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The One and Done: Should the NBA Change It?  Why?

With three of our top players declaring for the draft (although I would be surprised if Joseph didn't return), the optimism for the basketball season took a huge blow.  It probably makes it worse that we were knocked out of the NCAA tournament because a referee had trouble counting to five, leaving us with an empty feeling of an unfinished mission.  The departure of these players, especially Thompson, has reopened the discussion around here on early exits to the NBA draft, particularly the so-called "one and done" phenomenon.  It has obviously been a source of debate and controversy ever since the NBA put the age limit in place, and you will find plenty of college basketball fans who despise the rule for a variety of reasons.

However, I have normally found the a lot of the popular arguments against the age limit confused.  I addressed this topic a few years ago, and I pointed out that getting angry at the NCAA fails to appreciate who has the power here:  The NBA is the one who decides the age limit, and the NCAA can't do anything about it.  Thus, arguments that basically say, "The NCAA needs to do something" and "This is bad for college basketball" are not only questionable to begin with, they don't tell us why the NBA should care if it's not hurting their league.  Another example of these unconvincing arguments comes from this article by Pat Forde, where he rails against the age limit because it supposedly screwed over Josh Selby of Kansas.  In essence, Forde argues that the "one and done" situation is a sham that forces players to spend a year in school that wastes their time, wastes the school's time and resources, and endangers these talented players' futures in the NBA,

I do not mind Pat Forde, but I found the article pretty suspect in its arguments, and I will primarily be interacting with what he wrote in this post.  In doing so, I hope to address some questions surrounding the one and done, get some discussion going about it, and also argue this:  The age limit rule is perfectly within the NBA's rights, it doesn't always wastes the time of schools and players, and it doesn't endanger these players' future careers.

Star-divide

To summarize Selby's story, Selby was a highly touted prospect who suffered through eligibility issues and injuries last year at Kansas.  He has decided to enter the NBA draft and may be drafted far lower than he otherwise would have been if he came out as a high school senior.  This is the emotional driving point of Forde's article.

To start, while I am sympathetic to Selby, as most people probably are, it is a bit dangerous to take one anecdote and universalize it.  After all, we can sit here and list a host of players who came straight out of high school and were destroyed by their lack of readiness or otherwise never developed into great stars.  Kwame Brown, for instance, had legitimate talent but never got it together mentally.  Should we parade him around as the poster child of the dangers of coming straight out of high school?  Even the myriad of successful players straight out of high school, such as Kobe, KG, McGrady, and Amare, did not make large impacts their first couple of years.  The only player who really came in and played at a high level consistently from the get-go was Lebron James.

In addition, I am frankly unsure why the age limit should be blamed for Selby struggling to qualify for Kansas.  The NBA's job isn't to be a safety net for kids who don't have good grades; it's to present a high level of basketball to the public (and they have; these playoffs have been good and look to get better past the first round).  I do not know why Selby had trouble qualifying and I will not speculate, and it seems like he had a very rough childhood.  However, it's just not the NBA's responsibility to know if high schoolers are meeting college minimum requirements.  The fact that he had eligibility issues from the very beginning may say a whole lot more about college recruiting than it does about the NBA's age rule.  Who, by the way, forced the Jayhawks to offer a scholarship to Selby?  They no doubt knew the issues going in and were willing to deal with them.

Forde also argues that the fact Selby was there and was able to finish devalues KU's academics:

Selby's failure to finish the spring semester should theoretically hurt the program's Academic Progress Rating, but Self was quoted as saying at the time of Selby's announcement that he "worked with his professors to complete his work for the second semester."

If that's true -- that a borderline student out of high school was able to finish his semester's work weeks ahead of time without attending class -- then every degree the school has ever granted has been cheapened. But that's just part of what makes the Selby story a sorry one.

Maybe so, but is this really unique to Selby?  Does Forde provide the slightest bit of evidence that only one-and-done athletes struggle academically and have to be helped in this manner?  And if all this is true, again I ask:  Who forced KU to take in Selby?  If Kansas wanted to protect their academic perception, they easily could have passed on Selby.  They didn't, so any damage to their reputation, real or imagined, falls squarely on their shoulders (and I am not arguing that they actually did damage anything).  Colleges offer borderline athletes all the time, some of who are not able to go to the NBA straight out of high school.  Again, this seems to say more about college athletics than the NBA.

Self said the so-called one-and-done rule is "a bad rule." Like most other logical basketball people, he'd prefer a set-up similar to the baseball rules, which allow players to sign pro contracts out of high school -- but if they go to college, they're committed for three seasons.

This doesn't sound like a bad idea at face value, but I am not sure if it is justifiable.  First of all, there are plenty of "logical" basketball people who disagree.  Secondly, why does it have to be like baseball?  I am not sure why the MLB set up the rules this way, but baseball is very different from basketball.  Basketball does not have a farm system, and physical development is far more important for basketball than baseball because it is a contact sport that puts more value on athleticism.  Furthermore, what about those players who aren't ready to go right after high school but are ready after one or two years?  I don't think many people will argue that Thompson benefited greatly from one year in college.  Heck, even Durant benefited from his lone year at Texas, becoming a superstar and guaranteeing himself one of the top two spots in the draft.  As much as I would have loved to see more years of KD in burnt orange, how is it more fair to force such players to stay even longer when they are ready to go after one or two seasons?  What if they suffer injuries along the way?  If that happens, then Forde's argument just backfires.

Forde does bring up a possible farm system here:

I'd take the baseball analogy a step further: The NBA needs to make its Developmental League a truly viable and encouraged option -- a real minor league like baseball has -- for teenagers who want to play pro ball but don't want to go to college. The NBA owes that much to all interested parties.

WHY does the NBA owe this?  It doesn't sound like a bad idea, but again, what would compel the NBA to do this?  It is my belief that they instituted the age limit to protect the quality of their game and to stop the tide of franchises desperately searching for the next Lebron James and taking huge risks on 18 year olds.  By treating the D-league as just a farm system, that still doesn't address the fact that many high schoolers will enter the draft--some of who may not be ready--and that many a stupid GM will spend a high pick on them only to dump them into the D-league.  Keep in mind that there are only two rounds in the NBA draft and it is absolutely nothing like the baseball draft, and draft picks carry MUCH more value in the NBA.  In other words, the NBA has a lot more incentive to protect the value of their draft, so even with the existence of the D-league the age limit may make sense.

Forde closes with this curious demand:

Spare the schools from enabling a sham that makes a mockery of education. Spare the franchises from babysitting unprepared and/or immature teenagers. And spare the fans from being force-fed the big lie.

Let me ask a simple question:  Did one-and-dones exist before the age rule?  Of course.  Carmello Anthony is the most easily recognized example.  I am unsure why writers persist to pretend that the one-and-done is a new phenomenon.  Where was the great public fury then?  The age rule is not "enabling" these schools to do anything they weren't already doing.  I have no idea where Forde is even pulling this from.

In addition, this stuff about sparing franchises from babysitting teenagers is absolutely perplexing considering his article was arguing for the removal of the age limit.  If the NBA does not want franchises babysitting immature teenagers, they sure as heck aren't going to let kids straight out of high school come into the league.  If Forde really wants this, then he will be in favor of a stricter age limit, one that requires players to be 20 (David Stern's preference) or 21.  Of course, then this whole story about Selby kind of falls short of its intended goal because Forde was contending that the NBA screwed him over for not allowing him to come at 18.  If they don't want to "babysit," why would they want an 18 year old Selby?

I am not sure what "lie" Forde thinks we are being "force-fed," but I know full well that players may leave early.  I knew this before the age minimum and I know this now.  Am I disappointed, as a Horns fan, that Thompson is leaving early?  Sure.  However, I am also happy for him and wish him the best, and I'm glad he got to improve at the 40 acres.  I think even those who question if Thompson is ready right now would admit that he would definitely be ready after next season.  Why would the NBA force him to stay?  Why would they want to miss out on a talent like him, and how would that be fair to him if he suffered a major injury his junior year? 

What happened to Selby stinks, but it's hardly the NBA's fault as Forde thinks.  He fails to think about the myriad of players who want to go to college for a variety of personal reasons:  Maybe they just want to experience college for a year or two, maybe they want to develop their game, maybe it has been a personal dream to play for X school, etc.  He's telling them, with his proposed rule, that if they make that decision to go to school, they have to stay there for three years even if they are ready to go.  I am not comfortable with this because I don't see how this is more fair to these players.  Besides, as I have hinted, it says absolutely nothing about its profitability to the NBA.

As a Horns fan, I know we've been hit with some bad luck with early departures (Ford, Aldridge, Durant, Augustin, and now TT and Hamilton).  However, I will not blame anyone for that, because most of those players were ready to go.  I'm happy we had TT and KD for a year, and I don't think their tenures at Texas were "shams" at all; I proudly consider them part of our school's athletic tradition now.  It was not a waste of our school's resources to provide a place for them to get some education and also develop their game.  It was not a waste of their time, as Durant has made clear that he loves Texas.  And it was not a waste of our time, because watching KD play will remain among my fondest basketball memories.

Forde's sympathy for Selby is noted, but his anger is misplaced.  That is not a story to use to attack the age rule.

In any case, I'll turn it to the community.  Do you like the age minimum?  If not, what do you think would be a reasonable and justifiable solution to this?

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I'm not sure it's worth debating, because the age limit isn't going anywhere. If anything, it will be increased to two years.

The NBA prefers to let colleges train the players because it is much cheaper for the teams. It sucks for the best players that could go pro early, but the NBAPA doesn’t contain any future players, so they are willing to give up the ability to go pro early for more money for the current players.

by Texas Wahoo on Apr 23, 2011 5:15 PM CDT reply actions  

These would be the 3 things I’d like to see happen. I think these actions would improve the NBA product as well as college.

1.) HS kids would be eligible for the draft

2.) If a HS player did not enter the draft they would have to spend 3 years away from the NBA. This could be 3 years playing overseas or in college or a combination of the two.

3.) Pay players in college. I’m not saying pay them a salary but I think there should be a monthly stipend for the players as well as some financial incentive tied to academics and graduating.

by maninblack on Apr 23, 2011 5:20 PM CDT reply actions  

Tooooooooo Many Ones and Dones..I am out...

until they fix the mess. Should be a minimum of two, maybe three years, before they NBA.
It ruins the team identification for the fans and ruins any building of a coherent “team” with multiyear players. This mindset has ruined the NBA now as well, with all the Lebronsian antics essentially ruining the intent of the draft – to introduce parity, thus making the game more interesting.

I’M DONE WITH COLLEGE/UT HOOPS UNTIL THEY FIX THIS PROBLEM.

by ghostofbevo on Apr 23, 2011 5:46 PM CDT reply actions  

The debate from the standpoint of which is better for the players and protecting them, the franchises, and the schools may be a bit contested. But, personally, I hate the rule. As much as I love that guys like Thompson and Durant came to Texas instead of possibly jumping right into th NBA, the one and done rule has turned the game into get one phenomenal recruiting class and go all-in that one year. Also, while there were always players who left after one year, it seems like the number of players leaving after one year has grown after this rule was implement (I’d be interested to see actual numbers). It seems to me like this rule has made the end of season dreadful, and offers less hope. Sure, you can be excited about the next good recruit coming in, but what if he’s a bust? It doesn’t offer you the ability to be excited at the end of the season and say “I can’t wait to see Thompson thrash KU next season.” Anyways, that’s my stream of conscious thoughts on it. I’d like to see the rule removed, or at least switched to two years in school.

by LonghornDan on Apr 23, 2011 7:28 PM CDT reply actions  

Three years

just like baseball. And let them set up their own farm system instead of using us.

We have a 12th man and he's Bryan Harsin

by SpiritOfTheFedora on Apr 23, 2011 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

there arent any "teams" in college anymore

one and done is killing team chemistry for big name schools. They focus their offense though a freshmen and come the next season they have to basically start all over. Look at the past couple of NCAA champions, how many highly recruited one & done freshmen have been on those rosters? The problem is these guys only dreamed of playing in the NBA, if they didnt have to go to college then they wouldnt. I agree with maninblack make it so either you go straight to the NBA or go to college and have to stay 2-3 years. After a while the NBA will slow down on draftin players out of HS when more and more of these guys dont pan out

"Stability is a factor in teams that win the championship. But if you stabilize on a team that's going to end up short of that, then all you're doing is spinning your wheels in the 45-win range."-----Daryl Morey

by fanoflosingteams on Apr 23, 2011 7:36 PM CDT reply actions  

Comes Down to What You Believe College Athletic Programs are For

If you believe that college athletics programs should be a free for all, where everyone is in it for themselves – perpetually, incessantly, unendingly and without regard for anything other than what’s best for each individual every at any given moment in time (and two seconds from now that could change so better give everyone every option that’s available to them at a particular millisecond) then, sure, TES, the argument you put forward has merit.

If, however, you believe that sometimes in life people should be called upon to make sacrifices for the greater good, for moments beyond the very millisecond they’re living, that by INVESTING some time in something the return often is far greater than cashing in and spending every second of life and breath on the planet in the now then a contrary argument exists that calls for a minimum of time in a program before being allowed to take off.

Taking this argument out of college athletics for a moment and putting it into the classroom and purpose of a university and a college degree (hmmm, college, classroom’s what a novel consideration for college athletics!!) think about the true value of a college degree. How many people who graduate from college end up in a career that they studied for? I don’t have anything other than an anecdotal answer, but the vast majority of people I meet never studied for their careers, yet they have degrees in something else. Having spent time working with recruiters and HR professionals they will almost universally say that the discipline a job candidate studies for is far less important to them than whether or not the candidate graduated. Their are hordes of people who begin college but never finish it. But why would it matter more if someone applying for a financial analyst position has a degree in Art History than someone who studied finance but is lacking only six semester hours for their degree? Because there is infinitely more value for the candidate who can finish what they’ve started. Lots of brilliant people exist, but only a percentage of them also have the inner discipline to follow through on the grand ideas that occupy their heads. And in the real world life separates the dreamers from the doers, doers being far more in demand.

If the job of a university is to encourage the development of more dreamers, who are ill-prepared for real life, than to encourage the development of doers then why even offer four-year degrees in the first place? And taking this back to college athletics, why even offer these young athletes scholarships in the first place if they will never (or rarely) finish what they started?

This era of “get mine, now” teaches youngsters values that will ultimately fail them in life. Sure, you can say chase the $1M signing bonus, which will be more money than most readers of BON will earn if not in a lifetime than in a few decades. But without the sense of value that goes with the money far too many of them will make most other important decisions they face in life with the same short-sightedness and end up making terrible investments, blowing it on cars, bling, whores and drugs – and end up not far from where they started.

These kids are getting offered educational opportunities that other kids they grow up with could only dream of, and it’s assigned the value of winning a stuffed animal at the carnival – might impress the date for the night, but a year later who remembers it? It’s a tragedy, both to the athlete (how can they be called student-athlete’s when the study part is a LOL joke?) and to the kids they grow up with, who watch them and wish to emulate them.

College football and baseball have got it down far better than college basketball. And if it’s not the colleges, but rather the pro’s that are responsible, then shame on the NBA for not caring as much about the human beings they employ as the NFL and MLB do.

College athletics should be about teaching kids lessons in life that keeping it real on the streets will never provide. Let them learn the value of deferred gratification, both for themselves and for something bigger than themselves, the team they belong to. Let them learn that by investing in their future’s they’ll earn much more in return than a seemingly large payday could provide. And let them learn that in most cases the payday that awaits them if they are willing to invest the time will end up being larger because they’ll have more experience that will guide them and they’ll be more likely to achieve more as doers than dime-a-dozen dreamers.

by RMHorn on Apr 23, 2011 8:41 PM CDT reply actions  

Wow...
If you believe that college athletics programs should be a free for all, where everyone is in it for themselves – perpetually, incessantly, unendingly and without regard for anything other than what’s best for each individual every at any given moment in time (and two seconds from now that could change so better give everyone every option that’s available to them at a particular millisecond) then, sure, TES, the argument you put forward has merit.

You might find this helpful.

by TheElusiveShadow on Apr 23, 2011 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wow II

You asked for a dialogue on subject but then go for a personal slam. Hmm, maybe you might find this and this helpful.

by RMHorn on Apr 23, 2011 11:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

You have a bizarre sense of "dialogue" and "personal slam"

I pointed out, accurately, that you failed to address my post but presented in a caricature. Thus, you didn’t engage in “dialogue,” if you wish to, don’t build a straw man. It’s a simple as that. I didn’t attack you personally, but apparently you took it that way.

by TheElusiveShadow on Apr 23, 2011 11:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

If You Want to See Real Straw Man Argument

Then endure any speech by our President.

But my points and reply to your post was accurate. Your post presented a wholly individual player perspective, giving no regard to the institution, the concept of a team and placed no value on the scholarships the athletes receive. My post pointed that out and brought in considerations you gave short shrift to.

by RMHorn on Apr 24, 2011 12:57 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

+101

When the world slips you a jeffrey, stroke the furry wall.

by burntorangehorn on Apr 25, 2011 7:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'll play along for now, RMHorn, although you insist on putting words in others' mouths

First of all, you obviously didn’t read the post carefully.

Your post presented a wholly individual player perspective, giving no regard to the institution, the concept of a team and placed no value on the scholarships the athletes receive.

I did no such thing. I argued from the perspective of the university (such as Kansas) as well as the NBA. That should be obvious just from reading the post. If it was just a wholly individual player perspective, you would find me in support of eliminating the age rule. I am not, because I can see how, from the NBA’s perspective, this is not helpful, and I can see that school’s can still stand to benefit from one-and-dones. That made the majority of your post pretty much useless. Not only that, I specifically stated in the post that it is foolish to rail against the NCAA or the schools since they are not the ones responsible for the rules, yet you that’s basically what you did. You only showed awareness of the NBA’s power with this:

And if it’s not the colleges, but rather the pro’s that are responsible, then shame on the NBA for not caring as much about the human beings they employ as the NFL and MLB do.

Not only is a bit naive (you really think the NFL and MLB don’t have what’s good for their league in mind?), it is presumptuous. What about the NBA’s rule shows that they don’t care about human beings? In fact, Forde’s article argues that because of the age rule that PREVENTED Selby from going pro when he wanted to, the NBA screwed him over. Yet here you are arguing that the NBA doesn’t care about human beings by forcing people to stay in school longer than they want. Which is more or less humane? You have to build an argument, not just assume.

Nowhere in my post did I devalue the concept of a team or scholarships. What I argued against were pat answers to the age rule that the NBA (I repeat, the NBA) instituted, because it is a complicated subject that involves players, institutions, and the league. What I hoped to get discussion on was how to address this situation with ALL parties in mind. Instead, you just assumed that people who disagree with you devalue teamwork and scholarships and ranted against that. Your post was not accurate by any means of the imagination; you just got on a pedestal and accused others’ of beliefs that they do not hold.

by TheElusiveShadow on Apr 24, 2011 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

What I Read and What You Think You Wrote Are In Conflict

TES, your post only made passing reference to the concerns of the colleges, “Who, by the way, forced the Jayhawks to offer a scholarship to Selby?” being the only real mention on a few occasions. No where else in the post do you even entertain schools as a concern, other than fulfilling a role of a development league. It is YOU, TES, who ignored the party that I focused on, schools; your protestation that your concern for ALL parties in mind rings hollow given that.

To ignore that party, really the only party I care about (and in theory what is supposed to bind us as Longhorn fans together) communicates a total lack of concern for the sport of college basketball. Sure, the NBA has its interests, and of course the individual players have their own interests. But where, cite one portion of your post where you shared a concern about college basketball other than to slam KU for offering a dumb dumb athlete a scholarship in the first place? You didn’t, I’ve read and re-read your OP and its not there. So don’t slam me for my comments that bring in that party and get on your high horse, and toss condescending little jabs towards someone for have the temerity to include the concerns of colleges, the most significant party that we as supposed fans of college sports should have on a place like BON. It is YOU, TES, who is trying to defend your OP by attacking someone for participating in a discussion – a discussion you pretended you were interested in!

The simple fact of the matter is the current system is all F’d up if you are a fan of college basketball. Is the new normal supposed to be “who’s playing for our team this year?”, every single year? That’s NBA-like, it’s why I could care less about the NBA. College sports separate themselves from the pros because they’ve always been about the school, not the individual. It seems as though football and baseball have developed a balance that works, but basketball is broken.

You can put forth an argument for why basketball players develop differently and why the current system is needed but I can call hogwash on that argument and make counter-arguments as to why football and baseball players need to be allowed to go pro earlier than basketball. Football is inherently more violent, dangerous, and subjects players to injuries far more often than basketball. Those kids (under your logic) should be allowed to go pro earlier so they don’t blow millions to blown out knees and shoulders in college. Baseball players should be allowed to go pro earlier because their peers who signed to professional contracts right out of high school have an inherent advantage by being in a farm system, are making hundreds of thousands of dollars doing the same thing kids in college do for “free”. Just a matter of fairness, huh?

Gimme a break, they’re all young adults with athletic ability who have options when they graduate from high school. All I’m saying is that kids who accept scholarships to basketball should be committed to the schools that offer them. Just like football and baseball today have struck a balance that works, basketball should be no different. Shame on the NBA for exploiting the young adults the way they do.

That said, every single interested party (NBA, NCAA, Players) is working within the current system to try to make things work out to their own advantage. As evidenced by half of the Final Four participants this year, longevity in a system is a great equalizer to raw talent recruited by big programs like UT. The character of the young men who must persevere to be successful instead of relying on God-given talent alone is truly what colleges were created to instill in young minds. Just because a kid can dunk, throw or hit a ball isn’t enough to be a student athlete worthy of a scholarship. That’s why graduation rates are measured and reported by the NCAA. It matters. One and done’s typically don’t graduate, and by definition they don’t graduate on scholarships.

So to answer the question to your OP, yes, I do think the NBA should change it for the reasons expressed here and in the earlier posts. Civil rights, slavery, all that is pure nonsense, accepting a scholarship should be just like every other contract in life, followed through on, and breaking it is breaking a deal that should be subject to penalty, just like in every other contract in life.

And without minimizing the importance and validity of the argument I put forth, something that would minimize the impact of broken commitments by kids jumping to the NBA after one season would be to increase the number of scholarships available to basketball programs. Doing so would dilute the adverse impact of one and dones because programs would have more talented players to fall back on who will stay in a system. Add another 3-5 and more impact players will be available to develop into starting roles – as long as the NBA doesn’t then follow up by adding more rounds to their draft so they can poach even more.

by RMHorn on Apr 24, 2011 8:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Again, RMHorn, more accusations rather than dealing with arguments

This is getting a bit tiresome.

But where, cite one portion of your post where you shared a concern about college basketball other than to slam KU for offering a dumb dumb athlete a scholarship in the first place? You didn’t, I’ve read and re-read your OP and its not there. So don’t slam me for my comments that bring in that party and get on your high horse, and toss condescending little jabs towards someone for have the temerity to include the concerns of colleges, the most significant party that we as supposed fans of college sports should have on a place like BON. It is YOU, TES, who is trying to defend your OP by attacking someone for participating in a discussion – a discussion you pretended you were interested in!

You must be joking. You either aren’t reading or aren’t reading carefully.

They didn’t, so any damage to their reputation, real or imagined, falls squarely on their shoulders (and I am not arguing that they actually did damage anything).

It was PAT FORDE who alleged that Kansas’ academic reputation took a hit because of Selby. I pointed out that EVEN IF THIS IS TRUE, and I make clear that I DO NOT AGREE, the final responsibility falls on KU because nobody required them to offer a scholarship to anyone. The responsibility is not the NBA’s, as Forde alleges. THIS is what I was addressing. Personally, I do not blame KU at all, and I actually applaud the efforts they put forth to help Selby along in college. But I was answering a specific charge by Forde. This should be crystal clear to anyone who read the post with any care or fairness. Yet here you are, again accusing me of not caring about the schools are making fun of KU for admitting a “dumb dumb athlete” when I did no such thing.

The simple fact of the matter is the current system is all F’d up if you are a fan of college basketball. Is the new normal supposed to be "who’s playing for our team this year?", every single year? That’s NBA-like, it’s why I could care less about the NBA. College sports separate themselves from the pros because they’ve always been about the school, not the individual. It seems as though football and baseball have developed a balance that works, but basketball is broken.

Whether or not you like the NBA is not an argument. This is not the discussion I wanted; I couldn’t care less what you PREFER. What I’m looking for is a solution that takes in mind ALL PARTIES, including the NBA, who is routinely forgotten in this discussion, which is annoying to me because they are the ones with final say. In other words, what’s a solution that makes sense for the NBA as well as for college? That’s the only way the NBA will budge on anything, not rants about your preferences.

Gimme a break, they’re all young adults with athletic ability who have options when they graduate from high school. All I’m saying is that kids who accept scholarships to basketball should be committed to the schools that offer them. Just like football and baseball today have struck a balance that works, basketball should be no different. Shame on the NBA for exploiting the young adults the way they do.

Again mere assertions without supporting arguments. As I made clear in my post, football and baseball ARE DIFFERENT. You have to address these differences before you just say that basketball should adopt the same system. Furthermore, you persist in pretending that the NFL and MLB adopted their rules out of their pure goodness of their hearts; the NFL, for example, has this rule in place because they sincerely believes it protects the quality of their game. You do remember the Maurice Clarett fiasco, right? They didn’t force him to stay because they felt like he should honor his commitment to Ohio State, a school he wasn’t even going to anymore. They wanted him out of the draft because they don’t want, in their view, a flood of young players who are not physically ready entering the draft. The NBA, being a different sport, only shares this concern up to the age of 19 or 20. They’re both using the exact same reasoning, but because of the differences in the sport they’ve enacted different rules. How is this “exploiting,” at least any different than the NFL? Let me ask you: Is allowing high schoolers into the league “exploiting” as opposed to 20 year olds? Why or why not?


That said, every single interested party (NBA, NCAA, Players) is working within the current system to try to make things work out to their own advantage.

I’m glad you have that figured out.

As evidenced by half of the Final Four participants this year, longevity in a system is a great equalizer to raw talent recruited by big programs like UT.

A flawed argument brought in by recent events. Check out the link that I had in my post. In that one, I referenced an article in the Daily Texan who was decrying the one-and-done situation because it made things more difficult for the “little guy.” This was an argument repeated a lot during that time because we saw guys like Blake Griffin, KD, and Michael Beasley dominate in the game and saw, for the first time, all four number 1 seeds enter the Final Four. You need to think back longer than two years.


The character of the young men who must persevere to be successful instead of relying on God-given talent alone is truly what colleges were created to instill in young minds. Just because a kid can dunk, throw or hit a ball isn’t enough to be a student athlete worthy of a scholarship. That’s why graduation rates are measured and reported by the NCAA. It matters. One and done’s typically don’t graduate, and by definition they don’t graduate on scholarships.

Even if this is all correct (I’d have to check your numbers on one and dones graduating; at least to my knowledge KD is still coming to UT for class), I will repeat myself in my post: This seems to say more about these universities than the NBA. If you don’t think they’re worthy of a scholarship, then call your athletic department and tell them you don’t appreciate them offering one. This is the NBA’s fault… how (once again, this was going on long before the age rule)? This is exactly what I am talking about. You can’t just get on a soapbox and moan about what you think is wrong with how colleges offer scholarship. Offer a solution that takes into account all parties, which you consistently do not do.

So to answer the question to your OP, yes, I do think the NBA should change it for the reasons expressed here and in the earlier posts. Civil rights, slavery, all that is pure nonsense, accepting a scholarship should be just like every other contract in life, followed through on, and breaking it is breaking a deal that should be subject to penalty, just like in every other contract in life.

I am certain that the “contract” does not require them to stay all four years or face a penalty. They are only required to stay if they want to receive the scholarship; if they don’t want it, it’s gone, but that does not mean they have to pay some sort of penalty. If you are in favor of a penalty, let me ask: What kind of penalty? On the school? On the player? What kind would be fair and legal?

And without minimizing the importance and validity of the argument I put forth, something that would minimize the impact of broken commitments by kids jumping to the NBA after one season would be to increase the number of scholarships available to basketball programs.

Perhaps an interesting discussion but an irrevelant one. This won’t solve the one-and-done situation because players will still be leaving; this will only make college basketball more likable for people who prefer it, like you. Again, this is no argument.

For the last time, stop just accusing others of having beliefs and then attacking that; actually answer what they are saying.

by TheElusiveShadow on Apr 24, 2011 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, Answer What They're Saying!

Still, all those words and not one mention of the college’s interest, which goes to the heart of my contention and is repeatedly ignored by you. You bring up KU as the only example, and that’s by citing Forde. Not once do you supposedly speak for that interest, not once.

Obviously not a concern for you since in all of these tiresome posts back and forth and in your OP you never care enough to mention the rightful concern of the institution. Not once. Even after it’s been pointed out you fail to do so.

You’re obviously a proponent of having college basketball become an official farm system of the pros. You can only assert that the young basketball players are different than football or baseball but that’s only your opinion biased by your perspective. I presented other opinions from other perspectives that would legitimize the concerns of football and baseball over basketball, but you dismiss them. Man, you are one closed-minded person.

Look, TES, I’ve enjoyed your posts on different subjects, but it’s my observation that you’ve got this one all wrong, and your blinders are on that prevent you from even seeing an argument for the concerns of college programs and the fans that follow them.

If you can’t even acknowledge that then we have nothing left to discuss on this subject, you’re simply choosing to remain ignorant and dismissive of any perspective you don’t agree with. Next time don’t pretend to open up a debate if you’re not prepared to engage in it.

by RMHorn on Apr 25, 2011 12:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

"all those words and not one mention of the college’s interest, which goes to the heart of my contention"

RM, would you kindly show us where the college’s interest is enforceable by anything stronger than persuasion or else STFU.

by OldTimeHorn on Apr 25, 2011 12:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

Dope a Dope

This was purportedly put out there as a discussion about one and done and whether or not the system should be changed. Yet all you and the other proponents of college as minor league athletics where poor aggrieved athletes are asked to be students at the colleges they attend can focus on is the player and his right to play professionally.

All I’ve tried to do is highlight that college athletics is being poisoned by that attitude and approach, and that a balance that is struck like the one’s between the MLB and NFL and colleges should also be in place in the NBA. You idiots are like wind-up dolls, “he has a right”, “slavery”, “show me the money when it’s there, I might make less”.

I’ve cited examples like medical training or military commitments where education is paid for by making commitments – that are enforceable. You’ve cited personal insults.

You, OTH, STFU and eat a dick!

by RMHorn on Apr 25, 2011 12:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well, thank you for sharing...

Good luck with your campaign to curb the abuses perpetrated by amateur athletes.

And, RM, I had a classmate from high school who went to the Air Force Academy and then dropped out, without consequence. I had an uncle who went to Baylor Medical School on his promise to become a medical missionary. Once he got his grades up enough, he transferred to Southwestern. So much for your examples.

by OldTimeHorn on Apr 25, 2011 12:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

Great Examples...

That highlight why you and your gene pool stand in such strong defense of breaking commitments! Yes, if only the world was full of more people who break their word, also known as lie.

Fine, upstanding examples we should be teaching at an institution of higher learning to shape young minds. Your word is only as good as you can get away with not honoring it.

What a scumbag approach to life! I hope everyone who’s every entered in an agreement with you follows your advice – roofer takes your money, never does the job; wife marries you, then cheats on you takes all your money; employer promises you a paycheck, then goes out of business stiffing you; business partner promises 50-50 deal, then cuts you out for his son, sorry your agreement wasn’t in writing.

Yep, that’s the world of OTH, fine, fine place to live!

Oh yeah, the examples I gave were enforceable, if USAFA and Baylor chose not to enforce it was by choice, not because they didn’t have the legal right.

by RMHorn on Apr 25, 2011 1:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

Swimming in the sea of opinion

I said not one word in defense of breaking commitments.

I just did a book for the medical school in the state with the largest rural medicine program, and they were telling me they have a problem keeping students in the program and in the field after graduation. Would you like me to pass your name along as a legal expert on how to come down hard on such miscreants and force them to live up to their commitments?

by OldTimeHorn on Apr 25, 2011 1:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

You Did a Book!

So you finished coloring by numbers. Wow, good for you! Gold star, OTH!

by RMHorn on Apr 25, 2011 2:34 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Legal v Practical

There are ways to contractually enforce the commitments if initially drawn up that way. The problem isn’t one of legal enforceability, because legal contracts are. It’s a problem of practically enforcing it. Concerns like how much it will cost to sue for breach, public relations exposure, etc. enter into the equation.

What it ends up coming down to is the value of someone’s word, their honor. Based on your posts you clearly have no regard for commitments you make, and if you think you can get away with breaking your word you will. You, pal, clearly have no honor, have no concern beyond what you can get away with and gladly defend the ability of others to do the same. People with your values disgust me, I can’t now or ever relate.

by RMHorn on Apr 25, 2011 2:56 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Both of you?

Really, Elusive Shadow? Both of you?

I kept it on topic and never resorted to name-calling or vulgarity.

At first I was fascinated by RM’s magical thinking that pro-caliber amateur athletes would care a hoot about his Arthurian plea for “commitment.” I was also amazed by his wildly obtuse remarks to you and others.

And then, as he bore on with the commitment thing and the cheating wives and yada yada, I began to think it there’s a girl out there somewhere thinking of breaking up with this guy, things could get awfully ugly…

Chalk it up to the way your mind begins to dwell too much on morbid thoughts on a dark and stormy night. But, Elusive, when you start a comment thread and get comments that are on-topic and civil, I don’t think you should be calling the author out.

by OldTimeHorn on Apr 25, 2011 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, but not equally

I didn’t mean to call you out like you are doing the same things he is doing; I know you didn’t resort to name calling like “moron.” But your discussion with him was clearly devolving into that. I don’t have a problem with heated discussion and even sarcastic jabs at one another, but I think you can agree that the discussion below between you two got a bit out of hand.

by TheElusiveShadow on Apr 25, 2011 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thank you... I think.

No, I don’t agree that it got out of hand. Given the way your comments are formatted, I was quite confident that no reader of yours not as curious about RMHorn as I was would have to read it. And, no, I don’t devolve down to the level of name-calling and obscenity, Elusive.

by OldTimeHorn on Apr 25, 2011 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

I was more interested in just stopping it

Regardless of whose fault it was. We can disagree strongly, but I don’t want to scroll down and see this:

Spout your bullshit to someone else who you can try to bully with blind assertions and insults, but it won’t work with me, pal. Eat a dick, but then again that’d be you eating yourself.

I know that wasn’t you, but that makes me cringe so I just want it to stop. I’m almost regretful I wrote this post.

by TheElusiveShadow on Apr 25, 2011 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Now that you put it that way...

Well, yes, Elusive. I can see that it would’ve been proper of me to cease the exchange with RMHorn when he got so far out of line. I pursued it simply because I found him such a fascinatingly macabre character, and in doing so, I hijacked your comment thread for my own ends. For that, I apologize to you and any other readers who might’ve been offended.

by OldTimeHorn on Apr 25, 2011 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not saying you did anything wrong,

but I was a reader that was curious and thus read the dialogue and kept wondering, “Why does he continue to argue with this guy, this is going nowhere.” I think it’s best to ignore another commentor when they start getting overly hostile like that because BON has a tradition of being above that sort of behavior, distinguishing it from many others, and I wish we could avoid denigrating it by perpetuating the sort of thing that occurred here. I know I’m not a site editor and have to authority, so I’m doing nothing more than imploring you to let it go as soon as someone you are debating with becomes vulgar or insulting. I know it’s tough to let it go once it gets going, but I’ve had to do it myself several times out of respect for the site and those that work to keep it above the fray.

"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.

by HookTech on Apr 25, 2011 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

*no authority

"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.

by HookTech on Apr 25, 2011 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

yeh this turned into a major pissing contest

and it turned me off quite fast. i like the original post’s idea as it is a major factor in why, i think, college basketball has been replaced by college football in overall popularity.

by dukeoforange on Apr 25, 2011 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Go Back To Who Started Insults

Go back and read who started personally attacking who if you’re interested in keeping board up to standards. I NEVER attack someone personally for expressing their opinion – until they attack me. If you’re going to be demeaning, belittling, condescending and generally a jerk then I will respond in kind, and get real ghetto doing it. I can’t stand watching bullies try to insult and impose their view on others, even if the other person’s view is unpopular. This should be about free expression of thoughts without those kinds of attempts to shut it down.

Yes, I did go ghetto, but only after OTH first hurled the insults about me not supposedly not going to or graduating from UT (I have far more of an official connection to the university then he does, as an alumni and promoter of the university in my community then him or probably anyone else on this board), his attempt to belittle with his high school charge, his numskull comments, and more of the same.

Those are all attempts to devalue the points being made by someone you don’t agree with, and I will react with venom to that. So now OTH wears the “poor aggrieved me cap” and embraces you as his buddy protector?

If you don’t want to piss someone off to the extent that they insult you then be respectful of different opinions. I will never fire a first shot, NEVER! But when I fire back it is with every intention of being ruthless, I’m a street fighter, no gloves, and I’ll use whatever verbal weapon that’s at the ready. Disagreeing is fine, appropriate and a part of healthy debate, I relish that, encourage that, thrive on it.

Introducing insults to the mix is always unacceptable and will be met with fury.

by RMHorn on Apr 25, 2011 7:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe start off with some Winston Churchill-style insults

before moving on to those suggesting consumption of a well-seasoned tube steak.

"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.

by HookTech on Apr 26, 2011 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

An old lady told him at a party one time ...

… “Sir Churchill, you are drunk!” To which, Winston replied, “Yes, ma’am, I am drunk … and you are ugly … but at least I’ll be sober tomorrow!”

by robthecob on Apr 26, 2011 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Mea Culpa

Upon further review I was way outta line. Zero to nuclear not cool. I apologize to all in BON community. Temporary insanity!

by RMHorn on Apr 26, 2011 3:55 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

It's cool

I also could have been less combative in my replies. We all can have bad days and cross the line. I hope you keep posting.

by TheElusiveShadow on Apr 26, 2011 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

temporary insanity happens to the best of us.

Respect and appreciate the mea culpa

"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.

by HookTech on Apr 27, 2011 9:23 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

We do have a Fourteenth Amendment

And slavery went out with it. If people with talent prefer to get paid for that talent, more power to them.

by OldTimeHorn on Apr 23, 2011 10:50 PM CDT reply actions  

Free Education = Slavery?

So I guess football and baseball players at UT are slaves? Just suggesting that if these kids get scholarships they make a commitment, if they don’t like the terms of the scholarship (if system can be changed) they shouldn’t take them. That doesn’t equal slavery any more than any other scholarship that’s awarded to students with conditions is.

by RMHorn on Apr 23, 2011 11:08 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Just a couple thoughts to consider, RMH.

Nothing personal here, just a different perspective. You mentioned the value of college students who stick it out and finish their degree because it shows that they persevere and follow through. Is it not a facade of perseverance and is not the character of “sticking with it” false if the individuals don’t have a choice as to whether they finish college to enter the market that pays for their talents. Most of the players we are talking about are pure athletes. Their value to their organization is in their ability to play a sport, not no their ability to philosophize or calculate the area under a curve. For the normal student you mentioned, they can enter the market whether they finish school or not, but those that choose to stick it out will be more competitive. If you disallow athletes to enter the professional market until they have finished their schooling, you won’t end up with more athletes with the character to follow through with things they started. You’ll end up with a few who would have followed through regardless, and a bunch more who would have entered the draft prior to finishing and by being forced to stay in school, only increased the risk of injury that could take away their income potential. The inherent risks of lost income potential are very different for an athlete than for a writer, financial analyst, or engineer.

"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.

by HookTech on Apr 24, 2011 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

Uneducated athletes in the limelight and being so heavily idolized

doesn’t make our society better in any shape, way, or form. Athletes need to be ambassadors of society’s greatest attributes. It’s a false dichotomy to say it must be one or the other. Society is made less interesting when your athletes cannot quote Socrates and Shakespeare. Moreover, their status is elevated and they are exalted right out of our society by putting them on the pedestal of wealth and fame. Ordinary people can’t relate to them and they can’t relate to ordinary people. Worse, they don’t care about ordinary people. You get situations like LeBron and his mother mistreating and utterly dehumanizing people in the service industry.

Ultimately, sports is worthless if we’re not using it to make society more fair, more enriched, and more egalitarian. I am an intellectual and I want to root for people like me in sports, not people I loathe outside of the basketball court.

"Hey, don't y'all think that's beautiful right there? That crystal is SO beautiful. And it's coming home to Texas." - Vince Young

by LookinForIt on Apr 24, 2011 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's all nice and utopian,

But the average person at a basketball game probably couldn’t tell you what country Socrates is from and the collective of those people is what funds the whole gig. As Aristotle said, “The average of man is closer to beast than to god.” If you want to watch a bunch of nerds clumsily dribble a basketball down a court and toss it behind the backboard, then sure let’s have an intellectual basketball league. I for one would rather let athletes be athletes and intellectuals be intellectuals.

"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.

by HookTech on Apr 24, 2011 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's not utopian.

It’s something that we can make happen. Would Kobe Bryant be any less athletic if he had more than a high school education? No.

The idea that we can’t or shouldn’t bother to have educated athletes smacks of racism, quite frankly. It supposes that the modern athlete doesn’t want to learn.

"Hey, don't y'all think that's beautiful right there? That crystal is SO beautiful. And it's coming home to Texas." - Vince Young

by LookinForIt on Apr 24, 2011 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

I never said anything remotely related to race.

You did. Exceptional athletes are rare. Exceptional athletes, of any race, that are also intellectuals are even rarer. That’s all I’m saying.

"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.

by HookTech on Apr 24, 2011 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Anybody can be an intellectual.

It’s not something you’re born as.

"Hey, don't y'all think that's beautiful right there? That crystal is SO beautiful. And it's coming home to Texas." - Vince Young

by LookinForIt on Apr 24, 2011 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

I guess we have a different operating definition of intellectual.

"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.

by HookTech on Apr 24, 2011 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

by the way "can be"

Implies a choice.

"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.

by HookTech on Apr 24, 2011 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

No it doesn't. It implies possibility.

"Hey, don't y'all think that's beautiful right there? That crystal is SO beautiful. And it's coming home to Texas." - Vince Young

by LookinForIt on Apr 24, 2011 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Please inform me by what process someone becomes an intellectual

Without choosing to do so.

"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.

by HookTech on Apr 24, 2011 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Lol. Win.

Greg Davis haikus; a lot like his offenses; always go sideways.

by pleaseplaykindle on Apr 25, 2011 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Look, if a player wants to put his pro career on hold to study Shakespeare

That’s amazing and I would love to read the story. However, the choice has to remain with the player. If not, then all this freedom and liberty talk is bullshit and we should change the name of the country because it won’t be worthy of the name USA, anymore. I’m pretty sure you’d be pissed if someone said that you have to put your writing on hold for a while because you need to focus on learning how to run block. That’s just turning the table on what you’re saying you’d like to do to athletes.

"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.

by HookTech on Apr 24, 2011 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh God

It’s the right of the NBA to change their rules to whatever they want.

"Hey, don't y'all think that's beautiful right there? That crystal is SO beautiful. And it's coming home to Texas." - Vince Young

by LookinForIt on Apr 24, 2011 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

that won't make the players intellectuals.

"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.

by HookTech on Apr 24, 2011 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not it alone, no. More is needed in addition to that.

"Hey, don't y'all think that's beautiful right there? That crystal is SO beautiful. And it's coming home to Texas." - Vince Young

by LookinForIt on Apr 24, 2011 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think we agree on what we'd like to see.

But we disagree on whether it’s realistic and whether it should be a matter of choice.

"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.

by HookTech on Apr 24, 2011 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

are there not other places to learn other than universities?

"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.

by HookTech on Apr 24, 2011 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

LookinForIt--I hope you find it.

I just want you to realize that it might not be on this planet.

by OldTimeHorn on Apr 24, 2011 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think you mean not in this country.

"Hey, don't y'all think that's beautiful right there? That crystal is SO beautiful. And it's coming home to Texas." - Vince Young

by LookinForIt on Apr 24, 2011 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

I hear the grass is pretty green in Switzerland.

"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.

by HookTech on Apr 24, 2011 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, we should make America more like Switzerland.

"Hey, don't y'all think that's beautiful right there? That crystal is SO beautiful. And it's coming home to Texas." - Vince Young

by LookinForIt on Apr 24, 2011 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Does Switzerland have a professional basketball league? lol

"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.

by HookTech on Apr 24, 2011 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not that I know of?

"Hey, don't y'all think that's beautiful right there? That crystal is SO beautiful. And it's coming home to Texas." - Vince Young

by LookinForIt on Apr 24, 2011 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's Not a Facade

No kid is being denied a chance at anything. But when they accept a scholarship they are taking on a commitment. Nobody put a gun to their head to accept the scholarship. They could go pro right out of high school if they want – in Europe or wherever in their first year, then jump to the NBA. How is their risk to lost income any different than the risk to lost income a college football or baseball player faces?

These are STUDENT-Athletes, not just athletes. I know maybe that sounds quaint to you, but it is a fact. If you see college basketball (and college athletics for that matter) as no different than a professional farm system then your logic works for you. But that’s not how I see it, and not how NCAA athletics sees itself; why even go to class and have GPA requirements? Only gets in the way of practice, athletic development and all.

They’re either student-athletes or mere athletes, but they don’t get to pick and choose which one at their convenience. College teaches more than what is taught in a major. The ability to follow through and finish what you started is the most important lesson in life, athlete or non-athlete. Teaching these kids that short-term gain is the most important focus in life teaches them how to be failures.

by RMHorn on Apr 24, 2011 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I'll go you one better, RM

You may go to work for a company one day and as a condition of employment sign a non-compete agreement saying you will not go to work for a competitor company for a year or more after you leave. A competitor offers you a better deal and you go to work for them. Your first employer sues—you signed a contract. Guess what… in all but the most blatant cases of corporate espionage, the courts tell them to bug off cuz we don’t have slavery in this country.

Plus, scholarships are year-by-year, and drafts for all sports are in the off-season.

Let’s say, RM, that numskullery was a talent on par with being 6’8 or up and able to drain jumpers at a 50% rate from 12 to 30, and some company offers you $107 million for seven years to numskull for them, your passion. Are you telling us here that you wouldn’t give up your hard-won UT numskull scholarship in a heartbeat?

by OldTimeHorn on Apr 25, 2011 12:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

Canard

What a canard. In contracts like non-competes it is perfectly legal and enforceable to have financial penalties for violations, and if an individual wishes to violate the non-compete of course he can’t be told he can’t work, he will be held to the financial penalties and be required to pay them. Whether the new employer agrees to buy out the non-compete by paying the penalties or the employee gets stuck with it is the only question. God, shooting fish in a bowl!

Moron!

by RMHorn on Apr 25, 2011 12:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, just like shooting fish in a bowl.

“Contemporary case law permits exceptions, but generally will only enforce CNCs to the extent necessary to protect the employer”—just as I said. And in California, where I worked, they were automatically void except in very limited circumstances against equity-holding management.

by OldTimeHorn on Apr 25, 2011 12:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not Germane

The financial penalties, so long as they are not deemed excessive, remain enforceable.

Fish = belly up!

by RMHorn on Apr 25, 2011 1:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

Just plain wrong

Not in California they’re not. And not in most other states unless they address some wrong to the employer, like corporate espionage, or can be shown to comport with very narrow public policy. My point stands, that is, unless you’d like to point me to something stronger than your cockamamie opinion.

by OldTimeHorn on Apr 25, 2011 1:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Cough, Cough

Ahem, you’re full of bullshit. They’ll get you on financials.

by RMHorn on Apr 25, 2011 2:36 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Is that what you learned at UT?

To put words in someone’s mouth?

Amateur (collegiate and otherwise) sports programs are just peachy. But when you have those rare talents, such as a Spencer Haywood, Moses Malone or Shawn Kemp (7-yr contract for $107M in ‘88), why should they give up that kind of money in return for the chance (requirement, actually) to go to college classes for free? Kemp could’ve hired four full-time private professors for five years and still had $105 mill left. Wonder what you would choose, RMHorn, if you had a comparable marketable talent…

by OldTimeHorn on Apr 24, 2011 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hmmm, You Must Have Learned Hyperbole

You wrote about slavery, how is that me putting words in your mouth? Did you even graduate from UT?

Look, there are countless situations in real life that basketball scholarships are no different from, where commitments are made and expected to be honored, regardless of deferring income potential – and none of them are made at the point of the gun, or imposed on talented young people.

Example A: Service Academy Students and ROTC scholarship students are required to serve the nation in uniform in exchange for the free education they receive. They forgo hundreds of thousands of dollars of income (millions of dollars for the student-athletes who play for USAFA, USMA, USNA). But, whoa, can’t deny them their freedom and rights, huh?

Example B: Medical School Scholarship Students who are required to practice family medicine in rural or low-income communities for their first three years out of school in exchange for the free education they receive. They forgo hundreds of thousands of dollars of income they could earn by going into speciality practices. But, whoaa, can’t deny them their freedom and rights, huh?

There’s others out there, but I hope you’re able to see my point, these kids who are student athletes are not being asked to make any greater sacrifice than the real heroes among us who actually do have real value to society beyond our entertainment. Sorry, but my eyes don’t weep for a kid who may have to stay in college two more years than he thinks he should after he made a commitment to be there in the first place.

by RMHorn on Apr 24, 2011 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

I wrote about slavery and the 14th Amendment

Cuz that is how courts have ruled consistently in favor of each and every one of us, athletes included, being able to pursue a livelihood. Do you not even know how to do an Internet search before spouting off with top-of-your-head gibberish?

All that the NCAA and other amateur associations can do is say “you’re not pure enough to rejoin” to those athletes whose draft plans don’t go as planned. But they usually waive that because it’s all about putting studs on the court/field, even if that means breaking the team’s commitment to some other poor schmuck who thought he had a secured a scholarship.

PS: Your examples are bogus. I know you didn’t get a degree at UT. My guess is you’re still in high school.

by OldTimeHorn on Apr 24, 2011 11:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

Difficult to Debate a Moron

OTH, what a frickin’ dumbass line of posts you generate here! The examples I cite are directly comparable, yet you think because you dismiss them they’re bogus, what a MORON!!

Your defense of “the courts have ruled” shows how much of an ignoramus you are, since courts also rule that contracts like the ones I highlight are enforceable and don’t interfere with the pursuit of a livelihood.

I notice that not once do you address the systems adopted by the NFL and MLB, they must be imposing slavery on the players under your interpretation. Thank god idiots like you only post on board like this and have no say in the legal system.

For the record, I write law, statutes, and work with interpretations of the words I put down on paper every day, reviewing case law, anticipating defenses, objections, interpretations that could change with the meaning of a comma here versus a comma there.

Spout your bullshit to someone else who you can try to bully with blind assertions and insults, but it won’t work with me, pal. Eat a dick, but then again that’d be you eating yourself.

by RMHorn on Apr 25, 2011 12:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

You obviously have nothing to do with the law, RM

Sports leagues are free to decide the terms of their drafts. Amateur associations have no power to say that their member players may not leave to go to a draft. Again, learn to Google.

by OldTimeHorn on Apr 25, 2011 12:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

Whatever, Pal

You have no clue, pal, I read statutes. You can cite google, I’ll work with the actual law.

Now, you can go and try to change the subject that’s being debated to try and fit your story. But won’t work with me, buddy. Not one did I say that what they were doing was legal or illegal. What’s being discussed is possible changes to the system to prevent the one and done. You keep claiming that if a kid wants to go he can go. That’s true, not disputed. But if the NBA would accept him is the question. The MLB and NFL have systems that have been deemed legal, despite your asinine assertion that if the NBA adopted it then they’d be guilty of a 14th Amendment violation and imposing slavery. Give me a freakin’ break you idiot!

You obviously couldn’t debate an issue without tossing out insults, and I will always respond in kind to dickheads like you. Why don’t you put a dash of pepper on that dick and practice your gag reflexes, ‘cause that’s what’s for your dinner day after day to be as big a dickhead as you.

by RMHorn on Apr 25, 2011 12:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

You're still putting words in other people's mouths, RM

I have clearly stated that professional leagues are free to hire who they wish according to the rules they choose to abide by. It is amateur associations who are constrained from preventing that from happening. If you know other law, precedent, history or whatever, cite it, Mr Legal Eagle. All I’ve seen is your uninformed opinion.

by OldTimeHorn on Apr 25, 2011 12:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

Still Trying to Shift Subject

You lose the argument so you want to change the terms of the debate?

Whatever, pal. Never said they couldn’t. Did say contracts are enforceable, and if there’s any hope of saving student-athletics and the game of college basketball the system needs to change, which could include making the scholarships offered more like contracts from the NCAA side of things. The problem clearly lies with the NBA, though, I’ve asserted that througout, and have advocated primarily for applying the same standards to college basketball student-athletes that applies to MLB and NFL.

Yet you and other college-as-minor-league advocates keep regurgitating is that would somehow be illegal or an infringement on the rights of basketball student-athletes that curiously isn’t illegal or an infringement on the rights of football or baseball student athletes. Or you spout BS about how the sports are sooooo different. And then you proceed to personally insult anyone with the audacity to disagree with you (I unhesitatingly return the favor). Gimme a break. Y’all are pathetic.

by RMHorn on Apr 25, 2011 1:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not losing or changing anything...

For decades now, RM, college basketball has been played at any given time by hundreds of young athletes with no hope of going pro, a very few with hopes of going pro after their college eligibility is gone and a very few with expectations of going pro before their college eligibility is gone. When colleges make commitments to these players, it’s seldom a mystery which group an individual player falls into. Colleges who don’t want to take a gamble on a one- or two-and-out don’t have to. Adults involved are not whining about this because it was settled years and years ago. It was settled to say that colleges cannot stop a kid from pursuing his best interest as he sees it because, well, it’s a free country.

by OldTimeHorn on Apr 25, 2011 2:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Eyes Closed, Mind Empty

Best describes you. Your contention proven wrong by existence of MLB, NFL systems. Your "free country would prohibit those. This has been repeated and highlighted multiple times now. Ignoring their existence doesn’t make fact go away.

Unless you’re talking to other “believers” in your world view where you all omit facts that are inconveniently contrary.

by RMHorn on Apr 25, 2011 2:44 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

do you think you might have gone overboard withthe generalization here?

I realize your “debate” with RMHorn got a bit out of hand, which is regrettable considering the poor reflection it has on BON, but no one else was insulting you.

"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.

by HookTech on Apr 25, 2011 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Education and basketball

TJ, DJ, and KD are still attending UT. I hope they are graduated, eventually. The mark of a successful program is that it recruits kids who will earn degrees, who count themselves as alums; not whether they play ball in college for four years. In fact, like every other 18 year old in America, they should have the right to be treated like adults in the labor force, and if they are also academically willing to work, they should have that college opportunity as well.

We do enjoy their bb talents and our University profits from them, even if for one year. I would be curious to know if Hamilton and/or Thompson continue to matriculate as UT students. I always hope the kids take advantage of that opportunity.

by MarkInAustin on Apr 23, 2011 11:47 PM CDT reply actions  

I’m convinced that the only reason that the NBA hasn’t follow the NFL’s lead in making a 3 year minimum is because the NBA and BFL are not in the same situation. Specifically, there is no overseas football. There is overseas basketball however, and I don’t think the NBA wants to set up a situation were the talent flows East across the Atlantic.

Yes you will lose some HS player to the Euro leagues, but not many and mostly players will just us it as a college alternative rather than a NBA alternative… the good American players will want to come back. The NBA is the premier league of basketball… by a wide margin.. much wider than say the EPL over the continental soccer leagues.

The college ranks in the US are the minor leagues of the NBA (with all due respect to the dreadful D-league, ie none). If the college ranks are not adequately preparing players for the NBA (they are not) it is in the NBA’s interest to strengthen the NCAA game.

The NBAPA shouldn’t care one way or another as there are a fixed number of roster spots and a salaray cap. If anything, having player stay in the college ranks makes them more marketable (would any of care about KG is he didn’t go to Texas?). I don’t see why the player union would object.

by Honkdada on Apr 24, 2011 12:33 AM CDT reply actions  

with the egos of some of these kds

Im pretty sure they would rather be in the states to show off in front of their friends. Plus going overseas means you’re moving away from everyone you know comepletely to an area that you may have trouble understand whats going on around you because you dont know the language.

"Stability is a factor in teams that win the championship. But if you stabilize on a team that's going to end up short of that, then all you're doing is spinning your wheels in the 45-win range."-----Daryl Morey

by fanoflosingteams on Apr 24, 2011 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Simple Solution

Don’t allow Barnes to recruit these guys for a year. It’s like starting over every year. Personally I am in favor of firing Barnes, but few would agree with that.

by bevomav on Apr 24, 2011 4:33 AM CDT reply actions  

Contracts

Let both the schools and the NBA offer contracts. Kids who go don’t go pro get a college contract to play for a certain number of years. For a player to leave early, the NBA team would need to negotiate with the school. (This probably means new eligibility requirements and some compensation for college players.)

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.

by Caradoc on Apr 24, 2011 7:42 AM CDT reply actions  

All these positions seem flawed

If someone is in school and is offered a job that could make them millions, chances are they will leave. Whether it’s to the NBA or to Goldman sachs, it shouldn’t matter. They should be free to make their own decisions. We all seem to be more concerned with how their decision effect our own personal enjoyment of a sport and should just accept that they have every right to pursue their own goals and employment. These athletes have a limited amount of productive years due to the toll the sport takes on them physically, so i wouldn’t begrudge them making a decision that maximizes their earning potential.

by jmptexas on Apr 24, 2011 9:48 AM CDT via mobile reply actions  

MLB has it right...

the NBA should follow suit. One and dones make it impossible for a coach like Barnes to build the nucleus which is capable of winning a championship. These kids should either have to declare out of high school and give it a go, or commit to the university until they have completed their junior year or are at least 21 years of age. These schools spend sincere amounts of money recruiting and for what…one year on campus? While I buy the argument that it is America and we should not hold one back if they have the opportunity to earn millions, the current system we have is completely broken. It has been building, but the NBA playoffs are far more compelling this year than March Madness was. I believe this trend will continue.

2010/11 Final BCS* Standings
1. Auburn 14-0
2. TCU 13-0
*Wasn't this system designed to prevent this from happening?

by Mulliganville on Apr 24, 2011 11:13 AM CDT reply actions  

Would any of us even care if Texas was making Final Fours with our one and done talent?

I doubt it.

So, instead of accepting “one and done”, we want the rules to change because we think that will elevate our chances of advancing to final fours and winning a title. Except, a rules change won’t do it.

by feltgod on Apr 24, 2011 12:32 PM CDT reply actions  

So...

It is a fluke that Butler and their cohesiveness brought them to two title games in a row? What if Michigan’s Fab Five had bolted after one year? UH in 83 and 84? The sports world is being cheated by the one and done. Imagine Texas with KD, Aldridge, etc. We don’t know what they would have done…we can only wonder.

2010/11 Final BCS* Standings
1. Auburn 14-0
2. TCU 13-0
*Wasn't this system designed to prevent this from happening?

by Mulliganville on Apr 24, 2011 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes

because its a crap shoot every year. We dont have a “team” with one & dones. We basically change our identity every year and it makes no sense getting attatched to a team/roster because it wont be the same next year. I, personally, dont like that

"Stability is a factor in teams that win the championship. But if you stabilize on a team that's going to end up short of that, then all you're doing is spinning your wheels in the 45-win range."-----Daryl Morey

by fanoflosingteams on Apr 24, 2011 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Try a different recruiting approach

These one and done freshmen are fools gold. Tell them to take their talents somewhere else and get a few players with less talent and develop that talent. I had rather have a good player for three or four years than starting over every year after these guys leave.

by bevo_mav on Apr 24, 2011 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Instead of passing on "one and dones", we need to blend them with a stronger supporting cast

The problem this year was not our “one and dones”. In fact, our “one and dones” were the only reason we competed at an unexpectedly high level during the regular season. Imagine this team without CoJo and TT.

Instead we need to do a better job of developing our non-NBA talent. There have been too many limited/incomplete players getting significant minutes on our team. For example, this year’s squad:

Dogus – can’t shoot
Wangmene – can’t catch, can’t finish in the post
Matt Hill – can’t finish in the post, no midrange game, limited athleticism to get rebounds, nor score in transition
Lucas – mediocre shooter, no ability to drive and finish, weak defender
Chapman – too physically weak to even play his SENIOR year!
JCB – too many turnovers, limited defender, streaky shooter

by feltgod on Apr 24, 2011 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Show me the money...

For both sides its about fame and fortune. The schools and fans want the player to stay so the team will win more and we can brag more (not to mention the school makes more $$$). The player wants to leave so he can live the dream and make a shitload of cash doing it.

by Dawnpatrol on Apr 24, 2011 1:56 PM CDT via mobile reply actions  

Yes, non-profit athletics is important.

I think changing the rookie pay scale like they’re trying to do in the NFL would do a lot to help. If rookies just got a few hundred thousand a year then they likely wouldn’t see it as this big instant payoff. It would be like any other profession where you have to prove yourself to move up in the ranks.

As to your question of why, because non-profit athletics is important and education is important. Ultimately, our society is not going to improve by players not getting an education. Ideally, we would have all these kids maximizing their opportunities by playing all four years in college, getting a college degree, then going on to the NBA to have a productive career.

"Hey, don't y'all think that's beautiful right there? That crystal is SO beautiful. And it's coming home to Texas." - Vince Young

by LookinForIt on Apr 24, 2011 2:46 PM CDT reply actions  

you realize the NFL is trying to change it to the NBA's model

…re: rookie pay scale?

Ultimately, our society is not going to improve by players not getting an education

I really don’t understand why you keep bringing this up. I watch sports to see the sport played at a high level. I don’t care if they can quote Shakespeare.

by vy til i die on Apr 24, 2011 10:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Stand Alone Thought from Larger Post Above

Without minimizing the importance and validity of the arguments I’ve put forth above, something that would minimize the impact of broken commitments by kids jumping to the NBA after one season would be to increase the number of scholarships available to basketball programs. Doing so would dilute the adverse impact of one and dones because programs would have more talented players to fall back on who will stay in a system. Add another 3-5 and more impact players will be available to develop into starting roles – as long as the NBA doesn’t then follow up by adding more rounds to their draft so they can poach even more.

by RMHorn on Apr 24, 2011 9:02 PM CDT reply actions  

All the NBA and NCAA need to do...

is implement the MLB rules. Problem solved.

2010/11 Final BCS* Standings
1. Auburn 14-0
2. TCU 13-0
*Wasn't this system designed to prevent this from happening?

by Mulliganville on Apr 24, 2011 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Except you've created a new problem.

Now the NBA will have to pay the athletes that go pro before going to college before they hit their peak. Why would the NBA want to do that?

by Texas Wahoo on Apr 25, 2011 12:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

There is a small grouping...

of players which will be able to make the leap out of HS to the NBA. Those that do it in baseball have a farm system to work their way through…even Bryce Harper. The NBA is using the college ranks as its minor league system. One and dones are terrible for the school, the player, and the fan base. Moreover, life on the road for an NBA player is starkly different than that of an NFL player. A 19 year old kid is not mature enough to handle the “life” of the NBA. Durant, James, etc. are the exceptions IMHO, not the rule. There is so much more to this than the NBA or the colleges wish to focus on.

2010/11 Final BCS* Standings
1. Auburn 14-0
2. TCU 13-0
*Wasn't this system designed to prevent this from happening?

by Mulliganville on Apr 25, 2011 1:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

But why would the NBA want to pay Kevin Durant or anyone else while they learns the game?

The reason for the rule is to avoid paying them until they’re closer to their physical/skills peak.

by Texas Wahoo on Apr 25, 2011 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Are you suggesting...

that one year in the college ranks provides the foundation and landscape for them to “learn the game?” I do not buy that argument. The fact is, the majority of these kids will go to college until they are 21 under this system. The TRUE kids that are ready to make the jump from HS will be welcomed by the NBA with open arms.

2010/11 Final BCS* Standings
1. Auburn 14-0
2. TCU 13-0
*Wasn't this system designed to prevent this from happening?

by Mulliganville on Apr 25, 2011 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

Certainly not.

I’m saying that even the best college basketball players are not at their peak when they graduate from high school. Why not make Lebron and Durant go to college for a year and hone their skills while the NBA doesn’t have to pay them? It’s better for the NBA to hold off on paying them as long as possible.

If the baseball rule were around, I think most of the one and done players would go straight to the NBA because they don’t want to be stuck in college for three years. However, it doesn’t really matter because that is not in the best interests of the NBA and thus it will never happen. We are much more likely to get a two year minimum rule than a rule that allows any players to go pro earlier.

by Texas Wahoo on Apr 25, 2011 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

The difference is...

the NBA draft is miniscule regarding the amount of players taken and teams are not going to take a flyer for some kid straight out of HS just because he thinks he is good enough. There might be a handful each year worthy of draft stock and financial commitment. Meanwhile, the other 99% of these kids will receive three years minimum of collegiate experience via an upper tier program and will be better off because of it.

2010/11 Final BCS* Standings
1. Auburn 14-0
2. TCU 13-0
*Wasn't this system designed to prevent this from happening?

by Mulliganville on Apr 25, 2011 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

But before the rule change, even when players could only go to college for one year, more and more kids were going out of high school.

Why would that change now, especially when these kids are deciding between going out of high school or foregoing three years of salary?

Here is a breakdown of high school players getting drafted by year:
1995 – 1
1996 – 2
1997 – 1
1998 – 3
1999 – 2
2000 – 2
2001 – 5
2002 – 1
2003 – 5
2004 – 8
2005 – 8

That doesn’t take into consideration the foreign players that don’t go to U.S. high schools.

I imagine that players like Carmelo Anthony would have thought twice about going to Syracuse if they knew they would be there for 3 years, especially with more and mroe of the draft picks being taken up by high school players.

by Texas Wahoo on Apr 25, 2011 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

It is a good debate...

Even if the scenario of 2004 and 2005 returns, that is 8 kids each year that bypass college. The rest are going to college. Just because a kid makes himself draft eligible does not mean he is going to get drafted. As you pointed out, foreign born players would have to adhere to the guidelines as well. Personally, I would like to see a coach like Barnes be rewarded for his ability to recruit the talent that he is able to assemble. Whether he is the best X’s and O’s guy is certainly debatable. But, having the turnstiles rotated every year by one and dones is bad for the college game.

2010/11 Final BCS* Standings
1. Auburn 14-0
2. TCU 13-0
*Wasn't this system designed to prevent this from happening?

by Mulliganville on Apr 25, 2011 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

"Even if the scenario of 2004 and 2005 returns, that is 8 kids each year that bypass college. The rest are going to college."

I don’t think it’s a question of whether the 2004-2005 numbers would return. I think there is a clear trend in the numbers. Given that that was 5 years ago, I bet there would be at least 15-20 kids going pro out of high school every year by now, even without the threat of making them stay in school for three years if they decide to go to college. I would bet that eventually all but a couple of the draft picks would be straight out of high school.

by Texas Wahoo on Apr 26, 2011 8:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'd argue that if there's going to be an early-entry minimum...

…it should be an either/or. That is, a player must either be 20yrs. old on the date of the draft OR be two years past his HS graduation. Or 21 and three. You get the idea. I think age is actually bigger issue, but if a kid graduates HS early, I’m thinking maybe he shouldn’t have to play another year longer in college than those who graduated HS the same year.

But the NBA does hold the power, of course. The question is whether the NCAA has any leverage it could use to force the NBA to comply, like maybe limiting league access somehow.

When the world slips you a jeffrey, stroke the furry wall.

by burntorangehorn on Apr 25, 2011 7:34 AM CDT reply actions  

I was referred to this article from Rush The Court and I thought it was really well written.

To me, there is a big difference between the NBA and other pro leagues, which is that kids right out of HS can contribute as a rookie in the NBA.

That is why I believe that players should be able to enter the draft out of HS if they wish. I don’t believe the NBA should have the right to not allow the players to enter the draft and make a living, especially when it has been proven that some players can succeed.

The issue is, like you said, with only two rounds and with such a small roster, the high draft picks are so valuable and one pick can swing a franchise (Lebron vs Kwame).

The GMs will want to mitigate their risk and see these players play against a higher level of competition to try to gain a better handle on them so they can make the right pick, which is understandable.

I think the biggest thing that needs to happen is the elimination of guaranteed contracts for first round picks. I think this really causes a lot of players to make the jump, as all they have to do is get drafted in the first round to get a 3 year deal.

Eliminate this and allow players to enter the draft when they wish. I think this will stop many kids from entering out of high school (and maybe even one year), as they will really want to make sure they are ready to play.

by JoshuaR on Apr 25, 2011 9:05 AM CDT reply actions  

Sending these guys to college for a year is in the NBA's financial interests in another way

Guys like Durant, Anthony, Rose, Wall etc. become big stars playing college ball. They are not just obscure high school kids. So not only does the NBA get to put off paying these guys for a year (during a period where they don’t contribute much), but they also get rookies that are much more marketable.

by Reggieball on Apr 25, 2011 5:08 PM CDT reply actions  

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