Vince Young Can Throw The Ball
by Peter Bean on May 10, 2011 2:46 PM CDT
in Texas Longhorns Football
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PrintVince Young is one of the most misunderstood players in football. To be sure, part of the blame rests squarely on his own shoulders, but he's also the victim of a lot of lazy misperception. A textbook example came in the run up to this year's NFL Draft, when NFL color commentator Randy Cross vomited to an interviewer that Cam Newton would prove not to be a colossal bust like Vince Young and Ryan Leaf.
Vince Young is many things, some good some bad, but a colossal bust like Ryan Leaf? Really? Someone pays you to talk about football?
To begin with, Vince Young has been in the NFL for five seasons. In his rookie year, he played so well he made the Pro Bowl. He battled injuries his sophomore season but led the Titans to the playoffs. He lost his entire third season, and the first six games of his fourth, after he couldn't get along with Jeff Fisher, his head coach who, you know, didn't want to draft him, didn't know how to use him, and tried to undermine him at every turn. When he finally got back on the field, he turned the Titans around immediately and almost led them to the playoffs. Oh, right: he made his second Pro Bowl, too. Last year, he was well on his way to his best season yet when he got hurt, and then lost the rest of the year when, yup you guessed it, Fisher screwed with him once again.
Vince Young has been troubled, but the perception that he's been a bad quarterback is just incorrect. He's been good, and getting better, and the single biggest impediment to his career has been the criminally incompetent Jeff Fisher. And this isnt' just the rant of a fanboy. Not only was Vince leading the NFL in passer rating last season when he got hurt, but he was dominating with the deep ball like no other quarterback in the league.
Pro Football Focus looked at the percentage of a QB's passes thrown 20 or more yards down the field, and Vince Young led the way as the most bomb-happy quarterback in the league, throwing 35 of his 156 attempts downfield (22.5%).
Okay, but did he complete them? Why yes, he did. Indeed, Vince Young also completed a higher percentage of his deep throws than any other QB in the league, nailing 16 of 35, for a league-best 45.7 completion percentage.
Here's to hoping that Vince lands in a situation where he can actually thrive. Because he's been ready to for a while now.
Someone just needs to let him.
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Jeff Fisher makes me want to poke some eyeballs out. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr……..
by longhornfan7628 on May 10, 2011 2:56 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Respect The Legs
And he’ll burn you deep
Greg Davis haikus; a lot like his offenses; always go sideways.
by pleaseplaykindle on May 10, 2011 3:01 PM CDT reply actions
That's what... ah, nevermind.
"The only sport that should be cried over is tee ball."
- don't remember who said it, but I like it.
You're braver than I.
Almost.
There is not a situation or individual that cannot be improved by the addition of chocolate.
I want to hug his legs
"Try not. Do, or do not. There is no try."
- Yoda
Facebook.com/MrWriteMedia
Twitter.com/MrWriteMedia
I just want him playing again. Without Fisher.
There is not a situation or individual that cannot be improved by the addition of chocolate.
From that same article:
Take Colt McCoy for example. A revelation for the Browns in year one, he was also guilty of making some bad downfield decisions. An incredible 21.88% of his passes longer than 20 yards ended up as interceptions, far higher than Cutler (12.5%) who finished second, and Rivers, Garrard, and Jason Campbell who together finished third with 11.76%.
Yikes!
Greg Davis haikus; a lot like his offenses; always go sideways.
by pleaseplaykindle on May 10, 2011 3:22 PM CDT reply actions
I'm sorry but...
Using DVOA as a metric, the Browns didn’t have a SINGLE RECEIVER that scored in the positive (Massaquoi, Stuckey, Cribbs, Robiskie). Cutler had 4 better receivers (Knox, Hester, Davis, Bennett), Rivers had 3.5 (Floyd, Jackson, Crayton, Ajirotutu), and Jacksonville had Sims-Walker and Mike Thomas. Only Oakland can claim similar suckitute at the receiver spot.
Heck, VY/Tennessee had only one receiver in the positive: Kenny Britt, who was injured for half the year.
by jc25 on May 10, 2011 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Educate me: What is DVOA?
Greg Davis haikus; a lot like his offenses; always go sideways.
by pleaseplaykindle on May 10, 2011 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Follow-up question: How do you decouple a receiver's statistics from that of the QB throwing to him?
Greg Davis haikus; a lot like his offenses; always go sideways.
by pleaseplaykindle on May 10, 2011 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions
DVOA
Football Outsiders metric. “number represents value, per play, over an average WR in the same game situations.” Kind of like a VORP metric in baseball. The WR list from 2011 is here.
As for the second question: you can’t; they’re intertwined. However, the relative performance is still an attributable measure. Qualitatively, McCoy wasn’t great (Wallace and Delhomme were really bad), but given the crap in a bucket he had to work with, the receivers were even worse.
That's not to totally excuse a longball INT% that's almost twice the 2nd place performer
As Longhorns fans, I think we already knew that McCoy wasn’t a great long-distance chucker going into the league. Hopefully he’ll develop as he matures.
McCoy didn't play a full year.
I don’t know how you can compare him to all the other QBs when he had what, only half the start?
by iamjackburton on May 10, 2011 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Figures Lie and Liars Figure
Huge Horns and Browns’ fan whose sports world became a karma warming coalescence when Colt became an NFL starting QB. I saw each of those interceptions. 2 INTs were perfectly thrown passes into tight windows that were deflected off his receivers hands and gift wrapped to the DB. Another INT was to a WR in the final game of the season. He had apparently lost interest in the drubbing by Pitt and made no effort to compete for the ball. In short, the Browns receivers are the worst in the NFL by a huge margin. Their hands look like teeny weeny ironing boards. Colt’s decision making and leadership was a tremendous bright spot – numbers be damned.
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
Randy Cross = Idiot
Only 1 QB belongs in Ryan Leaf’s class. That QB: Ryan Leaf.
Who are you?!
I'm Kick Ass!
maybe he confused..
..VY w/ Jamarcus Russell? Tall Black QB? That’s the only explanation I can come up with.
by vy til i die on May 10, 2011 7:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Same here
I really was at a loss when he said that. I was thinking, okay, two-time pro-bowler out of basically 3.5 seasons played…and he’s a bust?
Jonathan Baldwin: worst Chief since Larry Johnson
by burntorangehorn on May 11, 2011 7:28 AM CDT up reply actions
VY would have to trip over Matt Leinart to make it into Leaf's class ...
… and we all know that VY doesn’t trip over anything. Given a new coach and new start, VY can take off on an upward trend from the criticism. I’d love to see him prove it with yet more Pro Bowl appearances and possibly a Super Bowl win.
VY>Jeff Fisher
Fisher failed to properly coach a young and emotional player. VY is two things: A competitor and a winner. Imagine how frustating it must have been to play for a db like Fisher who is an arrogant narcissistic liar.
I am so excited that VY finally is free from that toxic mix in Ten, and I hope he shows the Titans what they could have done. Bud Adams should have fired Fisher, or traded VY. Keeping them together was ridiculous because Fisher was sabotaging VY every chance he got.
run Bevo run lives in the Tower with Mack and Bevo because of his Awesomeness!! If you need a tip on where someone might go in the draft you might check with him because he's not bad at that either.
im glad you at least mention VY, eventhough he is a god to me, is not...
…without fault. clearly he has shown to be immature in handling situations, and the ever questioning NFL audience has been a surprise to him, someone, in all sense, who was a man among boys in college.
but yes, fisher really made life terrible for him and really impeded his progress, especially later in his career. VY needs a coach who has trust in him and his abilities, who designs plays keeping his strengths in mind, and exploiting them to the team’s advantage.
until he really has someone who loves him and uses him intelligently, VY will never be what he can be, and will be considered a bust by most NFL audiences. his only way to go around the ‘bust’ argument is to get or even win a superbowl
by vanterminatorhorn on May 10, 2011 4:15 PM CDT reply actions
You're gonna hate this....
I don’t want to disagree with the author, but Vince Young didn’t “lead” the Titans to the playoffs in 2007. His TD-INT ratio was 9-17. He also fumbled the ball ten times. What’s more important, though, is that the Titan defense led them to the playoffs. There were five games where the offense only scored a single touchdown and had to be bailed out by the defense (which was amazing that year) over and over again.
Also, you can’t blame a coach for everything. It would be different if the entire locker room hated the guy, but that simply isn’t the case. Vince Young did a lot of this to himself.
I’m not saying I don’t think he is a great athlete. His college performances speak for themselves. However, he has not had a very good career as an NFL quarterback. The 30-17 record looks great on paper, but so did Barack Obama when he was elected. When you delve deeper into the situation, you find that the record is misleading.
Sorry bout that.
I don’t want to bring politics into it. I was simply stating we know more about a person when we get to know them and watch them more often.
by Nathan Walters on May 10, 2011 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions
There's a lot more than a listing of faults that such a comment could elicit
I really just don’t understand why that was necessary. It presumes a lot of things that NW might find accurate, but others might not, so it was extremely flawed anyway.
Jonathan Baldwin: worst Chief since Larry Johnson
by burntorangehorn on May 11, 2011 7:34 AM CDT up reply actions
Re:
The 30-17 record looks great on paper, but so did Barack Obama when he was elected. When you delve deeper into the situation, you find that the record is misleading.
2007 excepted, there are three separate, independent situations where Vince came in and helped elevate his team. Throw out his 2007 record, and it doesn’t influence his win percentage.
It is important to remember his 2007 record and everything that happened that year, though. The record itself does not mean everything. Like I said, I think he is a great athlete. I just don’t see him as an NFL quarterback. I won’t compare Cam Newton to him, though. Not yet.
by Nathan Walters on May 10, 2011 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Why?
We don’t even need to deal with 2007. It’s not germane to my point. In 2006, 2009, and 2010, the Tennessee Titans won ~60% of their games with Vince under center. Without him under center, they won 13% of their games in that same period.
I’m interested to hear why that record is “misleading”?
by SuperHorn on May 10, 2011 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
What about 2008?
I’m just wondering about that. I know he was injured, but the Titans did MUCH better without him than with.
by Nathan Walters on May 10, 2011 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Irrelevant
It’s only relevant to examine the team in a year in which Vince plays. In 2009, they played without Vince, and with Vince. We know his effect on the team. In 2008, we saw the Titans without Vince, but not with him. The Titans might have been equally good, or better, with him.
Sorry.
You ain't hurt...
I know you guys all disagree with me...
And I expected it haha. I just don’t see him as an elite NFL quarterback. Hell, I don’t even see him as a Top 16 quarterback in the league. That would put him in the bottom half. He may or may not be in the Top 32. That’s difficult to say. He came out of college in the Top 10. He was and is a great athlete. He just hasn’t turned in great performances.
by Nathan Walters on May 10, 2011 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions
We understand how you "feel"
The difference is that we’re discussing facts that support a conclusion. You’re just asserting an opinion.
Which is fine, but you’ll forgive us for pointing out the difference.
You ain't hurt...
by Peter Bean on May 10, 2011 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
VY's career stats compared to others...
Vince Young: 42 TDs, 42 INTs, QB rating of 75.7 (5 seasons)
Tom Brady: 261 TDs, 103 INTs, QB rating of 95.2 (11 seasons)
Peyton Manning: 399 TDs, 198 INTs, QB rating of 94.9 (13 seasons)
Drew Brees: 235 TDs, 192 INTs, QB rating of 91.7 (10 seasons)
Ben Roethlisberger: 144 TDs, 96 INTs, QB rating of 92.5 (7 seasons)
Matt Ryan: 66 TDs, 34 INTs, QB rating of 86.9 (3 seasons)
Philip Rivers: 136 TDs, 58 INTs, QB rating of 97.2 (7 seasons)
Eli Manning: 156 TDs, 113 INTs, QB rating of 80.2 (7 seasons)
There are some stats for you. I’m just saying that he doesn’t compare to other top-of-the-line quarterbacks…Eli Manning really isn’t, but I figured I would put a QB who most people think is under-performing and show he still has had a better statistical career than Vince Young.
by Nathan Walters on May 10, 2011 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm sorry...
…but where did anyone argue that his career numbers compared favorably to the top eight quarterbacks of the last decade?
Go read the post again. Or, here’s a shorter version for you: “People say Vince Young sucks without justification. He is actually good and getting better, despite having a coach who hated him and didn’t know how to use him. A team should sign him and let him excel, as he has shown he can.”
You ain't hurt...
But stats, which are not an opinion but back up fact...
show that he is not good and getting better. They show he has had a lackluster career in which he threw as many touchdowns as interceptions.
by Nathan Walters on May 10, 2011 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Again:
Go. Read. The. Post.
When he got hurt last year, he was leading the NFL in passer rating.
We get that you don’t like Vince. That your opinions about him are misinformed just confirms the thesis of the post. You are, it’s clear, one of the people I was talking about.
You ain't hurt...
You guys are talking over each other.
He’s arguing against a point you never meant. You’re defending an argument he won’t attack.
Greg Davis haikus; a lot like his offenses; always go sideways.
by pleaseplaykindle on May 10, 2011 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Re:
I’m just saying that he doesn’t compare to other top-of-the-line quarterbacks
Not that’s not what you’re “saying”. You said:
The 30-17 record looks great on paper, but so did Barack Obama when he was elected. When you delve deeper into the situation, you find that the record is misleading.I want to know, specifically, what you find misleading? When Vince was in, win percentage was 60%. When he was out, 17%. Lucky for us, we have three separate case studies where this happened, so we don’t even have to span across different seasons.
I would also like to point out defensive statistic when he was in games...
How many touchdowns did the offense score compared to how many times the Titans had to rely on their rather phenomenal defense? That must be considered as well. It is not simply offense that wins games. In the case of the Titans, their defense has won more for them than anything.
by Nathan Walters on May 10, 2011 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Part of the VY legend is that he also inspired the defense.
Halo effect, or whatever. VY owned the entire team when he was at UT even though he didn’t play defense. This I can’t prove, but I have faith.
That I would agree with.
However, the NFL is so much different than college ball. In college, one player can take over and change an entire game (check our the latest Heisman winner). In the NFL, it really does take an entire team effort.
by Nathan Walters on May 10, 2011 6:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Perhaps
At UT he surely had a coaching staff grateful for his presence, and willing to remake the offense to maximize his talents. All they did letting Vince be Vince was win a national championship by beating the greatest team “ever.”
FIsher? Not so much. Fisher seemed like Mommy Dearest. I would love to give Fisher the Bud Adams double FU finger wave sometime soon.
Phenomenal?
Per Football Outsiders, which measures relative statistics (Ie. adjusted for competition, among other things), the defense was 8th last year, but, mind you, the team only found a way to win 2 games when Vince wasn’t playing. That’s the best defense that Vince had in these three years. And, the defense was just dominant enough to carry his counterpart, Kerry Collins, to a 2-6 record as a starter.
As for 2006, and 2009, the defense ranked 20th and 27th, respectively.
Even, then, if we presumed that the team was just “riding the defense”, why were they only able to do it when Vince played? Was Vince’s win percentage 3.5 times higher than his counterpart because he was more capable of riding a defense?
If Vince was just relying on his teammates and getting carried, then the same should have applied for Kerry Collins.
by SuperHorn on May 10, 2011 6:22 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Pssst. Hey,,visitor.
You’re not gonna win this one on this site. Ever. Might want to pack up your corn and head on home. We can handle this one without ya. Really. Thanks for stopping by.
There is not a situation or individual that cannot be improved by the addition of chocolate.
If only he had a different coach.....
Really? That’s it? If only he had a different coach is all I’m hearing here…
I don’t care about a player’s college affiliation when he is in the NFL. I really don’t. I can tell you right now that there are plenty of Nebraska football players who are/have been HORRID in the NFL. Eric Crouch is one of them. So don’t think it’s because I don’t like Vince Young or something. I just see it from the outside, I guess.
By the way, 1995 Nebraska is the best team ever. 2005 USC can suck it.
by Nathan Walters on May 10, 2011 7:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Seriously?
At the end of the day the only stat that matters is win total. Vince Young finds a way to win more often than not. That’s it. I don’t care what his passer rating is, if your quarterback wins you games then he is a good QB.
Now broadcasted in over 20 languages on over 15 continents.
I get that. Wins and losses are all that matter...
I know this. The bottom line is all that is important. Which is why John Calipari keeps getting coaching gigs (and RichRod will as well).
It is important to look deeper when stating if a player is a “bust” or not. I will say this, he is no Ryan Leaf or Jamarcus Russell or (I predict) Cam Newton.
However, he is also not worth the 3rd pick in the draft. Amazing athlete. Below average quarterback.
by Nathan Walters on May 10, 2011 7:52 PM CDT up reply actions
How VY stacks up
I am not sure what you mean by below average, and I find averages difficult when comparing athletes. I prefer to look at relative ranks. By year, here are where VY’s passer ratings ranked among qualifiers, per www.pro-football-reference.com:
2006 — 30th
2007 — 26th
2008 — did not qualify (only 36 attempts)
2009 — 18th
2010 — did not qualify, but his rating would have ranked him at 5th if he would have maintained his pace.
The chances are good that if he had stayed healthy for the rest of 2010, even if he would have dropped off some, he would have landed in the top 15.
So I think we can probably argue, at least when it comes to things like passer rating, Vince Young is one of the 15-20 or so best QB’s in the league. He is probably on par with someone like Matt Ryan or Jay Cutler. These guys were also high draft picks (Ryan went #3 as well), and are established NFL starters. Vince Young is certainly not a top 5 quarterback. But he is good enough to start for someone in the NFL.
Vince is better than Mark Sanchez, another high pick that people seem happy with. Sanchez’s first two years are somewhat similar statistically with VY’s first two years, but without the benefit of the running yards.
You can use something else, like adjusted yards per attempt, and come to pretty similar conclusions.
Wow
Who the hell is Dave Brown, number 1 pick overall in the 1992 draft out of Duke? I’ve never heard that name in my life, and I was old enough at that point to be aware of the draft.
by BrooklynHorn on May 11, 2011 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Dave Brown
was the first pick of the 1992 NFL Supplemental Draft. Steve Emtman was the first pick of the real 1992 draft. Looks like that custom query included him by mistake.
Another look at it
All QBs taken in the 1st round from 2005-2007 (assuming I got the query right).
Only Aaron Rogers is a star. Jay Cutler and Jason Campbell are established starters, although both are now on their second team. Vince is next, and can arguably have a career on par with Cutler and Campbell going forward. (He has a decent shot of being better than these guys.) VY has been better than Alex Smith. Russel, Quinn, and Leinart didn’t play last year.
Again, VY is pretty much a median level performer for a 1st round QB draft pick. Certainly not a bust, and not even a disappointment (unless you are expecting better than median level performance).
Just one more of these...
The list of all the QB’s in NFL history taken #3 is a lot of fun.
VY is not the only Texas guy on here. There is also one of VY’s mentors, a sitting Congressmen, the ol’ ball coach, and a couple of real QB busts. And this is the guy who leads them all in passing yards.
Following up on that list
Vince Young’s performance so far in his NFL career is probably about median level for high QB draft picks. If he is considered a bust, then teams should stop picking quarterbacks that high, because their “bust” rate is really high.
by Reggieball on May 11, 2011 6:39 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
2005 Texas is the best team ever
formerly "Horns102591"
by horns1025 on May 10, 2011 10:43 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm going to make a ruling.
"I live in the tower with Coach Brown." -Bevo
by run Bevo run on May 11, 2011 12:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Objection!
In the precedent presented in Blutarski v. Faber the evidence must clearly state that in fact there was breach of Reductio_ad_Hitlerum
I feel like a hippie in a drum circle!
by Ese-De-SA on May 11, 2011 11:42 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Agree
Don’t follow the NFL anymore, but I’ll be checking in on VY because now he’ll have the last word. I blame Bud Adams a lot for VY’s treatment. I remember Adams was a dumb axe when I lived in Oilers’ country. He hired Jerry Glanville for pete’s sake. Then after watching Glanville’s numb-skullness up close, he kept him around (for a few more years, right?).
Also Buddy Ryan
and that’s when Fisher came in.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
Jeff Fisher is as vanilla as they come
The kind of guy who considers driving 5 minutes past the speed limit to be “rebellious”. You can’t give him a sports car like VY and expect him to know how to handle it.
I’m ecstatic that VY has finally gotten rid of Tennessee. They didn’t get rid of him, he got rid of THEM. Someone like VY, with his swagger, was never going to fit into a hick town like Tennessee. They should be happy with Jake Locker, the all American (White) QB.
I picture the breakup something like,
Vince: It’s not you it’s me, wait, no it’s definitely you.
by dukeoforange on May 10, 2011 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Vikings or Redskins, I think. Hell, maybe even Arizona. Lord knows they need somebody
Maybe he will go to Philly and play behind Vick. Somebody’s gonna pick him up.
by Nathan Walters on May 10, 2011 8:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Please not the Redskins!
Please please please
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
Although if he went there, the bonus would be seeing him beat the Cowboys, right?
Jonathan Baldwin: worst Chief since Larry Johnson
by burntorangehorn on May 11, 2011 8:12 AM CDT up reply actions
Getting Better
He had 32 TDs and 39 INTs before last year and then threw for 10 TDs and 3 INTs last year. I think that qualifies as getting better.
Nathan, please be fair
Stats are a construct we use to understand a complicated world. But they are often contradictory and usually equivocal to some extent. Folks here have presented a lot of stats that suggest VY is among the best quarterbacks in the league (your own stats show he’s pretty close to those top 8) and above in some respects (liek his teams relative risk of winning with & without him).
But you assert he is not and NFL quarterback despite the fact that you have presented absolutely no evidence to that effect. You may want to sit this one out.
by Erasmus Funderburke on May 10, 2011 9:15 PM CDT reply actions
Nathan, Nathan, Nathan
I have 2 questions for you?
1. What was Vince’s win/loss record?
Answer: 30-17
2. What were his stats in yrs 1 and 2 compared to 4 and 5?
Answer: yr 1-2 comp 56%, yards 4745 (169 per game), td passes 21, int 30. Rushing stats 947 yds, td 10 and fumbles 15.
Yrs 4-5 comp 59%, yards 3134 (174 per game), td 20, int 10. Rushing stats yards 406, td 2, fumbles 6.
We are not saying he will ever be Brady or Manning but what we are saying is the guy won games period and that the improvement VY made was very evident. Just look at his stats. Vincent made mistakes as the leader of the Titans and we all know that but we as loyal Texas and VY fans will not stand by and let people like you throw opinions out there blasting our icons and not demand you support them with some sort of fact. Also when did RANDY CROSS become the know it all of pro football. The only reason he got a commentary job is because Joe Montana stuck his hands up Randy’s crack and some fool thought it was important. (please excuse any grammar or spelling errors as I posted this from my phone)
by LEMILES on May 10, 2011 9:31 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Let's compare apples to apples:
All Time Single Season QB Rating, age 27, min 140 pass; VY’s 2010 is #8 all time
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=odoYT
All Time Single Season QB Rating 20-27, min 140 pass; VY’s 2010 is #22 all time
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=fWPoK
Before anyone goes there, supposed poor record against teams with winning record would be top 20 all time.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=570
Think he can’t throw and have an hour to kill? Watch every play he made in 2010:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnCZ7N_H5fE&feature=channel_video_title
Watch him do all the things his critics say he can’t.
by bevosbackside on May 10, 2011 10:20 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Also, saying he's not worthy of a top 5 pick
Here’s All Time Single Season QB Rating age 20-27 1st Round Picks, min 140 pass; VY’s 2010 is #17 all time
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=ph4cx
Amen
Reports of VY’s demise are greatly exaggerated.
The VY debate . . always brings out the fanboys and haters.
I don’t think this is that hard to grasp. He clearly is better now (or last year) than he was at the start of his career. Ironically, it’s the one year he DIDN’T lead the Titans to a winning record (4-4) in his starts. And his 8-game stretch as a starter last year was very, very good.
That being said it was an 8-game starting stretch in which he threw less than 20 passes a game. In only 3 games in his career has he won a game in which he threw more than 30 passes in a game. Matt Ryan (who’s a great comparison because he’s played about the same amount of games) has 18 wins in which he’s thrown 30+ passes. Sam Bradford has 6. Mark Sanchez, has 8 (6 of which came last year). It’s an arbitrary number, but I think it’s fair to say that Vince has been asked to be a “game manager” type for most of his NFL career which doesn’t scream “worthy of a top 5 pick” or “top 15 NFL QB.”
This doesn’t mean he can’t do it or even that he couldn’t have done it for the Titans. Coach Fisher likes his running game and Chris Johnson is a guy to whom you want to give the ball. But it also doesn’t mean he CAN do it either, at least on the level of a franchise QB.
Why don’t we all just let his career play out as opposed to everyone getting defensive because somebody says something negative about the man. And frankly, even if he doesn’t do anything of note in the NFL, it doesn’t take away 2005
so does this mean...
that Vince’s playcalling also leaves something to be desired???
Or maybe, just maybe, Ryan and Sanchez were in better situations? Maybe with coaches more interested in using their talents to help win games, as opposed to screwing with them just to impose the coach’s will on the team?
The vast majority of talking heads have a pathetically misinformed opinion of Vince Young
I remember when they got Randy Moss, people kept saying, “But he doesn’t have a QB to throw to him!” even though Vince Young was throwing the deep ball well. The reason the Randy Moss experiment didn’t work was because they refused to use him in any competent manner, just like Vince Young.
by TheElusiveShadow on May 11, 2011 12:09 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Listen
The sad truth is that we will never know how good a QB VY could have been because:
1. He’s already damaged having played so many years w/ a coach that hated him and
fans that were ready to jump on him at a moment’s notice (non-UT fans)
2. He plays in the NFL. You know, the league were a great sport goes to die. The
league that makes 3 yards and a cloud of dust look fun. No team will ever let Vince
be Vince, because it’s the NFL. I doubt that Cam Newton will make it either, for the
same reason.
3. NFL coaching sucks. They all pull that “this is the NFL, that won’t work here” crap.
I would have loved to have seen some visionary offensive minded coach get VY straight out of UT and groom him properly and turn him loose, but it didn’t happen and it never will.
But RYAN LEAF? NOBODY with a right mind and compare VY to Ryan Leaf.
by amarillotxhornfan on May 11, 2011 12:43 AM CDT reply actions
Maybe not
Quarterbacks can play well into their thirties. The decision to go with Young could be made by a general manager rather than a coach, based on economics. The kind of players you need for a VY offense could be undervalued by other GMs. And the NFL coaching fraternity occasionally gets a shot of new blood.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
Taking a page from THujone...
math.
Titans 2009 Season:
CJ + Kerry Collins = 0-6
CJ + VY = 8-2
by Kool Hand on May 11, 2011 1:13 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
BURNT ORANGE COLORED GLASSES
VY was his own worst enemy…those who followed him on the field ( Randy Cross excluded ) know that he was sucesssful, compared to most who play at that level…however, he lost his locker room…numerous reports of a lackluster leadership skills, poor work ethic, ect….a BUST, OF COURSE NOT!!!.. worthy of being the # 3 pick….???…a change of address, with the right staff will do him a world of good!!
Who lost the locker room?
Ask Kenny Britt (or his towel) who paid $5k to call him the “franchise quarterback”: http://ten.247sports.com/Board/28/Britt-Salutes-VY-464429/1
Ask CJ: http://blogs.tennessean.com/titans/2011/04/14/chris-johnson-thinks-vince-young-could-be-back/
Ask Bo Scaife: "I know his teammates definitely want him here," Scaife said. "The more I think about that, I guess the locker room might be divided up. But I know all the guys on my side [the offense], we all love VY."
VY was the leader of that offense.
To anyone who believes that 2010 was too small of a sample, combine ‘09 and ’10 and you’ll still find a QB who’s made a remarkable turnaround passing wise.
Combine ‘09 and ’10 with the video and you’ll see that last year was no fluke. Not many are willing to watch the whole hour+, but those who do all end up surprised that Vince isn’t the QB they’ve been told he was. He can make reads and throw accurate balls where only his receivers can make plays.
Some team’s going to get a steal and a fired up VY. Victory begins and ends with VY.
by bevosbackside on May 11, 2011 7:56 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
well, it's obvious that...
Britt, Johnson and Scaife were poorly informed about “numerous reports of a lackluster leadership skills, poor work ethic, ect….”
Snark aside though, narrative is a powerful force. It allows for shallow thinking to pass as “analysis” for Randy Cross and his ilk. The pro football graveyard is littered with the bones of high draft pick QB busts, but the name that springs to Cross’ mind along with Leaf is not, say, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, JaMarcus Russell, and so on, but a guy with a winning percentage in the league and two Pro Bowls under his belt… That’s not just shallow thinking, that’s insanely stupid. But it fits the narrative that Fisher was so good at getting out there.
Narrative also seems to make people who are highly paid for their judgment to throw the high draft pick dice on quarterbacks with marginal chances to be good, while ignoring someone who by any objective standard has proven to be at least good, with a high probability of more. Time will tell, but I’d be shocked if several more piles of bones are added to that QB bust graveyard from this year’s first round.
The one thing in Vince’s favor is that all he needs is one team to take a chance on him (and remember, just one year ago the narrative for Vick was that one team had made a really bad choice by taking that chance on him…). And then he can change the story’s ending.
Britt, CJ, and Scaife
should have checked with the Nashville press to see what was happening inside the locker room.
by bevosbackside on May 11, 2011 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm 58
and I don’t watch the Pro’s anymore, unless I know that “The” VY Game is on.
The only player that puts me on the edge of my seat everytime, and I mean everytimne he takes a snap. Hope the young man finds a team that knows how to use him.
"Nobody leaves this field until we beat the hell out of them".................... L.J."Louis"Jordan in 1913 before kickoff of the Texas/ou game.
VY can throw
I haven’t had time to read all posts so this may have been covered but, Nathan said: “the Titans had to rely on their rather phenomenal defense”. So why did that phenomenal defense NOT perform as well when VY was NOT in the game? Your assertion that one player can’t take over a game at the NFL level doesn’t seem to hold water. What VY has shown is that a great leader can elevate the performances of the entire team regardless of the level of play.
Lastly, I don’t know how you can’t quite grasp that it is beneficial to have a coach that supports you and knows how to utilize your talents. Not many QBs will reach their potential when their coach actually tries to undermine them. Perhaps we can at least agree on that.
by Cause.I.said.so on May 11, 2011 11:19 AM CDT reply actions
The Titans D wasn't even that good
except for ‘07 and ’08 (lights out in ’08). Every other year of the Vince era (Titans/Oilers all time leader in win %) they’ve been average to terrible. Make that turribal even.
Anyone making the Titans great D argument isn’t paying attention.
Your logic is sound, but wouldn’t be needed if the “VY=JaMarcus” crowd paid attention to facts.
by bevosbackside on May 11, 2011 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Guys never throught I read this Fisher: Vince Young can win in the NFL
It’s safe to say former Titans coach Jeff Fisher knows Vince Young — the player and the person — as well as anyone, having mentored the former No. 3 overall pick during all five of his seasons in Tenn.While we don’t know yet where Young will play next season — other than it won’t be in Tennessee — Fisher told NFL Network he believes his former starter can be successful in the NFL.
“Vince has won a lot of games; he’s led teams to the playoffs before,” Fisher said. “I believe he can (win in the NFL). It’s just a matter of him finding a place that suits him and be in the right place and work hard. But he certainly has that ability.”
http://blogs.nfl.com/2011/05/10/fisher-vince-young-can-win-in-the-nfl/
THIS IS FUNNY CAN YOU BELEIVE,
by Alway Learning on May 11, 2011 11:37 AM CDT reply actions
that sounds a whole lot like...
a guy hedging his bets.
If Vince goes to a team that supports him and blows up, rather than have to face the fact that the biggest difference is the “supports him” part, Fisher wants to be able to point to this and say he knew all along that Vince had it in him…
Or to be more charitable, maybe Fisher’s doing a little soul-searching of his own and he knows he didn’t handle things all that well. Hey, it could happen…
some links you may like
Vince Young, Adrian Peterson Work Out In Houston
http://www.click2houston.com/sports/27845446/detail.html
Fisher’s playing cruel game with Young
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/jeff-fisher-vince-young-tennessee-titans-cruel-game-112910
What’s worse for Chris Johnson, no Jeff Fisher or no Vince Young…or Javon Ringer?
http://fantasyfootballmetrics.com/Player_News/Content/Draft_2011_Whats%20worse%20for%20CJ_020211).htm
by Alway Learning on May 11, 2011 12:46 PM CDT reply actions
To anyone who denies Fisher
created a truly screwed up situation and that his suckitude worked against Vince:
Had Marino ended up on the 49ers instead of Montana/Young, what would Marino’s legacy be?
Had Brady ended up on the Raiders, what would his legacy be?
Coaching matters.
you're right that situation is vastly underrated...
but I think Marino would have been great in the 49ers offense. Probably even better than Montana, since all the things that Montana did well Marino probably did even better, and there’d be the plus of arm strength which would have allowed Walsh to actually incorporate the deep outs they never bothered throwing with Montana.
If Montana had ended up with the Dolphins however, the things he was so very good at would have been misused, and everyone would have concentrated on his inability to throw a 15-20 yard out on a rope. He was very fortunate to end up on the one team that cared more about the preternatural accuracy and rhythm than sheer arm strength.
Which all still applies as far as Vince is concerned. If he can go to a coach/team that values his considerable gifts, instead of knocking him because he doesn’t fit a certain ‘image’ of what a QB should look like, he’ll be great. If he goes to a place that undermines him at every turn and misuses him egregiously…. well, he’ll only win about 60% of his games, if history is any indication…
This needed to be written.
I will henceforce link people to this any time I come across someone who spouts that nonsense. This is a great thing to have. I thought I was the only one out there flabbergasted at such drastic misconceptions, battling the Vince-haters like Neo vs. the agents.
"Hey, don't y'all think that's beautiful right there? That crystal is SO beautiful. And it's coming home to Texas." - Vince Young
Attempting to qualify VY's effect on a team using any other metric than W/L is a fallacy.
The defense has to change when hes playing. They have to, and that effected everyone. Even if he isn’t getting QB rating numbers, hes affecting the game. QB rating is effective only if your QB is of the Payton Manning mold, traditional drop back passer.
Lets see Chris Johnson get 2000+ yards without VY in the backfield, my guess is he never gets close to it again.
by BoddickerIsClutch on May 12, 2011 11:15 AM CDT reply actions
Gold Bullion
No signing comes without risk. Seeing how the Shanahan’s treated McNabb last season makes me nervous for how Young could be treated here too. But I don’t need to tell you guys about the ties Kyle has with Vince, going back to the University of Texas. These bonds mean something. Kyle knows what Vince can do under pressure. For all of the "Vince Can’t Handle The Pressure In DC" talk, people need to understand the pressure that exists for the starting quarterback of the Texas Longhorns. There are just as many, if not more Longhorn fans than Redskin fans around the country and the world. UT football transcends the massive state and consumes both of its Top 10 media markets. There are Spanish Language broadcasts of Texas games throughout Mexico. Royal Texas Memorial stadium seats well over 100,000 rabid fans. This August, a new ESPN network will kick off – The Longhorn Network. Twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week—nothing but University of Texas sports, and the cornerstone of the programming is football.
Vince knows pressure. Vince thrives under extreme pressure and even bigger expectations. He just needs a team that isn’t at war with itself, and which puts winning over ego. If that exists in Washington, and I hope it does, every Redskins fan should look forward with great anticipation and enthusiasm to the day Vince Young signs on the dotted line."
- follow me @ http:/twitter.com/TXStampede
I really think the Shanahan offence could be good for Vince
I like the idea of VY running a lot of bootlegs.
Those Jake Plummer bootlegs and rollouts were pretty effective
Plummer actually looked better throwing on a rollout than any other time.
Jonathan Baldwin: worst Chief since Larry Johnson
by burntorangehorn on May 12, 2011 9:04 PM CDT up reply actions
My thoughts exactly
+1 and thank you for writing this. The VY haters are incredibly ignorant and uninformed.
sorry PB
And this isnt’ just the rant of a fanboy.
“Fanboy” is exactly how this post comes off, especially with your castigation of Jeff Fisher.
While I don’t agree with people who compare Young to Russell as far as being a bust goes, Young is a bust in the sense that he was supposed to be able to change the game because of his athleticism, and that hasn’t happened. The best you can say for him is he is a poor man’s Michael Vick pre-prison. Young’s failures in Tennessee can be attributed directly to Young. Blaming Fisher, a man who spent 16 years as a head coach in the NFL, for Young’s failures is ludicrous. Fisher coached Steve McNair, guiding him and the Titans to a Super Bowl appearance, and two AFC championship games, so it isn’t like Fisher has some prejudice against mobile QBs. The question here really should be, if Fisher was able to succeed with McNair, why wasn’t Young able to succeed with Fisher?
When you quit on your team and the season because you can’t handle the booing of fans in the first game of the year, as Young did in 2008, you can’t blame that player’s failures on the head coach.
If I was going to compare Young to anyone, it would be Rick Mirer, someone who showed promise early (Mirer was a Rookie of the Year) but struggled once his weaknesses were exposed,
wow...
this may be the funniest/stupidest thing you ever wrote… and it’s not like you haven’t set that bar pretty high…
Rick Mirer! That’s comedy gold, gut.
can you name another mobile QB who was drafted in the first three picks of the draft who won Rookie of the Year
and later was considered a bust?
if you mean other than Mirer...
then no, nobody springs to mind.
The “later was considered a bust” would preclude Vince from the list, unless you only include idiots doing the considering - by any rational standards, his career so far cannot be called a “bust” unless you’re including every other quarterback in NFL history who has a winning percentage worse than 60% and fewer than two Pro Bowl appearances. And whose passing stats have not improved every year of his career.
I guess in your defense that would include every single Aggie quarterback that ever lived…….
a Pro Bowl appearance where you played
only because two guys in front of you were injured or didn’t want to play isn’t really something to brag about
I know Young was the third option his rookie year, was he ever the first choice at QB in the pro bowl, or always an alternate? Being an alternate isn’t something to trumpet, nor does it disprove him being a bust.
The only people who don’t think Young is a bust are texas fanboys, and the opinion of that group is slightly biased.
I'd be really interested in hearing...
your complete list of “busts”…
Since only ‘first choice’ Pro Bowl appearances are any indication of “non-busthood”, and winning percentages far in excess of one’s team’s norm are not. Improving one’s passing stats every year certainly don’t signify improvement, and being among the league leaders as Vince was prior to his injury are, I suppose, signs for concern, if not outright evidence of a “bust”…
Basically, it seems that you believe the one great criterion for a player NOT being a “bust” is good team PR.
you keep bringing up passing stats and improvement
what were Vince’s numbers in 2007, 2008, and 2009?
Beergut
2009?
In 2009 VY took a team that was 0-6 and went 8-2 and saved Titians season. Beergut stop drinking so much beer and research more on VY before you pose these question.
by Alway Learning on May 16, 2011 7:09 AM CDT up reply actions
re: "what were Vince’s numbers in 2007, 2008, and 2009?"
Answer #1 – Better every season.
Answer #2 – Better than every other quarterback on your list of “busts”
…which, by the way, we’re still waiting to see.
The answer is pretty simple
Fisher didn’t want VY and Fisher certainly did not want him to succeed. Fisher sabotaged VY every chance he got, and he even did it to the detriment of the entire team. Fisher, not VY, cost that team lots of W’s. Jeff Fisher is an arrogant a hole. VY’s wants to win, and when you play for a HC that would rather lose than play you that is pretty damn pathetic.
Fisher is like the dirty cop on the take in all the lame police shows. Just looking at him makes me gag.
run Bevo run lives in the Tower with Mack and Bevo because of his Awesomeness!! If you need a tip on where someone might go in the draft you might check with him because he's not bad at that either.
Beergut a great post read it in full check the link
This is the first official "guest post" ever I’ve ever published.
I’m doing so not because I endorse every single word herein—which I don’t, though I agree with most of it—but because it’s well-written, informed, thought-provoking, impassioned, and totally unsolicited. It’s also in direct conflict with popular opinion among Redskins fans and Burgundy Nation, so I believe it’s good for you.
And this is my blog, so I demand that you digest it.
The author is Bill, a lifelong Oilers/Titans fan and season ticket-holder, who relocated to DC a few years ago for work and now describes himself (for some reason) as an "evolving" Redskins fan. I’ll concede that an adult man who has recently gravitated toward the Redskins may be suspect in his cognitive abilities. But his writing says otherwise.
Indulge me by reading Bill’s perspective…
http://burgundyblog.com/post/5367586151/vince
by Alway Learning on May 15, 2011 7:14 AM CDT up reply actions
ALearning
I know it wasn’t directed to me, but that is a great post and I also agree with Bill’s perspective. The fact that it was stupid for Fisher to sabotage VY, doesn’t mean he didn’t do it. The facts are clearly that he did. How their relationship didn’t end with VY beating the crap out of Fisher is actually a testament to VY. I know I couldn’t have left Fisher standing wtih the shit he did.
The last interview I saw with Fisher where he kept trying to paint it as a dispute between “VY vs. the entire team” rather than a “Fisher vs. VY” feud was so self-indulgent. Fisher sat there like he was above any sort of blame in the ordeal and said shit like "Vince quit on his team, not me…. etc. Many of the players backed VY, but they couldn’t go public for fear of the wrath of their HC.
run Bevo run lives in the Tower with Mack and Bevo because of his Awesomeness!! If you need a tip on where someone might go in the draft you might check with him because he's not bad at that either.
If Fisher was trying to sabotage Young
please explain why Young quit on his team in the first game of the season after being booed by fans? This was a season where Collins led the Titans to a 13-3 record, but somehow Fisher is the problem?
Wrangler this was for everyone
You know I was hoping VY would have not have gone to the titans after the way they treated Steve McNair. Fisher is not great coach and the Nashville fans wanted Jay Cutler.
this link is old but give some more of what was going on Nashville
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/231043-vince-young-reports-of-his-career-demise-have-been-greatly-exaggerated
Fisher used Jim Wyatt to write article on VY check out his articles.
http://www.tennessean.com/section/SPORTS01
by Alway Learning on May 15, 2011 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Beergut
Did you read the post Bill talk about that .
Here what VY says
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU6KNV67DDs&feature=related
Vince needs to carry a....
…clipboard for a couple of years. And he should do it with a smile on his face.
--- All roads to the Big-XII Championship lead through OU/RRS. It's not just another game! We're all about championships here. ---
Need a QB? Dial up Vince Young
Vince Young turns 28 today, the age when many good quarterbacks start kicking their career into a new gear. But Young’s career doesn’t need a new gear. It needs a massive overhaul in the eyes of most “pundits,” observers and analysts.
Here’s our question: why?
As in, why would any team needing a quarterback not seek a player with the following resume:
•Former No. 3 overall pick after brilliant college career
•Career 63.8 winning percentage as an NFL starter
•Coming off seasons in which he went 12-6 as a starter; the other guys who started for Tennessee went 2-12
•Competitive, above-average passer rating of 84.9 from 2008-10
•NFL’s second best running quarterback, and still in his athletic prime
•Two-time Pro Bowler
•Offensive Rookie of the Year in 2006
And yet, when ESPN’s Adam Schefter was making his rounds on TV and the web Monday morning, it was to report that Young might consider a backup job in Philadelphia.
The NFL silly season never seemed sillier.
In a league where it’s been proven time and time again that a change of scenery can absolutely change a talented QB’s career on a dime, the fact that Young could struggle to find work is mind-boggling.
Jim Plunkett, Rich Gannon, Drew Brees, Fran Tarkenton, Steve Young, Vinny Testaverde – all were guys who showed flashes early in their careers but didn’t emerge as great ones until they found the right situation.
Considering that Vince Young has only had one situation thus far – five years in Tennessee, for one coach and one owner – you’d think teams would line up to give him a second shot.
Were his problems high-profile and troubling? Sure they were. Was his play perfect? No.
But you need a quarterback to win in this league, and Young has proven he can win in the NFL. Unlike Donovan McNabb, whose upside has disappeared, and Kevin Kolb, who’s still proven nothing, Young has demonstrated that he has what it takes to play QB in the NFL.
It’s not as if he’s burned bridges league-wide – he’s simply burned them in Tennessee.
TO READ THE FULL ARTICLE
http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=3754
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