The Annual "Rick Barnes Forest For The Trees" Assessment
by DreadedOne on Mar 21, 2011 10:28 AM CDT
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PrintI'm still too hurt and angry to talk about this much just yet, but in the meantime DreadOne has presented a fair overview of the debate. You know where I stand on this, but that doesn't make me any less disappointed in what we saw yesterday, especially in the first half. Talk it out in the comments. --PB--
Last year, I think I'd finally soured on Rick Barnes' coaching abilities. I'd stated as much here on these pages. This year, I thought I I'd seen some improvement from the coach early on although I still saw some of the same weaknesses I'd always griped about (e.g., lack of in-game adjustments, poor offensive identity and flow, free throws, etc).
I got excited when we beat Kansas thinking that perhaps Rick had taken us to another level of basketball that perhaps we'd only approached when T.J. Ford led us to the Final Four. I sit here today feeling that I was wrong about that. We can say what we want but we're left with the same result. Going home.
Winning the NCAA Tournament is difficult. I will grant you that. Anyone can pretty much have an off day and be out of it in a snap. It took Jim Boeheim and Roy Williams years to finally win it. I think that the issue comes to play however that great teams have the ability to overcome those bad performances (and the bad officiating). I don't want to gripe about bad officiating or how the lights were too dim or too bright or that perhaps that the ball wasn't properly inflated. Those are just excuses. Duke found a way to win yesterday. So did UNC and Butler on Saturday. Ohio State crushed George Mason. UConn was destined to be one-and-done and yet they caught fire in the Big East Tournament because guys not named "Kemba" started to contribute in their complementary roles (many underclassmen, mind you).
So, I am left here to ask myself yet again if the Rick Barnes-Texas Basketball marriage will produce a championship. The answer is "I don't know". Rick does many things that I like: He runs what is considered a clean program. He recruits well. I think he does care about the kids that play for him. His teams make the tournament consistently. There are teams that are usually locks to make it to weekend #2 during the tournament (e.g., Duke). We aren't one of those teams despite having what I am told are elite recruiting classes year after year. At what point do we ask ourselves if this chemistry between coach and team will get us anywhere?
I hear frequently that we're "a football school" and that we are just happy to be "kind of good" at basketball. I don't buy that. I think that fans at large state universities don't want a trophy just for showing up (like kids get nowadays for playing soccer in second grade). We don't show up to tournaments content that we simply made it. We want to be competitive and we want to show pride.
I worry frequently that I am simply down on the coach much like people were down on Mack Brown before he won a championship. The fact is though that Mack Brown was at least consistent in his post-season appearances. Rick Barnes' teams have never won the Big 12 Tournament. He simply hasn't been impressive as a post-season coach. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt....so I decided to delve a little deeper into some records of other coaches and see how Rick compares.
- Coach A- 9 NCAA appearances, 5 beyond second round, 3 Final Fours, No championships
- Coach B- 4 NCAA apearances, 2 beyond second round, 1 Final Four, No championships
- Coach C- 8 NCAA appearances, 3 beyond second round, No Final Fours
- Coach D- 13 NCAA appearances, 5 beyond second round, 1 Final Four, No championships
- Coach E- 16 NCAA appearances, 11 beyond second round, 3 Final Fours, 2 Championships
- Coach F- 12 NCAA appearances, 4 beyond second round, No Final Fours
- Coach G- 21 NCAA appearances, 14 beyond second round, 7 Final Fours, 2 Championships
- Coach H- 10 NCAA appearances, 3 beyond second round, No Final Fours
There is a little bit of a cross-section here and I did choose them somewhat at random.
Coach A is someone that I didn't realize had this type of tournament efficiency. Yes, he's not won a championship but one third of his appearances (his team is still alive this year) have resulted in the Final Four. That's Ben Howland of UCLA. Coaches E and G have the most longevity on this list and they make it past the first weekend around 70% of the time. Coach E is boom or bust it seems beyond that with 2 of 3 Final Fours resulting in a championship; That's Connecticut's Jim Calhoun. Coach G is UNC's Roy Williams, who couldn't get over the hump until he changed schools.
Coach F is a guy who's always the hotly rumored guy to go to the next big-time opening. His record is striking to me in it's LACK of progress beyond the first two rounds and a lack of a Final Four. Similar percentage-wise to Rick Barnes, this is Gonzaga's Mark Few. Coach C is also someone whose name I've heard thrown around for a move and he's Jamie Dixon of Pitt whos' built himself a strong team this year but bowed out over the weekend. Coach B is another hot prospect, who IS the hot coach-du-jour. That's Butler's Brad Stevens. Remarkable success early in his career and, at least to this observer, it doesn't seem over-hyped.
That leaves us Coach H and with Coach D, who is obviously our own Rick Barnes. I don't know if we can read any more into his record than we already have. He seems to carry a reputation for poor in-game management and his teams seem to have limited or no offensive identity. Offensive identity was never a problem for Coach H and I included him only for my own personal interest. I won't say that he was a better coach than Rick Barnes but it's an obvious leap to compare him to his predecessor, Tom Penders. Penders made it to the Sweet Sixteen and beyond 25% of the time compared to Rick Barnes' 38%. The samples are small so I don't know if any of these statistics can be interpreted with any certainty but those are the facts. Coach Barnes has given us a 50% improvement in the final result. Obviously, he was an upgrade in the off-the-court aspects over Penders but I defy anyone to show me where Penders' "Runnin' Horns" weren't fun to watch. Did Penders get more out of his teams than Barnes gets out of his? (I am not being rhetorical in this. I am really asking you.)
The obvious interpretation here is that I don't think Rick Barnes is a good coach and I am not going to answer that except to say that he is what his record implies. The bigger question though is the same one that I've always applied to Mack Brown (and that Nebraska should have applied to Frank Solich): "Who are you going to get that's better and for what degree of improvement?".
As you can see, even the good coaches do struggle at times to get deep into the tournament. The fact is that if we can't identify what Rick Barnes is definitely poor at doing and then find someone who is demonstrably better at that skill than Rick...then I say you can't even consider getting rid of him.
Those are just a few thoughts. I don't profess to be a basketball expert but I think that the underachievement in this team is maddening when you live in Big East country which is a tremendously over-hyped conference but with strong coaching. I don't see Rick Barnes as being as strong of a coach as his fans will suggest but I thought yesterday was a better coaching job than I've seen out of him in a long time. Yes, he's slow to call timeouts when the momentum is slipping away. Yes, he seems to fuss with the lineups ad nauseam. Yes, we got hosed by the officiating but the officiating allowed us back into the game too. Yesterday was not on Rick in my eyes, but the hard question needs to be asked even if just rhetorically. Texas Athletics is a big forest and we can't lose sight of that forest through for the trees.
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good post....
I think Barnes isn’t going anywhere since the powers that be are completely happy with him. Having said that, if Hamilton and Tristan return next season…..there is going to be enourmous pressure on Barnes next year to get to the Final Four. He will need to deliver or finally be officially on the hot seat.
His teams of late have shown the same problem of fading out in late February and March…my guess is the continual lack of depth (inflamed by early departures) is catching up with them.
If both return, we should be favored to cut down the nets....
It’s time for Rick to start delivering real results again.
This means Big 12 regular season championships, Sweet 16s, Elite 8s, and Final Fours.
"Football's so important in Texas. On the West Coast, it's a social. On the East Coast, it's a culture. Here, it's a religion."
-- Major Applewhite
Good post
I’m still too hurt and angry to talk about it much right now, but I appreciate your taking the time to present the debate in a fair and objective manner. This can lead to good discussion. Which is great.
Thanks.
You ain't hurt...
Ditto that.
From seeing the title of the post, I thought it was just another rip on Coach Barnes. But you did a good job in presentation DreadedOne and it was very objective. Thanks for the non-negativity.
I still keep coming back to team leaders & talents leaving early prior to their senior year for the biggest reason why Barnes is struggling to win titles. Short of an ineffective offensive system, I think he’s so good in everything else he does. And I think the offense would be much better if the players would just stay longer and become very good at it. That being said, I think next year will go a long ways in determing Rick’s legacy. I simply can’t remember the last time that the biggest talents on the team were all returning and the incoming recruiting class was loaded. Talent will not be the problem next year. Performance and chemistry MUST come through. I believe they will.
It's not about firing Rick Barnes, it's about drawing a line and accountability
Can certainly appreciate the post and feel like I wrote the prequel a few days ago…unfortunately, people took at as a "fire Coach Barnes rally" and used it as an excuse to grind axes
But you won’t find one mention in that post or anywhere else from me that supports getting rid of Barnes. Mine was more of a selfish pursuit to understand better how to set my expectations and I think a lot of Longhorns fans are in the same boat, particularly those of us that view UT thru the football prism…and know that it’s now 4 months since football season and we’re just now starting to dial back the daily whippings of Mack Brown. Chances are good we’ll move on to UT baseball or whatever else passes the time before football season within the next two days and won’t hear another word about UT basketball until next December.
So what do we have the right to expect given all the factors that govern college basketball at UT?
I and many Longhorns fans like me need a more convincing argument to invest in basketball the emotional equivalent to what we’ve invested in football. It has to be more than, "hey, it’s your school, basketball’s a crap shoot, gotta love it." And while you can certainly make the argument that the often abusive love-hate relationship we have with football is dysfunctional, at least we know that if we put our hearts on the line (and money in the foundation coffers), that when expectations aren’t met like going 5-7, we will get our pound of Greg Davis’ fleshy ass.
I don’t want Barnes’ head on a platter, but right or wrong, I do want him and the Longhorns basketball team to make me a promise to implement a strategy that mitigates those factors beyond our control like refs and seeding and having to rely on one guy for the last 16 minutes of a game.
And I want people who know better than I to help me understand how strong that promise should be. Without it, we’ll just keep doing this year after year until Barnes finally catches lightning in a bottle or moves on.
That may be good enough for some, but for me, I’d rather just stick with football and spare myself the pain. One heartbreak a year is more than enough.
Be nobody but yourself in a world that desperately wants you to be like everybody else.
by 54b on Mar 21, 2011 12:27 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Straight from the horses mouth
Investing a lot of emotional energy into the sporting pursuits of 18-21 year olds is like playing slot machines. You drop the money in, pull the one armed bandit, and you hope the trophies and banners fall into your drop bucket.
There has to be some worth to the pursuit of achieving the lofty heights of championships. That is why they play. We invest because why? We live vicariously through these youths. In our own adult way a chance to be part of the pursuit. When the statement rolls out and there is no dividend, we strike the torches? Is that the solution?
No one is above reproach when minimum goals are not achieved. There should be accountability. But is the coach and the players accountable for not winning championships? Hardly. They are accountable for doing their best within the framework of their capabilities. Honestly. Through hard work.
We follow these story lines for better or worse. Rick is close to cracking the glass ceiling.
Let me buy you a new pair of tempered shades.
- follow me @ http:/twitter.com/TXStampede
by TXStampede on Mar 21, 2011 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, but at least I know the difference between when I've won and lost on a slot machine
With UT Basketball, it’s like playing 10 slot machines at once, winning some, losing on some, but not ever knowing whether you’re truly up or down, only when you’re flat broke.
Be nobody but yourself in a world that desperately wants you to be like everybody else.
+1
These are teenagers,not pro’s. Having raised 2 boys past that point I can sympathize with the point about trying to live vicariously through their on field accomplishments.If you get too emotionally invested best have a the bottle handy.There is an outlet handy for this level of criticism, its called the NBA.
Agreed
I follow all of the sports but I’m addicted to one and only one. I watch the others, I live for football. Did you know it’s just 13 days til the Spring game and 166 days til the Rice game? Not that I’m counting or anything.
There is not a situation or individual that cannot be improved by the addition of chocolate.
by OnMySignal on Mar 21, 2011 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe Barnes needs a new Offensive Coordinator
We could hire away the Oakland assistant and implement their offense, I thought they were pretty solid offensively.
I still don’t know how we committed a turnover, allowed an easy bucket, committed a foul and threw up an air ball all in the span of 9.8 seconds. It doesn’t wreak of great coaching but on the other hand there were a lot of freshmen and sophs making those mistakes.
We have a 12th man and he's Bryan Harsin
by SpiritOfTheFedora on Mar 21, 2011 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions
I won't weigh in about Barnes' overall career performance, but...
… I would not characterize this year’s team as “underachieving”. Given what most expected of this team, I would say they way exceeded expectations.
I think a lot of us have forgotten that this was a team that started the season ranked 25th
and beat Kansas on it’s home court.
"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.
And were consensus #1 for a couple of days
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
I guess it depends on what you call success.
Personally, I consider any basketball season a resounding success if the team makes it to the Sweet 16.
Barnes has accomplished that feat 5 times in the last 10 years. This year would have – and should have – been 6 times.
How many other active coaches have a streak like that going? Maybe 3? (Duke, Carolina, Kansas)
Watch out, I bite.
by EddieTheAlbinoSquirrel on Mar 21, 2011 12:40 PM CDT reply actions
And for the record, the phrase is commonly known as ...
… can’t see the forest FOR the trees.
Watch out, I bite.
by EddieTheAlbinoSquirrel on Mar 21, 2011 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Now the title looks wishy-washy
Since this post is promoted globally given the front page bump, let me offer a friendly suggestion. Pick one or the other but not both.
- follow me @ http:/twitter.com/TXStampede
Great take
And I think DreadedOne knows the phrase. He’s coming from a different angle.
- follow me @ http:/twitter.com/TXStampede
Why set the bar so low?
Would we consider the football team and Mack Brown a “resounding success” merely to finish in the top 16 each year? Would you consider the baseball team and Augie as a “resounding success” merely to make it to the regionals?
"Only angry people win football games." --DKR
Great, great post
You may not consider yourself a basketball guy, but that was extremely well written, well researched, and well thought out.
I don’t agree that Rick did a good job coaching yesterday, in fact I feel quite the opposite. I do agree that he grew as a coach this year, but I feel like he slipped into a few old bad habits at the end of the year with not encouraging movement on offense, having minimal floor spacing, and putting in some absolutely terrible, TERRIBLE player combinations.
Would you have the same assessment of Barnes if we granted the time out on the inbound
and came all the way back after the abysmal 1st half performance?
His 2nd team players were not consistent enough for him to succeed with player combinations.
- follow me @ http:/twitter.com/TXStampede
If you read the thread
That PB put up about the ref scamming us, you’ll see I was defending Barnes/Hamilton for that TO. So no, that wouldn’t change my opinion. I believe he is partially responsible for that first-half performance, so that wouldn’t absolve him. I am not results oriented.
The 2nd team players are not consistent at all, completely agree. That’s why he should not play them all at the same time. No need, when you aren’t in foul trouble, to have Wang AND Hill in at the same time. Need some scoring up front. Same thing with when he had Lucas and Balbay as the backcourt. Unacceptable.
No doubt
Barnes constantly experimented with matchups but given the lack of talent, he was trying any type of spark he could find. Interesting that Hill did not get much play in the tourney. His poor performance leading up to post season hurt the team. Maybe as much as Hill.
I know you are objective in your assessment of Barnes. I don’t know I blame him for Tristan not working hard to earn his space down low. Rick knew we needed his pivot play to get our offense gelling. We did that to start the game. Give credit to Zona for doubling down and asking us to beat them from outside. It almost worked.
- follow me @ http:/twitter.com/TXStampede
I definitely
Don’t blame him if he thought TT wasn’t working hard enough, but even when he got the ball, we had no counter planned for the double team. Instead we just went away from him completely and that neutralized our decided advantage inside. If they double from the post, Johnson needs to dive to the hoop. If they double from the opposite wing, the guard needs to dive or Barnes needs to tell TT to skip the ball across the court. If they double from the near wing, that guard needs to cut to the basket or relocate for a wide-open three. But instead we just gave up and handed the keys to JCB. It almost worked, but I think we win that game handily if we can get Tristan even mildly involved.
I'll say this again....I think Rick Barnes is best basketball coach
I’ve ever seen at Texas….by orders of magnitude. Plus he gets us to the tournament and that gives us an opportunity to win a championship. And, this year nobody really thought we’d have been this good. I think we exceeded expectations! So, talking about getting rid of him is misguided in my mind.
Next year if TT and Hamilton return along with the new freshman class we should have annother opportunity. I don’t know whether we’ll win it or not but I think we should have a great chance.
Hook ’em
Great players make great coaches, but great coaches make champions." DKR circa 1964
And there in lies the rub
If TT and Hamilton return next year…if that happens, then the argument that college basketball teams are too ephemeral and every team is like starting over again gets blown out of the water. And I’d love to see it too.
But if they do leave, it’s really hard not to feel like you’re starting all over again.
“Oh but wait, we have Kabongo coming in and he pisses excellence.”
Great, but how is that different than having Kevin Durant.
And on it goes. The only constant is Barnes and while he’s obviously better than any other coach UT has had, I think it’s fair to ask if he’s hit his ceiling here? If not, great, but somebody help us define the ceiling and if what it takes to win the title are factors truly out of his control, then let’s say that too and just admit that “we’re a football school that wouldn’t mind making some headlines in b-ball to every once in a while.”
Be nobody but yourself in a world that desperately wants you to be like everybody else.
This is consistently frustrating to me...
The idea that we always seem to have some “wunderkind” coming in “next year” and yet next year comes and we’re missing someone who couldn’t resist the temptation to move on. The year after PJ Tucker left…we were poor rebounding the ball and he went on to dominate the Ukranian League.
I admit that freely.
Disciplina Praesidium Civitatis.
Not sure what you really want from basketball in general Cory
Nobody is that consistent, it’s just the nature of hoops. Just a few years ago people were on Coach K for not recruiting good enough players. COACH K. Roy Williams couldn’t even win the NIT last year, imagine the pressure from that from UNC fans. Basketball is not like football in that the better teams have so much more talent or almost always win big games. That’s just how it is and you aren’t going to get a better holistic answer, though I know you sure are searching for it.
I want to know that they care about winning as much as I do and not just about making money.
There, I said it, you may bill me $150 for the hour.
Be nobody but yourself in a world that desperately wants you to be like everybody else.
Well
I definitely think Barnes cares about winning. I can’t imagine a basketball coach that doesn’t. Just because he hasn’t had the success you crave doesn’t mean he doesn’t care. I can buy the “he’s not good enough” argument, but in no way to I give any credence to a notion of his being apathetic or not caring as much as you do.
"They" was the Athletic Department, not Barnes and the players.
Should have explained that.
Not questioning Barnes’ or the players’ heart whatsoever.
Be nobody but yourself in a world that desperately wants you to be like everybody else.
Keep in mind that even with our player retention problem we seem to always have a
twenty plus win year and surely that’s attributable to Barnes.
If anyone wants to change coaches they should take a quick look at our women’s team. We got Gail G. from Duke and we haven’t had any Dukish like years since she got here.
By the way the retention problem isn’t unique to Texas.; its every in the top echelons of college basketball.
Izzo up Michigan State seems to think the best approach to recruiting is get a lot of three and half to four star players that you can keep under the porch for a while. He gets to the tourney pretty regular and they love him up there and I don’t think he has won a championship lately although unlike Barnes he has won it.
Great players make great coaches, but great coaches make champions." DKR circa 1964
"Oh but wait, we have Kabongo coming in and he pisses excellence."
Great, but how is that different than having Kevin Durant.
It’s totally different actually. For one, PG is the most important position in college basketball by far, and not having acceptable PG play the primary reason we haven’t reached the Sweet 16 in 3 straight years.
If Thompson and Hamilton return, this will be the best team Barnes has EVER had on paper. With a legit PG, it will be much harder to scheme against us.
by goingforthecorner on Mar 21, 2011 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions
If Hamilton comes back
I would absolutely KILL to be a fly on the wall in Denton-Cooley for summer workouts. I hear the guys absolutely go after each other in those puppies.
Follow me on Twitter @GoHornsGo90
Barnes teams = long on talent, far from complete
For better or worse, Rick Barnes has done a phenomenal job of attracting top-flight talent to Texas. No other coach at Texas can say that for as long a period of time as Barnes can. However, the abundance of talent has come at the expense of a complete team. Texas desperately needs spot-up, outside shooting — a skill that you readily find on the benches of Duke, Kansas, up and down the big east, all over the mid-majors and, apparently, at Arizona.
There’s a reason why its not called the “inside/inside” game. Without an “inside/outside” game, we will be vulnerable to teams that play above average defense. Our spacing in the first half was horrible, and in the second half we abandoned any semblance of an offense for the J’Covan Brown solo show.
Regardless of what happens with Tristan or Jordan this offseason, we will probably be right back in the thick of things in what will be a very weak conference next year and once again we will be able to say that Barnes has led another team to the tournament and won another first round game. Not bad for a football school.
Good observations
There’s a reason why its not called the "inside/inside" game. Without an "inside/outside" game, we will be vulnerable to teams that play above average defense. Our spacing in the first half was horrible, and in the second half we abandoned any semblance of an offense for the J’Covan Brown solo show.
It was indeed a J’Covan Brown solo show, which was very entertaining, but it is disappointing and somewhat frightening that we had to resort to essentially no game plan. Arizona was able to shut down TT way too easily. And mid-game is not the time to have to grasp at new formations. We were befuddled and outplayed by their bench, for God’s sake.
by SchruteFarm on Mar 21, 2011 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Absolutely....
…the man has accomplished more than all his predecessors….combined! Rick Barnes has out performed all previous Texas’ basketball coaches combined. Prior to Rick’s arrival, 4 consecutive trips to the NCAA Tournament was school record. Rick has taken us to 13 consecutive trips to the NCAA Tournament!
In Barnes’ 12 seasons at UT (this being the 13th), a grand total of 8 HCs have won the national championship. Donovan(2), Calhoun(2), Krzyzewski(2), Williams(2), Izzo, Boeheim and Self make the list. If Rick is the country’s #9, then I can certainly live with that. Personally, Rick Barnes has 16 consecutive trips to the NCAA Tourney. Not many can replicate it.
--- All roads to the Big-XII Championship lead through OU/RRS. It's not just another game! We're all about championships here. ---
Next year will be my measuring stick
One of the larger complaints about Rick Barnes is his struggle to put together an offense without an elite point guard. This year he went to the efforts to implement a true offensive system that was less dependent on a great point guard. Regardless of whether Tristan Thompson or Jordan Hamilton come back, the question for me will be whether he will continue his development on the offensive side of things. Will he run a true offensive system (like he started implementing this season) that becomes elite with a great point guard (namely Myck Kabongo)? Or will he scrap it and revert to his old ways of everyone standing around waiting for something to happen now that he has his point guard? Will Rick Barnes show continued improvement as a coach or was last summer’s look in the mirror a one-time thing?
The answers to those questions will dictate for me how to set my expectations for Basketball at Texas under Rick Barnes.
This is a damn good question.
Really, a two-parter:
1) will Rick Barnes make another deep assessment and learn from his – and his team’s – mistakes and flaws?
2) will he continue to implement the Jazz offense, which not only affects next year but the foreseeable future? The new offense was a fix for serious problem to get them to the upper level.
Both questions have implications for the long term and perhaps even for the Athletic Department’s assessment of him. Remember, Penders was being pushed out his whole last season…the final events were just a ‘reasonable’ means of getting rid of him (see Burned Orange by K. Dalton). At some point the AD will take the long view and ask the same questions we are here.
Analysis is missing one thing- seasons
You’re missing the top of the funnel, which is seasons. How many of these coaches’ teams make the tourney is an important factor as well. You don’t want a coach who only make the tourney when his team is considered “elite” and not just good.
by Vince Young Sausage on Mar 21, 2011 1:20 PM CDT reply actions
Fair enough...
It’s a fair point you make considering that Calhoun has had many NIT years (like last year) and recently had a year (2006) where he made no tourney at all.
Barnes has no excuses next year with an elite PG recruit coming in.
If having an elite PG is where Barnes peaks, he better hit his peak with Kabongo or else I think our school should look elsewhere (unless we keep recruiting elite PGs, which we should be doing).
"Football's so important in Texas. On the West Coast, it's a social. On the East Coast, it's a culture. Here, it's a religion."
-- Major Applewhite
Hopefully
L.J. Rose and Andrew Harrison on the way in the following two years :)
Follow me on Twitter @GoHornsGo90
Two points
What do you value most? Final Fours and championships OR making the tournament every year? I’d rather have the former than the latter even if does include a few lean years or rebuilding a la Florida or UConn.
Why do we keep comparing Barnes to Penders? Penders coached in the dying days of the SWC when the league was the basketball equivalent to C-USA (especially once Arkansas departed). Barnes coaches in one of the top 3-4 basketball conferences in the country with many more resources than Penders ever had. Barnes is the first and thus far only coach Texas has had to coach in this “new” environment. Given the virtually unlimited resources at this time with which to work, I believe there are a number of coaches out there (who can realistically be hired) that can get better results than Barnes.
by DoubleB on Mar 21, 2011 1:51 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Names?
Ill free admit I know way too little about the college basketball landscape.Ive really only started to get into college ball the past few years.
Don't have any
Can the guy at Butler do it? I don’t know. That’s why AD’s are paid big money.
And maybe I’m wrong and Barnes is close to maximizing UT’s basketball success. I just don’t think that’s the case.
Penders coached Texas for two years in the Big XII - 96-97 and 97-98.
Barnes’ first season was 98-99.
If you’ll remember, there was a clean sweep of the three major mens sports with Mack Brown, Barnes and Augie all hired in a relatively short span.
That kind of misses my main point
but in any case, Penders took his 1st Big XII team to the Sweet 16 before the 97-98 debacle.
Why not value both Final 4s, Championships and Tournament appearances?
I would rather build a model similar to Kansas and Duke. They oscillate between good to great almost every year and I think Barnes has done well to lay that type of foundation.
Is he still missing the crown jewel? Yes but that does not mean he won’t add it in the next 5 years.
This would be great but our model isn't nearly as strong as KU or Duke yet (after 13 years of trying).
Another fact that people ignore is that Rick coached at decent programs (Clemson & Providence I believe) for like 12 years before he joined Texas.
He has 25 years of D1 coaching experience without an appearance in a championship game. That’s a long time to have never reached the pinnacle of your profession.
Will it take him 30 years? 35 years? Never?
Who knows.
How often
Do you see Clemson or Providence-level programs getting to the National Title? Butler and…
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In the last 30 years
Georgia Tech, Memphis, Seton Hall, Oklahoma, Utah, Houston, and NC State
Memphis
Cheated. Houston had Drexler and Hakeem and was elite at the time. OU is a far more historic basketball program than Providence or Clemson. Utah had Van Horn and Miller. The others I’ll give you, but come on…Georgia Tech? Would you trade one title run and a championship spanking from UConn for almost never making the tourney at all? I wouldn’t.
Follow me on Twitter @GoHornsGo90
I know what you're saying but
the argument is circular. Elite coaches build elite programs. Not the other way around. The best coaches make programs elite and win championships.
Duke was built by Coach K. UCLA by Wooden. Mich St by Izzo etc.
Rick has built Texas up better than his predecessor but he hasn’t won a natty nor been to a championship so he’s a tier 2 coach in my opinion.
True
Can’t argue with the point about elite coaches building elite programs.
Follow me on Twitter @GoHornsGo90
ok then...
who’s in Tier 1? And how do we get them here?
And which of those Tier 1 coaches were lambasted for not being good enough prior to winning their natty? Truth is, Barnes is not perfect. But he’s not nearly as horrible as some tend to believe. Can he make the jump to Tier 1? I don’t know. But I think he’s earned a little more leeway than some give him.
That is the problem
Texas is not an attractive enough coaching position to attract any of the guys who are clearly superior to Barnes. Bill Self being the guy I’d really want given he is still relatively young.
Thus, we have two options…
A) Hope Barnes hasn’t peaked yet and will eventually bring Texas a title.
B) Take a risk on an up and coming yet mostly unproven young gun…much like Barnes was 13 years ago.
If Barnes does not take us to the Final Four in the next 2 years with Kabongo here then I like option B.
Agree, Texas had an explosion of resources in the past decade
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: “We’re Texas.” Basketball is second to football and maybe even behind baseball here, but the point is, our facilities and financial state have improved tremendously in the past 12 years. Due to that, more and more recruits will want to come to Texas. Getting Durant here was gold, and his legacy will continue to reap rewards. Same with other NBA guys, including future NBA-er TT, who was no doubt a positive draw for fellow Canadian Kabongo.
Can we attribute ALL, most, or just some of the recruiting success to Rick Barnes? What have recruits’ comments implied? Serious question, I’d really like to know.
I think we can pretty much attribute all of the recruiting success to Barnes
Prior to Rick Barnes, Texas had never recruited anywhere close to the current level of talent. Not even close. How many high school All-Americans did Texas recruit in school history, prior to Barnes’ arrival? (I think there were two, but I can only remember one by name, Kris Clack.)
Penders was a decent recruiter, and he knew how to recruit to his system. But Penders was only going after a high school All-American if they fell into his lap, like Clack did.
Not all Barnes
Rodney Terry and Russell Springmann are known as two of the best recruiters in college basketball and should get more credit in that regard.
Follow me on Twitter @GoHornsGo90
That is fair
But they are a part of Barnes’ program. So they deserve credit, but their successes have ultimately come under Barnes’, and not Tom Penders’, watch.
That's fine
But your logic also precludes a way in which you could answer the question without giving basically all the props to Barnes, which wasn’t really SchruteFarm’s point.
Follow me on Twitter @GoHornsGo90
I guess it is a different interpretation of the question
I interpreted as a Barnes vs. “We’re Texas” thing. I don’t think that “We’re Texas” means very much in basketball recruiting.
But Barnes assistants have done a fine job with recruiting. I won’t dispute that.
Oh
Well I definitely agree it has little to do with the name on the front of the jersey like football recruiting does.
Follow me on Twitter @GoHornsGo90
Different schools but similar concept
Players will of course choose to go where they will experience the best coaching and development for the NBA. Obviously that is perceived currently to be Duke, UNC, Kentucky, Kansas, with most of their perception driven by the quality of the coach (and to some extent other factors such as Michael Jordan).
I believe which programs those are can and does change over time. As mentioned below, elite coaches can build elite programs. And abundant resources definitely also helps. The resources (facilities, money, education, Austin) is what I meant by “We’re Texas,” not the name.
Was Ohio State always attractive for basketball? Florida? Being second in the Big-12 is attractive enough to most recruits to give us consideration. It’s not as if we are at the bottom or even the middle of the pack. Just a little traction, such as winning enough to make it to the Final Four or Elite Eight, can go a long way. That’s why not being able to say we made it to the Sweet 16 this year bites.
Add in NBA success, which breeds adoring young fans. Our recruiting supposedly picked up tremendously after TJ Ford, and I’m sure Durant will be an inspiration for years to come, perhaps not unlike the effect that Michael Jordan had on UNC.
Re: H.S. All-Americans
I believe Mihm and Axtell were recruited by Penders as well. It sure was hard watching that Fab Five documentary, seeing King and Jackson coming from Texas. Especially Jackson being from Austin. Just a sign of the times. Texas was probably not even on their radar at that time.
Do not be distracted by what you see, but be transformed by what you believe.
Were Axtell and Mihm HS All-Americans?
Didn’t remember them as HS All-Americans, and can’t find much information on them. Could just be my memory failing me. (Clack was definately a McDonald’s All-American.)
They were local kids (from Westlake HS). At one point, the starting lineup of the Horns featured four kids from the Austin area (Clack, Mihm, Axtell, and Chico Vasquez). Not that I have a point to this.
Mihm was a big-time recruit
Not quite as high as Buckman and not a McDonald’s AA, but still pretty high.
Follow me on Twitter @GoHornsGo90
by GoHornsGo90 on Mar 22, 2011 11:23 PM CDT up reply actions
He was. That class was rated a Top 10 class
part due to the strength in the national ratings of 6-9 Lamar Wright. However, Penders dismissed Wright from the team two months before the start of the season because he was continually late for class, for meetings and workouts. He was warned and warned and still was late.
Penders would later remind people of the discipline and principle involved in suspending and dismissing Wright when the Luke Axtell saga unfolded later that year.
I think the most you can ask for
is the opportunity to get to the tournament and have a team that is capable of winning it all. When I say capable, I mean a team that won’t be overly mismatched against any of the other teams in the tournament.
I think you can say that about this year’s team. Sure they wouldn’t have the favorite over teams like Ohio St., Duke or Kansas, but no one would have questioned your sanity if you picked Texas to win a game versus one of those teams.
You can’t evaluate the success of a coach based only upon his tournament success. There is just too much luck involved once you get in. Look at this year’s Kansas team that can make the Final Four without playing a team seeded higher than 9. Using the tournament success criteria this would have to be considered his second best team in the Bill Self era. I don’t view this Kansas team as the 2nd best in the Self era, and I certainly don’t think Kansas fans would either.
Like many, its hard to discuss the dissappointing outcome of possibly the most promising basketball season in school history. I will do my best and then I've gotta let this go.
After last seasons meltdown I was upset but figured it was inevitable due to a lack of team chemistry. If I remember correctly, the early exit against Wake Forest was a massive underachievement in that Wake Forest was a mediocre team and we simply pissed the game away down the stretch.
This season was much different. Although Avery Bradley leaving for the NBA and Varez Ward transferring did not help our cause, this team had plenty of talent and team chemistry to make a run. Also, to help our cause, no team in D1 basketball seemed to have a dominating advantage this year.
Losing to Colorado, Nebraska, and Kansas State late in the season hurt us dearly; HOWEVER, we did end up as #8 overall in the AP Poll. The 4seed we received from the NCAA committee was completely unjustifiable. We were a 2 seed. Florida received the 2seed which we rightly deserved.
As a result, we were put into a tougher spot bracket-wise playing a conference champ in Oakland in round 1, the Pac-10 champ in round 2, and potentially the ACC champ in round 3.
The ending of last night’s game was the cherry on top for me. The Pac-10 official clearly called the 5 second violation preemptively. In fact, it was called knee jerk reaction to Joseph calling the timeout which can clearly be seen in the replay.
Did Texas play well last night? No. Did they fight as a team and show a lot of heart? Definitely. Did they deserve to win the game? Yes. Which team has a better chance against Duke on Thursday? Texas did.
Rick Barnes has done a great job of recruiting good kids with good character from all over the country and beyond. Overall, he is a stand-up guy with a lot of class and dignity. Sometimes, I too am irked by him sitting on his hands at times, but I wouldn’t trade him for most D1 coaches out there who have much less integrity and class.
Unfortunately, the NCAA tournament and the sport of basketball in general are so damn frustrating with so many controversial endings due to a lack of officiating consistency. As a result, only the team who gets shafted crys foul and it makes that team look like sore losers in many eyes. What’s done is done at this point. Hopefully, officating of college basketball will improve eventually, but I’m not gonna hold my breath. The sport would be so much more fulfilling if the NCAA would step in and revamp the rule book. But once again, after the debacle with Cam Newton, I’m not holding my breath. If it dosen’t make more money, it’s just not of much importance. Welcome to the wide world of sports. Thanks ESPN, CBS, TNT, TBS, TruTV, etc. on basically showing you couldn’t give a flying fuck on justifying a fair outcome to a sporting event.
"I asked Darrell Royal, the coach of the Texas Longhorns, why he didn’t recruit me and he said: "Well, Walt, we took a look at you and you weren’t any good.
- Walt Garrison
Officials 5 second call?
I admit to not knowing much about hoops, but can you tell me how or why a Pac-10 ref was allowed to call this game? After reading this, now I’m really pissed!!!
by Burnedsince61 on Mar 22, 2011 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions
I am still loving the fact that Texas is now a National player
Growing up we were so regional and a gimmicky school with Penders as the Head Coach, the “Running Horns”.
Now we have a recognized identity as a solid and physical defensive team thanks to Barnes which has helped keep us in or near the Top 25 and often Top 10. Prior to his arrival a National Title was never even part of the conversation and now its every few years which is pretty special.
Now the biggest criticism of Barnes has always been on the offensive end because we have often been prone to droughts. I would love to see him have more specific plays ala Roy Williams, Izzo, and Self to get us cheap buckets of in-bounds, timeouts or out of the half.
Barnes to his credit is starting to head that direction but I think it will take more time to complete the transformation. I also love that he puts the best interests of his players first in the off-season, though so may be upset about that I think it is creepy and unethical to try to “leech success” out of 18-21 year olds when they have the opportunity of a lifetime (i.e. Bob Stoops).
Does Barnes deserve criticism? Certainly. Does he deserve the benefit of the doubt and a continued chance to grow and improve? Absolutely.
The future is still bright and remember how worried many of us were when we thought Kentucky was going to hire Barnes away! I love his Loyalty to the team and the University and I understand it takes time and good fortune to when a National Title in Men’s Basketball
Unconditional Love
At lest someone we know feels this way…..
@KDthunderup (Kevin Durant)
I know my ‘horns lost, but I still bleed burnt orange! Dropped the Texas #KDIII’s to represent (at Footlocker).
- follow me @ http:/twitter.com/TXStampede
...or
you can have a pair of these sweet baby Hookem KDIII’s.
- follow me @ http:/twitter.com/TXStampede
If Durant really wants to make me feel better
He can counsel Tristan and Jordan on the consequences of leaving school early.
Perhaps KD regrets his and one and done departure and can convey that sentiment?
The NBA will always be there for those guys but glory in college hoops is only available once in a lifetime.
A Must Read
http://www.nesn.com/2011/03/officials-make-march-madness-unbearable-change-needed.html
"I asked Darrell Royal, the coach of the Texas Longhorns, why he didn’t recruit me and he said: "Well, Walt, we took a look at you and you weren’t any good.
- Walt Garrison
by 512 on Mar 21, 2011 2:25 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Thanks for posting
I don’t understand the controversy on the Butler/Pitt game. Both were obvious, obvious fouls and completely incompetent plays by the players. It doesn’t matter if they should have affected the game or not, they still committed the foul.
Follow me on Twitter @GoHornsGo90
I think the general point is the lack of consistency across the board.
Are we going to let fouls go in the closing seconds of a close game so that free throws do not determine the outcome, OR are we going to call any legitimate foul up until the clock hits 0.0??? Make a decision.
"I asked Darrell Royal, the coach of the Texas Longhorns, why he didn’t recruit me and he said: "Well, Walt, we took a look at you and you weren’t any good.
- Walt Garrison
by 512 on Mar 21, 2011 2:38 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Let's not forget the Oakland game
Refs actually added 0.6 seconds back to the clock in a game that was already decided on the scoreboard … just so Oakland could shoot freethrows.
But then in Texas’ very next game, there is some bias against allowing legit freethrows? I call bull.
Watch out, I bite.
by EddieTheAlbinoSquirrel on Mar 21, 2011 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Rick Barnes Stays - Because He is Simply the Best Option
Very interesting viewpoint Dreaded One – thank you for the post. I say Rick stays for a very sane and logical reason – he is the absolute best option available for Texas. Every coach that is a sure upgrade – Izzo, Williams, Self, Coach K – and a few others are tied into very loyal relationships, or better basketball opportunities. There are other coaches that are doing a better job than Rick at present, such as Mark Few at Gonzaga, the guy at Butler, and other mid majors. But how do you assume those guys step into the bright lights at Texas and succeed? Will they be a tremendous representative of the University like Rick Barnes? Not sure this is analagous, but Texas Women’s basketball brought in a pure blue chip coach in Coach G from Duke. National Contender – looked like a no brainer. But this state was a different animal, and she has been disappointing on the national stage. Barnes has brought championship level talent to Texas – that is a very key step one, and a tremendous accomplishment. No one else has ever done that – period. He will not take the next step until he develops an offensive system that is flexible and efficient. I think it will be far more successful to pay big money for an “offensive coordinator”, and stick with Rick. For one reason – he is the best option for Texas.
Note to Bill Byrne "Because you aren´t Texas and you´ll never be Texas"
Offensive coordination
I personally don’t have a firm opinion on keeping versus replacing Barnes, but the outside world of sports pundits seems to have a more negative opinion of him than we do.
CBS Sports rated Barnes as “even” with Arizona’s Sean Miller in their Preview, further saying that Miller had an advantage in Xs and Os.
Doug Gottlieb on Sportscenter commented today that the inbound play was poorly designed. Many here disagree with the TO call last night. A few commenters on BON have complained about game planning and adjustments.
Which leads to the question: how much of our offensive scheming is really on Barnes’ shoulders; what portion of our Xs and Os does he draw up?
Not that offensive coordination is the lone problem, but if it’s a key one, who is the weak link that is responsible… just as it was with football, perhaps the OC is who we need to replace first? Most of us probably don’t know enough about the assistant coaches’ history and records to judge, but perhaps we should review who they are and their background, for starters:
I Think I Agree and Disagree
I think I agree that on an X’s and O’s standpoint that Rick and the coaching staff is not an elite staff. But I think he is an absolute top 5, stud, elite recruiter that has brought unbelievable talent to a football first University. It is close to unprecedented in the NCAA. Duran, Ford, TJ, LaMarcus, Gibson – who else is bringing that type of talent to a football first University? I think the national guys are missing the importance of that contribution. Talent will win out over schemes any day of the week. The problem for Rick is that there are true basketball powers with great talent, and they can diagram X’s and O’s. Duke, UNC, KU, and Kentucky are basketball schools that get at least Texas level talent and can scheme with the best of em.
Note to Bill Byrne "Because you aren´t Texas and you´ll never be Texas"
Barnes is an elite X's and O's coach on defense...
His teams have a great track record when it comes to defense and rebounding. You only get strong defense and rebounding, year in and year out, by knowing how to coach it.
The problem is on offense, where Barnes finally is starting to see the light, and doing what Coach K does by borrowing a system from somewhere else.
Improving the offense
Agree that his defensive coaching is strong (I should’ve mentioned that as well)
There have been a few comments that Barnes is improving on offense, which is good. What exactly has he been doing…. learning another system? Has he brought in a consultant? Perhaps it is time for new OC assistants. That’s essentially what I was saying above.
I would like to see him succeed here. Next year, he will have phenomenal weapons (players) at his disposal. I hope that we will be prepared by then to use them to maximum potential. It will be Showtime or Go-time.
Barnes spent last summer with the Utah Jazz...
Barnes did his homework, and asked coaches all over the country what they thought the hardest offense to defend was. Many, particularly NBA coaches, pointed him to Jerry Sloan’s offense. He and his staff then spent some time with the Jazz.
Here is some more info, if you are interested.
http://barkingcarnival.fantake.com/2010/11/16/inside-texas-basketball/
A smart move by Barnes
Unfortunately he should have done this 15 years ago. Too stubborn, too ignorant, or too obsessed with defense. Who is to say.
Not realizing the need for a cohesive offensive system to consistently compete for championships – this is Barnes’ tragic flaw.
That is kind of a harsh view
Most of us need a serious failure to take a hard look at our strengths and weaknesses, and figure out where to improve. I know that was true in my own life, and as a rule, I don’t hold others to a higher standard than I hold myself to.
Barnes personal moment of failure was last year. He had what he thought was his best team ever, with a serious shot at a title. And it all came apart. So he went and tried to figure out why it had happened, and how he could improve.
Open mindedness and willingness to work hard
are worth a lot. Like many commented, the Jazz news gives us elation and hope.
Just one thing is confusing… so was it really 6 weeks, or just a few days, as Barnes supposedly clarified?
I don't know the answer to that question
Unfortunately, he won’t be able to see Sloan installing his system next summer.
On the other hand, perhaps we can have Sloan come down for a few weeks to help set the offense next year, seeing as he may be available. That would be worth a few dollars.
Sloan might have a little free time...
how about a year-long gig as The Consiglieri?
realistic???
hey, we just got jobbed out of the Sweet Sixteen. We have a coach whose good points are soooo good, and whose weak points are soooo frustrating…. I don’t think realistic is the way I want to go right at the moment.
but yeah, for dreaming that’s a good one to have…
I agree with your point about set plays and out of bounds plays
One thing we seem to lack is a few good plays that we can use to get “cheap” buckets off of out of bounds plays. This can make a difference in close games.
Coach or culture
Maybe the reason we are not at the top is our pervasive football culture. Kids in North Carolina grow up dreaming of playing basketball for Duke or UNC. We don’t have that here and there’s nothing a coach can do about it. John Wooden wouldn’t have had better players in Texas than Barnes has. The fact that this year’s success came from two Canadians and a Californian shows the problem.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
Interesting point, Caradoc.
I do think basketball culture here has kicked into a higher gear here, particularly in urban areas. I think general knowledge about basketball is on the upswing from everything I’ve seen (and part of that is girls basketball as well). We have a better chance of keeping some of those exceptional players who might go to KU or Duke or Big 10. But football is still the king and has the organization all the way down to the turtles to support it. The most basketball can hope for is some sorta of relatively even footing to draw those athletes who have a choice in settling for one sport. With the numbers differential they don’t even need that even of footing.
Myth that really needs to be debunked
I don’t profess to be a basketball expert but I think that the underachievement in this team is maddening when you live in Big East country which is a tremendously over-hyped conference but with strong coaching.
We didn’t underachieve this year at all! The majority of the season was a total overachievement, and then we fell back to earth once the Big XII teams learned how to scout us (really not that hard to do for this team).
by goingforthecorner on Mar 21, 2011 3:30 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
A small lineup with only one qualtiy player on the bench that was picked to finish 4th in conference behind Kansas, Kansas St., and Baylor. Unrated in one poll pre-season and rated 25th in another. The Horns had a great season, here’s to them. Heck, most of you were puhsing Barnes for Big XII COY mid-season.
Agree with this also
As upset as I was last night, I’ve come to realize today that this season was really a bonus given how I felt about this team back in November.
I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me.
Noel Coward
by beast in bama on Mar 21, 2011 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions
But this is exactly what gets to me
How do you base your expectations from year to year…if it’s based on the previous year or years, that doesn’t seem right because the team could look totally different next year, especially if TT and Hamilton leave. Yeah, the Kabongo kid is supposed to be all world, but what does that guarantee?
I think the reality is that we don’t know what we’ve got from year to year (particularly from a team chemistry standpoint) and we typically reserve the right to set expectations about midway thru the season right around the time conference play starts. And I think that’s fair given the high attrition rate of players, well of the starters anyway.
So similar to you, do I have just as much right to write:
“As upset as I was last night, I’m even more pissed about it as I’ve come to realize that this season was probably our best chance in years to make it all the way given the way I felt about this team back in early February.”
I mean they beat UNC at UNC, KU at KU, should have beaten UCONN and were just killing every Big XII team. They had ESPN pundits pencilling them in for the final four. Where did that go?
It’s all relative to me.
Be nobody but yourself in a world that desperately wants you to be like everybody else.
Expectations should be set in four or five year intervals such as
We expect coach to reach a Final Four every five years, compete for a title (ie championship game ) every 8 years, and win one every 12 years. We expect to win a Big 12 title and Big 12 tourney championship every 4 years.
Year to year we expect no worse than a Top 3 Finish in the Big 12 and a seed higher than 8 in the tourney.
The time constraints are arbitrary but this is about what I expect from our basketball team.
Obviously we are well below these expectations which is why I wouldn’t be upset if Rick left the program.
+1. whole lot of recency bias going around in the longhorn faithful, lately.
"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.
Rivals.com ranking of head coaches
Their criteria aren’t clearly detailed, but they have Barnes at #20 as of March 14th
Bruce Pearl Fired By Tennessee
Perhaps too little value is placed on Barnes’ ability to run a clean program.
Thanks everyone for chiming in...
I guess that the only thing above that I would qualify is that I feel the team underachieved because they stumbled and faded again. I don’t consider a loss to a better team a failure. That’s what’s supposed to happen but for all intents and purposes, we were at least evenly matched against Arizona and we did not find a way to win.
I suppose it’s lost in the context of the original post but as disappointing as yesterday’s loss was, I actually feel less like Coach Barnes should be replaced. I don’t think that, as much as he gets bashed, that there’s anybody out there that’s a definite upgrade.
Might be too early to tell about him, but...
there’s anybody out there that’s a definite upgrade.
Brad Stevens at Butler has all of my attention right now. If I were Tennessee or some other big conference program with a coaching vacancy, that’s who I’d go after with every ounce of fiscal power my athletic department could muster. But for a program like Texas, with a proven winner in place like Barnes, it’s just too early to take a gamble on Stevens.
I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me.
Noel Coward
by beast in bama on Mar 21, 2011 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Brad Stevens' teams aren't exactly known for efficent offense either.
His teams really seem to excel at rebounding. Last year’s team was a great defensive team, while this year’s team is just OK. And the Butler teams are extremely physical.
He and Barnes are sort of kindred spirits, I guess.
Contrast the last play options in both of their games
Butler down 1 playing an elite defense in Pitt gets a layup for the go-ahead score
Texas down 1 gets an off-balance contested shot that goes nowhere. The plan looked like to draw a foul in that situation as opposed to find a decent shot.
Instead of firing Barnes
what probably needs to be done is helping him with X/Os by hiring an assistant coach with a lot of knowledge and experience particularly on offense. We basically need a basketball version of Charlie Weis to help Barnes maximize the talent that he recruited.
by goingforthecorner on Mar 21, 2011 4:53 PM CDT reply actions
Let's make Barnes the Basketball version of Mack. The ultimate CEO head coach.
We can get badass offensive and defensive coordinators and let Rick be the transormational leader, figurehead type of coach. Hell, we have the money to hire position coaches, too. I’m being a little tongue-in-cheek, but how awesome would that be?
"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.
*transformational
"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.
Two issues
(1) the last two seasons it seems like the team is physically spent at the end of the season. When other teams seem to be hitting their groove on the 3-pointers, we can’t find the range. Hamilton complained this season that he “lost his legs” at least once during the season. Playing two games a week should not be too much for these guys. Maybe in-season practices are too intense (we have heard they are intense from commentators) or maybe our S&C is overrated.
(2) Barnes needs to be more animated on the sideline. When we’re struggling, he looks lost. Last year he had a quick hook and yelled at kids too much. This year he doesn’t yell but he still uses the hook. The hook doesn’t work. If a kid makes a mistake, tell him immediately but leave him in. If he does it a couple of times, yank him. It’s clear the cognitive load on Barnes is too much durnig the game. I coach 6 year olds and the amount of stuff that goes wrong in any one minute span is unbelievable. When things are going wrong, I have three or four set plays that get us back on track (one is a pick & roll I use to counter teams that trap at halfcourt). Barnes should consider developing some “go to” plays for the defenses he’s seen. I hardly ever see him react to defensive changes (but admitedly, I can’t see everything on TV).
by Erasmus Funderburke on Mar 21, 2011 5:16 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Jordan
Looked like he had lost his legs a bit at times in the Zona game as well, so I agree there. I think our guys just play pretty heavy minutes. You may be right about Todd Wright, but I’m not sure about that one. Basically everybody who speaks about him says he’s right there with the best in the biz if not THE best.
I don’t mind Barnes’ demeanor this year. Last year when he was screaming left and right it physically hurt me because it obviously was not helping the kids at all and you could tell they were getting sick of it. He got less antagonistic and I think the kids responded well this season. But you’re completely right that having a coach take you out of the game not only doesn’t help at all, it lowers your confidence.
Follow me on Twitter @GoHornsGo90
Pretty sure this is my first post...
Rick Barnes pulled himself out of the fire this year, for me. Yes, he faltered in the tournament, but there was no complete breakdown, which frankly, I was very concerned about after last year.
I think that it IS too much to expect Texas to be an elite basketball program, but it’s not too much to HOPE (not necessarily expect) we win a basketball championship “one of these years”. (hey if Florida can do it, why not us, right?)
Well, what does it take to be considered elite in terms of basketball programs?
1)Tradition
2) Name Coach
3) who recruits
4) and wins
5) and wins the big games
6) and especially wins tournament games
Grading our program (not just this year’s crop)…
I give us a C+ for basketball tradition (perceived program tradition + arena+crowds+well-publicized student section issues impact here…
a B- for a name coach,
a A-/B+ for recruiting,
a B for wins
a C+ for wins the big games
and a C+ for winning tournament games.
We are an above average program thanks to our consistency, but we haven’t even “flashed” greatness in terms of the factors above required to make a serious championship run (with apologies to TJF’s over-achievers).
Obviously, the head coach is tied up in all of this, but if your program is stagnant in the sense that they are consistently above average but never truly contenders, and you are traditionally a “football school”, do you really complain?
Imo, not until next year, which should be more of a test for Barnes than this year, because he will be expected to win, if TT and Hamilton are back, with Kabongo. We should get to the Final Four. If we do, will we complain about our losing to Arizona instead of Duke this year? We are perhaps stagnant, but consistently above average is much better than what we were pre-Barnes.
We’ll never have the basketball tradition of Kansas or UNC, but in my opinion we can hold Rick’s highest standard of success to be a title run every 6-8 years (aka Final Four or above finish) + consistently above average in other years. So if he can make a push next year, I’ll be very pleased. I don’t think we should be too upset about the state of the program now, but I will certainly be willing to reconsider after next year.
by Chuck Holden on Mar 21, 2011 5:31 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Good first post.
"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.
I don't agree with everything you said
But definitely a very solid post, especially if it’s your first.
I think Barnes has to get at least an A in recruiting…there’s not really anybody better other than Calipari and Marquise Teague pretty much proved he’s not doing it on an equal playing field, not than people didn’t know that already.
More importantly, I definitely think UT can move into the “elite” echelon. The kind of recruits we bring in will give us a fighting chance in basically any game we play. We’ve had some tough breaks with people leaving early that probably weren’t expected to and people transferring that could have helped our depth. A little luck, one little national championship, and voila, elite! :D
Follow me on Twitter @GoHornsGo90
What if..
TT and JH come back and Texas is out after the first weekend again with 0 championships. Do we draw the line then? I’m sure we’ll have another 5 star player coming in and have people saying..next year is the year.
I honestly could care less if a Texas gets eliminated after the first weekend or after the sweet 16. It still means 0 championships. I want to win it all not make it to the final four. Can that happen with Barnes?
If TT
And JH come back, Kabongo is a legitimate stud like I expect, and Texas still gets ousted on the first weekend, Barnes will have some serious heat.
That said, your view on how basketball works is extremely…well…wrong. The difference between first weekend and the Sweet Sixteen is vast. Basketball isn’t like football where you have such a decided (or should) advantage over most other teams. It’s very easy to to level the playing field and even easier for one team to have a bad game. I’m sorry, and 54b doesn’t want to hear this, but winning the tourney involves a ton of luck. Advancing multiple rounds almost never, NEVER comes without some end-of-game luck. Sure teams put themselves in a position to win, but if you aren’t lucky you are gone. It is hard to find the team that is so transcendent that they are never challenged in the tourney. That really just doesn’t happen anymore.
The Ohio State team that was so loaded when Oden was there needed a ridiculously lucky three from Ron Lewis to send a second round game against Xavier into OT. They ultimately lost to Florida in the championship. Lots of luck…
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by GoHornsGo90 on Mar 21, 2011 9:48 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Amen.
“but winning the tourney involves a ton of luck. Advancing multiple rounds almost never, NEVER comes without some end-of-game luck.”
The best way to make this luck work in your favor at some point is to have a strong team in the tournament as often as possible.
Excellent point
For me as a fan, it means wanting a team that is capable of making the run to the top, whether that actually happens or not. I’d love to see them win it all, but I measure success as a team coming together, playing well, and making the most of their opportunities.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
I understand what your saying
but people don’t remember who makes it two the Sweet 16 5 years down the road. People remember champions.
Respectfully, I'm not sure you completely get what he's saying
I feel like that either you are either just making a passive comment (which is fine) or you are misunderstanding the crux of his response.
Your first post emphasizes how you want more than just Sweet Sixteen appearances or Final Four appearances. You emphasize how you want to win a championship. In your response, you reiterate this saying that people only remember the champions of a tournament.
GoHornsGo90 is saying that it is an improper and unrealistic criterion to benchmark a program based on the number of championships that they’ve won. He expounds on this by talking about how winning a championship is a metric of not just skill and ability, but also of luck, an uncontrollable factor.
Combine this with Reggieball’s comment which essentially says that a program has a responsibility to repeatedly get sorta-close in a tournament to put themselves in a position where luck can take them the rest of the way.
In summation: A program has a responsibility to put themselves in a position where luck matters. This can be done with the skill of its players and the ingenuity of their coach. However, it is important to realize that skill and ingenuity alone won’t win you a championship; that instead, you need luck. Thus, while it is a worthy goal to look forward to championships, you must benchmark a program on something other than championship appearances, such as Sweet Sixteen appearances. If you benchmark a program’s success based only on their championships, then you will have an inaccurate measure of a program’s actual performance and capacity to reach a championship.
by Garfield3d on Mar 22, 2011 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Excellent summation Garfield
Couldn’t have (and obviously didn’t, lol) explained it better myself!
Follow me on Twitter @GoHornsGo90
It's not all luck
The same teams are at the top the past few years for a reason (Kansas, Duke etc). I don’t think they get lucky all the time.. I do get your point though and agree for the most part. i think some teams need more luck than other (Butler, Texas, etc.) and others go on talent and good coaching (Kansas, Duke, etc).
by Longhorns84 on Mar 22, 2011 10:07 PM CDT up reply actions
KU lost to Northern Iowa last year
Duke lost to VCU. Farokmanesh and Maynor holla!
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by GoHornsGo90 on Mar 22, 2011 11:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Duke and Kansas
Are at or near the top 5 of the rankings nearly every year. And yet how often do they win the title or reach the Final Four.
Since 2000, Duke has reached the AP top five at some point every year. They have won 2 NC’s in that span, and have reached another Final 4.
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/DUKE/
Since 2000, KU has two seasons where they were at no point in the AP top 10. All other seasons they reached #1 or #2. They have 1 NC and 2 other final 4’s to show for it.
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/KAN/
(Note, those links seem to already know when Duke and KU will lose this year. Sort of funny.)
your right
but they make it far just about every year and they have a shelf full of titles.
you meant You're
You tell them they are right, but then add some other comment like it doesn’t matter that they are right.
It’s like arguing with a drunk.
"A lot of people look for the easy way to do anything, in swimming there is no easy way." - Eddie Reese
Barnes as a coach, and not as a recruiter
I think it is a pretty reasonable thing to critique the Barnes approach to offense, while still fully supporting him as the coach at Texas. I am a major supporter of Barnes, and I hope that he spends the rest of his career here.
The problem with a new system of offense is that you just don’t go out an learn it in 6 weeks. It takes a few years of coaching in it to appreciate the nuances of how you teach and drill the system, and how you fix problems that arise with your team’s execution. So if Barnes is going to stick with this offense (I hope he does) he should get better from year to year.
But the major thing that I hope Barnes does is to continue to recognize that offense is a weakness for him as a coach. This doesn’t have to be fatal; it just means he has to continue spending time with other coaches that he can learn from, and keep studying.
Barnes is one of the best in the business at coaching defense, and particularly at coaching rebounding. Barnes teams are among the best at rebounding, year in and year out. Keep in mind, at the beginning of the year, many were worried that this team would have trouble on the boards. That didn’t happen, and it will seldom happen as long as Barnes is the coach. Barnes rates right up there with Izzo and Calhoun when it comes to the performance he gets out of his teams on the boards.
This is probably a stupid question.
We’ve talked about Hammy and Thompson possibly coming back. IMO, Hammy is gone unfortunately but I hope I’m wrong. Thompson comes back for 1 more year to lead team Canada via Austin.
Does J’Covan Brown come back next season? What does our potential full contributing team look like for next year?
"I asked Darrell Royal, the coach of the Texas Longhorns, why he didn’t recruit me and he said: "Well, Walt, we took a look at you and you weren’t any good.
- Walt Garrison
by 512 on Mar 21, 2011 6:38 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Brown has to come back, or he will be making a serious mistake
I don’t think Brown is an NBA talent. He is a solid ballplayer who is very skilled, but is not a good enough athlete. Maybe with a few more years of college ball, he can convince someone to take him. The NBA is currently loaded with very athletic point guards, and I don’t know that Brown’s “old man game” really fits in the current NBA. Brown won’t be able to guard anyone, and isn’t good enough offensively to get teams to look past his defense. Brown is a four year college player who probably will play his pro ball in the D-league or overseas.
I am worried that Thompson goes out. It might happen. He would be a lottery pick this year, and I think he ought to seriously consider it. But I selfishly hope, with a pending lockout and the prospects of improving his standing in the draft some that he stays for another year.
I assume Hamilton is gone, but I worry that he might fall a bit in the draft. In his favor is that it will be a weak draft class, but the NBA has no shortage of 6’7" guys who are streaky shooters, and I fear that his stock may fall as the draft approaches. I hope this doesn’t happen, and I think that perhaps his good year on the boards will make him some money. He is more than just a scorer, so that will help him.
Courtney Fortson
Arkansas’ Fortson is a similar player who tested the NBA waters last year and had no takers. The starting guard spots in the NBA go to the elite of the elite.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
Hmm
Really great example with Fortson. Got he tore us apart last year in (I believe) his first game back from suspension. Good handles and creation ability. Not a great shooter (not quite as good as Brown). Excellent ball handler. Probably quicker and faster than Covan. Very good comparison, though, IMO.
Follow me on Twitter @GoHornsGo90
by GoHornsGo90 on Mar 22, 2011 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions
Fortson would make a great Globetrotter, don't you think?
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
I do
That’s kind of the impression I get from watching his game lol. Or an And 1 player.
Follow me on Twitter @GoHornsGo90
by GoHornsGo90 on Mar 22, 2011 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions
My Frustration with Barnes...
Is that we cannot put 5 offensively competent players on the court at a time, mostly because we don’t have more than 5 on the team. The middle of the lane was packed for TT because no one guards Hill or Balbay. There were too many hands and bodies in there for him to move away from the ’zona bigs.
It is not necessary to have 5 guys who can go get 20 in a night, but they have to pose enough of a threat to make the defense play them. This is a recruiting issue for sure, possible a coaching issue as well. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realize that if your PG cannot hit above 50% from the free throw line or 40% from 17 ft, you will have problems. As good a guy as Balbay seems to be, you cannot recruit him instead of a guy that can shoot. If they cannot shoot, then they must be athletic enough to FINISH at the rim. Instead, we have people than can neither shoot nor finish (Chapman, Hill, Wangmene, Balbay, Lucas).
I think that you can trace the late season slumps to a lack of depth, and to the fact that in tournament and conference games, teams gameplan against your weakness more so than in the regular season. Our offense struggled mightily in the last two years down the stretch, and it because the defense plays 5 on 3.
On the coaching side, Barnes has a habit of taking decent offensive players and convincing them to stop shooting and become “defensive stoppers” in the offseason – See Justin Mason. I see it coming for Joseph.
by username_LH on Mar 21, 2011 6:57 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
An aggie has never experienced this
Thought we could use a pick me up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWNNAFDWDtU&NR=1
Nary a bigger game has ever been player.
Willie Mayes Hayes.
“Catches like Mayes, runs like Hayes.”
Sounds like what we want is Tom Penders’ Running Horns offense and entertainment and Rick Barnes’ defense and rebounding.
We’d need some serious shooters for that.
Penders did well in recruiting NYC and started our legacy of visiting every year in some fashion just to facilitate recruiting those guys. That would fill up the gym in early season as well…if you can score at least 100 and maybe 120, people wanna see that.
The last two seasons we have seen flashes of that in the big runs but Barnes is content with keeping it within his defensive boundaries and under 85. Penders didn’t give a shit if the opponents scored 85, if the Running Horns scored over a 100.
So, my point is that there might also be some consideration of the balance of the offense and the entertainment value, especially in many early season games. They’re losing 60-100k fans; that’s a lot.
100 points = free tacos
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
by Caradoc on Mar 22, 2011 8:12 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think your stats are wrong.
Maybe somebody already mentioned this, but your numbers are off. Barnes has taken us past the 2nd round 5 times:
-Sweet 16 in 2002
-Final 4 in 2003
-Sweet 16 in 2004
-Elite 8 in 2006
-Elite 8 in 2008
I bring this up not to be a jerk but because, as you said, the sample size is small, and the correct numbers change the percentages quite a bit.
What about Rick Pitino or Tom Izzo?
I think Texas could get either one if they showed them the money.
In a way I don’t want to get rid of Barnes mainly because I don’t want to lose the recruits that are coming. I think in the long run it would be a good decision if they got a top notch guy like Pitino or Izzo. I know both had tough years and exited the tourney early but both are proven good coaches at the college level (especially with NBA talent).
See that's another thing you're just missing
Those guys are pure basketball and have made their respective programs basketball worthy. They already get paid plenty and have plenty in the bank. Izzo just passed up, what, 5 million a year to coach the Cavs? It’s not all about money. It’s about tradition and respect for a certain program.
Follow me on Twitter @GoHornsGo90
Izzo yes..not Pitino
Louisville isn’t a major powerhouse in b-ball. I think he would come to Texas. Izoo would be much more difficult.
Sorry for premature post - Barnes>Pittino for Texas
IMHO Barnes much better for Texas than Pittino. First, speaking of premature, Pittino is tarnished goods for that sleazy encounter at Louisville. Why go sleaze when you can have a class guy like Barnes? Second, to me he looks like he doesn’t have the fire in the tank to win. Already talking about retirement, and when you start talking about it …..
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
He may not want to coach in the NBA
too many personalities and egos.
by Longhorns84 on Mar 22, 2011 10:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Izzo will never leave Michigan State
It just isn’t going to happen. He has been at Michigan State since 1983 (with one 2 month stint elsewhere). He has had many chances to leave. As GoHornsGo90 points out, the most recent was a very highly publicized situation where he turned down a huge offer. And Izzo has stated publicly that he will never leave.
Pitino might come
Pitino has changed jobs a number of times. He seems like the restless type, and could be had with the right offer.
But do you want him? Do you really think he would be better than Barnes? He is now pushing 60, and I guess that I don’t really see why you would want him to come in at this point to take over a program.
hell yeah he better than Barnes..really?
He’s a proven great coach..I would take pitino over barnes in a second. The age would be the biggest turn off. What about Butler’s coach?
by Longhorns84 on Mar 22, 2011 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions
At least Barnes
WON his 13-4 matchup…and Oakland is better than Morehead State.
Follow me on Twitter @GoHornsGo90
by GoHornsGo90 on Mar 22, 2011 11:24 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
So you want a 58 year old coach
who hasn’t won big for 15 years, and will bolt to the NBA at some point in the next few years?
Izzo told the Cleveland Cavs....
…. to hang it in their ear.
Obviously, we don’t come close to NBA money.
--- All roads to the Big-XII Championship lead through OU/RRS. It's not just another game! We're all about championships here. ---
Just watched a nice clip of Myck Kabongo....
and I predict man-crush mass hysteria after his first couple of games in burnt orange.
"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.
For anyone interested in getting excited about next year...
"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.
Link fail
http://barkingcarnival.fantake.com/2011/03/21/texas-vs-arizona-and-the-nation-post-mortem/
"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.
I had a post on that page
That I think is pretty important regarding how, in the optimal scenario of TT and Hammy returning, the team would have excellently defined roles and would gel easily. That in stark contrast to the also-extremely-talented 2009-2010 team.
Follow me on Twitter @GoHornsGo90
by GoHornsGo90 on Mar 22, 2011 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions
Our 2009-10 team....
…. lost its starting PG in the 9th game of the season.
Then we lost him again this season.
--- All roads to the Big-XII Championship lead through OU/RRS. It's not just another game! We're all about championships here. ---
This is a myth that needs to be extinguished
Varez Ward never played PG for Texas. He was a SG through and through. Not sure why people thought that.
Follow me on Twitter @GoHornsGo90
Headline: "Texas Basketball: PG Varez Ward To Transfer"
--- All roads to the Big-XII Championship lead through OU/RRS. It's not just another game! We're all about championships here. ---
I think a consensus is developing that
with Kabongo next year, and if TT and JH are back, Rick’s expectations sky rocket. If the team doesn’t make the sweet 16, it is time to look elsewhere.
To add... this team's weakness was a lack of scoring
ability when the jump shots were not going down. Holmes is a big man who can step out and shoot a three… and Lewis is a streaky good shooter. So, along with Joseph & J’Covan, this team will have role players who can get hot. That was lacking this year. Many times it seemed that Hammy was the only one who would take an outside shot (especially with Balbay on the floor), and goes on those terrible shot selection runs. This is all to say, next year’s team should sure up the weaknesses of this year’s without loosing any of what made this team decent.
Couple of very good points
You’re right about Rick’s expectations if that scenario happens. Anything, ANYTHING less than a FF would be a decided disappointment. And fans will flip if he doesn’t reach the second weekend.
Good point too about the jump shooting. We’ve finally got our first true stretch post since Jr. year Atchley (James was a perimeter player and Johnson couldn’t stretch it out enough to really consistently help the team’s spacing or matchups). In fact, we’ve got two of them until Kevin Thomas completely transitions to the wing spot. Both guys are very good shooters.
Lewis can really light it up from three when he’s hot, as you said, and McClellan is a good shooter too.
Myck isn’t Jimmer Fredette or even Nolan Smith from deep, but his man won’t be playing a one-man zone in the middle of the paint either. Kabongo’s really worked hard on his shot and improved exponentially since he committed as a sophomore.
Follow me on Twitter @GoHornsGo90
by GoHornsGo90 on Mar 22, 2011 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions
Barnes & Brown
I liked your comparison of Rick Barnes to Mack Brown and was thinking the same thing. Mack hasn’t won many Big 12 Championships either and only got over the hump and won it all with a transcendent super-freak talent, aka VY. Durant could have been that for Texas hoops, but perhaps lacked the supporting cast. Both coaches are well-respected, well-liked by their players, send plenty of guys to the next level. But not so good with pre-game motivation or in-game adjustments.
As for your coaching list, Penders definitely did more with less, but Barnes is a huge step up from where we were in the Runnin’ Horns era. Not sold on the others except for Howland who I would hire in a heartbeat, but I seriously doubt we could lure him to Austin.
If everyone returns, the Longhorns should be really good in 2011/12. I’ll give Barnes the benefit of the doubt and withhold judgement until this time next year….
we have waaayyy too much money
to waste it on a quality basketball program. why make waves? keeping mediocrity in basketball is wise at this juncture.
"you can destroy a man, but you cannot defeat him." - e.h.
Good point.
The drum can only hold so many people…
"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.
Want a championship? Heres the Shopping List:
a) Bench Depth B) Post replacement for Matt Hill C) Convince the core of the team to stay all 4 years like Florida a few years ago.
Hill?
I assume you mean Johnson, but either way another year of development for Wangmene and the return of Chapman should give us capable backups next year. Wangmene still needs work, but he has shown signs of progress. If Chappy has also progressed, he should be an upgrade from Hill. However, I’m thinking Thompson/Thomas will start.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
Some thoughts
Mostly that have been touched on, but maybe not entirely and I just feel like chiming in, since participating in a dialogue like this eases the frustration of that loss. Barnes sometimes seems to be a victim of his recruiting success. It seems like in recent years we haven’t been able to store up mid-level talent star provides a nice base for the stud recruits. Where are the Buckmans, Moutons, Iveys, Klotzes, Paulinos, Tuckers, and James Thomases? What all those role players provided was consistent production, if not real star power. It seems like dating back to Durant, we’ve had to live and die with superstar talent that’s somewhat unrefined and don’t bring steady performances that as a coach, you need to be able to rely on. is that who Shawn Wlliams and Varez Ward should have been for this team? Is it just dumb luck and bad timing? Our upperclassmen and bench payers this year (not named J’Covan Brown) all just weren’t very good players (not sure what happened to GJ) and offered pretty massive limitations for Barnes to work around. I don’t know if I’m giving Barnes a free pass for being hamstrung by transfers and early departures or if I’m criticizing him fir not doing a better job of constructing his recruiting classed to be able to establish a based of talented role players to take advantage of the spark of a truly elite talent every other year or so. I guess I’m just throwing that angle out three for discussion. Remember the seasons we could throw half a dozen guys out there that could each go off for 20 points a night? We clearly didn’t have that this year and still were a real tough out in the tournament.
Not sure I made any sense, but I feel better somehow.
by littlevisigoth on Mar 22, 2011 12:14 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Williams and Ward
Were supposed to be those guys for sure. Mason was too, but Barnes shredded his confidence. Dion Dowell and Mike Williams would have likely made a huge impact as upper classmen, but neither chose to stick it out and that led to a lot of our depth problems and reliance on young players in the KD/D.J. years.
Follow me on Twitter @GoHornsGo90
by GoHornsGo90 on Mar 22, 2011 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions
FYI...
Yes, he’s not won a championship but one third of his appearances (his team is still alive this year) have resulted in the Final Four. That’s Ben Howland of UCLA.
UCLA lost last weekend to FLA.
Do not be distracted by what you see, but be transformed by what you believe.
Tough to be too tough on Barnes
When it’s all said and done, not too many coaches have actually won the National Championship. He puts Texas in the hunt year after year. Eventually we will win.
Barnes needs to hire new asst. coaches. He needs an offensive coordinator.
True Story
I woke up in cold sweats one night because I had a dream Rodney Terry left us.
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
by run Bevo run on Mar 22, 2011 8:50 PM CDT up reply actions
That's pretty terrifying
Terry is great.
Follow me on Twitter @GoHornsGo90
by GoHornsGo90 on Mar 22, 2011 11:25 PM CDT up reply actions
I bet Rick takes 3-5 calls a week about him
The more we win, the more calls he’s going to get too.
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
by run Bevo run on Mar 23, 2011 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions
It's the inevitability of it.
Some program is going to say, “This guy helped get 10 McDonalds All Americans on campus and there’s no room for advancement…$$$$$$”
Anyway, you are correct, I do need to come up for air, I will heed the council of wisdom.
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
by run Bevo run on Mar 23, 2011 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions
I can understand your apprehension.
Maybe you need to write a Dear DeLoss letter. Get him a title and more money fast. He’s the one who greases the wheels, the money-making wheels.
Lack of a PG killed us
I love me some Dogus Balbay, especially as a backup, but when our Starting PG can’t shoot outside of 2 feet from the basket and is not a good FT shooter… that just simply kills a team. Your PG is supposed to be your best FT shooter and ball handler etc…
All the crap that Barnes had to do all season in shuffling different lineups was tough and it was a large part because of dogus’ skill set. The last TO that hammy took would not have been necessary if we had a real PG in there to race over to Hammy to get the ball to close out the game.
Barnes and NC State
Friend here in Charleston, SC said word on the street in North Carolina is Barnes will be at NC State for an interview soon
by Dawnpatrol on Mar 22, 2011 6:36 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Don't think
Anyone cares right now
by jtdoes on Mar 22, 2011 9:09 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Doubtful
At best.
Follow me on Twitter @GoHornsGo90
by GoHornsGo90 on Mar 22, 2011 11:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Not the most...
Reliable source. Nor do they seem particularly confident. Why turn down Kentucky if all you wanted was NC State?
Follow me on Twitter @GoHornsGo90
Booked
That one.
Follow me on Twitter @GoHornsGo90
by GoHornsGo90 on Mar 23, 2011 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Because he got his feelings hurt that UK's first choice was Donovan.
Do not be distracted by what you see, but be transformed by what you believe.
Doubt
Barnes is that petty, but he definitely has a pride issue.
Follow me on Twitter @GoHornsGo90
by GoHornsGo90 on Mar 23, 2011 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions
I've never revealed this here
but my grandmother (mother’s side) was born in Hickory, North Carolina.
I’ve never felt even the slightest twinge to go there.
Of course, she was born in 1881 and was soon bound for Texas. Just sayin’.
The presure would be to intense
Success is defined in one way at UK, NCAA banners. While Barnes was being offered the Kentucky job he was already being ripped to shreds on the Kentucky message boards. Tubby Smith won a national title at Kentucky and was chased off.
Tubby Smith in 10 years:
- 1 National title
- 4 years to the elite 8 (including above)
- 6 years sweet 16 (including above)
- Never lost in the 1st round
- NCAA’s every year
It should be noted that we would like to be that damn picky.
Boy, I get sick of teams in blue.
Gosh....., I wonder.....
….. if all those NCAA banners made Tubby’s job of recruiting a little bit easier? Not to mention one (if not the) of the highest paid staffs in the country. How many NC banners do we have hanging at the Erwin Center? Not so many….huh? Tubby made the NIT, bowed out in the 1st round of the NCAA twice and didn’t even make the tournament this season.
--- All roads to the Big-XII Championship lead through OU/RRS. It's not just another game! We're all about championships here. ---
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