David Piper on Jun 7, 2010 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

From a fan perspective 9 home games is much better. The issue is that it effectively costs the school a home game every other year, which to large programs is a huge money maker.

by nuftw on Jun 7, 2010 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

*9 conference games…

ADs would love 9 home games.

by nuftw on Jun 7, 2010 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

It actually wouldn't be an issue for Texas

We already give up a home game every other year with OU. In years in which we’d have five home and four road conference games, one of the “home” games would be OU in Dallas.

by Hopkins Horn on Jun 7, 2010 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

lol that is just creative accounting. Currently Texas every two years has 7 home games, 7 away games and 2 neutral sites. Under a 9 game conference schedule, Texas would have 8 home games, 8 away games, and 2 neutral sites every two years. There would be an extra away game for Texas every two years, just like everyone else. Effectively, Texas would have an away game against the Pac-8 every year instead of every other year.

by nuftw on Jun 7, 2010 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, it really is all about the money. Hopefully the much better money through TV deals can help convince ADs to go with 9 conference games.

--AddictedToQuack, SBNation's Oregon Ducks blog

by jtlight on Jun 7, 2010 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's all guesswork at this point . . .

. . . but a pure divisional line-up, regardless of the number of conference games, makes more sense for a theoretical 16-school Pac 16 than it would for theoretical 16-school Big 10 and SEC.

by Hopkins Horn on Jun 7, 2010 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

We love 9 conference games

the true round robin is one of the best things in college football.

--Dave
Addicted to Quack, SBN's Oregon Ducks blog

by David Piper on Jun 7, 2010 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

The lack of real round robin is my biggest complaint about making this change.

it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"

by JShufelt on Jun 7, 2010 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

i think the entire country has taken a look at this and said ‘shit division’.

we can yodel sweet “silk purse” to each other all we want, but the rest of the country will be chuckling and saying “sow’s ear”.

by rumplestiltsglenn on Jun 7, 2010 5:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Big Expansionski

A&M: Pac-10 lives in North Hollywood on Radford, near the In-and-Out Burger—

Texas: The In-and-Out Burger is on Camrose.

A&M: Near the In-and-Out Burger—

Tech: Those are good burgers, A&M.

A&M: Shut the fuck up, Tech. This kid is in the ninth grade, Dude, and his father is—are you ready for this?— Arthur Digby Sellers.

TEXAS: Who the fuck is that?

A&M: Huh?

TEXAS: Who the fuck is Arthur Digby Sellers?

Tech: We’ll be near the In-and-Out Burger.

A&M: Shut the fuck up, Tech. We’ll, uh, brace the kid—he’ll be a pushover. We’ll get that fucking money, if he hasn’t spent it already. Million fucking clams. And yes, we’ll be near the, uh—some burgers, some beers, a few laughs. Our fucking troubles are over, Dude.

by TheBlanton on Jun 7, 2010 12:38 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Not gonna lie I laughed...

…even though I have no idea what the fuck you’re talking about?

by tvr'11 on Jun 7, 2010 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is why

you don’t f*ck a stranger in the ass…

Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.

by Kyle McCann't on Jun 7, 2010 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Donny is a better bowler than Walter.

Go register. Or else.

by Skin Patrol on Jun 7, 2010 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

True. Ironically, we never see The Dude actually bowl on screen.

"I'm young, but I'm old-fashioned." - Will Muschamp

by BMC237 on Jun 7, 2010 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

baylor

I agree with the sentiment of this for the most part. However, I would rather have Baylor and a new Pac-16, than nothing at all.

by Jason Mayer on Jun 7, 2010 12:44 PM CDT reply actions  

My assumption . . .

. . . is that, if this got kicked back to the Legislature after the Pac 10 vetoed Baylor, the pro-Texas, pro-Tech and pro-A&M forces in the Legislature, in collaboration with their respective universities, would finally have the balls to tell Baylor and its hired gun lobbyist to STFU.

by Hopkins Horn on Jun 7, 2010 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

yes

That is exactly my hope, too.

by Jason Mayer on Jun 7, 2010 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks for writing this

I hate, HATE the idea of Baylor in the Pac-10. An insignificant religious school thats mediocre is almost every way and has no alumni or market share in any significant numbers. Meanwhile, Colorado adds a great market, and is a Pac-10 caliber school in every way.

I can’t understand why the legislature would go for bat for a private school. Hell, I’d rahter have freaking Houston in the Pac-10 over Baylor. I don’t even care about money, this should be a complete dealbreaker on principle alone.

--Dave
Addicted to Quack, SBN's Oregon Ducks blog

by David Piper on Jun 7, 2010 12:46 PM CDT reply actions  

also

we already have Washington State to be our whipping boy and run up the score on. We don’t need another.

--Dave
Addicted to Quack, SBN's Oregon Ducks blog

by David Piper on Jun 7, 2010 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good argument to annoy the hell out of Baylor.

We need you as another bye week each season. Maybe that would send them running to teh Mountain West with TCU.

by dimecoverage on Jun 7, 2010 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

No way TCU stomachs being in the same conference as Baylor. You think you guys are bitter about Baylor tagging along, it’s nothing compared to what the left behind

by HawkeyedFrog on Jun 7, 2010 9:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

One good argument against Texas joining the Pac-10

You have to deal with delusional, short-sighted Duck fans. That game was in Autzen, by the way.

I welcome some good Texas/Wazzu matchups. Yes, we’re awful now, but we won’t be down forever. And every once in a while we can surprise some people.

by Grady Clapp on Jun 7, 2010 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

see my response to you in the "baylor baylor baylor" thread

You are downplaying BU’s academics and athletics, and overstating their religiosity (and this is coming from a confirmed atheist who chose UT over Baylor).

by LonghornEm on Jun 7, 2010 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Who really cares about academics

When you only graduate 42 percent of football players anyway? That number is similar in basketball. The academics at these schools are great in the Pac-10, sure. But at the end of the day who’s talking smack about how much research money they got?

People talk smack about football titles and hoops and baseball dominance.

So, why not just go east and join the best football conference there is in the SEC? There are way more intriguing matchups in the SEC … and not just football.

I’m not sure why so many Horns fans are dead-set against the SEC. The academics argument is baloney. Because if it’s really about better academics, then the Big 10, ACC or Independent is the way to go.

"Excuse me while I whip this out."

by FreedomDip on Jun 7, 2010 12:51 PM CDT reply actions  

eh

I care about both (I go here, so I ought to), but I don’t see athletic conference affiliation having as big an impact on academic success as people seem to often suggest. I wouldn’t mind going to the SEC.

Vandy’s a better school academically than Texas and they haven’t been demolished by the SECSECSEC (ok, those sorts of chants might get annoying. There’s a real reason to avoid it). I think academics is an overblown argument by people who don’t want to go to the SEC for other reasons (what those are, you’ll have to ask them).

by luxar on Jun 7, 2010 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ha!
Simon insists the media have under-emphasized the importance of academics in the Big Ten’s deliberations.

Well, some people haven’t under-emphasized that. :)

But I wonder if this kills the dream of the Big 10 swalling hard and accepting Tech?

by Hopkins Horn on Jun 7, 2010 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

That’s how I read it. If the legislature had a real commitment to make Tech a top flight graduate institution, then I could see the Big 10 taking it on potential, but the PUF as currently administered is too little, too late, spread too many ways.

It could make things interesting though, because interest lost by the Big 10 could turn into leverage lost with the Pac 10.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on Jun 7, 2010 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Increased Pac-10 leverage, means less Baylor getting in.

by chowder on Jun 7, 2010 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

Look who else has joined the academic bandwagon

Kirk Bohls!

Here’s one of the main reasons Texas wants to join the Pac-10: academic elitism. Texas wants to rub elbows with the Stanfords and Cal-Berkeleys of the world and considers itself a better fit with them, UCLA and USC than it does the Big 12. Is that snobbishness? Absolutely.

This is from the same columnist who not all that long ago thought that the Horns would take a look at the SEC.

by Hopkins Horn on Jun 7, 2010 11:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

shenanigans!

somebody go find my broom.

by luxar on Jun 7, 2010 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

They're not kidding.

They’re really not kidding. CIC

proud to swim home

by learned hand on Jun 7, 2010 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

They may not be kidding

but if they’re willing to invite Nebraska, then they’re certainly lying (as we found out via emails released by the Dispatch that most school presidents have likely been doing already anyhow). What they’re really obsessed with is money, in all forms and flavors.

by luxar on Jun 7, 2010 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nebraska's grad programs are quite good

That’s what matters in this discussion.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on Jun 7, 2010 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeesh

This counters my surface argument, but reinforces my underlying argument and perception of university admins as snakes.
Grad program = research dollars = money obsession. Was there ever a good ol’ days when universities were chiefly about education rather than profit? And is there a time machine that can relocate me there?

by luxar on Jun 7, 2010 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Time Machine

Lte me know if you find one. I’d love to fish the Laguna Madre two hundred years ago.

"You've got to think lucky. If you fall into a mudhole, check your back pocket - you might have caught a fish" -- Darrell Royal

by SpiritOfTheFedora on Jun 7, 2010 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Laguna Madre

I believe that’s Spanish for “smells really bad.”

by bfaut86 on Jun 7, 2010 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC!

They already told us we could start our own television station. Isn’t that the most important thing here?

by chilimilkjones on Jun 7, 2010 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ewww No thank you

I do not want SEC stank on Texas

by Silentjay on Jun 7, 2010 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don’t understand why baylor would want to be part of the pac 10. when the swc died baylor tagged along to the big 12 and was a consistent cellar dweller. tcu went it’s own way and has had good success in all sports. I think that the best opportunity for baylor to develop their programs would be in mwc or similar conference.

by im4ut on Jun 7, 2010 12:51 PM CDT reply actions  

Can I be USC Fan #1?

Nice piece all in all.

--Conquest Chronicles , SBNation's USC Trojans blog

Follow me on Twitter @Joey_Kaufman

by Joey Kaufman on Jun 7, 2010 12:59 PM CDT reply actions  

Sure!

That means you get this line:

I thought I disliked Texas after that Vince Young game,

Be sure to rehearse over and over again. :)

by Hopkins Horn on Jun 7, 2010 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hey, that game was painful

I still have nightmares about Vince Young.

--Conquest Chronicles , SBNation's USC Trojans blog

Follow me on Twitter @Joey_Kaufman

by Joey Kaufman on Jun 7, 2010 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good words. Let's make this happen!

"Football's so important in Texas. On the West Coast, it's a social. On the East Coast, it's a culture. Here, it's a religion."
-- Major Applewhite

by Sunkist on Jun 7, 2010 1:02 PM CDT reply actions  

Nice piece HH...

Truly. I cannot stand the aspect of Texas politics at times. I live in SoCal and would LOVE for this to become reality. Baylor is well, Baylor…and Tweeter drank beer cuz Tweeter drinks beer.

"Stats are for losers. I like winning games." ~ Will Muschamp
""I always felt like, and I paid a price for it, that it didn't seem right for one guy to bring me down." ~ The Tyler Rose

by Mulliganville on Jun 7, 2010 1:05 PM CDT reply actions  

Thank you

I can’t stand that f’n Baylor could potentially ruin the most important move in college football in at least a decade. They don’t belong in the Big 12, and they certainly don’t belong in the super conference.

by mikey 4 on Jun 7, 2010 1:23 PM CDT reply actions  

Totally disagree, 100%. I think Baylor makes much more sense than CU, who needs to be the MWC with its close geographic neighbors and rivals. It’s one thing if Baylor is going to “ruin the deal,” but if the Pac-10 is willing to take Baylor, then I’m all for it.

by LonghornEm on Jun 7, 2010 1:55 PM CDT reply actions  

yes I am

but I don’t live there any more and actually turned down a full scholarship from Baylor to go to Texas. I’m not in love with the school, but I think I have a more informed and balanced perspective on the school than a lot of Horn fans who just think the school is a punchline.

by LonghornEm on Jun 7, 2010 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

As the idiot who took the scholarship and then transferred to Texas,

I invite you to make an argument that can be made in favor of Baylor that couldn’t also be made for Rice, SMU, or TCU.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on Jun 7, 2010 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Baylor has a more complete athletic program than all of them

except maybe TCU, but I’d venture to guess even them.

by tvr'11 on Jun 7, 2010 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

The historical championship numbers say otherwise

I don’t follow any of them enough to sort varying degrees of mediocrity. All of the them are chaff before the non-revenue threshing machines of Stanford and USC.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on Jun 7, 2010 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

this

Plus we have an over 100 year old series with Baylor and are still tied to them. Not so for SMU, Rice, or TCU – we may have played them in the past, but the SWC is long-gone. What I said on the other thread, now that I’m not too lazy to look it up

Also they have more conference titles and a larger endowment than several of the other Big 12 members, more appearances in the baseball tournament than we do, and though they’re mediocre in football, they are traditionally very strong in baseball, tennis, track, and women’s basketball, and don’t forget they were a basket away from going to the Final Four this past March. They aren’t a powerhouse, but they aren’t horrible either.

Not to mention that we have a 4-game losing streak against them in basketball, which my dad keeps reminding me of.

by LonghornEm on Jun 7, 2010 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

So the argument for Baylor is,

UT has played them for between 1-16 years longer than the other three, and they’re not as bad as Iowa State? Its endowment is hardly comparable to Rice, the research departments are a fraction of the size of anything in the Big 12 (or Rice and SMU for that matter).

Also, how much of its athletic success is purely due to the Big 12 T.V. contract and the revenue advantage over the other three?

Baylor is a fine undergraduate school but it seems utterly indistinguishable from any number of Texas private schools. All of them would be filler in a super-conference.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on Jun 7, 2010 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree that they would still probably be bottom feeders

But CU would be as well, and not have success in other sports to show for it. My point is not that Baylor is a perfect fit and a peer of the Pac-10, just that I don’t think they are an outrageous idea, especially as compared to CU and when you’re taking the other 5 Big 12 South schools. And CU would hardly be left out in the cold.

by LonghornEm on Jun 7, 2010 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

CU adds value

with a very large TV market. Baylor adds nothing.

--Dave
Addicted to Quack, SBN's Oregon Ducks blog

by David Piper on Jun 7, 2010 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

haha, you clearly know nothing about Colorado and CU. Sure, there’ a large TV market here, but it’s all about pro sports, especially the Broncos. Yes, we’re a big TV and sports market. I wouldn’t expect “very large” TV numbers from local CU fans.

That is, unless you bring Nebraska. Even during the CU glory years, there were more NU fans here.

by thedoctor on Jun 7, 2010 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

They "bring" the Denver market

and that’s all that matters.

The Ralphie Report - University of Colorado Athletics
The Crimson and Cream Machine - University of Oklahoma Athletics

by Jon Woods on Jun 7, 2010 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

It doesn't matter how many people actually watch

having CU forces Denver cable companies to carry our network. That’s all that really matters.

--Dave
Addicted to Quack, SBN's Oregon Ducks blog

by David Piper on Jun 7, 2010 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly.

The Ralphie Report - University of Colorado Athletics
The Crimson and Cream Machine - University of Oklahoma Athletics

by Jon Woods on Jun 7, 2010 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

if they put it only in premium packages for hardcore CU fans, that’s not the case. they only pay a fee per sub, as I understand.

We’ve already seen fans of lesser sports in various markets get screwed in that manner — see VS and Direct TV with hockey, etc. For some time Altitude (one of our regional sports networks) wasn’t available on all cable and dish providers, and that was pro sports!

I wouldn’t be so sure that it forces anything in Denver.

by thedoctor on Jun 7, 2010 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

If you had this, you would also be going after all the UW, WSU, Oregon, Oregon State, Cal, Stanford, USC, UCLA, Arizona, Arizona State, Texas, Texas Tech, Texas A&M, Oklahoma, and Oklahoma State fans/alumni in the Denver market, not just the CU fans. You’ll also get some from big college football/sports fans.

it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"

by JShufelt on Jun 7, 2010 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

True. Wonder how many transplants there are? Enough to force it in a smaller package? I know there’s a lot of California people here, but they don’t seem to be very vocal sports fans in the college arena. The transplanted Californians in my company could care about college.

by thedoctor on Jun 7, 2010 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

A lot of it depends on who you spend time around too.

I’m Colorado-born and raised, and I knew a lot of people that were pretty big into Colorado. Exposure and success will help grow the CU market.

Dan Hawkings hasn’t exactly been a good thing for the program.

it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"

by JShufelt on Jun 7, 2010 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

CU also has a lot of alumni on the west coast.

Say what you mean, and say it mean. - Clint Ruin

by QuackinAK on Jun 8, 2010 12:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

They’ve been in more Big 12 Championship games this decade than Nebraska.

by HawkeyedFrog on Jun 7, 2010 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

No moochers

Your tongue can't repel flavor of that magnitude!!

by UT2001 on Jun 7, 2010 7:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

What reason is there for Baylor to go instead of CU?

CU has far more marketability, capital, and competitiveness, and fits in pretty well with the Pac-10 culture. They’d be a remarkable fit in the Pac-10, even better than Texas would be.

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

by burntorangehorn on Jun 7, 2010 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Actually Baylor has a larger endowment than CU

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_12_Conference. And Baylor finished with a better record than Colorado this past year even while their incredible QB went out with an ACL tear, and Colorado has been anything but competitive in recent years. I don’t think there is really a significantly better case for one or the other, but I’d prefer Baylor. I have no strong feelings about Colorado one way or the other, but I think it makes sense for them to join the MWC.

by LonghornEm on Jun 7, 2010 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Baylor may have a larger endowment, but not more money

State schools are sometimes going to have smaller endowments, but that doesn’t mean they don’t have much, much more money. But endowment’s not the point. No one cares about Baylor sports. There are no televisions that come with Baylor. There is very little in terms of research. It’s just not a strong member in either of those capacities, nor is it a good cultural fit for the Pac-10.

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

by burntorangehorn on Jun 7, 2010 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

We'll see what happens to USC...

…then that will determine how bad the Pac 10 wants us and whether or not they’re willing to take Baylor.

I think SC and the Pac 10 are both expecting a shit storm to hit. Thats why Pete Carroll got the hell out of town and now the Pac 10 needs a power house to lead their conference and are going after UT and OU. If the NCAA does decide to make an example out of SC then I think Baylor doesn’t sound like too big of a problem considering the Pac 10 will be left with little besides a punished USC.

by tvr'11 on Jun 7, 2010 2:15 PM CDT reply actions  

Interesting way to look at it!

"I'm young, but I'm old-fashioned." - Will Muschamp

by BMC237 on Jun 7, 2010 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

I had the same thought

If the PAC-10 wants to elevate its brand (ala the SEC) and increase its leverage with the television networks, it needs some title contenders, teams that will actually be a prime-time draw. This upcoming season, the conference might not have even one such school. But if they pick up Texas and Oklahoma (both at peaks of an up-cycle), they survive this part of their conference cycle until USC can rebuild.

by BrooklynHorn on Jun 7, 2010 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

the only appeal the Pac-10 has to me

is that there is a tie to the Las Vegas Bowl, which is something I’ve wanted the Big 12 to add before all this crap comes down

if my team is not playing in a BCS bowl or playing for a national title, I’d just as soon go to somewhere I can gamble while watching my team play, so I like the Las Vegas Bowl.

Otherwise, I’m all for A&M going to the SEC; I have no desire to see us in the Pac-10. The travel costs for non-revenue sports alone make this a bad deal. I don’t want our athletes having to play games two times zones away. I’d rather be the only Texas school in the SEC than one of four in the Pac-16.

I really want to know why anyone is listening to Buddy Jones, and why more people aren’t questioning why our legislature, which is a public governing body, is concerned about affecting the affairs of a private, religious-based university. If anyone threatens the funding of A&M or texas over the issue of Baylor’s conference affiliation, they need to be tarred and feathered and thrown out of office. If the legislature can’t dictate to Baylor how to handle their finances and what classes to teach, then they damn well shouldn’t try to tell public universities where they are going to play sports. EOS.

by Beergut on Jun 7, 2010 2:30 PM CDT reply actions  

How did I know that you'd love the Las Vegas Bowl?

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

by burntorangehorn on Jun 7, 2010 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

I realize I'm in the minority, but I have found LV to be extremely boring

And it amazes me that people see LV as such a destination. I guess it’s partly because of my family, but I’d much rather visit Houston than LV.

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

by burntorangehorn on Jun 7, 2010 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

do you like to gamble?

if you don’t, I’m not surprised you’d find LV boring.

by Beergut on Jun 7, 2010 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

is it not lv rather than LV?

Your tongue can't repel flavor of that magnitude!!

by UT2001 on Jun 7, 2010 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

I do like to gamble

Condoms are expensive anyways.

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

by burntorangehorn on Jun 7, 2010 10:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Shouldn't that be

“since my team is not playing in a BCS bowl or playing for a national title”

by UTLawGrad on Jun 7, 2010 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

travel

I can understand the distance and time zones aspects of travel for games out west. But are there any good numbers relating to cost? For instance, if we were in the SEC, is a trip to Seattle that much more expensive than a trip to Columbia, SC?

by Jason Mayer on Jun 7, 2010 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's almost half the distance

Austin to Seattle is a 2216 mile hike, Columbia is 1139.

by TexasReb on Jun 7, 2010 10:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well let's remember that

we’d save two hours by traveling to Seattle whereas we’d lose one hour traveling to Columbia. And we all know time=money, so there you go. Traveling to Seattle is more profitable.

"I'm young, but I'm old-fashioned." - Will Muschamp

by BMC237 on Jun 7, 2010 11:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Huh?

That comment doesn’t make sense. How fast do you travel where you can go over 1,000 extra miles in two hours? Did we buy a Concorde supersonic jet? We would also lose those two hours on the way back.

by TexasReb on Jun 8, 2010 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think we just found another way

in which Texas is not really the same as the south…

by Pflash on Jun 8, 2010 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

weird

your 2nd and 4th paragraphs are both entirely logical. Proud of you!

by luxar on Jun 7, 2010 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

The 4th in particular was good

But I think the answer is obvious: it’s the legislature for the state of Texas, so…

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

by burntorangehorn on Jun 7, 2010 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Colorado resident here

don’t get the hate for including Baylor over CU, it seems a no brainer to me.

CU’s sports programs are in shambles, Baylor has beaten CU 2 of their last 3 football meetings, Baylor’s basketball is better, the 2 schools are similar in USNAWR academic rankings, and Baylor is good in most other sports, while CU is not. Heck, CU doesn’t even have baseball, and Baylor is in the CWS. Doesn’t Baylor have more Big 12 titles than anyone in the north but NU?

I guess I get going for our TV market up here, but it’s really not the market people seem to think. Colorado people don’t give a crap about CU. There’s waaay more Nebraska fans here.

by thedoctor on Jun 7, 2010 3:16 PM CDT reply actions  

CU is a much better University than Baylor overall, even if their undergraduate rankings are similar.

And if Baylor is in the CWS, someone should tell TCU.

Colorado people don’t give a crap about CU now because they’re not good. They did in the 90’s and early 2000s.

by Texas Wahoo on Jun 7, 2010 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

that’s untrue. it was better when CU was better at football, but it’s all about our pro teams up here. I went to Folsom during the glory years often — empty seats and barely engaged fans were still the order of the day. I don’t know their TV numbers, but I can’t imagine they came near other areas.

And even when CU was good at other sports, no one cared even then. Their basketball arena is a travesty — go look up stats and pictures of it.

by thedoctor on Jun 7, 2010 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Some of us Care

CU Student here. Many of us absolutely care, but I want to join the MWC. I would like CU to get to play Wyoming and CSU in league games. If it goes down with mizzou and NU going to the Big Ten, and the six including Baylor going west, I hope KU, KState, Iowa State, and CU joining the MWC along with Boise State (if they do). Anyway, great blog

by dune1980r on Jun 7, 2010 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

im sure there are good CU fans (I know some), but I question how common they are, especially vs. Baylor. Frankly, I agree — the MWC is a better fit for CU in a lot of ways. sports are an afterthought at CU, and the lower “sports pressure” suits CU perfectly, just like CSU.

by thedoctor on Jun 7, 2010 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

No doubt. I will tell you one thing that turns CU fans off is the fact that we don’t aggressively recruit the top players in the state. I thought Barnett would do that and he kinda did, but not enough. We don’t have the massive amount of top flight players other states do, but just getting the top players in our state would help the program.

by dune1980r on Jun 7, 2010 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Even going 3-8 last year...

…Colorado still drew nearly 14,000 more fans per home game than did Baylor.

And keep in mind that this occurred in a season in which Texas played at Baylor, but Colorado played at Texas. The disparity would have been even wider had the locations of those two games been reversed.

by Hopkins Horn on Jun 7, 2010 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

your open letter was pretty good

by dune1980r on Jun 7, 2010 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, no doubt Waco isn’t a big sports attendance market. CU would bring bigger ticket revenues with the extra travel.

But this isn’t really about attendance, is it? Everyone seems to only speak of TV markets, and who stays in Waco after graduation? Aren’t there lots of Baylor fans in Texas in general? http://www.wacotrib.com/sports/baylor/Baylor-Notebook-BU-supporters-boost-attendance-near-record-mark-for-regional.html Didn’t Baylor draw good TV numbers in the NCAA basketball tourney in Texas?

Again, I’m a CO guy. The only thing I know for sure is the lackadaisical approach to sports/football at CU, and amongst the fan group — TV viewers — everyone wants.

by thedoctor on Jun 7, 2010 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

You'd be surprised at how many stay in Waco

And the ones that do tend to be very wealthy – Baylor alums would, I imagine, be a valuable advertising segment due to high income.

There aren’t really lots compared to TX/A&M/Tech and even OU, but there are a good number. They did draw good numbers, and lots of Wacoans who aren’t alums watch the games.

by LonghornEm on Jun 7, 2010 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

I read (somewhere) that Baylor has 115,000 alumni. That figure seems awfully low, but if it is valid, they truly have absolutely no tv market.

No one watches Baylor sports, literally.

by dimecoverage on Jun 7, 2010 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

The only time I watch Baylor sports is in the 400m and 4X400m in the Olympics

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

by burntorangehorn on Jun 7, 2010 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

that number sounds about right. I’ve heard CU is about 200k, iirc, and google says the big 12 schools range from 150k to 350k (A&M, lol) otherwise.

It’s funny how few people actually hold degrees from these schools.

by thedoctor on Jun 7, 2010 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

There's a lot more fans of CU in Denver

Then there are of Baylor anywhere.

The Ralphie Report - University of Colorado Athletics
The Crimson and Cream Machine - University of Oklahoma Athletics

by Jon Woods on Jun 7, 2010 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly

I don’t know why CU>Baylor is complicated, folks. CU brings in Denver/Colorado Springs and Baylor brings in exactly what that the Pac 10 isn’t already getting?

by A-Tex Devil on Jun 7, 2010 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

One Other Thing

There are a group of Coloradans that grew up when CU gained prominence in football(late 80’s and early 90’s) and they are still here waiting for CU to get back to recruiting hard and playing hard again. CU fans as a whole get a bum rap, but there are some really flaky ones as well. However, we are here and CU needs to work on alot of things. BTW, I would love if CU got forced to form a baseball team, but we could run into the whole deal that we did when the Rockies were formed (altitude).

by dune1980r on Jun 7, 2010 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

You are describing me and people seem to forget what it was like then

I grew up in Boulder and the CU-Nebraska rivalry was excellent and I’m sad to see it’s lost a lot of its luster and do not want to see it go completely. While I welcome the CSU rivalry, it does not compare to late season games against Nebraska with NC implications.

Colorado is a football state no question. It’s Broncos number 1, but for a long time it was CU football #2. CSU was irrelevant until recently. Unfortunately all other sports trail far behind football. Basketball has potential, but will never be a focus. Even though most people in Colorado are not natives, there is certainly enough of a market in Colorado to support CU football. These years of mediocrity have made people forget when CU was nationally respected.

CU has always been well televised nationally. The last three years we’ve had no less than 5 and as many as 6 nationally televised games. CU has had the balls to schedule quality opponents even when they suck. Between 1990 and 2009, CU has played 28 non-conference games against ranked teams. This is at least DOUBLE everyone in the BigXII except Texas(23) CU also has the second highest winning % in those games behind Nebraska.

The point is CU has struggled lately, but it has shown it is capable of contending with the best in the country in football and will provide the TV $ to warrant its inclusion into any conference.

None of this matters as Baylor is a private religious school with very limited research spending and has no business in a conference filled with public secular research universities. Especially when Baylor is just meant to appease the Texas legislature. I wouldn’t mind joining the Pac-10 along with just Utah, but being left out of the Pac-16 for Baylor would be a slap in the face.

by skithebert on Jun 7, 2010 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oddly

from what I’ve read on CU message boards, this seems to be the majority outlook: CU is not so great, the PAC-10 should take Baylor.

Never thought a community of laid-back, progressive hikers would be so self-deprecating.

by BrooklynHorn on Jun 7, 2010 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

it’s not really self-deprecating, just honest. CU is in bad shape.

by thedoctor on Jun 7, 2010 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

well, except the Texas lobby. :)

And Baylor fans packed out the Houston regional for Basketball this year, didn’t they? google yields: http://www.wacotrib.com/sports/baylor/Baylor-Notebook-BU-supporters-boost-attendance-near-record-mark-for-regional.html

There’s more CU grads out there than Baylor grads, that’s for sure, but I am a Colorado resident, and I am skeptical of the claim there’s tons of CU fans anywhere. I mean, even now, there’s zero buzz among sports fans in my office about this. The reporting is all coming from Texas!

by thedoctor on Jun 7, 2010 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

True

it was better in the early 90s when they weren’t so horrendous at football. BU students get free tickets and they still can’t fill it. That policy is handy when Texas is playing at Floyd Casey/a Baylor guy is taking you on a date to a football game and you have friends at Baylor that slightly resemble you. Not that I’ve ever done that.

by LonghornEm on Jun 7, 2010 9:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

"empty seats and barely engaged fans"

Welcome to the PAC-10, you should feel quite at home.

by BrooklynHorn on Jun 7, 2010 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Man...

CU is like the insecure girl who refuses to look anyone in the eye, is afraid to wear a bathing suit at the beach, and assumes every guy who hits on her is just setting her up for a joke.

Get some self-esteem already. I was over at the Ralphie Report the other day and the threads over there read like a transcript from a hypochondriac’s support group, “afraid” to be in the same division with Texas and OU.

Jeeze. You’re better than Baylor. Get over it,

by BrooklynHorn on Jun 7, 2010 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Baylor Vs Colorado --- The bigger issue is the same crap that we face again

Meh… I am indifferent which of these two schools come. Being that Baylor is of Texas, I would choose Baylor. So, yeah I would prefer Baylor over Colorado, but don’t care that much about this to begin with.

I have more of an issue with the same crap we face again. Lets face it if we have two parts to this conference, East and West, I see us dealing with the same reality which is that Texas and Oklahoma will slug it out in the RRR and then will meet either USC or Oregon in the Pac 16 championship

Really! With lane kiffin, USC is going down over the next many years, Oregon State, Washington, Washington State and Cal are overhyped year on year and underperform. Reminds you of Mizzou, Kansas State and Kansas. You are left with Oregon that reminds me of the cornhuskers. Its the same crap all over again. We fight it out with the Sooners in the RRR and that will define the Big 12 champ

by Crimson Fog on Jun 7, 2010 3:18 PM CDT reply actions  

curiosity

if there is only one cross-‘conference’ regular season game per team do we intend to tell the networks that before or after they commit to a dollar figure?

by rumplestiltsglenn on Jun 7, 2010 3:45 PM CDT reply actions  

the answer lies in going to more than 8 conference games

We play 9 in the Pac and some crazy fools like me would like to see that go to 10 or 11

by RobberBaron on Jun 7, 2010 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Assuming a Pac16, I'd like to see 11 conference games, yes.

7 in division, 4 from the other division, one traditional OOC rival.

I know the many, many reasons why this will never happen, but as a fan, that is what I would love to see.

by RobberBaron on Jun 7, 2010 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

that is a little extreme

1 ooc game? It would be hard to produce a national champion that has to go through 11 conference games and a CCG

by shaqui chan on Jun 7, 2010 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd get bored quickly

never getting to see interesting OOC games.

by luxar on Jun 7, 2010 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

good luck with that when superconferences exist

a 4-game playoff would be the most we would ever see.

by luxar on Jun 7, 2010 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

I hope that there would be 5 superconferences

that means 5 autobids and 3 at-larges in an 8-team tourney.
It would allow for regular double dipping by the 2 or 3 better leagues while allowing for an occasional bone to be tossed to future BSUs

by RobberBaron on Jun 7, 2010 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

might be easier if a few conferences have 14 teams, and others 16

The MWC plus BSU plus the leftover B12 schools is where I think a 5th conference would come from. The Big East gets picked apart.

by RobberBaron on Jun 7, 2010 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

If in the end, we end up with a number of superconferences

NCAA might get convinced to go to 13 (or even 14) regular season games

But that is just conjecture right nwo

by ximiankernel on Jun 7, 2010 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

11

Hilarious HH.

"A lot of people look for the easy way to do anything, in swimming there is no easy way." - Eddie Reese

by SwimTexas on Jun 7, 2010 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm Pro-Baylor if the alternative is CU

I never thought Colorado was any kind of fit in the same league with Texas. Baylor is adequate athletically and academically, and it’s religious affiliation gives the hippies in Austin something to crow about – - – good times. I certainly don’t understand some of the vehemently expressed opposition, though. Why hate Baylor so much?

by bfaut86 on Jun 7, 2010 4:04 PM CDT reply actions  

I think you already stated it. Religion inspires much hatred.

by thedoctor on Jun 7, 2010 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

This post is starting to cross the line

Easy on religion, please, coming from an agnostic.

"You've got to think lucky. If you fall into a mudhole, check your back pocket - you might have caught a fish" -- Darrell Royal

by SpiritOfTheFedora on Jun 7, 2010 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

no intention on that. enough said.

by thedoctor on Jun 7, 2010 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Suckitude inspires so much disdain, actually

Around these parts, Georgetown is loved by the state schools, and it’s a religious school. It’s about the fact that Baylor, like Notre Dame and all the undeserved bowls, is getting into conferences it does not deserve.

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

by burntorangehorn on Jun 7, 2010 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Georgetown doesn't count ;-)

Jesuit schools are barely Catholic at all (in fact that’s what Notre Dame students call Boston College – Barely Catholic – when they aren’t calling it Backup College). Georgetown has agnostic priests teaching theology, or so I’ve been told by alums.

This coming from a former Catholic.

by LonghornEm on Jun 7, 2010 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm a recovering Evangelical myself...

…and I really didn’t ever see the marginalization of Baylor as a religion-based thing. I’ve always seen it as another case of people being sick of seeing the short, hairy, squirrelly, unintelligent, uncharismatic guy dating the knockout just because he has family money.

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

by burntorangehorn on Jun 7, 2010 9:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

I would love to see you

go tell a member of a Jesuit order that he is ‘barely Catholic’. As for Notre Dame students, they have room to talk, as a school founded by the Holoy Cross order.

Georgetown has agnostic priests teaching theology, or so I’ve been told by alums.

oxymoron

by Beergut on Jun 7, 2010 10:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

come on, that is an extremely common Catholic joke

about Jesuits.

I am not familiar with the Holoy Cross order, please enlighten me.

Even if a person stops believing in god/jesus/catholicism, whatever, if they’ve taken their vows and been ordained, they are still a priest unless defrocked. Not an oxymoron at all.

I’m leaving the religion discussion there…please do the same.

by LonghornEm on Jun 8, 2010 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

the Holoy Cross order

Holy Cross

it was a typo

by Beergut on Jun 9, 2010 5:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

Jesuits

are the premiere order of Catholic teachers at all levels. Notre Dame hates the fact that there are other Catholic schools in the world and tries to denigrate them at every opportunity.

Northwestern Football - All games decided on the last play or your money back.

by nuftw on Jun 7, 2010 10:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

I didn't say that Jesuits aren't Catholics, etc.

Jesuits are my favorite order of priests and I think they are great intellectuals. They’ve had close shaves with getting in trouble orthodoxy-wise with the Vatican, because many of their members and leaders have nonorthodox views. It has nothing to do with ND – that’s just one of the rivalry taunts, like how Harvard and Yale yell “safety school” at each other at their football games. BC says “Better Christians.” And that is a common joke among Catholics, at least among every Catholic I’ve ever met. I don’t know what your beef with ND is, but I merely used that as an example since I currently go there. Jeez.

by LonghornEm on Jun 8, 2010 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions