Conference Realignment: Missouri A Big XII Member... For Now
by TXStampede on Oct 25, 2011 10:24 AM CDT
in Conference Realignment
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PrintAt an undisclosed location in Dallas, The Big XII Board of Directors met today in a regularly scheduled meeting to discuss various topics ranging from Tier 1 & 2 television rights to a potential Conference TV Network.
But most of us following the action have been waiting for some signal that the University of Missouri would submit its resignation as a conference member. Recall last week that the Missouri Bard of Curators granted chancellor Deaton was granted the authorization "to take action and negotiate contracts" on behalf of the University. Soon after, Deaton announced publicly the school was having "communications" with Southeastern Conference officials.
However, today's meeting did not result in any further realignment fireworks. There was speculation the league members, including TCU who also participated in the get together, would receive from Missouri a notice of conditional withdrawal. But it appears it did not happen.
The Kansas City Star contacted interim league commissioner Chuck Neinas regarding the topic of Missouri.
"The conference encouraged Missouri to stay in the Big 12,” Neinas added, referred to a statement to be released by the league on the Big 12 Board of Directors meeting on Monday in Dallas.
When asked if following its release Neinas could be asked for further guidance, Neinas said: “You could, but I won’t give you any.”
NBC affiliate KOMU in Columbia caught up with chancellor Deaton at the airport today and spoke to him about the potential move to the SEC.
Fresh off a Monday night flight from Dallas, MU Chancellor Brady Deaton commented on his meeting with the Big 12 Board of Directors saying, "I wish them [the Big 12] the best and all that, so we'll see where that goes."
"There's no delays here at all. There's some very specific things that have to be adressed. We want to address those," said Deaton. "We really can't rush these things. These are things you can't rush. I know fans get impatient I gotta say I'm very sympathetic. What I hope they will understand that this is not a set of issues that one can just press a button and be done with it. There are some issues that have to be adressed on behalf of the University of Missouri and that's what we're doing, looking out for the University of Missouri."
When asked if he had the needed votes from the SEC presidents for an invite he replied, "I'll let them speak for themselves, we're reasonably clear about where we stand."
Given the signals Missouri continues to send, it is not surprising the Big 12 Board is planning for a Missouri departure which would bring the total to four members lost over a two year period. Apparently Deaton is reaching into the Loftin bag of communication tricks. One wonders if these guys are just puppets on Mike Slive strings.
The league offered an official release this evening.
“In a regularly-scheduled meeting today at an undisclosed Dallas area location, the Big 12 Conference Board of Directors reaffirmed previous action to execute institutional grants of Tier 1 (over-the-air) and Tier 2 (cable) television rights to the Conference.
“The Board also discussed a wide range of topics including NCAA legislation, the Bowl Championship Series, and exploration of a Conference dedicated TV network.
“Additionally, a strong desire for the University of Missouri to maintain its Big 12 affiliation was expressed. All 10 member institutions and TCU participated in the meeting.”
In other news, the league continues to advance its research in lining up potential replacements should Missouri leave. It appears the league has its eyes on a couple of Big East members in Louisville and West Virginia with a slant to the latter due to its big revenue football program. But what is increasingly evident is there does not necessarily be support to push the league back to twelve members in the immediate future. The work toward stabilization is still in progress.
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It sounds reasonable
Mizzou will have to cough up about 30 mil if they depart.Thier travel costs will skyrocket.
I would hate to lose the St. Louis market.
If they leave will they now become Aggie’s greatest rival?
by TCB Orange Dino on Oct 24, 2011 11:24 PM CDT reply actions
Mizzou & Aggies great rivals? No.
Texas will always be aggy’s greatest rival. They’re obsessed with us.
Disagree….Ags/Longhorn rival is really a thing of the past to most Ags ….it was a fun run but let’s all move on….It has become ugly and needs to come to an end——that is what I am hearing from most Ags. Done….time to move on. Seems that will make everyone happy. Definitely no obsession from Ags….
I hear that a lot too
and it makes me kind of sad. I’ve always really enjoyed the A&M-texas games, and I think it’s a great rivalry. I really hope it doesn’t end, and that if it does it’s resurrected quickly.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Oct 25, 2011 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions
I could go either way on it
I think OU would be the really tragic rivalry to lose, but it looks like that won’t happen.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
― Isaac Asimov
by burntorangehorn on Oct 25, 2011 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions
Agree Wholeheartedly
100 yr old rivalries don’t grow on trees. Is OU a bigger rivalry? Doesn’t matter because both rivalries are truly unique. OU brings more the good vs. evil kind of vibe, while Aggie brings a big brother/little brother with chip on the shoulder kind of thing. When OU plays in a BCS game – I root against them. When A&M plays in a BCS game (play along with me here) I root for them, but then surprisingly get a rush of happiness when they blow up at the end. Both are valued rivals IMHO.
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
Wow, that's exactly how I view both rivalries ...
… and how I watch each & every opponents’ games & bowls. 0U is truly evil and a&m is just a gnat.
Ags Are Bitter About Losing the Thanksgiving Day Game Against TEXAS
Looking at their blogs, there is overwhelming whining regarding the loss of this rivalry for the Ags…particularly from a revenue perspective. This was, by far, their biggest money-maker of the season with the biggest impact on College Station economy. Anyone saying otherwise is trying to put on a brave little face for their Longhorn friends…the Ag administration is fuming…but resigned to the fact that DeLoss calls the shots.
The Aggies
did not get any extra money for that game. Conference payout for it was the same. Did it help the local economy? Yes, but it didn’t add a significant amount of money to the AD coffers.
Now, if we were to make that game an OOC Turkey Day Game? The payout for the arky game is 5 million to each school. This game could easily surpass that, maybe even get up to the 7-10 million per level. That’s some serious cash and will hopefully drive both schools to resume the rivalry.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Oct 25, 2011 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Per Chuck Carlton twitter of the Dallas Morning News
Hearing from Big 12 school sources that Missouri, Big 12 are negotiating legal issues, including departure date (2012 or ’13) and exit fees.
Final Deaton (in more ways than one): Says Big 12 “making some of the right moves … and I wish them the best and all of that.” Buh-bye.
Clarification on Big 12 network concept: would not include home Texas events because of LHN. Unsure about road. Same with OU.
Big 12 network would include schools affiliated with both Learfield Sports and IMG. I’m told that won’t be a major problem.
Here’s a little info on Big 12 network concept. Would not include Texas obviously and probably not OU, working on its own deal.
But Tigers are clearly gone at this point. Only question is when, maybe within a week. West Virginia has become strong leading candidate.
Burnt Orange Nation
Follow Along on Twitter @TXStampede
Thats what I think they should've done to begin with
When the LHN was announced, the Big XII should’ve formed a conference network and show things from every school except Texas. Show Texas road games on Big XII network, show Texas home games on LHN
"Stability is a factor in teams that win the championship. But if you stabilize on a team that's going to end up short of that, then all you're doing is spinning your wheels in the 45-win range."-----Daryl Morey
by fanoflosingteams on Oct 25, 2011 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions
That's
not something that could happen. Texas road games are almost always picked up by the major networks, leaving all texas games but maybe one off the network. If OU creates their own network with 3rd tier rights they have the same problem of almost all of their games being picked up. That leaves the Big 12 network with games from teams that are not as valuable, leading to a much smaller payout for the other schools, and potentially making the network a non-starter with only 8 schools participating.
It’s not easy to create a conference network without your most valuable television properties. There is a reason the other conference networks have every team as a participant.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Oct 25, 2011 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions
That is the exact reason that DeLoss approached the entire conference first
about the proposal of a conference network. He knew Texas and OU needed to be a part of it. Then tried the Flagship Network and was again rebuffed. Then realized that Texas could go alone while no one else could. The other schools put themselves in this mess in the first place so they have to now make lemonade out of cow patties they created for themselves. Texas cannot help them now. OU can but likely will go alone and leave the rest to defend for themselves.
by RQ on Oct 25, 2011 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions
I have not heard
anything about Deloss approaching the conference for a conference network. I’ve heard that he approached A&M to start a Texas A&M – texas network, but that’s it. Where did you read that? Link please!
Side Note: I’ve also heard rumors that the A&M-texas network would have a 30-70 split, a 40-60 split, and a 50-50 split, so I have no idea what the actual revenue / profit split would have been for that. That’s the only network I’ve heard about that wasn’t texas only.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Oct 25, 2011 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm pretty sure no revenue split was discussed.
At that time, most people thought school specific networks wouldn’t make much (or any) money.
The report was that Texas had proposed a conference network like the Big Ten's
And that only one school, I believe either Nebraska or Mizzou, was in favor of it. Very short-sighted bunch, these schools.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
― Isaac Asimov
by burntorangehorn on Oct 25, 2011 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions
Why West Virginia?
Why would they want to be isolated in the southwest. If makes no sense to either the Big 12 or WV.
If they want to reach out, why not Boise St..OK they have that blue field, never mind..
If
the big east falls apart, WV HAS to end up in a BCS conference. Only one that takes them is the Big 12. They don’t have a choice.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Oct 25, 2011 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions
The Big 12 is the only BCS AQ conference that would take them right now
But looking down the road, I think future SEC shake-ups could jeopardize WVU’s long-term membership.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
― Isaac Asimov
by burntorangehorn on Oct 25, 2011 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions
Morgantown is closer to any Big 12 schools than is Boise
Morgantown to Ames, 870mi.
Morgantown to Columbia, 740mi. (closest current member)
Morgantown to Lawrence, 900mi.
Morgantown to Manhattan, 980mi.
Morgantown to Stillwater, 1080mi.
Obviously Columbia might be a non-factor at some point, but if Louisville were in the mix, the distance there is a mere 400mi., making it the one school that would be reasonable driving distance for many WV fans. Memphis would be about 750mi.
On the other hand…
Boise to Columbia, 1500mi.
Boise to Ames, 1400mi.
Boise to Manhattan, 1270mi.
Boise to Lawrence, 1390mi.
Boise to Lubbock, 1250mi. (closest current member)
If BYU were in the mix, then Boise to Provo would be 380mi., which would be very reasonable. One way or the other, the very closest current conference member to Boise is around the same distance as the very farthest current member from Morgantown. The argument that the geography makes more sense for BSU than for WVU doesn’t really compute.
On the other hand, there are actually some sound arguments in favor of BSU over WVU. One of them is that BSU is extremely unlikely to eventually be poached by another conference, because the only other BCS-caliber game in town for them is probably the Pac-12. Furthermore, they’re definitely fast risers with good potential staying power. They don’t have any significant regional rivalries in place that would represent scheduling entanglements. The school has also shown significant commitment to branding and developing its athletic program, so it’s unlikely to be an underfunded program.
Like BSU, WVU is a time zone away, but the eastern zone offers some advantages. It can get games on TV earlier, which represents an advantage in a sort of TV audience inertia. Morgantown is also situated in a place that would tip a lot of regional coverage map decisions(especially DC, Baltimore, and Pittsburgh) in favor of games featuring WVU. And while existing rivalries can sometimes represent inconvenient entanglements for a prospective member, WVU does have some solid out-of-conference rivalries, especially the traditional Backyard Brawl with Pitt, as well as long-standing series with Maryland and Syracuse. One of the reasons Louisville would be great in a package deal with WVU would be because they’ve also developed a pretty decent rivalry in recent years. WVU also has solid revenue for football and is situated in a decent area to have basketball potential.
Anyway, there are obviously advantages and disadvantages to each, but if geography were the deciding factor that you say, then WVU wins pretty easily IMO.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
― Isaac Asimov
by burntorangehorn on Oct 25, 2011 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions
louisville
I am not sure people like Louisville. We got rid of a little brother, why do we want another? Kentucky is a small mkt and recruiting offers little. Louisville is very close to Cincy, but the that mkt is locked up the Big 10. Louisville offers little upside in the long-term. They are sandwiched between the Big 10 and SEC, so football recruiting will be very hard. In-state doesnt offer a large enough base to succeed.
There's a lot to like
Louisville is the #55 television market, about the same size as Oklahoma City. Not bad but not great. But the football program is trending up and the basketball program is a perennial contender. The baseball team isn’t bad, either.
Similar to Austin, it’s a nice city that has more going on than just the university. They’ve got a die-hard fanbase that travels.
With the options available to the conference right now, this is about as good as it’s gonna get.
Simplicity is always the secret, to a profound truth, to doing things, to writing, to painting. Life is profound in its simplicity. - Charles Bukowski
by windycityhorn on Oct 25, 2011 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions
nice city
have you been there? I would take Houston over Louisville any day.. It has 15K undergrads. Program shot up after John L Smith and Petrino came there, so I am not sure how it is trending up. I really like Strong but they are facing serious issues recruiting that I said will be hard to over come in the long term. 40k stadium. Basketball is very good, but in the end that isnt what realignment is about. School is ranked 164 by US News
Being capable of competing for recruiting supremacy in Kentucky...
…isn’t really that much worse than competing for 5th place in Texas. Plus they bring additional market, whereas Houston doesn’t.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
― Isaac Asimov
by burntorangehorn on Oct 25, 2011 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions
maybe
Kentucky is a UK state. Very similar to UT and A&M. I dont think Big 12 dominates Houston. It is an area where SEC and Oregon have had success. I think putting a Big 12 school there could help clean up the recruiting cesspool that is Houston. I cant sunstantiate those claims, but it is just my thoughts.
Kentucky is only a UK state for basketball
The state is up for grabs in football, and Louisville has definitely been the stronger program the past couple of decades.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
― Isaac Asimov
by burntorangehorn on Oct 25, 2011 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions
The Big 12 dominates Houston as a media market, which is what drives realignment
The same could be said for TCU and DFW, but recruiting isn’t the major concern.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
― Isaac Asimov
by burntorangehorn on Oct 25, 2011 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions
I have been there
I’m a Midwesterner and I’ve done a fair bit of traveling around these parts. Comparing it to nearby neighbors, Louisville is not as beautiful as Cincinnati but has a lot more going on culturally. It has a decent music and food scene, not nearly as good as Memphis but it’s also safer than Memphis with less “sketch.” Parts of it are really beautiful, especially the riverfront.
I’d take Louisville as a road trip over, just off the top of my head: Norman, Stillwater, Lubbock, Waco, Columbia, and Manhattan. Oh, and Blacksburg, too — though West Virginia is gorgeous and people are super friendly.
Simplicity is always the secret, to a profound truth, to doing things, to writing, to painting. Life is profound in its simplicity. - Charles Bukowski
by windycityhorn on Oct 25, 2011 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions
Blacksburg?
That’s Virginia Tech. You’re thinking Morgantown, I guess. I’ve never been there, as my only significant time spent in WV has been in the “panhandle” (Berkeley Springs, Martinsburg, etc.), but people here in MD talk about it as a decent enough destination.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
― Isaac Asimov
by burntorangehorn on Oct 25, 2011 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions
Right, wrong city
My bad.
Simplicity is always the secret, to a profound truth, to doing things, to writing, to painting. Life is profound in its simplicity. - Charles Bukowski
by windycityhorn on Oct 25, 2011 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions
The city/school that ought to be a target
- now or soon - is Memphis. I know their football is sucky awful at this point, and they’ve had issues with ethics in basketball (in the ’80s, and with the team that lost to Kansas in the title game a few years back). Those things are fixable. Student population is 21,000.
Memphis is about the same as Louisville in TV market but is larger in population and is growing at a rate comparable to the larger cities in Texas. Memphis’ population is greater than Seattle, Boston, Baltimore. Memphis is 650 miles from Austin, 475 from Stillwater, 575 from Manhattan, 485 from Fort Worth. The Liberty Bowl seats 61,000. Memphis is far enough from Nashville & Knoxville that it has its own (potential) fan base separate from Tennessee and Vanderbilt.
Just postulating . . .
I agree that Memphis should be a consideration
I just don’t think that they should necessarily be prioritized ahead of WV, UL, Cinci, or BYU. I could certainly appreciate arguments that they should, though, because there’s a solid argument to be made for them.
The Memphis media market is actually quite a bit smaller than Baltimore, and also littler than Cincinnati. It’s marginally larger than Louisville. While you’re correct that Memphis proper has a population larger than that of those cities you mentioned, the Baltimore, Boston, and Seattle metro areas are each greater than twice the size of the Memphis metropolitan area. But it’s definitely no slouch of a metro, and its location in the football belt certainly boosts its value relative to those more basketball- and NFL-centric cities.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
― Isaac Asimov
by burntorangehorn on Oct 25, 2011 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Louisville offers a whole lot, actually
Don’t underestimate them. They have pretty good football potential, and their fanbase, facilities, etc. are extremely new and pretty solid. But they’re out of this world in economic value of their basketball program. Duke is #1 ($26.7M in revenues for the 2009-2010 season), but Louisville is a very close second ($25.9M for same), and earns almost three times the average ($8.8M) for teams that are in BCS AQ football conferences. North Carolina is a distant third ($20.6M).
You might recall that Louisville has had a very good football program at times, especially under Petrino. Between that and their elite basketball value, they’d be a solid addition.
While Duke’s revenues were higher in basketball, Louisville actually had the most profitable program in that sport, because their expenses were lower. In fact, their basketball program earned better profits than the football teams for Oregon, USC, Wisconsin, Virginia Tech, and West Virginia, among many other notable schools. Yes, football. UL’s football program didn’t earn as much, as they were at a pretty low point at the end of the Kragthorpe era, but they still earned more than Florida State, Boston College, or Cincinnati in football.
http://businessofcollegesports.com/2011/06/20/which-football-and-basketball-programs-produce-the-largest-profits/
Louisville’s overall athletics program profits (including losses in non-revenue sports, like almost every other school has) were over $2M in 2009-2010, making them more profitable than Auburn, among others.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
― Isaac Asimov
by burntorangehorn on Oct 25, 2011 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Right now everybody the B-12 is after could be classified as "little brother".
Louisville does get the B-12 into the Southwest Ohio, Kentucky, and Indiana markets for whatever that is worth. It is certainly a bigger TV market than WVU will bring to the table. Plus really some really good round ball.
Great players make great coaches, but great coaches make champions." DKR circa 1964
Eh, not in a million years
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
― Isaac Asimov
by burntorangehorn on Oct 25, 2011 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions
Prolly trying to weasel in on Mizzou's exit fees
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
why West Virgina? Politic's at play for WV
West Virginia may feel more connected to Texas and Oklahoma due to the large amount of energy production in the state. 2nd largest coal reserves in the US and Natural gas fields.
“The conference encouraged Missouri to stay in the Big 12,"….. probably means " The conference will require $30 million if you want to leave now or zero if you want to leave after next year.. "The conference encouraged Missouri to stay in the Big 12,…for one more year then we want you to leave"
Big 12 by laws
are a clusterf*ck, and no one knows how much anyone is going to actually have to pay. The entire buyout system is a mess. Heck, the bylaws themselves state in one section that if a team withdraws early the conf tv payments are withheld, but if you leave early, there are no payments to withhold, so how does that even work?
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Oct 25, 2011 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions
why west virginia?
think it is pretty simple. They are the best athletic program available. WV has nowhere else to go. Mizzu has no nationally recognized rival (border war doesnt have national appeal), so we are replacing them with a similar program. While annoying this is as even a trade as can be expected given the situation.
The most logical add would be
the University of Houston, which is currently the best football team in Texas. They also play other sports and its a regional game with some history.
WVU, Cinci, L’Ville make no regional wow factors
Ppl will travel to Houston and the game sells out.
Whoa, let's tone back the UH football rhetoric
Houston doesn’t have any regional wow factor, and selling out home tickets is really, really far down the list of importance. Cincinnati, WVU, Louisville, and BYU represent better economic alternatives to Houston. Memphis might as well. Boise might be about even.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
― Isaac Asimov
by burntorangehorn on Oct 25, 2011 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions
houston
I wanted Houston over TCU. I stil dont understand that decision. I think it was completely short-sighted. Houston has much more potential than TCU long-term
I prefer prefers Houston as well
But it’s very easy to sell out a stadiumthat seats 40,000. Games would have to be played at Reliant. Maybe the coogs can use the dome!
I don't understand "t-sip" as an insult. I like drinking tea, and when is being classy a bad thing?
by TexaStunna on Oct 25, 2011 9:03 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
damn phone
Meant to reply to sam…
I don't understand "t-sip" as an insult. I like drinking tea, and when is being classy a bad thing?
by TexaStunna on Oct 25, 2011 9:05 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Could it Be
We do not want to develop a Big 12 school in that recruiting area? Maybe Hou more of a threat in their backyard than TCU is in the Dallas area?
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
Ill take WVU
because my GF(soon to be fiancee) and her whole family is WVU nuts. Then I get to talk trash to her family without penalty
"Stability is a factor in teams that win the championship. But if you stabilize on a team that's going to end up short of that, then all you're doing is spinning your wheels in the 45-win range."-----Daryl Morey
by fanoflosingteams on Oct 25, 2011 8:57 AM CDT reply actions
But if your GF is also your sister, doesn't that already give you trash talking rights?
Kidding :) Just a little WVU jab…congrats on the upcoming nuptials.
I think WVU brings a big name and some nice history and tradition, but I just can’t see it making sense geographically…then again, I see BYU working out and maybe Salt Lake City isn’t that much closer to most Big XII teams than Morgantown.
How do you get to Morgantown by the way…fly into Pittsburgh and drive in?
@longhorn54b
Pittsburgh's the most likely place
It’s also possible to fly to Morgantown’s airport, which is connected by a United regional carrier to the big Dulles Airport, so that’s actually fairly easy.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
― Isaac Asimov
by burntorangehorn on Oct 25, 2011 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions
As the others said, they're ACC
There was some suggestion of them before the ACC move, but they should’ve been in that conference long ago. I think Syracuse should have as well. In both cases, I think media market/footprint trumped everything else for the first time, because Boston College got the twelfth spot instead of either of those. VT was the other one, but IIRC it took a lot of political favors cashed in by Virginia politicians and a lot of leverage/pressure placed on UVA to get VT into the conference.
I would’ve loved to have seen the Big 12 absorb Pittsburgh. They’re academically and athletically strong, bring a semi-decent market, and would make pretty solid members overall. Pair them with schools like Louisville, Cincinnati, West Virginia, or even Memphis, and I think the makings of a good comeback from the poaching would’ve been in place.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
― Isaac Asimov
by burntorangehorn on Oct 25, 2011 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions
WVU seems to have a lot of fans in the DC area.
I went to a Georgetown WVU basketball game last year (or maybe the year before?) and it was probably 40% WVU fans and they were a lot louder than the home team fans.
I'm a fan of this move
I like Louisville, too. But from a football perspective, WVU brings more. They feel like a Big 12 team, too — look at their offense. And it’s the pre-eminent program in the Big East.
I’m not a fan of a ten-team league. I know that’s what OU and Texas seem to want, but I don’t see the logic.
I know the thinking is that a team that goes undefeated in the regular season can have its championship dreams shattered by losing in the championship.
But:
1) If they lose that game, they shouldn’t have been in the BcS title game anyway.
2) A one-loss team that wins convincingly in a championship game can actually improve its BCS standing. It gives voters one more chance to be impressed by a team.
3) Ask the Big 10 schools how they liked not playing on a weekend when the other conferences were playing important games.
4) It makes money.
5) The fans like it.
Simplicity is always the secret, to a profound truth, to doing things, to writing, to painting. Life is profound in its simplicity. - Charles Bukowski
by windycityhorn on Oct 25, 2011 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions
WVU by the #'s
Value – (public athletic depts per Indiana University study)
Mizzou – $99.4m (33rd)
WVU – $141m (21st)
UH – Negative $4m (Bottom 10 public school in value)
Record (since 2000)
Mizzou 80-57
WVU 95-43
BCS Bowl Record
Mizzou 0-0
WVU 2-0
Merchandise Rankings
Mizzou (18th)
WVU (15th)
Driving time to major airport(s)
Mizzou (2 hours to KC, 2 hours to St L)
Morgantown (1.5 hours to Pitt)
So
if we’re really going to compare Mizzou and WVU, lets use some numbers that actually matter!
Mizzou
-Larger per year university size (33.8K vs 29.3K)
-Over twice the endowment ($975 million vs $400 million)
-Larger alumni base (248,000 living vs 170,000),
-Better academic reputation (AAU vs Non-AAU; US News #90 vs #164)
-Larger TV market (St. Louis and Kansas City, #21 and #31 vs #150 and higher for West Virginia markets, unless you want to count Pittsburgh at #24, which you really shouldn’t)
-Slightly worse record in football while in a much much better conference
-Other sports are comparable
WVU is a decided step down from Mizzou. To pretend otherwise is silly.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Oct 25, 2011 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions
4
The total number of Big 12 championships won by Missouri since the inception of the Big 12. In any sport — men’s or women’s.
75-37-5. Now GTFO.
Silliness is our mantra around here.
…and don’t you forget it!
So.
They are worth more, they win more games (including BCS), they sell more stuff. What are you pretending? You don’t think their TV market will swell when they are playing Texas and OU every year?
...
no, i do not think the TV market will swell when they play texas and OU every year unless they just have crazy amounts of sex and have tons of kids and the size of the population increases.
And West Virginia has 0 Big 12 championships since the big 12 was created. Unless you want to say that the Big east and Big 12 are equivalent in all sports, it really doesn’t matter the number of conference championships mizzou has. The point is not comparing Mizzou to other big 12 schools, but to West Virginia.
sounds like
garbage. so your point is…mizzou is better because they are worth more money and live in a state with more people. first off, fact 1…last time i checked (wvu fan) fans dont show up to watch money play on the field or court (maybe you guys do things differently in the show me state). secondly, we dont have any big 12 titles…but we do have that nice fiesta bowl win over OU (where was mizzou playing)…so we beat your big 12 championship on national tv (in front of a lot of traveling wvu fans)….which brings me to yet another point. wvu fans will travel, its why we are always fought over in bowl season. oh, not to mention, ask OU fans who’s the last team to beat them in their home opener. if wvu doesnt win the big east, say they finish 4th or 5th…they always get the bowl taht supposed to go to the big east teams ahead of them….because our fans travel and watch on tv. also, anyone who knows anything about wvu, knows that a lot of wvu grads (as well as other wv’ians who go to the smaller state universities) leave the state for better jobs. its why we are a pretty big draw in the pitt, dc, and ny markets. we also have a basketball program thats been in the ncaa tourney almost every year for the past decade (including a final 4 appearance, how many of those does mizzou have?)
point is, big 12 is losing a bigger tv market, a school with more money (right now) and a state with more people. but they are gaining a university backed by almost the entire state (minus marshall territory…which lets be honest, is still full of as many wvu fans as marshall fans), and is head and shoulders above missouri in terms of the on the field (court) performance. when missouri is finishing 6th in the sec west and wvu is fighting for the big 12 title every 2 to 4 years….lets see what you think of the two programs. wvu instantly adds a top notch basketball program (our football program speaks for itself) which puts the big 12 up there with the acc (which lets be honest, tahts why they raided the big east this time…basketball). i know most of this (99%) is football related, but ive read a few articles taht say it was coach K at duke who really pushed for cuse and pitt, cause he was upset that big east was the bigger bball draw (and they want a bball tourney in madison square garden). tahts my only fear, wvu is losing (possibly) its big draw in the state of ny for bball recruits.
last but not least, as one of my friends said the other day….the main reason i like the big 12…they seem to want us. i think the big 12 wins out big time in this scenario. granted im biased. as someone who sits right beside the visiting fans at football games, im looking foward to seeing big 12 fans at the games and having some good friendly conversations. for the record, not all wvu fans are idiots, most of us are very polite and friendly. i sat alone beside 2 lsu fans during the recent game at mountaineer field and had nothing but a good time (minus that score). i think most of you will enjoy the trip to morgantown, its a beautiful place with great people (yes we ahve some idiots….so does everyone…and in truth, most of those are college kids…many who arent born and raised wv’ians). for the fan above who asked how to get there….you can also fly into charleston and drive 3 hours….like most of the wv fans….its a 3 and half hour drive each way for me.
ps…as for the gf/sister joke….come, you can do better, lol. we’ve heard it all before, bring it on.
by wos day yank on Oct 25, 2011 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions
No
None of those things were my point. My point was tv markets don’t swell due to new teams. They swell due to increases in population and one way to do this is crazy amounts of sex. And that total conference championships is not very relevant when comparing teams from vastly different conferences.
And I didn’t make a gf/sister joke… At least not one that I remember.
by YamOSU on Oct 25, 2011 11:24 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I am arguing
that WVU has had their record inflated by playing in an incredibly crappy conference ever since VT and Miami left, and will be lucky to play in a BCS bowl once it gets into tougher competition in the Big 12.
Know how many conf titles WVU has? 10 across all sports. 5 where they weren’t co-champions. In 20 years. One of those in basketball, 2 outright in football, 4 shared. 5 of those football ones came after every other competitive football school left the Big East.
AD Revenue for 09-10: 62 million for WVU, 55 million for Missouri.
Missouri is a larger school with a much larger TV footprint and alumni base, and has a huge growth potential compared to WVU. It is just plain better. There is a reason the ACC didn’t try to add WVU and that the SEC prefers MU to WVU.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Oct 25, 2011 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions
In all Honesty
The suits at ESPN run the show. Check the advertisements that they run – then calculate the number of people in the geographic area will buy that stuff. Check the demographics, the average income, all the other stuff is window dressing. No offense to WVU – but they just do not bring a market. The quality of the athletic programs, coaching are a real strength.
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
not so fast, my friend
WVU is a decided step down from Mizzou. To pretend otherwise is silly.
The real drivers in the worth of a program are FB and Men’s BB. So let’s look at Sagarin ratings
Today – MU 80, WVU 79
2010 – 83, 78
2009 – 73, 78
2008 – 82, 79
2007 – 90, 92
Men’s BB
2010 – 86, 91
2009 – 90, 87
2008 – 62, 88
2007 – 79, 86
And BCS Records – MU 0-0. WVU 2-0
So to say WVU is a “decided step down” simply isn’t born out by on the field or court performance. All the factors you used are window dressing. They are at the very least a lateral move in FB and a decided step up in BB.
Athletetically
WVU has had more success on the basketball court, and probably will continue to do so. In football they have only done well after the Big East became an 8 team league where 7 of the teams were as follows: Syracuse, Pitt, Cincy, L-Ville, USF, Uconn, Rutgers.
How do you think MU would have done in that league?
The REASON football matters is because it has many fans who follow it. Winning certainly helps, but A&M is a very valuable TV property despite the fact that we’ve sucked for 10 years. Missouri has a much larger TV footprint and alumni base, and WVU’s marginally better basketball team and equal football team do not come anywhere near making up for the eyeball’s that are leaving with MU.
There is a reason the ACC and SEC didn’t try to add WVU. WVU is better than L-Ville and Cincy, but it isn’t better than MU.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Oct 25, 2011 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions
merchandizing sales
Great way to actually track the following schools have
The top 25: 1. Texas
2. Alabama,
3. Florida,
4. LSU,
5. North Carolina,
6. Georgia,
7. Michigan,
8. Kentucky,
9. Penn State,
10. Oklahoma,
11. Notre Dame,
12. Tennessee,
13. West Virginia,
14. Nebraska,
15. Auburn,
16. Wisconsin,
17. Kansas,
18. Missouri,
19. Florida State,
20. Arkansas,
21. Texas A&M,
22. Illinois,
23. South Carolina,
24. Texas Tech,
25. Clemson.
notice where WVU is compared to Mizzu and TAMU
I Don't Like WVU At All
First of all, they are much tougher game than Mizzou – consistently. Their home fields and courts are nothing but traps. They may sell more sell merch, but those sales are coming at the expense of diapers and baby formula. Just not much happening from a GDP point of view. Not to slam the area, there are some beautiful aspects to the school and program, but to say it is “backwoodsy” is an understatement.
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
.....
cause we are the only state with poverty? for the above post…the acc doesnt want us because we arent crap in football and basketball (duke couldnt handle losing to us in bball on a more regular basis)…as for the sec…you cant say for sure they dont want us…no one knows what would have happened ( or what will) if we had elected to stay in the big east…we might have been the 15th team in the sec). fact is, with the exception of the va tech…all the former big east schools who left arent relevant at all in college football anymore (miami only gets coverage because they are miami). i know, someone will say, thats because they left the big easy for the acc….id say, its cause the ACC is crap. the only thing they have going is bball. tell me, how many of you fear playing an ACC team in a BCS bowl….i know…no one feared the big easy either…but someone do me a favor…put the bowl record by conference up…..then lets have this talk again. big east outperforms on a regular basis. one more thing, as for that vaunted SEC…big east has a winning record in bowl games vs them too. jsut ask geogia..they believed the same bs about the big east too…remember the idiot who said…steve slaton who? oh, we got a practice team player simulating him…. my point is, everyone under estimates us…and tahts fine with us. just like when we beat OU in the fiest bowl….49 states thought we were a joke….until the runaway beer truck showed them whats up. as for the real mccoy, i suspect, if you visted wv, you’d realize that the largest % of the population lives in the charleston, huntington areas, as well as the wheeling, parkersburg areas…which arent exatly backwoods.we got taht new invention called running water, plumbing, and even that fancy lil magic picture box…you know, the one we get to watch our “backwoods” school beat all you upper class folks….just ask john wall….
by wos day yank on Oct 25, 2011 6:29 PM CDT up reply actions
ps...
….as for the sec, of course they want missouri over us….they have all those nices things mentioed above…and they arent giong to win a damn thing…just like in the big 12.
by wos day yank on Oct 25, 2011 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Please Accept Apology
It did not come through clearly enough that the reason I do not want WVU is because I have tremendous respect for the quality of the athletic teams, and the enthusisasm of the home crowd.
As for the other part of the comment, I have to stand by it. I am very familiar with the area, and much of it is beautiful country. Unfortunately, when you measure it in sheer market size, GDP, it falls short of most of the country.
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
Exactly.
WVU is a great school, and everyone follows it in WV. The problem is not the school. The problem is the size of the state, the size of the alumni base, the declining GDP of the state, and the overall TV market size of the state (no TV markets in state > 150).
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Oct 26, 2011 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions
that's why you use Sagarin ratings
they take out the conference variable and level the playing field. Makes for an apples to apples comparison. it doesn’t make any difference how MU would have done in the BEast.
Aggie Logic > Mizzou Logic
and that should scare the chit out of the Tiger faithful. At least Aggie gets a little distinction from its main recruiting rivals, Mizzou is the only state University in D1. What does Mizzou get? An opportunity for the volleyball team to travel to Florida? Have they even thought of this as a total athletic program? Basketball generates some revenue too – big time. If they were smarter than Aggie, usually not difficult, they would bide their time and wait for a Big X invite.
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
For Mizzou
this is a “what happens if texas and OU blow up the big 12 and go PAC or indy” decision. Last time that was set to happen Mizzou was left in the cold without a conference. They can’t afford to let that happen again, so going to the SEC is a must for them.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Oct 25, 2011 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Revisionist History?
Good point – but wasn’t Mizzou chomping at the bit to join NU and was shunned by the Big X? I thought their desire to join the Big X preceded our investigation of the PAC – but I could be wrong.
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
Their desire for the Big X did indeed
come before the PAC moves by the south schools. But the Big X said no. While that was happening it looked like the 6 south schools were all going to go PAC (or 4 with CU and Utah). Missouri looked at that situation and realized that they would have been left out in the cold, with no conference taking them after the Big 12 collapsed. That is what is driving their desire for the SEC. They know it won’t collapse, and they know they’ll have a seat at the table for whatever playoff or BCS system arises after the current one falls. That’s what is important to them.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Oct 26, 2011 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions
Not backed up by the facts
This timeline makes it pretty clear that the first Big 12 school to mention leaving was none other than MU. So to say they were only being reactionary, doesn’t match the facts:
http://newsok.com/conference-realignment-timeline-1987-to-now/article/3468100
Not being
revisionist. And I never said they were being reactionary. That the schools looking to join the PAC happened after MU looked at the Big X doesn’t change that those schools almost left, and that if they had left MU would have been out of a BCS conference, with the Big East as the only assured potential suitor (they were looking for more football members). Would that have been their fault? Yes, but it doesn’t change that they would have been out in the cold.
With the Big East now being raided, MU has no guaranteed potential suitors, as the Big X has said no multiple times and the PAC has shown no interest, or the ACC. If the south schools ever look at going indy (texas) or PAC (the rest of the south) than once again MU would be left in the cold. That’s why they have to take a seat at the table when it is offered.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Oct 26, 2011 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Helpful example
You are in a science class with 8 assigned study groups. 4 of the study groups (one of which is yours) get good grades. 4 do not. You have relationship issues with some members of your study group, and so try to join one of the other 3 good study groups, but are rejected by that group.
The other members of your group then try to leave you behind and merge with one of the other 2 good study groups. While you are being left in the cold, you realize none of the other groups wants you, so you’ll have to move to a bad study group.
You then get the opportunity to move to a good study group that you KNOW won’t separate, as they’ve been friends for years, and that never kicks anyone out. Why wouldn’t you go to that other good study group?
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Oct 26, 2011 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions
All of the BS logic on your part falls apart
on one issue. You are saying that two conflicting conditions existed simultaneously — that if the Big 12 fell apart, no one would want MU, and at the same time, that if the Big 12 stayed together, they are going to the SEC. So which is it? Every B12 school is ready to commit six years of TV revenue, except one. It certainly isn’t because of “instability” that MU is leaving – they are the only thing that is unstable. Come up with another excuse, because that one won’t carry water.
Another take on Houston
I believe the bad blood between UT and UH, dating to the seating scam, is still real and current for the UT athletic program. I believe that is why UH is a non-starter in the discussions.
Welcome, WVa.
This is the brave new world of collegiate sports, as we all have said. Let us try to enjoy it until it changes, yet again.
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