Dear Coach Barnes: If Not You, Who? If Not Now, When?
With Texas' first round tilt in the 2011 NCAA Basketball Tournament just moments away, I'm having second thoughts. Admittedly, my feelings are mixed and a bit tempered despite being the same guy that said he was "all in" a few months ago as if I were playing poker with my heart and what love and devotion - normally reserved for UT football - I could ante up as collateral.
Due to the late season slump and another fitting for a bridesmaid dress at the Big XII Tourney, I've resigned myself to the idea that when it comes to Longhorns Basketball, this team is probably as good as it gets and our best may never be good enough to win it all.
Yeah, I know, You picked a fine time to leave me, Lucille...so be forewarned that this post is not my usual pep rally and please know that you're not only welcome to, but also encouraged to rip me a new one after the jump. But if I'm going to go dancin' again with the one that brung me, there are some things I just have to get off my chest first...
Before we tackle the rationale behind my 11th hour insecure-fest, I've got to ask...
Do I and the rest of you that are like me have the right to expect more? Should we just be thankful that we have a coach in Rick Barnes that puts a consistently competitive product on the floor and the Burnt Orange is represented in the Big Dance on an annual basis? And should our trip to the Final Four back in 2003 actually be viewed as making it to the top of the mountain? To that end, should winning it all just be a lucky strike extra, catching lightning in a bottle, or simply seen as the proverbial cherry on top?
I don't know, but right or wrong, right now, I don't just want more, I'm demanding it.
Elite college football and basketball programs share a few commonalities that I doubt anyone would argue to the contrary: a solid, consistent coach with a vision/scheme, a continual influx of talented players and decent facilities/support from the administration. But that's where the similarities end for me, especially when outlining what is truly required for making a serious attempt at bringing home a championship.
With elite football programs, a coach can set the program up to make a realistic attempt at the title once every three or four years, knowing it takes time to get key position players to a point of maturity and the team chemistry just right to handle the rigors of making a title run. Despite wanting to win every game, every year, fans - regardless of how delusional they can be - know this to be a reality of the sport.
Conversely, college basketball coaches have no such temporal luxury. Due to the constant attrition of players - either they leave early for the NBA, transfer, drop out or dare I say it, fail to live up to the hype - every basketball season, for lack of a better descriptor, has to be viewed in a vacuum.
Sure, there are holdover players from season to season and one can even make the argument that serious title contenders have to have some upperclassmen influence and stability to make a run at the title. But that doesn't change the fact that the starting five, mental make-up and overall team chemistry can be and usually are completely different from one season to the next despite the coaches and systems remaining constant. Not exactly sure why that has to be but it probably has a lot to do with the best player on the team usually being a "one and done" freshman. The team is his team.
So here we are just moments from the tip and I see the average Longhorns fan saying to him or herself, "given the landscape in college basketball today and from my limited, somewhat unwashed perspective, I know that it takes a mix of elite talent on loan from the NBA and senior leadership to make a serious charge at the title. (At least that seems to be the formula Rick Barnes' has been running with.) So if that's the case, why shouldn't I expect this team to go all the way?"
And I don't want to hear anymore trite excuses like...
"Well, we're a football school, not a basketball school." Oh yeah, go tell that to Augie Garrido. Being a football factory didn't seem to stop him from leading us to the promised land. And go tell Florida they weren't supposed to win their basketball titles.
"Well, you sound just like UT fans before Mack Brown won a title with Vince Young, just be patient." Good point, except wasn't that Kevin Durant fellow pretty good? Must have been, we retired his jersey despite the fact that he didn't help put even one team trophy in the case. It's hard to imagine getting someone better than him on the 40 Acres and if he wasn't even good enough to get us past the second round, then forgive my blasphemy, but I don't think waiting for the second coming of Basketball Orange Jesus is a viable option.
And finally there was this retort I received after lamenting the fact Texas was now 0-6 in Big XII Tourney Title Games: "Chill Out. We'll win it eventually." The commenter was probably right to encourage me to tap the breaks, but still, when is the last time you said, "yep, 7 times is a charm."
I'm sorry, sometimes not even Abe Lincoln's refusal to quit after losing like 10 elections before winning the presidency just isn't enough to placate my immature, impatient, petulant emotional responses.
Regardless, I've got my Orange on and on my way to the Sports Bar to cheer on the Horns. Hopefully the DFW Irish contingency left me a few beers after yesterday and I think a liquid lunch would probably do me some good.
And truth be told, I love Rick Barnes. I think he's the best thing that ever happened to Longhorns Basketball and I can't imagine our team led by any other.
But Rick, I got to ask, "if not this team, which team? If not this year, when?"
Hook'em Always,
54b
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Comments
Thanks for having the courage to write this
I know PB struggles to criticize Rick because he is loyal to him, so its nice to see this honesty.
I’ve probably posted this 20 times this year, but if Rick doesn’t take us to the Final Four this year or next then he should resign. Similarly, he needs to win a championship in the next 5 years or resign.
He has about 25 years of D1 coaching experience and only 1 Final Four to show. Zero National championships. He has done wonders for the program, but if he doesn’t win ti all in 5 years or less its time to see if someone else can get us over the hump.
Enough with this nonsense
I do not struggle to criticize Rick Barnes. I struggle not to criticize weak criticisms of Rick Barnes.
I’m rooting for Texas today, but when this season wraps up I’ll address Cory’s post. He makes some fair criticisms, and misses some points that are relevant.
Hook ’em
You ain't hurt...
Oooh, you know I'm in trouble when PB uses my real name
I look forward to my day in court and watching my myopic, emotional cry for help kick the shit out of your cogent, even-keeled response…
Better pack a lunch, cuz this one came from the heart. And Dr. Phil says emotions and being afraid of clowns is never wrong.
Be nobody but yourself in a world that desperately wants you to be like everybody else.
Don't hate, 4 people on Facebook "Like" me too.
I think that’s enough to start a new site and get funding.
Be nobody but yourself in a world that desperately wants you to be like everybody else.
It doesn't matter that I disagree with you
I love reading your stuff.
watching my myopic, emotional cry for help kick the shit out of your cogent, even-keeled response…
Awesome.
"A lot of people look for the easy way to do anything, in swimming there is no easy way." - Eddie Reese
The big question out there is..
Who else would coach Texas b-ball? I personally think they could get a big name coach if they were willing to pay the money. The Durant year and last year lost all my faith in Barnes as a coach (and everyone else in the country).
by Longhorns84 on Mar 18, 2011 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Ugh
Barnes isn’t a big name coach? There are 345 teams in D-1. Where you would rank him?
Top 15? Top 20?
I’ll help you quickly
Self-Kansas; Coach K-Duke, Williams-UNC, Calhoun-Uconn; Boeheim-Syracuse; Pitino-Louisville; Izzo-Mich State; Kentucky—Calipari; Howland-UCLA; Donovan-Florida; maybe Williams—Maryland.
My list is about complete.
--AW--
by awiggo on Mar 18, 2011 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't see how you cannot rank him in the top 10
if Thompson and Hamilton stays you should win it all next year with Kabongo
Haha
mike you are the best Aggie ever, other than your odd prerequisites for 3-4 DT’s ;)
You think there is a chance both Hamilton and TT come back?
Hamilton is gone
and TT should leave too, it would be hard for him to be picked higher next year. The draft is all about potential, and he’s shown a lot of it.
Having said that: If there is a lock-out that looks like it will last and potentially cancel the NBA season, they could both end up staying.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Mar 18, 2011 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions
As a Maryland resident who's had fun getting into Terps sports...
…I would NOT rank Gary Williams ahead of Rick Barnes. Williams seems like he was just a flash in the pan, to be honest.
I'm sorry, all white people who act black look the same to me.
-Snoop Dogg
by burntorangehorn on Mar 18, 2011 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions
And from that list...
Izzo took a preseason #2 ranking to a 10 seed and first round exit.
Roy Williams missed the tourney last year.
Gary Williams missed the tourney in 05, 06, 08 and this year.
Calipari didn’t make the Final Four with 4 first round picks.
Donovan missed the tourney in ’08 and ’09.
Pitino just lost to 13 seed Morehead St.
Howland missed the tourney last year.
Calhoun has missed 2 of the last 4 tourneys (and is a cheater).
Boeheim missed the tourney in 07 and 08.
Fire them all!
by hayzer13 on Mar 18, 2011 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
5 first round
Picks for Calipari, don’t forget wunderkind Daniel Orton who parlayed a 3-point 3-rebound season into a first round pick by the Magic.
Self lost to Bucknell and Bradley, enough said.
Coach K was being talked about as not even being up with current recruiting trends until he got Irving this year.
Everybody has their problems…
I would think
Really? You would put barnes, with the talent he’s amassed and based on his record, in the top 15? College basketball isn’t football, and what you do in the tournament matters. Rick Barnes has consistently underperformed with his texas teams (in the regular and post seasons). You should make the final four this year, I picked you to do so in my bracket, but I would be shocked if it actually happened.
Without argument the following schools and their respective coaches are on the list ahead of him (if you tlak to people outside of the state of Texas)
Syracuse
Uconn
Kansas
Duke
UNC
Kentucky
Michigan State
Louisville
Florida
OSU
And for the list of schools with coaches you could (and I would) argue are better:
Butler (He’s done amazing things with the talent out of that school, and think of what would happen if he recruited at a place where basketball talent went)
UCLA
Purdue
Pittsburgh
And for the list of coaches that are at least as good (and some would argue are better, some would argue are worse)
WVU
Notre Dame
Gonzaga
Michigan
Arizona
And that doesn’t even include the list of schools that could really argue it. So yeah, Rick Barnes is a decidedly mediocre college basketball coach, not that there is anything wrong with that, most coaches are.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Mar 18, 2011 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions
It's also worth mentioning that money is not a problem in this equation because Barnes is well compensated
Satisfying the ego of a bigger name coach very well could be.
proud to swim home
by learned hand on Mar 18, 2011 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions
please, please, PLEASE do this
I’ve probably posted this 20 times this year, but if Rick doesn’t take us to the Final Four this year or next then he should resign. Similarly, he needs to win a championship in the next 5 years or resign.
He has about 25 years of D1 coaching experience and only 1 Final Four to show. Zero National championships. He has done wonders for the program, but if he doesn’t win ti all in 5 years or less its time to see if someone else can get us over the hump.
dear freaking god, that is an idiotic argument
It is
but only to a point. It’s all about whether or not you think a coach can bring you a title. Do you honestly think Rick Barnes can bring a title to texas? I don’t. I used to think he could. When he had Durant I thought it was his year. When Travis Ford was lighting it up I thought they had a good chance. But now? I’m not so sure. He’s been at texas a long time. Roy Williams had to change scenery to win his title, maybe Barnes needs to too. And hey, after Roy left Kansas ACTUALLY won a title.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Mar 18, 2011 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Isn't
whether or not you think a coach can bring you a title the only reason you hire them at texas? I’d like to think it’s why we hire them at A&M (at least Byrne says it is : /).
And if that isn’t why you hire them and keep them on the payroll, why do you? If you think Barnes can bring you a title, by all means keep him. I don’t think he can.
Rick Barnes has been the coach at texas for 13 years now.
At Duke coach K won his first title after 11, appeared in his first champ game after 4.
At Florida Bill Donovon won his first title after 10 years, and made a championship game after 4.
At Kansas Bill Self won his first title after 5 years.
At UNC Roy Williams won his first title after 2 years.
At Michigan State Tom Izzo won his first title after 5 years.
At UConn Jim Calhoun won his first title after 13 years
At Kentucky Rick Pitino won his first title after 9 years, and Tubby Smith won his first after 2.
At Arizona Lute Olsen won his first title after 14 years, although he regularly won Pac 10 titles.
At Maryland Gary Williams won after 10 years.
So yeah, how long do you want to wait? Cuz it hasn’t happened after 13, and every coach I listed but olson won their first title at their school by then. And that’s every title winning coach since like 1996.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Mar 18, 2011 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions
You're logic is so bad it almost offends
ONE MORE TIME
by Thomas Bangalter on Mar 19, 2011 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions
There's an odd standard when it comes to college basketball
The NCAA tournament allows an enormous field of teams to have a direct and clear route to a tournament championship. Usually a #1 seed doesn’t win it, if memory serves. Sometimes the tournament champion isn’t even a conference champion. Yet the importance of making it to the final four or winning the tournament is more important than being the best team or being a perennial powerhouse. It’s probably not accurate to consider the NCAA tournament champion the national champion, as it’s more a matter of peaking at the right time than having the highest peak or best team.
I'm sorry, all white people who act black look the same to me.
-Snoop Dogg
by burntorangehorn on Mar 18, 2011 10:24 AM CDT reply actions
I agree if you want to have a true national champion
They should construct the tourney so that the top 8 seeds are grouped in a bracket (Elite 8) and play a best 3-out of 5 series. This would take out most of the variance, albeit still imperfect.
If they still wanted to maintain some of the tourney excitement. They could leave seeds 7 & 8 open and let 64 teams compete (bracket style) for the last 2 spots.
obviously this would be tough from a scheduling standpoint, but it could be done with some creativity.
No
you would have to include every conference champion, not just the top 8.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Mar 18, 2011 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions
This sounds like a defense of the BCS system
but you are correct. In a playoff tournament sometimes the best team doesn’t make it to the championship. The difficulty in playing away from home, playing a team that plays above its head or as you say playing a team that is peaking at the right time are all reasons a #1 seed/ best team during the regular season not to win. However, there are teams that consistently make it to the later rounds and whether that is due to being a basketball school, better recruiting, better coaching or whatever, 54b’s point is taken. With the resources at hand when is it suppose to happen for UT and Barnes.
by soonerspeak on Mar 18, 2011 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions
I was thinking about exactly that
Some teams seem to get to the final four fairly often. I did find this link that charts final four teams over the years, and it looks like from 2003 (Barnes’ lone appearance) to present:
1. Duke has gone twice and won once.
2. UNC has gone thrice and won twice.
3. Florida has gone twice and won twice.
4. UConn has gone twice and won once.
5. KU has gone twice and won once.
6. Syracuse has gone once and won it.
Those are the only teams that have won the tournament in that timeframe, and the following also appeared in it:
Georgia Tech X1
Ohio State X1
Michigan St. X3
Villanova X1
Louisville X1
Georgetown X1
George Mason X1
LSU X1
Illinois X1
UCLA X3
Okie St. X1
Memphis X1
WVU X1
Butler X1
Marquette X1
Texas X1
So UNC, Michigan State, and UCLA are the only teams to go three times from 2003 to present, and no team has gone four.
Anyway, I think Texas fans have reason to expect more than one final four appearance in eight years, considering the recruits, but Barnes is also responsible for the recruiting. He’s also apparently done a good job of avoiding NCAA violations, unlike UConn, Florida, and some others. This definitely does look a lot like Mack in the early 2000s.
I'm sorry, all white people who act black look the same to me.
-Snoop Dogg
by burntorangehorn on Mar 18, 2011 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions
The longer list is of those who appeared in the final four, not just in the tournament
I'm sorry, all white people who act black look the same to me.
-Snoop Dogg
by burntorangehorn on Mar 18, 2011 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions
Erm
No, it’s definitely the national champion. It isn’t about peaking at the right time. Almost all national champions and final four teams come from the top 4 seeds in the tournament. In the past 7 or 8 years I think there have been 2 not top 4 seeded teams in the final four.
This tournament seperates the best of the best, and that’s who wins. If you wanted 3 game playoffs between the teams, you could do it, but then you should only allow regular season champions and conference tournament champions to play in the tourney. Or keep the one and done model but only have it be conference champions. Who wins the title would not change very much.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Mar 18, 2011 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions
There really isn't a national championship in college basketball
The NCAA doesn’t award a national championship in it or football, as far as I know.
In the past 7 or 8 years I think there have been 2 not top 4 seeded teams in the final four.If you mean teams that weren’t #1 seeds (as the top four seeded teams are all #1 seeds), then that’s obviously way off. If you mean teams that were #5 seeds or worse, then that’s also incorrect, as there were two just last year in Michigan State and Butler, plus George Mason and Michigan State again in the same window.
The tournament doesn’t separate the best of the best, which is why we see teams like George Mason making it to the final four from time to time.
I’m a firm believer in the idea that only conference champions should be involved in anything that purports to award a national championship.
I'm sorry, all white people who act black look the same to me.
-Snoop Dogg
by burntorangehorn on Mar 18, 2011 8:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Not really sure what you're talking about or why you'd think the NCAA doesn't
So I looked it up just to make sure…
“and the National Champions also receive a gold plated wooden NCAA National Championship trophy.”
I’m a firm believer in the idea that only conference champions should be involved in anything that purports to award a national championship.
This statement is absolutely ludicrous to me. And example: Big East Team A is 34-2 on the season. Big East Team B is 35-0 on the season and beat Team A by one point both at home in the regular season during conference play and in the conference tournament final. Southland Team C is 18-15 on the season and won the Southland Conference regular season. In your hypothetical NCAA tournament scenario, Big East Team A fails to make the “playoff” while Southland Team C does?
If a conference isn't good enough that its champion shouldn't have a shot over a second-place team in another conference
Then it should be in a different division.
What’s ludicrous is giving a second-place team the chance to win a national championship over a team that beat out said second-place team for the conference championship.
I'm sorry, all white people who act black look the same to me.
-Snoop Dogg
by burntorangehorn on Mar 19, 2011 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Just so we're clear...
in GHG’s hypothetical situation, you are a firm believer that Big East team A deserves no shot at the national title?
And what happens when miraculously, a team like Texas Tech this year somehow runs through the Big 12 conference tourney unscathed and wins? They should be the lone representative of the Big 12 in the NCAA tourney?
ONE MORE TIME
by Thomas Bangalter on Mar 19, 2011 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes
And Texas Tech would enter a playoff that would include only one team from the SEC, one from the Pac 12, etc.
I'm sorry, all white people who act black look the same to me.
-Snoop Dogg
by burntorangehorn on Mar 19, 2011 8:52 PM CDT up reply actions
I dont agree at all that this should be a referendum on Rick
honestly im pretty happy with the direction is taking this program.
I know the numerous stumbles along the way last year.. those have been well documented.
But honestly Rick has done pretty much everything you could ask of him.
He has shown a willingness to learn and improve. Sure he may not be perfect but he is one of the best coaches in the country and is putting in the time and effort to lead us to the promise land. I have faith he will lead us there eventually. And even if he doesnt it wont be from a lack of effort. Sometimes the dominoes just dont fall your way.
Yes he has a major resources advantage over everyone else but its not like he has been squandering them away either.
He led us to a number 1 ranking last year.
Was a game away from the number 1 rank this year. And arguably had the best team in the country at one point.
Continually signs top recruits.
Has transformed Texas into an elite program.
by AlDe2356 on Mar 18, 2011 10:46 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree 54 100%
I don’t think there is a way to defend Rick Barnes after the Durant year and last years meltdown.
Appreciate your vote...
But I don’t want my post above to be construed as a “Fire Rick” rallying…to the contrary, I’m really just looking for a reason to believe and hoping Barnes is still the answer. Given everything he’s done for this program, he deserves to cut down the last net at least once.
Be nobody but yourself in a world that desperately wants you to be like everybody else.
he may deserve it but
I doubt it will ever happen.. I hope I’m wrong.
4 bullet points
-Dean Smith won 2 National Championships
-Michael Jordan helped win 1
-Michael Jordan played 3 years at North Carolina
-Your Durant argument against Barnes is void
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
by run Bevo run on Mar 18, 2011 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions
Different world
Dean smith won in an era when players played for 3 or 4 years. That doesn’t happen now. You have to win with what you have when you have it. When you take that one season, and combine it with all the other years they should have at least been in the sweet sixteen or elite eight or final four, yeah, it counts.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Mar 18, 2011 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions
agree
I can only imagine what a Dean Smith would’ve done with Kevin Durant!
This is the single dumbest comment ever posted on BON
Congrats!
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
by run Bevo run on Mar 18, 2011 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions
sarcasm..
What would a well respected coach have done with kevin Durant? run Bevo run!
by Longhorns84 on Mar 18, 2011 11:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Perspective
The only person that agrees with you on this board is an aggie.
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
by run Bevo run on Mar 19, 2011 7:36 AM CDT up reply actions
agree about what?
Barnes being a good coach?
by Longhorns84 on Mar 19, 2011 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions
So in your Engineering brain
Dean Smith chose not to win the championship the first 2 years he had Jordan?
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
by run Bevo run on Mar 18, 2011 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions
In my engineering brain
Dean smith coached in a world where you had 3 or 4 years to get the players you recruited to be the best you could make them or help them to be, and if you were a great coach that made your job a LOT easier, because you had more time with each player.
Today, conversely, the better a coach you are the less time you get with your players. Comparing what he did with Jordan, when every player who was one and done in todays game would play for 3 or 4 years, in an era where all the best players are done in one or two years, with what a coach has to do now is silly.
That’s why using what Dean Smith accomplished with Jordan to compare to what Rick Barnes accomplished with Kevin Durant shouldn’t be done to declare an argument void.
A better argument would be: Well, of the game transcending one and done players we’ve had at the collegiate level, only Camerlo Anthony won a title. Of course, Derrick Rose made the title game (and if memphis could shoot free throws would have won it). Blake Griffin is the remaining close example, but he had much worse talent around him than Kevin Durant.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Mar 18, 2011 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions
And the corps of my argument still stands:
You have to make due with what you have, and he had a game transcending player and failed to even make it out of the first WEEKEND of the NCAA tournament.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Mar 18, 2011 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions
"The corps of my argument" - sometimes the aggie jokes write themselves
proud to swim home
by learned hand on Mar 18, 2011 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
IMO the only thing Barnes has ever really struggled with
is bringing in a true point guard. He brought in two and each led to deep runs in the tourney. When you consider that UConn, Duke, and UNC have had off years in the past decade I do not think you can really ask for much more.
The goal is a title
If I didn’t think Mark Turgeon could get one at A&M I’d ask for him to be fired, but I think that he can. I think he absolutley would if he was at texas and could coach the recruits there (or if he’d gotten a chance to coach the houston kid who was killed in the car crash : ( ).
College basketball is about winning, not getting close, and if Barnes fails to make the final four this year, and you can hire a coach that you think COULD actually take you there, you do it.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Mar 18, 2011 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions
The goal is stability
Changing coaches is not something to take lightly. It takes years to build a program and a recruiting base. The type of stability that breeds 13 consecutive tourney appearances is hard to come by in any sport.
If we lost Barnes we would right back where we were when he started. We’d lose our pipelines to Nevada and Canada and have to maintain the ones in Texas. I like Barnes’ chances much better, especially with some point guards and shooters on the horizon.
We have a 12th man and he's Bryan Harsin
by SpiritOfTheFedora on Mar 18, 2011 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Dude
Rick Barnes has had THIRTEEN years to win a title. You know what the longest a coach has gone since winning his first title at a school has been since, say, 1996? 14 years, and that was Lute Olson.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Mar 18, 2011 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions
False.
Jim Boeheim started at Syracuse in 1976… and failed to win a title with Derrick Coleman who played all 4 years and is certainly considered one of the greatest college basketball players of all time. Give Barnes just one more year with Durant and I think we all believe a title would’ve come. But, since they didn’t win with Coleman, they should’ve gotten rid of Boeheim? Then what happens, start over? And it would’ve taken another 10 years to get to the level that he (just like Barnes) brought the program too. And then maybe Carmelo goes to St. John’s or UCONN? No, you stick with your big dog who 1. is always in competition for a conference title 2. is in contention for a national title as often as any other coach 3. NEVER misses the tourney 4. brings in ridiculous recruiting classes 5. similar to the football program, is turning the program in to a brand (albeit in Canada) 6. brings in tons of $$ when several basketball programs survive off the football program’s money.
by hayzer13 on Mar 19, 2011 12:21 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Also:
With where texas is at now, replacing him should not result in a backwards step. It should involve hiring a coach that has shown very good coaching and recruiting and a drive to win.
There are several coaches out there that texas could hire that would give them a very good chance at continuing their current level of play.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Mar 18, 2011 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions
If they fired Rick Barnes
there should be no doubt in anyone in the entire country’s minds that the best available candidate for the job would be Rick Barnes.
Roy Williams only went to two final fours (and never won it all) in his first 13 years at Kansas.
And Texas doesn’t exactly have the pedigree as Kansas. Most people seem to think he’s pretty good.
If you think Rick Barnes
can bring you a title, you keep him. I don’t think he’s a good enough coach (despite his excellent recruiting) to do it. I could be wrong, after all, I think Turgeon is a national title level coach over at A&M, and that if he was at a school like Duke or texas or UNC he would definitely win one.
But you have to be able to hire a better coach. I think that’s what would be hard to do at texas.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Mar 18, 2011 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah yeah
I know he left on his own because UNC wanted him.
But it still worked out better for both schools. Sometimes a change of scenery is required. If you could swap out Rick Barnes for, say, Matt Painter of Purdue would you do it (probably, although purdue probably wouldn’t).
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Mar 18, 2011 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions
I definitely wouldn't - although I can appreciate the success he has had, as I have family ties to Purdue.
I like Rick Barnes and I think he will win us a NC at some point. Plus, I like all of the great kids he has brought through the 40 acres.
Ok
I can understand that. It’ll definitely be interesting to see what happens with Rick Barnes, since it looks like he’ll be at tu for a long time.
Side Note: Can you imagine what purdue would be like if hummel hadn’t blown out his knee? Might be the best team in the field.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Mar 18, 2011 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions
It's certainly possible - but the other players may not have improved like they have in his absense.
Always hard to play the “what if” game like that.
in defense of Barnes
you really need strong point guard play to win it all
Augustin was a freshman the same year Durant was, iirc, and he wasn’t ready for that job yet.
Comparing Durant to Young is somewhat laughable; Young was a fourth-year junior, Durant was a true freshman. Young had a Rose Bowl experience to draw on; Durant played in one Big Dance.
I would also argue that Durant is overrated by texas fans as a college player; Michael Beasely for K-State the following year did everything Durant did, but also played defense.
Durant was a far more imposing defensive presence
Than Beasley because he was an incredible shot blocker. Beasley was decent on ball because of his athleticism and girth (for a college player), but his lack of all-around scoring made him infinitely less useful than KD. The guy got all his points through layups. Comparing the two is a huge insult to Durant.
Agree
Durant was way better. There are only 2 or three guys I can think of who were as good collegiately in the past 10 years (as one and done players). Carmelo Anthony, Blake Griffin, and Jay Williams (he was one and done wasn’t he?).
Derrick Rose gets an honorable mention.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Mar 18, 2011 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Neither Griffin
Nor Williams were one and dones. I’d assume you didn’t actually see Williams play since he was actually a Jr. before he left…But yes he was excellent.
My bad
I did watch Jay Williams play, but I was only 14 or 15 at the time, and not nearly as into college basketball as I am now.
I should have known Griffin was not a one and done, I don’t know why I thought he was. D’oh.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Mar 18, 2011 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions
VY
also had an NFL team around him to help with his success…Kevin Durant seems to be a WAY better NBA player than Beasley (only an aggy would say VY or Durant is overrated).
Augustin was a freshman
and went 1-8 with 5 assists and 6 turnovers in the loss to USC. Add that line in with the fact that JD Lewis was forced into 19 minutes of action, just goes to show that that Texas team simply was not Final Four good. Could Durant have single-handedly taken them there, sure, cause he was that good, but the above post that he had much more help than Beasley and Griffin simply isn’t true. Griffin’s couterparts were upperclassmen if I recall correctly and Beasley had Bill Walker and several other older and solid players.
Correct
The razzing of Barnes for losing to that absolutely jacked USC team in the second round is mind boggling. Yes he had possibly the best college basketball player ever, but he was surrounded by an extremely inexperienced team that had no true post players, two sub 6-foot-tall guards, and zero depth.
That game was so mismatched it’s almost hard to comprehend. Possibly even worse than the Memphis game a year later because USC actually had a legitimate post threat (Bulls forward Taj Gibson) that nobody on our team could handle. We could have played it 100 times and we MIGHT have won 15. Augustin was completely gassed by the end of the year and neither he nor 5-9 A.J. Abrams were going to stop 6-3 Gabe Pruitt or 6-6 Nick Young, who averages 17 ppg for the Wizards.
Too many facepalm-worthy posts on this thread
but 54b, just wait for Myck Kabongo. Really, he’ll take us to the promised land.
Without a legit PG this year, anything we accomplish in the tournament past the Sweet 16 is a bonus if you ask me.
by goingforthecorner on Mar 18, 2011 1:52 PM CDT reply actions
And if kabongo, like ford and DJ
can’t take you there under Rick Barnes?
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Mar 18, 2011 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not trolling
Rick Barnes is a very good college coach, and I would take what he has done at texas at A&M in a heartbeat, but that doesn’t make him title good.
Take a look at how long it’s taken every other coach who won a title to win. Lute Olson is the longest, at 14 years. If you think Rick Barnes is good enough, that’s fine, and good luck, but I’m arguing that he isn’t.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Mar 18, 2011 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions
my question to you..
..is why you care so much? If he’s not good, then that should be good for A&M. No? We already beat you regularly with our not-title-worthy coach, why would you want a “better” coach?
by vy til i die on Mar 18, 2011 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Erm...
Actually, A&M and texas have split the series every year since the 04-05 season except this one.
And I don’t particularly care about tu basketball, but I love college basketball. And I really enjoy talking about college basketball. I just don’t happen to go to any college blogs except this one and the A&M one, and practically no one on the aggie blog talks basketball.
So I get my fix here, at iamthe12thman.com, and with family. Because really, no one in Texas cares about basketball : (.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Mar 18, 2011 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions
And Rick Barnes
IS good. I’ve never said he wasn’t. We’re talking about the elite of the elite in college coaching basketball. He is still a top 25-30 coach in college basketball. Which is great. It’s not easy to be in the top 25-30 for 13 years.
He’ll have you competitive every year, and every now and then make a final four (like he should this year). But if you were Kentucky would you still have Rick Barnes as your coach?
Now, as to A&M: If you improved your coach, A&M would probably win 40 out of a hundred games over the long term, not much different than it is now, and that’s only because Turgeon is a really good coach. It wouldn’t help or hurt us, as we rarely recruit the same players. Getting recruits to come to A&M is nigh impossible, and he’s constantly impressed me with what he’s done at A&M to follow Gillispie.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Mar 18, 2011 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions
*College basketball coaching
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Mar 18, 2011 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions
But if you were Kentucky would you still have Rick Barnes as your coach?
If we were Kentucky, we’d have much higher expectations. We haven’t even won a title, so why would we fire a guy who doesn’t bring one?
by vy til i die on Mar 18, 2011 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I would consider reaching the Final Four to be the promised land
too much luck involved with matchups and hot streaks to expect a championship in college basketball. Let me know when they implement a 3/5/7 game series – then luck would be less of a factor.
by goingforthecorner on Mar 18, 2011 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions
If your goal is the final four
then Barnes can coach at texas forever, because almost all of his teams have had elite 8 talent, and he’s had 3 or 4 (including the current team) that should have made the final four.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Mar 18, 2011 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions
The current team
Is no better than Pitt, Ohio State, Kansas, and Duke. So why SHOULD they make the Final Four? That logic is pitiful. Only four teams make it every year.
Because your current team
IS better than Duke and Pitt. At least I think so. And if you look at the ESPN tournament page, more of their “experts” have tu in the final four than Duke or UConn. I think, on a per player basis (assuming that irving is not 90% or better), texas is better. I think TT would be the best post player on the floor. I think hamilton is better than any Duke gaurd except irving, and I think texas matches up well against them.
And if we had talked before the CU loss, you’d think your school was better than Duke and Pitt too.
I think if texas was swapped with florida they would roll to the final four for the same reasons.
As to OSU and Kansas: I think both teams are better, but you don’t have to play them until the final four. Given your bracket THIS year, you should make the final four. The NCAA can’t seed for crap, and you got the shaft as a 4 seed, especially with Florida as a 2 seed. The only upside was getting Duke instead of KU or OSU as your one seed. If you lose to Duke (in the sweet 16) or UConn or SDSU I think, for texas, it should be considered a dissapointment.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
by ihavethemelody on Mar 18, 2011 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions
That's your opinion
Most don’t share it, including the ESPN experts that you say picked Texas.
Your point about talking to me before the CU loss makes no sense. Am I supposed to NOT take into account any game that doesn’t prove your point? Texas showed their mortality in that last stretch against CU, Nebraska, and KSU and I’m not myopic or biased enough to not take those factors into account.
And no, I never thought Texas was better than Pitt. Nor did I think anybody in the COUNTRY was comparable to Duke with even a marginally healthy Kyrie Irving.
I personally think Texas matches up much better with Ohio State than with Duke, a factor you seem to not even remotely consider.
Another point, Hamilton is a forward, but that’s a tiny quibble. I don’t think he’s as good of an overall player as Nolan Smith because Smith is an excellent leader and defensive player.
Your point about Florida’s joke of a region is true, but we wouldn’t “roll” by Pitt. Remember, they, like…beat us last time?
So, I have a question for you tu fans
What are your expecations for the Rick Barnes era? I’ve seen a lot of people defending him, and wanting to keep him as your coach. Now I’m just wondering what your expecations are.
For example: I expect Mark Turgeon at A&M to get to the sweet sixteen every other year starting next year, with an elite 8 in year 3, and a final four in year 6, with another one every four or five years. I don’t ever expect A&M to win a title because I think we’ll always have trouble getting the best of the best recruits, and my expectations are based solely on how good a coach Turgeon is.
And if all he can do is the sweet 16 and occasional elite 8, I’m okay with that for about the next 10 years, because I don’t think A&M can ever really get a better basketball coach that would stay for the long term and I don’t think I could stomach not being able to watch us in the tournament ever again : (.
If I’m at texas (where recruiting is much easier because, well, your school is diverse, amongst other reasons like being in an actual city and stuff), then my expectations for basketball at this point are elite 8’s every other year, final fours every 4 years, and a title game every 5 or 6 years, and not losing before the sweet 16. And I would have had those expectations since 2006 or 2007.
Meat? They're made out of Meat? Meat.
Did Turgeon meet your expectations today?
"Football doesn't build character. It eliminates the weak ones." DKR
by WreckerTex on Mar 18, 2011 6:23 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
I expect trolling aTm fan to continue his insufferable meanderings.
Go away. You bore.
- follow me @ http:/twitter.com/TXStampede
I think Rick Barnes is doing great….
twenty wins or better every season save one. For a guy who began following Texas basketball in the late fifties, during the Bobby Puryear era and has followed it ever since, I think Barnes is a magician. We should be happy we have him.
Great players make great coaches, but great coaches make champions." DKR circa 1964

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