Question of the Day: Does the Big 12 Tournament Matter?
by Peter Bean on Mar 8, 2011 11:00 AM CST
in Texas Longhorns Basketball
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PrintThe 2011 Big 12 basketball tournament tips off tomorrow, although for the 12th time in 13 years, Texas will not be playing on the first day. As the No. 2 seed, the Longhorns' Big 12 basketball tournament begins on Thursday evening at 6:00 p.m. CT, when they will square off with the winner of Wednesday's tilt between Baylor and Oklahoma.
Today's question is twofold: Do you care about the Big 12 tournament? And should Texas care?
Rick Barnes has won three Big 12 titles at Texas, but while his teams have been part to some epic final games, the Longhorns have never won the Big 12 basketball tournament. Does that matter? Personally, I don't much care. The Big 12 basketball tournament has some impact on your final seed, but beyond that it just doesn't mean all that much. I care about winning the regular season title, but I'm mostly indifferent about the Big 12 basketball tournament. Yes, I'd be happy for Rick Barnes, but really, taking place as it does right before the NCAA Tournament, it almost seems like more trouble than it's worth. Nice if you win it, but no big deal if you don't.
Should Texas care? Well, to the extent that playing well would help them in the NCAAs, then yes, absolutely they should. Of course, to the extent that playing well would hurt them, perhaps not. After all, this is a young team that's looked tired lately. Is it really such a bad thing if they bow out early? Then again, as discussed yesterday's post about the Big 12 basketball tournament, a nice run through could result in Texas playing in San Antonio.
What are your thoughts? Do you feel strongly about how well Texas plays in the Big 12 basketball tournament? Do you think the team has a lot to gain?
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YES, the B12 tourney matters . . .
…. more than any regular season games.
Its a showcase.
Its a tourney with lose-and-gone pressure which the team needs to experience.
It a GAME. I want the horns to win every game, dang it!
I've never understood the vitriol
Toward conference tournaments. They’re an exciting interlude between reg season play and the Big Dance and give a week for people to get geared up for the Madness to ensue. They also allow teams that have drastically improved over the season or had key injuries to prove their worth against good competition and get off the bubble, which is always an interesting discussion in itself.
Plus they obviously matter for seeding, as Texas could be anywhere from a high 4 to a low 1 depending on how they do in the tourney.
No vitriol
Like I said, it’s more like indifference as to whether Texas wins it. Yay if we do, but I’m fine if we don’t.
As for enjoying them: I absolutely love them, and am glad we have them. The question is whether it matters for Texas, and if we care whether Texas wins it.
You ain't hurt...
We care how they play
Most years I’d agreed, but now we have a team with two freshmen starters and spotty performance over the closing weeks. If they can’t get it gear now, the outlook for the NCAAs is pretty dismal. If they are going to have a strong run through the tourney, they need confidence and momentum they can only get through tournament experience.
Furthermore, a loss this week may be to a team that we are competing with for a tourney seed or regional placement. I gotta think every win is big.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
That big a difference?
Texas could be anywhere from a high 4 to a low 1
Do you really think Texas could wind up anywhere between 4 and 13 on the S-Curve based on this week?. IMO, that’s way to wide a range for the possible effect of a conference tournament.
To be filled in later.
by Hopkins Horn on Mar 8, 2011 12:49 PM CST up reply actions
meant 13
1-4 on the S-curve are the 4 1-seeds, 5-8 are 2-seeds 9-12 are 3-seeds so 13 would be the first (highest ranked) 4-seed.
is it not?
besides the obvious conference buffers and travel adjustments I thought this was the guideline.
Although in context I was mixed up by GHG 90 terminology, not the actual process...
To address the S-Curve, outside factors do come into play and might this year. BYU will not play on Sundays so they may be adjusted out of a seed in order to accomodate the sabbath.
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
Highspeed is correct
If GHG90 thinks we could be 1 through 4, then we would still have an S-Curve spread of at least 4-13 upon which we could fall. That very well could be the case, but that strikes me as being too wide a spread for one last week of basketball.
To be filled in later.
I thought you meant 16
As 16 would be the highest 4, but no biggie.
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
Highest as in the worst, Jesus I need to just continue working instead of juggling both
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
if we lose the first game
we drop out of the leading group (tOSU, Kansas, Pittsburgh, Duke, BYU, Notre Dame, North Carolina) and drop back into a very dense pack. Depending how the tournaments go (especially the BE) it wouldn’t be too hard to pick 5 teams out of this (not quite exhaustive) list that should be ranked higher above a Texas team that has lost 4 of its last 6 games:
Purdue, Wisconsin, Kentucky, San Diego St, Florida, Kentucky
BE- Syracuse, Louisville, St. John’s, West Virginia, Georgetown, Connecticut
Yes and No
In regards to the hardware, no….a Big XII Tourney Title and $5 will get you a footlong in March. It’s all about the Big Dance.
To that end, if you could tell me the difference between winning this conference tourney and say only going one deep in it was like the difference between a 2 and a 5 seed, then in that case I think it doe matter. But I don’t remember the NCAA committee ever putting too much of an emphasis on tourney results, they’re more regular season focused.
Lastly, in regards to this Texas team this season, I’d say the tourney matters more than usual simply because of the way the regular season ended. The Baylor win to close the reg. season helped, but we could use some more confidence with a few more solid wins. And I would have been more intrigued if we’d met Nebraska, K-State or CU in the early rounds just to exorcise those demons. Unfortunately, I doubt we’ll be all that motivated to beat OU, Baylor or A&M for the 3rd time and if what this team really needs is rest, then I won’t be all that sad to get knocked out early in OKC.
Be nobody but yourself in a world that desperately wants you to be like everybody else.
mixed feelings here
On one hand, i think of it as a chance for extra practices and game experience ala the argument for getting into a non-bcs bowl. However, what about risk for injury? Can we move up a see for the real tourney? maybe, but what are the actual chances? also, what if we lose to KU, does that diminish our road win against them? what if we lose to a crappy team, does that diminish our wins against them? i think the tourney is a catch 22, half good half bad.
in the end i only care about big 12 titles and elite 8 or better finishes (sweet 16s are so-so)
I like the conference tournaments to scout teams.
As for Texas, we need players like Jordan Hamilton to find his shooting touch again. He’s lost it and it affects how he plays on defense.
I buy the “let them rest” argument, but I think the possibility of playing in San Antonio is worth putting everything on the line here and going for the tournament title.
I wish we had more depth that could score. 4 of our 9 player rotation cannot really score (except Wingman at the FT line)!
"Football's so important in Texas. On the West Coast, it's a social. On the East Coast, it's a culture. Here, it's a religion."
-- Major Applewhite
I think there's more to CBB than the NCAA Tournament.
While the NCAA tournament crowns the national champion, and is thus the most important thing to most people, there’s more to the games that come before the NCAA tournament than just jockeying for seeds and preparing to play in the big dance. That’s not all the value they have. If it is, then they’re just glorified scrimmages.
Winning the regular season conference matters. Beating KU, OU and A&M matters. And yes, winning the Big 12 Conference tournament matters. If I had a choice between winning the conference tourney and the NCAA tourney, I’d obviously choose the NCAA tourney, but it’s not a zero sum game. Winning one does not preclude winning the other, and vice versa. Go for the win! They don’t hang banners for making the Elite 8; they hang banners for winning things.
now (periodically) tweeting @BZatBON
They do in fact hang banners for making the Elite Eight :)
But I respect your position. I’m all for winning it. It’s just not a big deal to me if we don’t.
You ain't hurt...
Been a while since I've been to the FEC, clearly.
Obviously more a figure of speech than anything. But if we won more things, maybe they’d stop hanging banners for “doing really well.”
now (periodically) tweeting @BZatBON
Guillermo Myers and Locksley Collie beg to differ
Be nobody but yourself in a world that desperately wants you to be like everybody else.
by 54b on Mar 8, 2011 3:11 PM CST up reply actions
The games will be televised on Big 12 Network and I am assuming CW Austin (KNVA) will have the Texas games.
The above link is to the Big 12 Network Stations. Most or not all the games are listed on ESPN.com to available at ESPN3.com
ATX
Off Topic
anybody watching the UCONN game halftime show talking about Jared Sullinger listening to miley cyrus?
ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
I wish I could play little league now... I'd kick some fuckin' ass.
Simpleton response
Is there a game scheduled? Is the University of Texas involved? If so, play to win. No matter if it is 7-on-7 against Texas State or a semi-scrimmage against Alcorn State.
Yes, the Big XII tournament matters.
It’s three games for a banner. Seniors have only X number of games left and no more college hoops. Play for them.
Yes, the Big XII tournament matters.
Didn’t ESPN and The University just ink a 20-year deal worth $300M? Does that matter? Doesn’t our basketball team have a responsibility to represent the brand?
Yes, the Big XII tournament matters.
Play to win each game like there’s no tomorrow.
Yes, the Big XII tournament matters.
- follow me @ http:/twitter.com/TXStampede
Not so much my question
Perhaps I didn’t phrase it well, but obviously the team is going to play to win. And should play to win.
The question is whether it should matter if they do or not. I’m not so sure it’s a big deal if they bow out early.
You ain't hurt...
Sorry if I wasn't clear in my response
In my humble opinion, it matters if they win. It always matters. And the Tourney is a big deal. A very big deal. //emphatic//
- follow me @ http:/twitter.com/TXStampede
For Confidence
Texas needs to play well. The offensive at best was ranked in the 30’s by Pomeroy, and lately has regressed into prior year’s motionless format. They look apprehensive and scared to make mistakes. They should be focused on running a real offense – passing, ball rotation, etc. to make the opposing teams extend energy on defense. With an eventual 2 seed in the NCAA’s it would be great for Barnes to make the Final Four and actually achieve something greater than the seed would imply (I believe this would be Barnes second shot at that accomplishment in his 13 years at Texas).
Only matters for teams trying to make it into the Dance
Does not matter for the teams with byes in the first round. Matters more for Tx than most just because it would be nice to see them revert to the form from earlier in the season. I do not buy the tired argument b/c these are 17-22 year old kids. I want A&M to win their 2nd round game but if they don’t it really does not matter to me.
A little off topic, but conference tournament titles are a pet peeve of mine. I have seen a lot of people try to justify Rob Childress’ career at A&M by saying he has won 3 Big 12 titles. He has not one three Big 12 titles. He won one Big 12 title and TWO tourney titles. There is a huge difference IMO. Just like basketball, one speaks to playing well consistently throughout the year. The other means you got hot for a weekend.
Conference tournaments are great from a fan's perspective
but if I’m a player I’m asking myself what’s the point? Didn’t we already play a 16 game schedule to see who’s the best? Especially for smaller conferences such as the Southland, the conference tournament relegates the regular season to no more than warm up games, seeing as how there will never be an at-large bid from that conference. I believe the Ivy League got it right. No conference tourney, winner of regular season gets automatic bid.
Texas finished 13-3 in the conference and if they had ended conference on an 11 game winning streak and not began on one, then I think we’d all agree that the tourney doesn’t matter.
Do not be distracted by what you see, but be transformed by what you believe.
Brackets
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/bracketology
This does not look to bad to me. Whatever it takes not to be shipped out West would be nice. does 1 win do that?
seeding
The tournament will determine what seed Texas gets. If they lose their first game then they could be a #4 seed. If they win a game or two they can be a #2.
I personally want to see them go pretty far just to give them/me confidence going into the tourney because I don’t have much right now.
Returning to top form
The most important thing to me is that they return to their dominating form that led them to be 11-0 in conference and race out to double-digit leads and wins. (Yes, there were plenty of nit-picky issues during that run but until we’re back at that level of play I’m willing to put those aside.) That is what they need to get to the Elite Eight and the Final Four. If they can play at that level, then there is no doubt that they will be in the Big 12 Tournament Championship game with a really good chance to win it.
So do they need to win the whole Big 12 tournament? Probably not. But I do think they need to get to the Championship game as proof that they have returned to form. (And I know, just because they make the Championship game that does not mean they are playing their best. But they won’t make it that far playing like they did in their recent losses, so it will mean there has been improvement.)
If Texas would have mixed up their loses, I would say no.
They would be a 2 seed whether they won it all or lost the first game. Having lost 3 of the last 5, I think they fall to 3 with an early loss, shocked and pissed if they become a 4. If they win it all and beat a KSU, they remain a 2. They win it all and beat KU, they have an outside chance to be a 1. All that said, my preference is to take the 2 and have the rest of not playing in it.
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
For Texas this year...probably not a big deal
When you get down to it I don’t really see all that much difference twixt a two, three, or four seed. You should been in good shape to win the first round game. And, if your are a four or better seed and lose in the first round….well that would be telling! If we were a #1 seed we might get San Antonio and that would be good…..but its highly unlikely thats gonna happen even if we win the tournament.
If we were on the bubble or outside the bubble, the tournament would be a big deal. But again, thats not this year.
Finally, the tournament is a big deal for the conference…more dough!
Great players make great coaches, but great coaches make champions." DKR circa 1964
Winning is contagious.
If you really want to create a sustainable winning culture for any organization, you cannot pick and choose when you play well and when you don’t.
I agree with those saying it's a confidence thing
I have always been a big “feel” guy when it comes to following teams. After the win at Baylor, my feeling on this group is that they’re on a precipice and could fall either way heading into the season’s money moments. I think it matters that they win a pair; they don’t have to win it all, but putting together 2 straight good efforts would give me (and hopefully them) back the sense of confidence that Houston is ours for the taking.
Useful as tuneup
The Big 12 tournament is not intrinsically meaningful but it can be used for useful purposes. Some years, the horns might as well drop the first game and get some rest before March Madness. This season, it happens that the horns offense has gone South just before March Madness so it is a good time to tinker with offensive scheme mechanics to see if the horns can recover the offensive magic.
The key is to generate good shots for Jordan so he does not have to work hard to get those shots (so he can play more minutes), knows when he is supposed to shoot so he does not jack up a bad shot, and does not have to create his own shot (not his strength). Jordan really benefits from offensive structure. Curls for Jordan need to get him the ball closer to the bucket so he is not shooting fallaways from 3 point land. Need to post up Jordan more against smaller defenders so Jordan can just turn and shoot his fallaway (this also punishes foes for defending Jordan with a smaller, quicker player). Need to use Jordan more as a screener to get him the ball on the roll after the pick. Like to see more picks for Jordan where he already has the ball and can take one dribble before rising up for the 3. This requires that the picker sets the pick before the hedger can get there. Need more inside out. Once Jordan is hitting again, the whole team’s confidence will climb some.
One useful thing about the Big 12 tournament is that, since it is played on consecutive nights, it reminds coaches that fatigue is a huge issue when you play in a tournament. Might want to play some zone and lengthen the bench (when possible) just to save the players’ legs. The NCAA tournament always has a rest day between the games each week but the players are still not as fresh for the second game of the weekend as for the first.
I love conference tourneys, but
nothing irks me more than making it all the way to the championship game and losing. Basically, you have exhausted yourself for 3 straight days with nothing to show for it except tired legs heading into the NCAA tourney.
Sorry off topic, but I’ll be in Vegas for the first week of the NCAA tourney as I am every year because its simply the best time to go. If you havent been that time of year I highly recommend it.
If playing well in the tourney is a guarantee to positively affect seeding, then I really want them to win.
However, it’s still arguable as to how much weight the committee actually puts on the conf. tourney results. At least the Big twelve Tourney was moved up so the committee has a chance to reflect upon the results and make adjustments. A few years ago, it seemed almost irrelevant how teams in the big 12 tourney performed, assuming no crazy upset win in the championship game.
usually
i dont care too much for conference tourneys but this yr, i think it’s important for the team to at least make it to the finals to get our confidence back to where it was and to get that nasty swagger back.
also, wouldn’t it be super nice to beat Kansas again?
I understand your question, and I have the perfect answer...
…it depends.
For this team, playing well and winning two games is probably pretty important. They are still in confidence-rebuilding mode so yeah, they need to get the W’s in those games. If they lose the championship game that’s ok. In fact, maybe it helps provide some hunger entering La Danza Grande.
If Texas would have cruised thru the regular season as we thought they might (5 games ago, anyway) then losing the first game of the tournament would have been eyebrow-raising but no big deal. They still would have been a #1 seed and could have rested for East West Virginia State Tech. Similarly, if Kansas loses their first Big 12 tournament game it probably isn’t a huge deal to them. They’ll be playing at a #1 or #2 regardless, and Northern Iowa isn’t even IN the tournament this year (ba-ZING!).
We're going to play like we're in a bad mood.
It's kind of a Catch 22 for the Texas team.
We really could use the rest as we seem to be dragging some serious ass lately. Especially in the second half of games when guys are tired.
On the other hand, we could use as much practice as possible before the NCAA to let guys like Hamilton get some of their confidence back. As a team, we are in a notable shooting slump. The only consistency as of late has been TT.
My vote is the guys suck it up, get as far as they can in the Big 12 tourney, and try to regain some of that chemistry, confidence, and swagger.
"I asked Darrell Royal, the coach of the Texas Longhorns, why he didn’t recruit me and he said: "Well, Walt, we took a look at you and you weren’t any good.
- Walt Garrison
by 512 on Mar 8, 2011 8:51 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Interesting
t o see the conflicting emotions on this one. Seems like the consensus is that anyone foolish enough to challenge the Horns on the court should feel the wrath of the Longhorn Nation, and therefore the Big 12 tournament matters.
But if the Big 12 tournament in any way negatively effects the result in the real tournament, then it doesn’t matter.
And if it positively effect the results in the real tournament, it matters again!
Can we just get rid of the godforsaken thing?
"Football doesn't build character. It eliminates the weak ones." DKR
HELLO!
You play… to win… the game!
Seriously, the dude was not kidding. Very unlikely we win the NCAA tournament. About a 1/4 chance we win the Big 12 tourney and they are not mutually exclusive (and actually may be correlated). So let’s win.
by Erasmus Funderburke on Mar 8, 2011 10:03 PM CST reply actions
I believe
they’ve moved the championship game up this year as well (from Sunday to Saturday). It’ll now be more likely to have an effect on seeding than in past years when the game ended moments before selection.
Also, if we go to playing each conference team twice during the regular season next year b/c of only 10 teams, then it seems the conference tournament as an actual gauge of the best team will be even less important.
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