Vaccaro should start over Gideon
by BurntOranged on Sep 6, 2010 8:41 PM CDT
Email
Print
I continue to be amazed on what the Texas defensive coaching staff sees in Blake Gideon to warrant a starting Safety job. Chalk up the Rice game as another example on how Gideon has no business in the starting lineup (I'd said this since before the infamous Texas Tech drop).
1. Rice fluke passing play at end of half - Gideon chooses to cold cock the Rice receiver instead of knock the ball down or go for the interception. The ball literally went 1-2 feet over his head to the trailing Rice WR for a TD.
2. Gideon continues to not make any plays on the ball. 0 pass defenses.
3. Gideon also showed twice that he cannot prevent the ball carrier from not getting any additional yards after contact. He just piles on for the tackles.
Vaccaro led the team with 8 tackles, 6 solo, and played a great game from the Bench. Gideon on the other hand had only 6 tackles with 2 solo while playing the entire game.
All comments, FanPosts, and FanShots are the views of the reader-authors who create them.
162 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Since this is your first post, welcome to BON.
You certainly raise a good point, but just because KFV brings the wood does not mean he brings the brains. Don’t worry, you will see A LOT of Kenny this year.
YES!!
I’m with you brother!! They guy makes no plays!! ZERO ZERO!!!
You're insane
Blake Gideon is given almost no credit by fans, but he’s one of the most valuable members of the defense.
If anyone in the starting lineup should give up a spot to Vaccaro, I’d say he’d have to be Christian Scott or, if UT didn’t really care about upgrading in the brains dept., Chykie.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 6, 2010 9:14 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I'm with you
Gideon isn’t flashy but he is consistent. It always surprises me when I see this.
"I want to be remembered as the guy who gave his all whenever he was on the field."
-Walter Payton
by CoachEtch on Sep 6, 2010 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
I've been grudgingly impressed by him
After Tech 08, I was prepared to hate him forever, and spent the whole year using some form of “pulling a Blake Gideon” for someone screwing something up royally or letting bunch of people down. But he has been a really solid playmaker, and he has generally redeemed himself in my eyes.
Never ask a man if he's from Texas. If he is, he'll tell you soon enough. If he's not, don't embarrass him.
You're going
Way overboard saying he’s one of the most valuable members. He’s the least important other than Chykie, the second DT, and possibly (but not for sure) the third LB slot.
Ironically, I thought Blake played really well against Rice. There was a nice series where he had two solo tackles in a row, and I was a little surprised to see all the angst about run support since IMO he did pretty well. This is coming from a guy who’s generally pretty tough on Gideon. I was proud of how hard he worked to tone his body in the off-season and I was proud of how he played in the first game.
If Vaccaro should start anywhere, I think the first choice should be replacing A.J. in the Big Nickel and allowing him to move to his natural spot at wide corner, moving Curtis to short corner.
Where did I say he's one of the most valuable members?
I said he’s been a solid playmaker.
Never ask a man if he's from Texas. If he is, he'll tell you soon enough. If he's not, don't embarrass him.
I'm the one who said he was one of the most valuable
I think the experience and instincts he brings are invaluable, even if there’s a smattering of underwhelming tackling or bad angles on occasion.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 7, 2010 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions
guy doesn't know how to reply correctly
Never ask a man if he's from Texas. If he is, he'll tell you soon enough. If he's not, don't embarrass him.
Uhm
Somehow try to survive. I was continuing the thread of a single train of thought. It’s even more convoluted if I replied to him and my post is set off more to the side. Thanks for your contribution though.
That's me, contributing nothing but formatting corrections.
I am a woman, after all. What else would I be able to do on a sports blog?
Never ask a man if he's from Texas. If he is, he'll tell you soon enough. If he's not, don't embarrass him.
I believe those are your words
Not mine. Nice to see your have such a high opinion of yourself though.
That was sarcasm
Unnecessarily playing the woman card. Also sarcasm and irony, since I frequently contribute other things. All for rhetorical and ironic effect. I do not seriously believe that my vagina restricts me to correcting formatting.
Never ask a man if he's from Texas. If he is, he'll tell you soon enough. If he's not, don't embarrass him.
Good
You shouldn’t. It also doesn’t give you a right to freak out about people “replying” incorrectly.
I never said it did.
And I apologized.
Never ask a man if he's from Texas. If he is, he'll tell you soon enough. If he's not, don't embarrass him.
Also, on the tackle totals
You do realize that much of Vaccaro’s stat line comes from special teams, right? You aren’t comparing tackles made on defense to tackles made on defense with those numbers.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
Wrong
Only 1 tackle of his 8 was on ST.
by BurntOranged on Sep 7, 2010 12:29 AM CDT up reply actions
The first tackle of the game on the opening kickoff IIRC
"You never lose a game if the opponent doesn't score." - Darrell Royal
by BMC237 on Sep 7, 2010 12:55 AM CDT up reply actions
LOL come on now. Gideon is a great player and he should start. He has started since his freshman year. Vaccaro is great dont get me wrong but Gideon has been solid every year. dang cant believe people want him out
While we're at it...
…maybe Colt should’ve been cast aside last year so Gilbert could get the start?
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 6, 2010 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions
What a dumb comment
Nobody said that. If you don’t have an rebuttal to my argument, don’t post such nonsense.
by BurntOranged on Sep 7, 2010 12:15 AM CDT up reply actions
what a dumb post...
…see it doesn’t feel good does it?
by vy til i die on Sep 7, 2010 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions
Welcome to BON
My rebuttal is above. Maybe you shouldn’t post nonsense about how a human missile who isn’t reliable enough to start should take the starting job from a third-year starter and all-conference performer.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 7, 2010 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Post nonsense? That's funny
I offer an opinion, just an opinion and I get “your an idiot” and childish comments like yours.
How do you know Vaccaro isn’t reliable to start anywhere in the secondary? Geezus man, will you get over your Gideon man-crush. I’m just saying that he isn’t the most talented player on the field. Vaccaro is showing he deserves to be a starter. And just because someone is a third-year starter and pre-season all conference doesn’t mean he’s the most talented. Journalists mainly look at players with big stat lines from the prior season as well as player who is an upper classmen. None of the other Big 12 schools have a 3 year starter at FS.
If you can’t debate me with valid points instead of saying stupid things like “McCoy should have been benched for gilbert”, dont’ waste the board’s time with your posts.
You do realize....
that Gideon started 2 years ago for a Secondary that was one of the worst in the nation. I’m just saying the talent Mack and company have brought is starting to show we don’t have the best center fielder on the field. Watch the tape of the Rice game again. You will see that Gideon got bowled over by the RBs, was nowhere near a PBU, and epically failed in his center field responsibilities on that first half last second pass play.
by BurntOranged on Sep 7, 2010 12:17 AM CDT up reply actions
Curtis Brown, Chykie Brown, and Earl Thomas were all part of that secondary
And they weren’t one of the worst; raw statistics were misleading given the offenses we faced that year. Gideon, in fact, was one of the more steady players in 2008. Go look back on the OU game that year. While Earl got the sexy stats with two picks, Gideon had an overall stronger game.
by TheElusiveShadow on Sep 7, 2010 10:04 PM CDT up reply actions
How many INT's
did Gideon have last season?
"A lot of people look for the easy way to do anything, in swimming there is no easy way." - Eddie Reese
Yeah and only 5 Pass Break Ups last season
for a Free Safety! And if you go back to the 6 INTS (which in a 14 game season isn’t as great as you think), none of those were true breaks on the ball. The PBU statistic is what matters for pass coverage as well as the ability to step up and prevent a RB from getting 8 yards past the line of scrimmage.
by BurntOranged on Sep 7, 2010 12:10 AM CDT up reply actions
Gideon plays clean up
Our FS is a centerfield role, and nothing else. Playing Scott there is a mis-allocation of resources, as he is better suited for a nickel or a SS. Also, 6 picks is outstanding in a 14 game season. Name me a longhorn in the past 25 years who have had more? Thats right, there have only been 2. (Vasher-7, Thomas-8).
Also, our FS will not get many PBU, as he is rarely ever thrown to. On that play at the end of the half, he was stride for stride with his guy (the one who ultimately got the TD). Once the ball was in flight, Gideon moved over to help cover the intended receiver. While running full speed, Gideon was about 2 strides from the receiver as the ball was tipped. It would be physically IMPOSSIBLE for him to twist his body in midair and make a play on it, as he was running full speed. It was a fluke play. Those happen, and the blame cannot be fairly placed upon him.
Stumpy: It's called the '80s. Ford was president, Nixon was in the White House, and FDR was running this country into the ground. I was bummin' in a hole-in-the-wall town in what is now called "Utah".
Watch the play again
Blake was covering over the top as a safety help for whoever that corner was (can’t remember actually). When Keenan tips the ball up, Gideon tries to lay out the player instead of making a play for the ball that went OVER his head. No twisting of the body was needed.
And as for the centerfield role, that is what every FS’s role is. I’m saying we have talent that could do it better. Saying he doesn’t have PBUs because he is rarely thrown to is not an argument. If he was never thrown to, he would never have the 6 INTs you claim that make him a good FS.
by BurntOranged on Sep 7, 2010 12:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Rarely, not never
Talent does not equal playing time. You HAVE to have it between the ears. Experience is huge, especially when Gideon uses that experience to QB the secondary. Gideon isnt a world-beater, but he is acceptable, and in my opinion the best option at FS this juncture. Apparently, William Muschamp agrees with me as well.
Stumpy: It's called the '80s. Ford was president, Nixon was in the White House, and FDR was running this country into the ground. I was bummin' in a hole-in-the-wall town in what is now called "Utah".
Look
you have some validity to the argument that Gideon is not the greatest safety in the world, and there is some eveidnece out there to use. But you lose all credibility when you say that 6 INT’s is not that good. 6 INTs is awesome. It would have led our team in like 10 of the 12 years of Mack Brown’s tenure here (too lazy to look it up).
Completely agree with Kriess above. Which by the way Kriess, is happening far too often. Starting to feel like the only things I comment on here any more is how I agree with you. You are going to have to stop posting such rational thoughts.
"A lot of people look for the easy way to do anything, in swimming there is no easy way." - Eddie Reese
I'll do my best
:-)
Stumpy: It's called the '80s. Ford was president, Nixon was in the White House, and FDR was running this country into the ground. I was bummin' in a hole-in-the-wall town in what is now called "Utah".
Hmmmm ... Do you even know what Vaccarro's forte is?
When Keenan tips the ball up, Gideon tries to lay out the player instead of making a play for the ball …
Yeah, Vaccarro’s 1st inclination would have never been to try to lay out a player.
by robthecob on Sep 7, 2010 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
OK let's use your logic
You say there is talent on the sidelines that can play center field better than Gideon. Please tell me how so. Vacarro had a great game playing close to the line of scrimmage. I certainly didn’t see him doing anything in space making plays against the pass that wowed me. He was best when he was making plays near the line of scrimmage. So, again, please feel free to show us how he would be better used playing FS in this defense.
"I want to be remembered as the guy who gave his all whenever he was on the field."
-Walter Payton
Kind of flawed logic
Since Vaccaro was near the LOS basically the entire game AND Rice ran the ball for most of the game. So there’s not empirical proof either way…
My point exactly
The OP is trying to place him in a position in which he has not proven himself to be successful. Sure, Vacarro is nothing short of a stud against a run. It would be hard to make an argument against that. However, some want Vacarro to replace Gideon when he has yet to prove himself a successful cover man and Gideon did so last year.
"I want to be remembered as the guy who gave his all whenever he was on the field."
-Walter Payton
Mkay
I see your point. I think OP is more concerned with getting Vaccaro’s talents on the field. Think of it from his perspective, in which Gideon hasn’t really proven his coverage abilities at all.
But yes, it’s hard to judge KV’s coverage abilities right now.
Seriously?
Let’s look at Gideon’s stats over the past 2 years.
As a FRESHMAN he had 64 tackles (41 solo) which made him 3rd on the team. He also had 7 PBU.
As a SOPHOMORE he had 62 tackles (35 solo), 2 TFL 6 INT’s, and 5 PBU’s.
You really want to say he wasn’t good in coverage?
He was tied for 8th for most interceptions in the nation last season.
"I want to be remembered as the guy who gave his all whenever he was on the field."
-Walter Payton
It's just everyone else making him look good.
He’s too white to play safety.
by notsofst on Sep 7, 2010 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Win
Never ask a man if he's from Texas. If he is, he'll tell you soon enough. If he's not, don't embarrass him.
Comments like this should really have no place on this site
along with the people who support (+1, win, etc…) such non sense.
Vince Young = Greatness
Jeez, it's a joke
that’s why people are +1-ing it
Never ask a man if he's from Texas. If he is, he'll tell you soon enough. If he's not, don't embarrass him.
Obviously, it was stated as a joke
but read all the comments, not everyone around here thinks the race issue is such a joke. I don’t post very often, but I do read nearly every column and post on BON. When race comes up it illicits the most responses and the most heated debates. Check the tally of comments on this particular post for example. I’m in no way insinuating that anyone shouldn’t be allowed to say what they want on BOn because I’m just an average member. However, I am say that BON is by far the most respected and high level sports blog that I have encountered and I believe the site and its posters are above race card pulling and name calling.
Vince Young = Greatness
You are pretty much the only one
who is getting stuffy about it. No one here is expressing racist opinions or making racist comments. Posters here do comment on race and how it plays a role in the obvious scheme of things. You are acting as if there is an all out racial assault on any and all ethnicity’s and that is not the case. Acknowledging that there is racial bias in the sports world is not racist, its realistic.
"I want to be remembered as the guy who gave his all whenever he was on the field."
-Walter Payton
Hows the view
from the IVORY tower?
"I want to be remembered as the guy who gave his all whenever he was on the field."
-Walter Payton
CoachEtch
Please tell me you are joking and/or misread my post. I said
Think of it from his perspective, in which Gideon hasn’t really proven his coverage abilities at all.I don’t know how that isn’t patently obvious; it was a three-sentence post by me.
My direction of the post was wrong
but the content is still correct. I apologize for not directing it correctly. Real classy on your part not taking the shot, though, in a heated debate.
"I want to be remembered as the guy who gave his all whenever he was on the field."
-Walter Payton
You're right
I apologize for that. But starting off that sentence with “seriously?” earlier is what got me.
No worries
OU Still sucks
"I want to be remembered as the guy who gave his all whenever he was on the field."
-Walter Payton
Strong safety, kiddo
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 7, 2010 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Follow-up comment
Does the fact that BurntOranged thinks Gideon plays FS indicate that he hasn’t watched the Texas Longhorns play much?
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 7, 2010 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions
No
Because his true position is free safety and that’s basically what he plays in the UT defense: center field. Arguing over the coach’s semantics of the position isn’t really fair. He’s a free safety through and through, just like Scott is a SS through and through. The only reason he was a “strong safety” last year is we had the best FS in the country in Earl Thomas. Who was actually more of a hybrid CB/S. See how useless positions are? :D
Earl played a lot of CF, from what I remember
Which is why he was so coveted at the position. I agree that Scott’s more of a SS, and I definitely believe that about Vaccaro. Gideon’s the “least-SS” of the three of them, but also the best defensive player of them.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 7, 2010 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't really remember ET
Playing center at all, but I’d be interesting to hear others’ opinions on that. Either they were both deep or ET was manning up.
Just don’t agree on Gideon being the best defensive player of the three, but that’s alright. It’s fine to disagree with stuff like that. Some of the lambasting of OP is pretty ridiculous though. It’s a sound opinion.
Thanks
I can take the lambasting. I’m just offering an opinion based on what I’ve observed and some people act like its blasphemy. Since we now have more talent on the defensive side than 2 years ago, I think we have players that are better than Gideon. I’m not saying he’s a bad player, but there are players like Vaccaro that require a shakeup.
Vaccaro may have more talent, but he's not a better player by any stretch, IMO
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 7, 2010 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions
it's apparently muschamp and akina's opinion that gideon is better
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 8, 2010 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions
Or at least that he's more important for some reason
But we’ve seen the coaches put in less-good players before. Gideon’s also older and more experienced than KV. Coaches love the experience thing.
you've seen Muschamp not...
..put in the best players? I would like to see some evidence of that.
by vy til i die on Sep 8, 2010 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Well...
In my opinion Gideon, but that’s kind of the point of the debate in the first place. Mainly I’m referring to Akina and his “bled for the program” strategy.
You can’t just take one part of his sentence and equate that to what I’m saying just for the sake of winning an online argument.
obviously i can..
…b/c I just did..booyah! I WIN!
by vy til i die on Sep 8, 2010 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions
I can read a Depth Chart
and the fact Muschamp uses “Buck”, “Left Safety” , “Right Safety” doesn’t mean that Gideon isn’t playing mainly the FS position, E.Jones and Jeffcoat aren’t rushing the end, etc.
Seriously, are you watching games? Gideon plays center field 80%+ of the time unless he rolls up while Scott rolls back.
Are you familiar with weakside/strongside?
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 7, 2010 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions
They have very different skill sets...
If we are talking about having a safety playing a centerfield role, I’ll take Gideon anytime. His stats are not inflated because he often picks up a WR who escaped coverage. Quarterbacks avoid throwing his way because anyone he is covering is being double teamed. He does a great job of keeping things in front of him when he drops back into a Cover 1 or Cover 2. Out of all our defenders, Gideon takes the best angles in pursuit. If you don’t believe me, watch his interception against Nebraska.
It is true that Gideon’s lack of acceleration makes his man coverage skills a weakness that Vaccaro does not have. I love Vaccaro’s play and I welcome his addition to the starting lineup. However, putting Vaccaro in Gideon’s position would only result in giving up big plays. Have faith in Muschamp, he is wise far beyond his years.
by InDKR'sShadow on Sep 6, 2010 11:14 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
your an idiot
gideon is one of the most consistent players on the defense and texas’ secondary would be lost without him. vaccaro played the run every play, thats why he had so many tackles. we are lucky they didnt exploit that and throw it behind him. hes a good player, but he is undisciplined and hot headed. gideon is the leader of the secondary and is irreplaceable.
Hotty Toddy and Hook'em Horns.
What a childish and ignorant post
Vaccaro is currently the backup SS and nickelback and doesn’t play Gideon’s position. I’m saying he should move over as he’s more talented. That’s funny you call Vaccaro undisciplined and a hot head.
by BurntOranged on Sep 7, 2010 12:29 AM CDT up reply actions
You must be joking
Can we please stop with all this “Texas secondary would be lost without him” garbage? It’s idiotic, has no basis, and blatantly racist. Do you actually KNOW any of the other members of the secondary? Or are they just stupid because they aren’t white? I’m pretty sure future first round picks A.J. Williams and Curtis Brown are smart enough to gulp line themselves without help from daddy. GMAB.
do you not know how to reply to the correct post?
because every reply you’ve made has been completely incongruous with the above post.
I’m pretty sure most people on here know the Texas players based on ability. If you think that’s blatantly racist you must have lived a sheltered life. And before you play the race card, don’t forget the favorite players list of most Horn fans would include a black QB named Vince.
Never ask a man if he's from Texas. If he is, he'll tell you soon enough. If he's not, don't embarrass him.
by LonghornEm on Sep 7, 2010 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I do think there's been a fair bit of racism against white "speed position" players
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 7, 2010 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Thats very obvious..
you defend Gideon like you’re his personal secret service agent. I don’t totally agree with the posters’ opinion, but it’s certainly not crazy to think that KV can be a better safety. To think that someone is criticizing Gideon based upon his race is ridiculous and completely skews the argument. Last time I checked Jordan Shipley played a “speed position”…….I don’t recall much criticism of him.
Vince Young = Greatness
It is not that they criticize him based off race
It is that there is an element of the general public that use sport stacking just like coaches used to do long ago when they didn’t put black players at QB because they didn’t think they were smart enough to play the position and instead placed them at RB. Look at Jason Sehorn and John Lynch. Were they considered anomaly’s for players at their positions? Was John Lynch compared more to another white safety or Ronnie Lott? Will Toby Gerhart be compared more to John Riggins or Terelle Davis? Will Jordan Shipley be called the next Wes Welker or the next TJ Houshmanzadah? These things happen in sports.
"I want to be remembered as the guy who gave his all whenever he was on the field."
-Walter Payton
Exactly
It’s not that I think the criticism is motivated by bigoted sentiments. It’s just because the black QB or white WR/DB defies the mental construct many people have of what a top player at those positions should look like.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 7, 2010 8:27 PM CDT up reply actions
That's fine
I’m talking about the “coach on the field” thing, which can’t be defended as only a white player’s prerogative.
That's true
For the record, I’ve called Rolando McClain a “coach on the field” type of player more than a few times.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 7, 2010 8:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Ironically
I’ve had this discussion with a friend many times. We always joke about the “coach on the field” deal, and then it ends/becomes boring once one of us brings up McClain ;) Great player. Great leader.
A lot of people said he wasn't actually fast
And that includes right here on BON.
I defend Gideon because the echo chamber of people criticizing him are extremely transparent. It’s obvious that they’d have a far lesser problem with his play in 2009 and 2010 if it hadn’t been for (a) his two-star rating coming out of HS and (b) his dropped INT in the game in which lots of other Longhorns besides him had failures at least as big as his.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 7, 2010 8:25 PM CDT up reply actions
But see
When I’m critical of Gideon, it has nothing to do with either. I don’t like his tackling ability or on-the-field instincts when it comes to being around the play. I don’t think his coverage abilities are stellar—he’s given up many big plays in his career.
But, like I said, he played much better against Rice so I’m obviously willing to give him a chance.
1) Please grow up, you are acting like a five-year-old. You are attacking somebody for not replying to a post correctly. I never thought I would see the day. It’s unreal.
2) As boh said, if you think that people aren’t biased against white players that play positions requiring athleticism or think white players are almost ALWAYS the ones called “coaches on the field,” “scrappy,” or “high IQ” you either A) never watch any form of sports that has those separate races B) completely block out every time you hear it or C) just don’t pay any attention at all to either the commentary or the fan reactions. Sorry to be your wake-up call, but YOU are the pinnacle of living a sheltered life.
Okay look
You’re engaging in personal attacks. I am not. I point out people’s formatting errors/spelling/whatever only when the person is being extremely rude, or argumentative, or coming out of left field. Reading the thread, you seemed to be acting rude and argumentative over a difference in opinion over which player should play a position, which to me seemed unnecessary. Your subsequent comments to me have confirmed this opinion.
I understood you to be saying that the reason people on the thread preferred Gideon over Vaccaro was due to racism. If that’s not what you meant, then I apologize for the misunderstanding. I never said racism doesn’t exist in sports or that I think it isn’t a problem, etc. I simply meant that there’s no reason to assume people prefer Gideon for racist reasons, and that people thinking (for skill reasons) white Gideon should play over black Vaccaro is not a racist problem, especially when there are real and serious racism issues out there. Not that I would know about any of them from my sheltered life working with indigent people in poor areas or anything. Sorry I made an assumption, but don’t make assumptions about me either.
For what it’s worth, I believe my first contribution to the thread was a statement that I’ve revised my earlier bad opinion of Gideon. Nothing about Vaccaro, nothing excessively partisan.
Never ask a man if he's from Texas. If he is, he'll tell you soon enough. If he's not, don't embarrass him.
Also
Sorry for being a bitch about the formatting. I was in a particularly foul mood today, having just found out I’m having double foot surgery during football season.
Never ask a man if he's from Texas. If he is, he'll tell you soon enough. If he's not, don't embarrass him.
We could have a
Michael Scott Double Foot Surgery Fun Run Race for the Cure Pro Am?
"I want to be remembered as the guy who gave his all whenever he was on the field."
-Walter Payton
cool
let me just make sure I am current on my rabies shots
Never ask a man if he's from Texas. If he is, he'll tell you soon enough. If he's not, don't embarrass him.
It truly is
the silent killer
"I want to be remembered as the guy who gave his all whenever he was on the field."
-Walter Payton
See, this is where we diverge (Em)
I believe that I was engaging less in personal attacks, other than when I took issue with things like OP being treated like garbage or other people’s opinions. If you can point out an instance in which I attacked somebody without being attacked first (for instance when you said I lived a sheltered life) or when I was defending somebody else’s viewpoint, I will admit I was in the wrong.
Thank you for the apology about the formatting.
And to the part about racism
It doesn’t necessarily mean people are consciously saying, “Oh Gideon’s white, I don’t like him as a safety” or “Gideon’s white, he’s a good leader.”
It’s the fact that, for example people tend to view him unconsciously as a better natural leader because of the fact that he’s white. I’m not blaming those who do, but when it’s brought to their attention they shouldn’t react so vehemently. I suppose it’s the natural reaction, though. Nobody, including myself, likes to be identified as seeing race.
Please, though, watch football and basketball games with an ear for the commentators with respect to white players. So and so is always a coach on the field, X is scrappy. Yes there are examples against it, but primarily it works pretty often, and it makes me sick.
I know and I do
As a Bengals fan I am now hearing the frequent Shipley = Wes Welker comparison even though they have nothing in common as far as WR play goes other than whiteness. That’s just one example.
Never ask a man if he's from Texas. If he is, he'll tell you soon enough. If he's not, don't embarrass him.
EXACTLY
That is exactly what I’m talking about. Perfect example.
Welker is a slot player who moves the chains with lots of catches over the middle.
Ship is a true X, Z, or slot who can make plays all over the field and stretch the defense deep. Plus he’s much less quick and has better pure speed.
by the same token, take QBs
Commentary about black QBs is usually limited to their atheticism or toughness. Comments about white QBs are about the great read, the great decision, etc. It’s changing, sure, but that’s prevalent.
I know this conversation is distasteful to some, as one or more in here have specifically said, but I think it’s an important conversation to have. Mental constructs are slowly changing, at some positions more than others, but ignoring the topic doesn’t help anything, IMO.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 8, 2010 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions
I didn't mean that as an attack
Rereading the thread, I had a couple of your posts confused with the general tone of the thread. Sorry.
Never ask a man if he's from Texas. If he is, he'll tell you soon enough. If he's not, don't embarrass him.
NP
The threat got heated really quickly with the OP’s opinion, which is always extremely polarizing, how people trashed him, and my throwing the race card in the ring.
I wasn’t actually wanting that to be the focus of the discussion at all; I’m just tired of hearing about how A.J. would be stealing popcorn from some little kid in the stands or Christian would be doing the Samba in the endzone if Gideon weren’t there with his unsurpassed liner-upper abilities.
Understandable
We’re cool.
Never ask a man if he's from Texas. If he is, he'll tell you soon enough. If he's not, don't embarrass him.
What's up with these name callings?
I’m a Gideon fan, and believe he is the general and manager of our defense, something Vaccaro can never do. Vaccaro is great against the run, and good against the pass. He is something between a LB and SS, he is not a FS or a CB. He can’t even play Gideon’s position, and Gideon is doing a good job.
But why call each other “idiots” “ignorants?” People make arguments that we don’t agree with, or even find childish. But no one is an “idiot,” etc. for saying player “x” should play instead of player “y”. He may be wrong though!
In Mack Brown We Trust!
in my opinion...
if you think Gideon isn’t the best player than get your ass out there and do it better…. I trust in Gideon, the dude flat out plays, and let’s remember that nobody is perfect. But he did get that interception at the beginning of the National Championship game on the fake punt on the first 4th down…… Gideon is a straight up baller, and I would bet my right arm that Muschamp knows more about what he is doing than any of us do. That’s why he gets $900,000 a year plus incentives…..
Actually it was on a 4th down.
Probably would have been better off batting it down on that play.
Wow
Just because people think one player is better than another, they are supposed to go and walk on to UT to play? Are you kidding? So every time people argue about which player is better in the sport, they have to go out and play better than that guy to prove their point?
Ex: “LeBron’s better than Kobe!” “Oh yeah! If Kobe’s so terrible, let’s see you go play in the NBA and score almost 30 points a game and win X number of championships!”
sigh
Jordan was better than both of them.
" Answers --Become Resources."
Without Questions, There are limited Resources...
by KWashburn on Sep 7, 2010 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Im confused?
I like gideon. Just pointing out that particular play might now have been the best example of how he is a good player.
He refuses to reply to the correct post for some reason.
Its a running theme of this god awful thread.
by BoddickerIsClutch on Sep 9, 2010 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
After TTech in '08, you'd be hard-pressed to get Gideon to ever plan to purposely drop an INT again.
He did say 4th down … but, I agree, a bat down debatably would have been in order there even though the 17 yard loss was quickly recovered by the offense. In that situation, it’d be hard not to put your mitts all over that one. And, just like a big football defensive hit (or a vicious dunk vs. an easy layup in BBall), the INT defintiely pumped up the team & the fans more than a batdown would have. I’ll take it every time.
When anyone (BOd) questions starting Gideon, you’re actually questioning Coach Muschamp’s defensive intelligence. He has day-to-day experience with these kids in practice and he has a few more skins on the wall than do we. I think I’ll trust his judgment.
Or can't you make the argument
that Muschamp is doing best with what is available? Gideon started his freshman year which was one of the worst pass defense Longhorn squads in its history.
I’m just saying that Vaccaro is showing that he deserves to be on the field as a starter. Perhaps we need to reshuffle the entire secondary, but Gideon’s lack of speed to generate PBUs and the fact he gets bowled over head-on by a RB shows that maybe he shouldn’t be the starter.
Your original post undeniably focused more on bashing Gideon ...
… than singing Vaccaro’s praises. After a good solid win, plain negativity is unnecessary, especially when it’s yet another person with an agenda to bash Gideon, who a lot of us appreciate for his solid play over 2 full seasons as a starter. If you’re gonna rip the kid, expect to get ripped right back.
Or can’t you make the argument that Muschamp is doing best with what is available?
Evidently, Gideon is the best of what is available (which includes Vaccaro). I guarantee Mack & Muschamp’s #1 priority is winning – & Gideon, in their view, gives ’em the best chance at that.
Gideon started his freshman year which was one of the worst pass defense Longhorn squads in its history.
I guess, by that blanket argument, you’re saying that Earl Thomas was poor also? Any bad pass D those young Horns displayed may have had something to do with (A) 2 freshman starting safeties and Ryan Palmer & Deon Beasley as the starting corners (B) a prolific Big 12 offensive explosion that included the all-time best passing offenses & almost all of the greatest QBs, WRs, & TEs in TTech, KU, Mizzou, OSU, & ou history, (C ) 60 ppg ou, or (D) UT’s #1 rushing D which precipitated the passing frenzy against them. Gideon being a FR was a very miniscule part of that – not the whole.
… and the fact he gets bowled over head-on by a RB …Jerry Gray was consistently bowled over by RBs and was a 2-time AA and, arguably, the greatest UT DB ever. Coverage skills, heady play, and tackling ability are all much more important to a DB than ‘blowing up’ an RB. 2 of those 3 are exactly what keeps Vaccaro from starting over Gideon or Scott right now.
Just like ET, Gideon is a ‘coach on the field’ because he’s always in the right place – & it has nothing to do with his skin color. Let’s just atleast be happy to have such solid starters at safety & corner and still be able to bring in such amazing reserves as Vaccaro & Aaron Williams. Simply incredible depth.
I don't believe
Everybody thinks a 34-17 win over Rice is a “good, solid win.” That is your opinion. There’s nothing wrong with being negative even in a blowout. It’s not about the current game, it’s how that game portends the future (i.e. not very well to many fans).
If we drop 80 on Stephen F. Austin and give up 400 passing yards, is it not okay to be worried about playing TTU in a month? Or should be just be happy because we won by a lot?
There are different way to look at different situations. Some people are hopeless optimists and will always look at the positives (you), which is fine. Some people are cynical and nitpick the negatives (BurntOranged), which is alright too. As long as you don’t get ridiculously sunshine-pumperish (anybody at OB) or unbelievably negative (ransomstoddard at BC), I think both sides are valid.
I think Gideon should start at free safety
along with Bible at tackle to get the Gideon Bible defense going!!! Why all the hate after a win?
by bevoluble on Sep 7, 2010 3:58 AM CDT reply actions 6 recs
Best comment on this thread.
"A lot of people look for the easy way to do anything, in swimming there is no easy way." - Eddie Reese
Gideon
If Muschamp likes him then I do as well. Vacarro is going to get a ton of playing time so it will work out just fine.
Gideon can't tackle
Until Gideon can sure up his tackling, he’ll always be one of the weak links. And no, jumping on top of a pile after the player is already down is not considered tackling. Vacarro will be starting either in place of Chykie or Gideon before the season is over. Hopefully it won’t take a loss for them to finally decide to dump Chykie or Gideon to the 2nd team.
i bet you 100 e-dollars Gideon's not replaced..nt whills
by vy til i die on Sep 7, 2010 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions
We'll see..Chykie will probably be replaced first though....
Gideon has peaked and is as good as he can be. You will see the more athletic players such as Vacarro catch up to Gideon and pass him by once they prove they can play consistently without making any mental mistakes. If Vacarro keeps playing like he did against Rice, which I think he will, someone has got to go and most likely that will be Chykie because he makes the most mental mistakes.
I'M NOT SURE ABOUT GIDEON...
I DIDN’T REALLY NOTICE HIM AT ALL DURING THE GAME. I DIDN’T SEE HIM MAKE ANY GREAT PLAYS, BUT I ALSO DIDN’T SEE HIM MAKE ANY HUGE SCREW-UPS.
AS FOR VACARRO, HE DID HAVE A GREAT GAME I THOUGHT, BUT THE PROBLEM I HAVE IS HE WAS RUNNING OUT OF THE NICKEL ALOT OF THE TIME, AT THE EXPENSE OF CURTIS BROWN, OR EVEN AARON WILLIAMS. MY VOTE IS TO GET CHYKIE AS FAR AWAY FROM THE FIELD AS POSSIBLE, AND START CURTIS, AARON, AND VACARRO IN THE NICKEL.
Why do I always think of Peter Griffin not being able to control the sound of his voice when this happens?
" Answers --Become Resources."
Without Questions, There are limited Resources...
Blue Streak!
One of the lasting images from Saturday is Vacarro’s helmet that was totally streaked with blue. Shows he’s banging with the big boys!
Hook Em!
I'm not the biggest Gideon fan....
but he is definitely a good player. I believe he excels against the pass and his weakness is in run support. KV is awesome at defending the run but we have yet to see what he does against the pass. If we are playing a power running team I would like to see more of KV. When we play a team like Tech, I would like to see more Gideon. The jury is still out on C. Scott, he didnt show much in the rice game besides the big hit.
Vince Young = Greatness
Gideon is okay.
I’ve been frustrated with him on many many occasions (especially with run support as I think he just isn’t good there). He’s pretty good in passing situations and well, that’s about it. Do I think Kenny V. can take his place? Yes. But KV has work to do in passing situations. Is Gideon an excellent player? No. If he a safe choice for the defense? He’s a low risk-decent reward type of player.
We have players that can be much better than him. As of right now (in Boom we Trust), no one is doing better. If someone does step up, I expect Boom to either play Gideon less instead of replacing him as the starter.
"Football's so important in Texas. On the West Coast, it's a social. On the East Coast, it's a culture. Here, it's a religion."
-- Major Applewhite
You put it better than almost anybody else on this thread
By not polarizing yourself too much one way or the other and not insulting everybody who posted above you (I am guilty of this as well). Good breakdown of the players without going ridiculously overboard and calling Gideon an all-conference player or Vaccaro a superstar. Solid contribution as always.
How is it ridiculously overboard to call Gideon all-conference?
He was, in fact, all-conference. Is that not true?
http://www.big12sports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=10410&ATCLID=204969179
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 7, 2010 8:30 PM CDT up reply actions
And...
You posted a link for a preseason media poll. Which amounts to nothing. If he makes it in the postseason, I’ll post a thread eating my own words. Deal?
He was honorable-mention all-conference following 2009, as a true sophomore
I’m trying to think of others who have done that at Texas. Anyone coming to mind?
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 7, 2010 8:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Not many start back there as true freshmen.
Let’s not forget that Earl Thomas was the stud last year and was also the better player as a freshmen.
I don’t think Gideon has an NFL future from what I’ve seen. He’s a safe choice back at safety. Sure he plays smart in pass coverage but you cannot tell me he plays smart in covering the run. He misses A LOT. I think our defense can be elite with Gideon BUT, I think we can be better if Vaccaro and Scott have good coverage skills.
"Football's so important in Texas. On the West Coast, it's a social. On the East Coast, it's a culture. Here, it's a religion."
-- Major Applewhite
Earl also was redshirted a year too, I think
So you have to compare Earl last year to Gideon this year, to make it a fair comparison.
You mean
Anybody at ANY position? Or just safety? Sunkist makes a good point that not many people have had the opportunity to do so, merely because they don’t play till Jr. year or are very inexperienced their sophomore years. Gideon was fortunate enough to come in with almost nobody else on the depth chart and basically no competition. And I don’t think honorably mention is overly impressive; it’s a pretty long list, no?
Fortunate AND good enough
Note that Christian Scott was also there for competition, as were several other pretty decent prospects.
Honorable mention, meh, it can be long. But count the free safeties. And then count the true juniors who are first-team all-conference heading into 2010, which is a pretty good indication of what coaches think of the holdovers from last year. Gideon’s at the top for a reason.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 9, 2010 7:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Is he not first-team in that link?
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 7, 2010 8:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Sunkist, you summarized my points exactly...
in saying that Gideon is a low-risk decent reward type of player. All I was saying by starting this thread is that there is better talent in Vaccaro from what I’ve seen at Spring Pads and the 1st game. Its just my opinion. I’m spoiled by Texas and expect us to have the best talent in the nation on the field. Gideon proves he’s just out there to clean up when I want a pass defender / guy who doesn’t get bowled over on the run.
Vaccaro is still an unproven commodity at this point.
Yes we are all very excited about him but for the most part, he’s done his magic on special teams. He’s finally getting playing time and do not think for second that he’ll take Gideon’s place if he can prove worth on playing the run and the pass.
He needs time to prove it. Some are jumping the gun early right now and that’s what people are getting frustrated about. Gideon’s done a decent job.
I’m excited about Vaccaro as anyone else. He’s a thrill to watch (Gideon is not). Hopefully he can be as good as the expectations we are laying upon him.
Same with Christian Scott who did not have as exciting of a Game 1 but was decent.
"Football's so important in Texas. On the West Coast, it's a social. On the East Coast, it's a culture. Here, it's a religion."
-- Major Applewhite
Perhaps Scott should roll to Gideon's spot
and Vaccaro to Scott’s. Just an opinion. I agree we have to wait this one out. My original post was to point out that we just don’t have the best players (IN MY OPINION) on the field.
Just be patient.
I am with you that Scott and Vaccaro both look to be more more talented that Gideon. I think most people will admit that too (some have above). They need to prove themselves on the field first. One game (especially against Rice) can’t prove anything although Gideon didn’t tackle well against rice either.
By the end of the season, I hope these two are the starters. But I am also okay with Gideon starting and Vaccaro/Scott coming in and taking up most of the PT.
"Football's so important in Texas. On the West Coast, it's a social. On the East Coast, it's a culture. Here, it's a religion."
-- Major Applewhite
I loved the physical play of Scott and Vaccaro
First big hit was delivered by Scott, (Close to a penalty.) IIRC Vacarro played real close to to LOS where his tackling strenghs were evident.
What we need to see is how they play in coverage. Are they consistently in the right spots. Do they make the correct reads. It may have been the heavy alchohol but I don’t recall any INTs, PBUs, by any of the safeties.
Wha...? No Whaley? No Hills?
In the Rice game?
They didn’t have any attempts. Chykie and A.J. both dropped pick 6s. Interestingly, you could make a pretty good case for putting the corners on an island and playing two safeties near the LOS (by this I mean Scott and KV).
Do you not remember
Chykie getting beat deep on the first series?
"I want to be remembered as the guy who gave his all whenever he was on the field."
-Walter Payton
Unfortunately
Yes. I had that in mind when I made that post. Just an interesting thought. Perhaps Chykie is the one KV should be replacing, instead of Blake. Also, I don’t think Chykie should be playing on the outside CB spot. I like A.J. and Curtis there for damage control purposes.
Seriously...
people are still on this?
by LonghorninRaiderland on Sep 8, 2010 1:40 PM CDT reply actions
Sadly,
its been going on since November 1st, 2008, and it will continue until he graduates.
Stumpy: It's called the '80s. Ford was president, Nixon was in the White House, and FDR was running this country into the ground. I was bummin' in a hole-in-the-wall town in what is now called "Utah".
No doubt Vacarro has a great upside
but he has only played “decently” in 1 game, and that being against Rice, he is not ready to take on a starting role against a team like OU or Neb. That is not to say he couldn’t, but when you have proven vs. unproven, you can ease him into those types of situations instead of throwing him to the wolves. Gideon was put right into the fire, but he was the best option at that time.
Wow, a lot of discussion here about who should be playing
and it’s perfectly OK to express one’s viewpoint. However, both BG and KV wear burnt orange and that means there is one person whose evaluation matters. It’s the the guy that has everyone’s trust wearing burnt orange, the one who is a defensive guru/genius, the head coach in waiting, the one who goes BOOM. At the end of the day he’s the one who evaluates the talent and makes the decision. Maybe like many have said he wants to bring Vacaro along slowly and use Gideon’s talents/experience. Whatever the case, how can you go against a DC like Muschamp. I’m sure the only thing he’s concerned about is winning and improving the defense. I would defer to his decisions.
Well...
I think somebody on our team is BurntOranged’s’ Longhorn Pinata.
by TheElusiveShadow on Sep 9, 2010 4:10 PM CDT reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
