Texas Longhorns Football 2010: John Chiles as QB2?
by Peter Bean on Aug 25, 2010 11:03 AM CDT
in Texas Longhorns Football
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PrintThere are many challenging aspects to putting together the annual 128-page Eyes of Texas football annual, chief among them writing the roster analysis before fall camp begins to unfold. With that in mind, I thought this would be a good time to go back over the positional roster and look at what, if anything, has changed. First up, quarterback.
QUARTERBACK
Eyes of Texas: Gilbert's the man, and to the extent Texas he's healthy and his back ups are playing mop up, senior Sherrod Harris gets the nod, allowing Wood and McCoy to redshirt.
Now: Gilbert's still the man, but Sherrod Harris has moved on, electing to transfer from the program. That leaves the two true freshmen competing for back up duties, which creates an interesting (albeit frightening) situation. Obviously, Gilbert has to stay healthy, and you can expect our usage of him as a rusher to reflect that.
But who should be QB2? While Wood is much more physically developed and has the higher long-term upside, at this point McCoy is substantially more comfortable and polished as a passer. All things considered, if Wood remains well behind through the rest of camp, McCoy will be named QB2.
But here's another option to consider: If Gilbert's going to play for the entirety of close games and three-quarters of our blowouts, could it make sense to use John Chiles as the fourth quarter QB? Think through it for a minute. The argument goes something like this:
(1) Assume the staff would have preferred to redshirt both McCoy and Wood had Harris been available.
(2) Assume further that in the nightmare scenario (i.e. Gilbert gets hurt) that Chiles would give Texas a better chance to win than would either McCoy or Wood.
(3) Given all the raving reports about Chiles rejuvenated quickness now that he's back to 205 lbs, he's revived the skill that primarily made him an effective quarterback in the first place. Moreover, he's got the experience that the position demands.
(4) If Gilbert stays healthy, you're just bringing in Chiles to run the fourth quarters of meaningless games, while preserving the redshirts of the freshmen, and opening the possibility of using Chiles in a more dynamic way when he's in there as a receiver with Gilbert (the Q package or whatever).
What's the downside? Well, for starters it might be considered unfair to Chiles. We haven't done him many favors in his development over his first three years on campus, and he might begrudge being thrust into this role on the eve of his senior season, when he's prepped so hard to make it as a receiver.
If not -- if Chiles was open to and excited by the idea -- well... I think the staff at least has to consider it. Now it's worth saying that I haven't heard from anyone that they are, or read anywhere else that the idea should or is being considered, but I'll throw it out there and open the floor for discussion.
The more I think about it, the more it makes sense. It sounds for all the world like Texas would be a shell of a passing offense if McCoy or Wood was forced to take over, and I think there's some real upside to a quick John Chiles being used as the back up and change-of-pace option.
What are your thoughts? (As Horncasting notes, Mack apparently rejected this idea outright, so this is just food for thought.)
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The simplest answer to why not is -
If he’s playing HARD as a receiver for the first 3 quarters, and happens to get injured in those first 3 quarters… he’s not around for the 4th quarter, let alone the next week’s game. So then again you’re looking at no one really backing up GG. It puts even more eggs in one basket, I think, than just giving the nod to one of the freshmen.
Trust me, I’ve thought about it too. It almost makes sense, but I don’t think it really solves anything.
Disagree
You’re still prepping Wood and McCoy at QB3, only you’re hoping it never comes to having to use them. Either way — whether they have to come in because they’re QB2 and Gilbert goes down, or because they’re QB3 and both Gilbert and Chiles go down — the offense is no longer a passing threat.
In other words, there’s no upside to the Wood-McCoy option, but there is to Chiles.
You ain't hurt...
Disagree
In other words, there’s no upside to the Wood-McCoy option, but there is to Chiles.
Think about if Harris had been the backup last year instead of Gilbert, but Gilbert was still being trained as “QB3.” In that situation, would Harris have come into the MNC, or would a true freshman Gilbert have come in having never taken a single snap?
Let’s say Gilbert tears an ACL or something and is out for the year. If Chiles were QB2, I think there’s almost no way that the coaches bump Chiles to QB1; they’d instead burn Wood’s shirt. In that situation, Wood would be starting having never taken a single live snap, akin to my scenario above.
I don't always watch football, but when I do, I prefer Dos Achos. Stay thirsty, my friends.
Disagree
With the idea that the coaches wouldn’t bump Chiles to QB1 if Gilbert went down and he’d been repping at QB2. I may be in the minority, but I have to believe Chiles — warts and all — gives us a better chance to win games than a true freshman.
You ain't hurt...
Bean ... I think your post is completely legit. I thought about this when Sherrod left.
For argument’s sake, let’s just say that GG does go down in the first few games. At that point, IMO, I don’t think there’s any question at all that the coaches should reconsider things & get Chiles some practice reps again at QB – especially if they still are undefeated & have a South title or MNC in their grasp – unless,of course, Chiles is having a monster year at WR. The reality is, however, that we have plenty of other WRs that can step in and replace what he produced last year. The coaches could keep their butts covered w/ Chiles running the zone-read in case neither Wood nor McCoy can handle starting yet. At the very least, Chiles gives them another dimension & approach for the bottom line – wins.
& if that’s the case in a doomsday scenario of losing GG, then it would really be a good idea to give him some reps NOW and let him mop-up 4Qs to save those redshirts. But it really doesn’t matter that much, right? This defense is going to throw 4 or 5 shutouts in the first half of the season anyway, huh?!
Yeah
I guess I’d want to know more about how far along Chiles has come as a receiver, as well as how comfortable I feel about the younger guys coming up behind him. As I said below, I think my idea is an attractive one in theory, but under the circumstances, problematically complicated in practice.
You ain't hurt...
It does make sense... sort of.
It’s difficult for me to judge without having seen much of what Wood/McCoy have to offer. I’d vote against Chiles at QB, unless it’s an absolute last resort, mostly because I feel he’s finally been placed in a position to be successful (at WR).
Chiles never looked good at QB because he couldn’t make the reads and make the decisions to get the ball to his receivers; when pressure came up, and he scrambled, he didnt look good because he was overweight (for his scrambling abilities, i never though he looked fat at 225 so i’m still scratching my head over people acting like he had a gut to get his weight up). All we’d get by moving Chiles to QB was the Wildcat and lose our possible #1 WR on the field.
Better to keep him at WR, take our licks with a freshman at QB.
by Displaced Longhorn on Aug 25, 2010 11:16 AM CDT reply actions
Still using him as a receiver
Again, I’m talking about just using him in the 4th quarter of blowouts basically to hand the ball off. The rest of the time, he’s a receiver.
It’s a move to preserve the freshmen’s redshirts. Maybe that’s not a priority, though.
You ain't hurt...
I’m thinking in terms of Gilbert being injured I’d rather have the true freshman out there than Chiles. Chiles never showed he could be the #2 in that case, and I think that’s even more the situation now.
Personally I’m not wholly enamored with either Freshman, and think we’ll sign a stud QB who’ll ascend higher than either of them before Giblert’s gone (I think he stays 4). But that’s just futuristic optomism.
by Displaced Longhorn on Aug 25, 2010 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
I do like the outside the box thinking, and Chiles’ trick play pass in the 2nd open practice may indicate he’s still got some skill situationally. but I just don’t think hes a better option over the frosh when it takes alot (hopefully) from our receiving corp.
here’s to Gilbert staying 110% healthy all season long
by Displaced Longhorn on Aug 25, 2010 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions
It makes more sense on paper...
…than in reality. It’s a little bit complicated, and cutesy, and it risks disrupting some other things we’re trying to do. In theory, however, it’s a neat little idea.
You ain't hurt...
You just nailed it...
Makes some sense on paper, but, in reality, it’s too much of a “rock the boat” move…
Wish we could have convinced Sherrod to stick around.
I think #2 is a very LARGE assumption.
Quickness was not his issue at QB. Being a QB was.
by BoddickerIsClutch on Aug 25, 2010 11:17 AM CDT reply actions
Future backup/starting QB
Interesting idea. My preference would probably be to redshirt Wood as he seems to have the higher upside but is more raw as a passer right now.
The flip side of this argument is that prepping Wood and McCoy now and giving one of them some playing time this year should put us into a better position as far as a backup QB next year, and a starting QB for 2012 if Gilbert were to leave early.
Of course Mack specifically stated that playing Chiles as a QB was “not even part of the thought process”.
the coaches have already publicly stated that
Chiles at QB is not something they will consider..
Since we're assuming...
If Chiles was a genuinely better option and was open to the idea, it would not be a bad play by the coaching staff. I would rather bring a change of pace in the event of a QB injury than trot out a completely inferior version of the same player. Losing Chiles as a WR in that case wouldn’t be a big deal, as the QB would more than likely be unable to use him effectively.
It has of course been stated by several that our assumptions here more than likely do not exist in the present world, but I do enjoy the logic of saving the RS of both freshmen and just delaying the QB #2 battle until both get a little more acclimated.
For all the recruiting success that we’ve had for years and years, the staff has really managed to get themselves in jams in a variety of positons at times.
On the same page as you
Obviously, the staff has taken this option off the table, but in theory, it’s a pretty intriguing idea.
You ain't hurt...
What situations would put it back on the table?
Historically, there are two similar situations: Tom Matte with Baltimore when Hall of Famer-to-be Johnny Unitas and Gary Cuozzo both went down with season-ending injuries and little used halfback Tom Matte from Ohio State came in to lead the Colts within a whisker of the championship and who did beat the Cowboys easily…with the pass, no less. That was 1966 and I doubt many here have any remembrance of that. The Colts just found the best available athlete to cover their situation, a back up half back who had no experience at QB.
The other example concerns Texas, 1977, and the Randy McEachern saga when Texas’ first two QB’s Mark McBath and Jon Aune go down in the first quarter against an OU team the Horns hadn’t defeated since 1970. With the running of Earl and the kicking of Russell Erxleben (FGs of 64 and 58, punts of 69 and 71) and a strong D led by Outland Trophy winner Brad Shearer, Texas won 13-6. The remaining QB back-ups: three raw freshmen, but the Horns went 10-0 and were ranked #1, only to lose to ND in the Cotton Bowl, 38-10 due to six costly turnovers.
So, worst case of worst case, what if GG and #2 go down? Who is your back-up? John Paul Floyd, a 6-1, 181 pound sophomore walk-on from Lubbock Monterey.
That’s it on the roster…except for John Chiles, who was 11-13 for 2 TDs, 45 carries for 132 yards, in 2008. And it would be a somewhat new offense, so the wise precaution in the worst case scenario, one where Chiles could at least hand off proficiently, would be to secretly get him some reps at just handing off if nothing else.
I know, all horrible scenarios and no Earl to help out…but imho maybe a better defense.
Chiles’ greatest value right now is at WR, but in terms of the team and its continuity for the season, we have to admit we’re skating on thin ice and have been for many years without a veteran back-up. Even though Colt going down was truly unfortunate, it was not so unexpected…it was a risk we knew we were taking…and one we will be taking again this year. Every opponent we play knows this, so I don’t think it is something that can be blithely ignored.
What you seem to be saying is: how far do you go to cover yourself, to insure your team goes as far as it possibly can, even in crippling situations? Where we are lucky this season is that we have a defense that can be as attacking and offensive as any defense Texas has had in the Mack Brown Era. Maybe not as experienced at 2005, but close, very close imho.
Last, there are some players on the team that were HS QBs that perhaps could be pulled in to the position in a extraordinary situation. No one ever wants to say this or explore this dark side risk very much, but defusing the shock now is not an unwise move. At the very least, it certainly balances some of the hype.
Chiles
is a WR. And becoming a damn good one. You mess with him now, you’re messing with his future. Chiles stays at WR
A. Green
Off subject… Does anyone know if he is going to announce Saturday of the half-time game on ESPN?!?!?!!?
by TexasStateHorn on Aug 25, 2010 12:16 PM CDT reply actions
All indications are NO,
but ya never know for sure. He was planning on waiting a while, but it becomes more and more clear that Nebraska is scared and tapping out of the Big 12 to avoid being owned by Texas anymore. That’s not something I would want to be a part of.
Maybe getting out there on the field with Brown Sat night and talking a lil bit might help him decide a little quicker.
Sounds good to me
I frequently salivate at the idea of Green and Brown in the same backfield, and absolutely slobber at Green, Brown, Gray, and Sanders.
Don't like this idea
John’s finally working hard and gives a damn about something for the first time since arriving on campus. Let’s not betray that and send him back to apathy-ville. Besides, I don’t think he’d even be as good as McCoy.
I'd rather
have the center pick up the ball, turn around, and hand it to the running back then allow any more playing time for Chiles at QB.
Give Wood some snaps and redshirt McCoy. Hopefully GG will become the football messiah and instead of waiting for his mandatory 3rd year in college before being drafted, leave for the CFL allowing for four more years of McCoy to Shipley.
I can dream, can’t I?
What do we do if somehow Colt McCoy ends up on an NFL team starting against Vince Young?
A.Green
Thanks D.W.!! I was hearing rumors that he might announce at half-time?!!? Would be cool if he did?!?!!
Practice time
I’d rather Chiles spend his practice time on his receiving routes than on QB drills. You are not doing either freshman a favor by redshirting, if you believe we have better prospects in line, so pick one and give him the QB2 role. (Just for fun, let the other guy run the attack team so if he gets left out, he can transfer to KSU.)
You have to worry about your QB2 in three different roles — as mop up in games where you want to rest QB1, as an emergency sub for situations where QB1 goes down, and as the replacement when QB1 is lost for the year. So I suppose the best answer depends on how likely each of these scenarios seems and the fitness of each player for each challenge.
It may be wrong to base expectations of McCoy on what we know of his brother, but it seems to me Colt had the stuff we’re looking for here.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
Restating what others have said...
I believe he should be left at WR.
Chiles is making huge leaps as a receiver – finally fulfilling his athletic potential. It would be a shame to distract him from that.
McCoy and Wood need practice and quality game minutes. Having John hand off the ball the entire fourth quarter does not help any of our goals. If we learned anything from the national champion, it was that QB2 minutes in game situations are priceless commodities.
I just don’t think that it would be right at this point in his career. Between backing up a struggling Colt, getting stuck in the Q and Wildhorn packages, and getting moved to receiver, he has already been moved around enough. Let the kid have his senior year, especially when we need experience at receiver.
Why do we need two redshirt freshmen QBs?
Colt started as a freshman. Lets burn one of these red shirt puppies and get him off the porch. Can somebody tell me where Sherrod Harris went and whether he is even eligible to play ball?
by Mick Southerland on Aug 25, 2010 2:51 PM CDT reply actions
Colt
redshirted his freshman year behind Vince, started in 2006
by Infield Elephant on Aug 25, 2010 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions
If this was a video game, I'd be for it
It would definitely be fun to be able to switch quickly to an athletic quarterback and do different things. However, I have to think that it would be detrimental to Chiles to ask him to spend practice time as the #2 QB. He’s still athletic enough to have a good chance at a strong year at wide receiver, and he needs every rep he can get with the quarterbacks. If GG goes down, we’re screwed either way, and we might as well throw Wood or McCoy in the fire so that they’re better prepared backups for next season.
by TheElusiveShadow on Aug 25, 2010 2:52 PM CDT reply actions
Id take my chances with a real QB prospect true frosh, than a WR who played some QB in high school.
And I agree, if its serious to Gilbert, we are probably boned either way.
by BoddickerIsClutch on Aug 25, 2010 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Just bring back Vince
He clearly is not enjoying niffleball, and would be an excellent change of pace option and fan favorite when games are locked down enough to pull GG.
by Tackchevy on Aug 25, 2010 3:19 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Lotta interesting food for thought here
I hadn’t considered Chiles as a QB. It sound good, in theory, but so did Obama’s bailout plan.
OU did this in 2006, when Bomar got found out and suspended and Thompson had to move back to QB from his starting WR job. But Thompson had been largely a QB to that point.
Comparisons to 1977 don’t work. QB is a much different beast today than it was 30 years ago. QB has always been a physical and leadership postion — that hasn’t changed — but it’s a much more technical position than it used to be. Practice and study and reps are simply critical, and in that area Chiles is less prepped than either freshman.
PB’s main theme — that Chiles might be a better option for WINNING NOW — is the point I’d dispute. He’d be learning the position on the fly. The freshmen might be green, but they’d be trained QBs who had the advantage of spring and summer work. Redshirting both doesn’t make sense; next year, we’d have THREE freshman QBs. Better to have a sophomore, a RS freshman and a true freshman (David Ash).
Also, who says a true freshman can’t help you win? Yes, the playbook would have to be trimmed, the running game would become more prominent. Maybe we’d play two tight ends, just two WRs, emphasize line surge and double-teaming at the point of attack.
In that case, the special teams and defense would have to step up. Sounds a lot like how we beat OU and Nebraska and Tech last year.
Good thoughts, as always
Clearly not a slam dunk case, and I’m largely convinced by the other arguments throughout this thread. Good stuff.
You ain't hurt...
Following your thoughts ... & whills' history lesson above ...
… we can learn from our hated rivals north of the Red. Troy Aikman was the starter in ‘85 & switzer, reluctantly, scrapped the bone and let him pass the ball. However, Troy broke his ankle in the 4th game and the wishbone went back in place with freshman Jamelle Holieway running it flawlessly for the suckin’ sooners to win the MNC.
GG is a thrower, Chiles is a runner, and, I know, this is a pretty far-fetched parallel. But you gotta atleast admit that there may be some value in utilizing Chiles’ experience as a QB in HS & 2 years of Division I college.
Easy answer.
You put in the true frosh QB, and alternate with both him and Chiles at QB or wide out, using the Wild Horn.
UN-Stoppable.
Was think the same thing.
Or maybe a triple horn option: Goodwin side by side with Monroe. Bring Hales in motion through the back-field and snap the ball. MG or DJ hand the ball to DH but then pull it for an option pitch or run or pass and I don’t know where I am…
Wha...? No Whaley? No Hills?
Can we get a sim of this formation up and running in NCAA 11 real quick?
Let’s take some youtube vids and submit them to Belmont.
I thought about this same thing a couple week ago PB.
The issues are:
1. Neither freshman has separated himself because both are playing at a below-acceptable level for the offense we’re running.
2. Chiles never really demonstrated that he had a grasp of the QB position in this offense.
Consequently, neither option would be very good for us. That is, if Gilbert goes down for extended periods of time, we’re kind of hosed.
I do agree with you that if Gilbert is healthy and playing, there is no need to burn a redshirt just for mop-up duty; let Chiles run the wildhorn or whatever in the 4th quater up by 40.
Other Receiving Votes: Oklahoma
by pleaseplaykindle on Aug 25, 2010 6:55 PM CDT reply actions
I didnt read all the above comments but i gotta say, if Chiles was a decent option for backup QB he woulda came in after Colt went down in the MNC instead of a totally green GG. This idea, in my uneducated opinion, is awful. It sucks the that harris left but we are in the only one QB can lead this team boat again and thats with GG sink or swim.
You Sure About That?
GG was a bonafide blue chip recruit that beat out Sherrod, and who was never in the coach´s redshirt plans. These guys are lesser caliber recruits, both of whom were planned as red shirts. I remember when Jevan Snead played, we could not beat KSU. If these guys are not ready, I would play DJ Monroe in a junk offense before frosh QBs that cannot pass the ball. So I believe if Chiles is better than Wood McCoy – I would put him in and personally could care less how his first 3 years went. And remember, he was supposedly not in shape last year.
Note to Bill Byrne "Because you aren´t Texas and you´ll never be Texas"
" . . . when Jevan Snead played, we could not beat KSU."
That’s accruate — but there’s more to it:
1. Fumbles by Jamaal Charles and Selvin Young in the 3Q turned a 21-21 tie into a 35-21 K-State lead.
2. Wildcats blocked a punt that set up a 23-yard TD drive.
3. Thorpe Award winner Aaron Ross got burned on a long TD pass.
4. K-State returned a punt 52 yards to set up a short TD drive.
5. Snead was at QB as Texas rallied from a 42-21 defict to lose by 3. Snead passed for 190 yards with no interceptions in his only extended playing opportunity of the season.
I agree. That loss cannot be pinned on Snead, in any way.
It’s a team game but I’m sure that anyone on the defense that day would be glad to take responsibility.
You Are Right - I Made a Bad Point
What I should have said is that from the limited time with Snead I had zero confidence that he could lead the Horns to a win. If the new kids are so raw – and I expect they are – I would much prefer Chiles or a junk offense. I just think with this D, this team has a chance to be special, as in 2005 special. I would not give a rat´s tiny arse if the move hurt Chiles chances at the next level – if he could help at QB – I´m for it. Maybe later would hold like a John Chiles appreciation day to square up with him.
Note to Bill Byrne "Because you aren´t Texas and you´ll never be Texas"
You make good pts but i just feel like if GG goes down, God forbid, the season is pretty much over barring a miracle from the fresh that doesnt red shirt. If Chiles QBs than our wr’s become less experienced which I’ll admit isn’t as bad as it may sound but it aint good thats for sure. The more i think about the more i think if GG goes down we are damned if we do and damned if we dont, so to speak.
This all highlights how important a real running game and having the h back/TE to pick up blitzers is really the MOST important thing for our offense this year. I think Mack saw real clearly how much a dominant running game makes up for a lack of QB skills in the MNC. I mean McEl-SUCK completed like 7 passes for bama but the rbs just wore down our line. here’s to hoping Davis can make it happen!
woops, above response @real mccoy
-1 in reply skills
by dukeoforange on Aug 25, 2010 9:36 PM CDT up reply actions
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